Discussion on Indian Special Forces

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Aug 2008 11:17

Austin wrote:rkhanna , I find it strange that these assault unit have protection almost every where at least the most critical parts are covered , except the head , you have the head totally exposed , at least a headgear would cover most part of it and perhaps on a bad day , will help them live and fight for another day.

Part of it has to do with context and force display. You have PMs and other ministers not wearing helmets and so for public show the SPG guarding them also need to do similar. It's like the US Secret Service force who are just dressed in suits (without helmets) but have body armor and weaponry hidden under. But in Indian context with heightened terrorist alert, it was probably important for the SPGs to show off their weaponry to assure the public/media/VVIPs. However, a helmet would have been a bit too much, IMO. I'm sure they have helmets in their lockers to be used with they have to go in for other situations such as hostage rescue, etc.

If you look at the British Army, they have a policy of initially going in with Helmets in cities when the violence/fighting is still going on. But once it has ceased, they switch to berets during patrolling the streets to show that it is safer and also seem more approachable to the public. A lot of it has to do with psychological perceptions - balance between display and assurance.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 24 Aug 2008 12:34

I thought Austin saar was referring to the MARCOS/Army Ghataks pics posted by rkhanna not the SPG pics.

Light weight helmets and all still exist but haven't seen them in widespread SF in seaborne assaults. Probably volume is still an issue plus a helmet is apt to fill up with water during insertion by sea (?!). These guys are top-notch pros....if they deem it necessary to don helmets they will...they sure have access to them all right.

OTOH SEAL units operating on land in Iraq wear helmets, they essentially wear the same gear as the regular troops (probably to blend in). Also have seen SF in J&K (including during Kargil operations) wear helmets just like other troops.

These SPG guys looks way too scary than any secret service guy I have ever seen (including their counter assault teams). One frowning look from that 'mithun-da' look alike is enough for me to go sit in a corner

srai wrote:
Austin wrote:rkhanna , I find it strange that these assault unit have protection almost every where at least the most critical parts are covered , except the head , you have the head totally exposed , at least a headgear would cover most part of it and perhaps on a bad day , will help them live and fight for another day.
Part of it has to do with context and force display. You have PMs and other ministers not wearing helmets and so for public show the SPG guarding them also need to do similar. It's like the US Secret Service force who are just dressed in suits (without helmets) but have body armor and weaponry hidden under. But in Indian context with heightened terrorist alert, it was probably important for the SPGs to show off their weaponry to assure the public/media/VVIPs. However, a helmet would have been a bit too much, IMO. I'm sure they have helmets in their lockers to be used with they have to go in for other situations such as hostage rescue, etc.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 24 Aug 2008 13:29

I think it is more practical for a unit engaged in protection duties of very high profile individuals to be light and very mobile. A helmet means added weight on the head, more so if it is going to be any protective value. They more than anyone else know that they are not the first target, and if they get hit in the head, it is full stop for the person involved anyways, but in the meanwhile why loose the mobility and the flexibility.

This group is the middle layer of vip protection which is closest to the general public. They are supposed to look menacing, out in the open, not hiding behind cover. Immense psy-ops value. The inner circle are the suited-booted types who will be with the protectee as he/she meets other dignitaries. The third layer I suppose is in the crowd, who will target suspicious, nervous individuals who are identfied by an "overseer".

Another thing I've always wondered is about the comm gear on these guys. It must be highly jam resistant and encrypted.

SPG in india is known to use decoy vehicles and cavalcades, (I once encountered one on my official bus, after the bus driver accidentally crossed the path of one of those silver safari ones.) Very impressive sight indeed, they were all in a tight ring with one in the center and the others surrounding it, and doing a good 60-70 kmph maintaining their circle still.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 24 Aug 2008 13:48

Raja Bose wrote: One frowning look from that 'mithun-da' look alike is enough for me to go sit in a corner

..

Pu$$y ....

Regards,
Ashish

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 24 Aug 2008 14:18

Rahul M wrote:what is the sanskrit motto on the NSG insignia ??
link
can't read it.

Sahas kaha vikalpa. I am not sure about vikalpa but it is vi"something"pa.
Meaning "whats the alternative to bravery/courage."
quite sure about the first two

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Aug 2008 15:24

thanks K Mehta.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Aug 2008 00:00

Thanks to Ankit in the Misc Pics thread - From India Today

An SPG trooper with a FN 2000 assault rifle. The weapon is a 'bullpup' configuration-the magazine is in the stock-and made of special lightweight polymers. Photo: Sipra Das (India Today)

A member of the SPG's new counter-assault force in standard gear-ballistic vest with a rifle plate capable of withstanding fire from AK-47 bullets, combat knee pads, Kevlar non skid, heat and cut-resistant gloves. Weapons include the new FN Herstal FN 2000 Tactical Assault Rifle and FN's new 'Five Seven' Pistol strapped to his right thigh. The pistol fires a special 5.7 mm round capable of piercing body armor. This is the first time these weapons are being fielded in India. Photo: Sipra Das (India Today)

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 25 Aug 2008 00:59

They look impressive. BUt I was wondering about thier dress. White pants?
I've never seen anything like that in armed forces.

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 25 Aug 2008 02:00

jamwal
wrote
>I've never seen anything like that in armed forces.
I think there is a reason ...How will you distinguish between your guys and other guys quickly

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 25 Aug 2008 02:34

Brown pants or the Mufti on the terrorists. With the color becoming browner by the minute.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 25 Aug 2008 06:21

Why a full blown assault rifle though???

Its compact ... Thats a huge plus .... But being an assault rifle, its heavy ..... Why would a MP5s not do the trick?? Or something lighter ...

What kind of role does this group have??

Regards,
Ashish.

PS: Trivia: FN2000 is also used by the PAF - Special Service Wing (SSW)\\.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Aug 2008 09:39

misraji, I'm not an expert but I'll try all the same. there are three points that decide the gun in such cases:
range, accuracy and stopping power.
mp-5 type guns are for CQBs, they don't have the range to be effective over long open spaces.aiming SMGs over long distances is also not easy because of their structure.
INSAS has the range and accuracy but not the stopping power(5.56mm)
the Ak-47 has both range and stopping power but not accuracy at long ranges. this gun is a compromise to achieve a degree of all three qualities.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2008 09:42

btw Brig Singh of paraSF became a major general sometime in 2006 and is
now in some other div apparently. hopefully as more paraSF/marcos types
move up the management ladder, they will ensure that stuff like SOAR, CSAR,
EC130 type gunships and recce units get the funding.

loved that pic of him trying out the M4 in US during some visit.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 25 Aug 2008 10:05

Rahul M wrote:misraji, I'm not an expert but I'll try all the same. there are three points that decide the gun in such cases:
range, accuracy and stopping power.
mp-5 type guns are for CQBs, they don't have the range to be effective over long open spaces.aiming SMGs over long distances is also not easy because of their structure.
INSAS has the range and accuracy but not the stopping power(5.56mm)
the Ak-47 has both range and stopping power but not accuracy at long ranges. this gun is a compromise to achieve a degree of all three qualities.

Thanks Rahul. That is precisely the point that I am trying to make.

Why would they have a need for long range firepower?? Why aren't CQB weapons sufficient for them ??

Hmmm ... "Counter Assault Group" right?? ... Could this be the group to deal with Akshardham type situations??

And if they are provided with transport, Kandahar IC-814 situations could be dealt with, I wonder?? We are buying C-130Js for special-ops.

Regards,
Ashish.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Aug 2008 11:03

Why would they have a need for long range firepower?? Why aren't CQB weapons sufficient for them ??

No. just look at the place the SPG dude is standing in, an attack can come from any direction and from a long distance away.
The mandate of SPG is protection of the protectee in an outdoors environment.
here the attack can come from a sniper or even a scenario where a # of ak-47 toting gunmen fire indiscriminately in a drive by. the later is a scenario the SPG has been fearing for some time as per DDM. in all these you need a gun with good stopping power at long distances.
another important point I forgot to mention, the gun needs to have some amount of body-armour piercing ability, MP-5 would fail miserably on all counts.
SMGs are good for battle in confined spaces, in rooms inside living quarters etc where fast movement of the gun-hand is at a premium. which is why you have SMGs which can be used with one hand. they are not good enough even at moderate distances.
why do you think IA uses ak-47 even in urban environments in J&K ?

Hmmm ... "Counter Assault Group" right?? ... Could this be the group to deal with Akshardham type situations??

And if they are provided with transport, Kandahar IC-814 situations could be dealt with, I wonder?? We are buying C-130Js for special-ops.

akshardham was done by SAG of the NSG with support/cover fire from SRG of the NSG.
This is SPG.
IC-814 type scenario (any hostage rescue/CT) is NSG's job but I'm not sure if their job definition allows them to operate overseas. I know that sounds stupid but w/o official sanction to do the same, legally they could be treated as mercenaries.
In kandahar, only way to deploy them w/o legal hassles would have been to consider them as IA men which is of course their parent service.

added later: C-130j's are primarily for IA commandos and may also cater to the Garuds, it is a full fledged wartime special force with the usual objectives viz. sabotage, SEAD, destruction of vital enemy infrastructures like bridges etc, capture of enemy air bases, hit and run operations behind enemy lines etc. It's under the IA and MoD.
NSG is a pure CT unit under the MHA, it's usually commanded by an IPS of DG rank.
tho' it's members come from both military and paramil, it is legally a specialist law enforcement force.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 25 Aug 2008 11:44

Fair point, Rahul. But "Counter Assault" and "Special Protection" do not seem to go hand in hand.

Unless SPG is broken up into groups where one group takes a defensive stance and protects the VIP and the CAG then hunts down the terrorist.

Wrt to Mp5, I had quoted Mp5 just as an example of a lighter weapon that I had in mind.

Anyway, points well taken. Thanks.

Regards,
Ashish.

PS: Good article on NSG: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/India/NSG.htm

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Aug 2008 11:50

the one we are seeing is probably the newer avatar of the counter sniper unit. there are a couple of their pics in older pages of this or the misc. images thread.
protection of a top VIP is done by many layers of forces drawn from more than one service and they all use different weapons according to the requirement. IIRC ITBP and Delhi Police too have a part in the PM's security.

PS: Good article on NSG: http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/India/NSG.htm

I hope you have read the last paragraph !!

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 25 Aug 2008 11:56

Oh man ... That last para felt so natural that I did not even give it a second glance. I really should call it a night.

Regards,
Ashish.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Aug 2008 14:08

About Helmets.

Alot of that comes down the local Operating Culture and then to the SOP of the country. US SF when in training will wear Helmets but most likely not on real ops. Helmets slow you down. Delta does have those "Hockey" Style helmets which provide limited ballistic capability. The SAS almost never goes into operations with Helmets. the Germans almost ALWAYS go into battle wearing helmets (KSK). Army delta can be seen with their helmets, SEALS rarely wear helmets (even in A-Stan)

From the Indian Perspective culturally we have horrible helmets both Bulky and heavy. So SF and Light Infantry troops prefer not to wear them. Be more Efficient. Troops in India feel that they can be more combat efficient without a helmet. However some soldiers still wear helmets (feeling of security). So in India alot of it comes down to personel choice. We need way more research into Helmet Protection Tech. Only now are PASGT helmets finding their way into the Forces while they are going out of most of the First World Forces.

Anyways here is a pic of a SEAL in A-Stan. No Helmet

U.S. Navy SEAL team member provides cover for his teammates while advancing on a suspected location of al Qaida and Taliban forces

PICS on the Varied SF units (Including HRT type units)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... hp?t=82436

Almost No helmets

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Aug 2008 14:13

Why would they have a need for long range firepower?? Why aren't CQB weapons sufficient for them ??

Also an Assault rifle (like the FN-2000) comes in handy when your security ring is getting breached by Fast moving Vehicles.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Aug 2008 14:42

For Close quarters, they will probably use hand guns inside the blazer etc. Sometimes they like to attach the weights to the blazer side so that they can get access to the gun quickly(per Israeli's). The officer will usually be thin, due to their faster reaction speeds. The aim is to shoot to kill before the enemy fires their weapon. They don't want to handle the enemy physically. This is what a Qatari royal guard told me(saw him on tv a couple of months back guarding the King!).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2008 19:09

NSG is equivalent to the FBI hostage rescue unit + some of the better SWAT + some of the US secret service protection detail for non-VVIPs.

Its actually time to spin out the guard details of NSG into a separate home ministry force and
leave behind a elite core of 300 people tasked with CT/hostage rescue only and attached to
the army special forces HQ.

its time for NSG == GSG9

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Aug 2008 19:18

singha, which part of NSG is employed in guard duty ? NSG was raised on the lines of GSG-9, btw.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 Aug 2008 21:25

singha, which part of NSG is employed in guard duty ? NSG was raised on the lines of GSG-9, btw.

The NSG is divided into the SAG and the SRG. Totaling around 7000 men. The SAG are drawn from the Army and are the Assaulters (CT/HRT) of the Unit. They however number only around 200-300. The Rest are distributed amongst the SRG . The SRG are drawn from IPS and other paramilitary units and their duties include Perimeter security , Intelligence , Bomb Disposal, forsenics and Close protection of VVIPs (Z category).

Thus you can see the drain on the NSG's resources away from its primary Task of CT/HRT. That is the main area where they have moved further away from the GSG-9 even though that is what they were founded on.

IMO. You retain a limited number of SRG for the Following Tasks (Intel , Bomb Disposal, Perimeter Security) Disband the rest or transfer them to State Police units and let the states fund them. With the Balance money improve Training/Infrastructure/Equipment of the NSG AND give them a dedicated AirWing. Also As somebody said Integrate them into Army SF HQ kind of like a Joint MoD , Home Ministry TaskForce underwhich both the NSG and SFF should fall under.

The More Ideal ofcourse would be a Joint SpecOps command integrating ALL SF Units under one roof and give them their own budget allocation. But that decision has already been thrown out the door.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Aug 2008 21:42

rkhanna, of course I know about SAG and SRG composition and all that. but are you sure that SRG is being used for the VVIP protection roles ?? that is pure SPG role.
rest of the roles I would well expect for a self contained CT/HR force. bomb disposal, intel, may be even negotiators and psychologists are specialist niches from a CT POV and quite necessary too if you want to cover all aspects of an ops. having them in house isn't such a bad idea, IMHO. AFAIK, russian CT forces operate in such groups.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2008 22:33

SPG is only given to PM, President and maybe special cases like yuvraj, rajmata and so on.
this is one category thats Z+. the Z-cat types like mayawati, central ministers , state level
people in insurgency hit states get NSG drawn from the huge protection group. in recent yrs
many state police have formed similar black dressed units by sending their men to NSG center.
Assam has black panthers - AK56 rifles and black bandanas for the most part. perfectly adequate for VIP security and to tackle 90% of the incidents.

the current NSG is just too huge and unwieldy to be a elite like GSG9. only way thats going
to happen is if the 300-500 people in assault group get pulled out and attached to the army
SF regimental HQ.

the remainder can still be called NSG and operate as is.

hooking up with the army guarantees them better air and heli lift for sure. home ministry
has direct control only on BSF (& maybe VVIP planes). they also get x-train on a daily
basis with the army, garuds and navy commandos...and the benefit of wider selection
of weapons like shipon rockets and CGustaf rifles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Aug 2008 22:38

afair, Delta force started as a replacement to ad-hoc US army CT force known
as HRU - hasty response unit. trained by SAS initially.

but the lack of high grade domestic terror in the US
( that couldnt be handled by local SWAT ) and the reluctance of
foreign govts to let US SF operate on their soil in 70s and 80s
saw the Delta branch out into a more military oriented role and thats
what they are today.

Delta is considered the best of best among the vast assortment of US SF
units for a good reason - they are the smallest probably and the most
secretive. green berets are sent to train overseas military and 'freedom
fighters'. SEALS have a more publicity profile. but delta only gets the
most difficult and 'core assignments' like roping in to capture the somali
warlord from his den.

our politicians think manpower is everything, just recruit more and more
bodies like the mindless IT managers do. but SF is all about smallness
and precision. the best engineers are 10x more productive than the avg
studies show.

let the army have its day for now - atleast give them proper brief and
air assets for a SOCOM under Sena Bhavan's thumb.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Aug 2008 00:28

rkhanna, of course I know about SAG and SRG composition and all that. but are you sure that SRG is being used for the VVIP protection roles ?? that is pure SPG role.

Yes the SRG is for the other politicos. The SPG works only for the PM and his Family and Ex PMs for a certain period of time. Its in their charter

The SPG Act 1988

An Act to provide for the constitution and regulation of an armed force of the Union for providing proximate security to the Prime Minister of India and * former Prime Minister of India and members of their immediate families and for matters connected therewith.

http://spg.nic.in/spgact.htm

@ Singha

WRT .. SFOD-D "Delta Force"

The Unit was formed along the lines of the SAS (i.e Military unit) right from the word Go. They were the United States Army's Counter Terrorism unit and a counter part to the US Navy's Development Group (DevGru) also known as Seal Team 6 (though its not part of the Seal Teams) .

Its the FBI HRT and other local SWAT , HomeLand Security SWAT units that are responsible for domestic counter terrorism.

Recruits come from Army SF, Rangers and 82nd Airborne. Their role is completely paramilitary in nature and their original charter is for Preemtive CT operations (black) outside America's borders eventhough they have been deployed within the ContUS in the past. They have also been used for very Specific and Strategic Tasks during times of war (as seen in the Invasion of Panama , Grenada and Iraq/Astan)

Delta Force and DevGru fall under JSOC which is the United States militaries Counter Terrorism Command and not the direct Perview of SOCCOM. They also form a part of the Asymetric Warfare Group (AWG). Whose job is to develop new methods to fight in a highly evolving battlefield. JSOC also does the covert side of American SpecOps business while SOCCOM are more the "Conventional" SpecOps units.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Aug 2008 00:37

thanks for the clarification fellows.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 26 Aug 2008 05:06

Regarding the absence of helmets by assault teams attached to proximate-security (SPG or SS), it could be for easy identification by friendly snipers on rooftops. In particular, the face profile and ears of the operatives in a crowd scene like what we see around political rallies in India. What if a baddy wore a similar helmet deep inside a crowd? Will you pop off at all helmets in sight.... etc. Once a "gunfire!" bark goes out through the earpieces, I assume everyone will be scanning for a target. Also interesting is their shoe. Flexible sole etc. Great for a long sprint over slippery places.

SRG was bulked up to the massive size it is when compared to GSG-9 because Col Dutta, the smart guy he is, must have known that every politico would want this new version of praetorian guards standing outside the palace with spears. Well, that is until the good old bean counters at CAG must have started asking questions on "budget", "target value" etc. SAG personal is said to be always rotated. So I dont think they get stagnant.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 26 Aug 2008 05:30

rkhanna wrote:
rkhanna, of course I know about SAG and SRG composition and all that. but are you sure that SRG is being used for the VVIP protection roles ?? that is pure SPG role.
Yes the SRG is for the other politicos. The SPG works only for the PM and his Family and Ex PMs for a certain period of time. Its in their charter

The SPG Act 1988

An Act to provide for the constitution and regulation of an armed force of the Union for providing proximate security to the Prime Minister of India and * former Prime Minister of India and members of their immediate families and for matters connected therewith.
http://spg.nic.in/spgact.htm

@ Singha

WRT .. SFOD-D "Delta Force"

The Unit was formed along the lines of the SAS (i.e Military unit) right from the word Go. They were the United States Army's Counter Terrorism unit and a counter part to the US Navy's Development Group (DevGru) also known as Seal Team 6 (though its not part of the Seal Teams) .

Its the FBI HRT and other local SWAT , HomeLand Security SWAT units that are responsible for domestic counter terrorism.

Recruits come from Army SF, Rangers and 82nd Airborne. Their role is completely paramilitary in nature and their original charter is for Preemtive CT operations (black) outside America's borders eventhough they have been deployed within the ContUS in the past. They have also been used for very Specific and Strategic Tasks during times of war (as seen in the Invasion of Panama , Grenada and Iraq/Astan)

Delta Force and DevGru fall under JSOC which is the United States militaries Counter Terrorism Command and not the direct Perview of SOCCOM. They also form a part of the Asymetric Warfare Group (AWG). Whose job is to develop new methods to fight in a highly evolving battlefield. JSOC also does the covert side of American SpecOps business while SOCCOM are more the "Conventional" SpecOps units.

Just as an add to that, my 1/2 paisa worth: SFOD-D has a highly trained hostage rescue component to their training where as army "green berets" and the other US army special forces unit 75th Ranger Regiment are purely a commando/ asymmetric warfare unit. Interestingly SFOD-D is never mentioned or called as a United States Army special forces unit.

just a ques apart from the NSG do any of the para-SF units have a HRT component to them. There is supposed to be the "special group" within the para-SF but I am not sure what their "role" is.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 08:01

Do we have anything equivalent to LRRPs (Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols). They come in mighty handy operating in POK/Tibet environment.

In Vietnam, Us found out that LRRPs were responsible for high casualty rate among VC, they had such a fierce-some reputation as to attract bounty on the LRRPs heads from VC once they became aware of them.

Equipped with good comm-links, specialized weapons, training they are quite a handful to deal with behind enemy lines. The LRRPs were trained not to get into fire-fights but set up ambushes for retreating VCs, scout for LZs and conduct observation patrols in enemy territory.

They developed quite an effective SOP for long-drawn conflicts.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2008 08:20

the SFF and the para-Cdo people are trained for it. we have seen pix on BR of some LRDG (long range desert group) kind of exercise.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Aug 2008 08:52

singha, have you seen the times now episodes ?? those are on youtube now.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Aug 2008 09:18

ssmitra wrote: just a ques apart from the NSG do any of the para-SF units have a HRT component to them. There is supposed to be the "special group" within the para-SF but I am not sure what their "role" is.

Special Group AFAIK is part of SFF. Uday Singh was a part of that unit. They were very actively involved in black ops in the valley and yellow sea atleast a few years back coz I would come across numerous obits for Special Group members with very vaguely worded descriptions of the actions where they were matyred.

Singha wrote:NSG is equivalent to the FBI hostage rescue unit + some of the better SWAT + some of the US secret service protection detail for non-VVIPs.

Its actually time to spin out the guard details of NSG into a separate home ministry force and
leave behind a elite core of 300 people tasked with CT/hostage rescue only and attached to
the army special forces HQ.

its time for NSG == GSG9

I feel NSG is not equivalent to FBI HRT + Secret Service CT team + LA/NYPD SWAT. Their skill level and scope of operations they can undertake is much larger. Unlike these other 'civillian' units, NSG is a unique mix of military and civilians (dont know any other unit in the world which has this) and has the capability to operate in COIN ops and in war. SWAT is great for arresting drug lords and rescuing hostages from the gun wielding whacko but based on what I have seen their mandate or capability is not comparable to a unit like NSG.

Definitely agree that the SRG is pretty bloated (state level commandos are much better esp. if they are funded wholly by each neta's state and not the MHA).

rkhanna wrote:About Helmets.
Army delta can be seen with their helmets, SEALS rarely wear helmets (even in A-Stan)

Have seen footage of SEAL Teams wearing helmets in Iraqi urban operations....I guess it might depend on where they are operating also plus if they need to blend in with regular troops.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2008 09:50

GSG9 members are recruited from german police and if army they have to resign first.
but their training level is so high, a 3 member unit dressed in black from head to toe
came to a SWAT olympics in US and won every event by good margin. total shakinah.
but by law I think their mil ops are restricted to KSK only and GSG9 wont be in
afghanistan unless the german embassy were taken over by 30 screaming talibs.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Aug 2008 10:07

My two cents to the discussion:

NSG: We know it has two battalions of SAG, the 51st and 52nd. The NSG has a very high %age of men from the Para-SF battalions and last I knew, the CO was invariably from Para-SF background. So, invariably the Para-SF unit has operatives with HRT training but do they have dedicated sub-unit? I do not think so. The strength of each battalion SAG should be around 500-700 men which makes for around 1500 SAG operatives. 300 operatives in GIGN or GSG-9 may be okay for a country like France and Germany but given the complexity of situation in our case we definitely need the numbers. Remember, the NSG was raised post the Op Bluestar fiasco. I do not think the size of the formation has anything to do with their mobility.It has got more to do with control and co ordination rahter than size. As it is, this country does not clearly understand the concept of SF and their strategic utility.
Special Group: It is part of SFF but interestingly no Tibetans are part of this sub unit of SFF. It is manned only by Indians. The least heard of all formations in the IA. It is a specialist CI force and was infact the 1st such formation. Again has lot of Para-SF guys as volunteers to this unit.
Para-SF: Do we have dedicated LRRP/LRDP patrol kind of thing? We need to understand that LRRP/LRDP has got more to with employment philosophy and doctrine of using the SF. What does LRRP/LRDP require? Well trained and motivated men, we have them and specialized equipment which is comming now. But more important is the will/desire to employ your forces in such strategic and force multiplier way. THis country and it's security establishment (including IA) has yet to understand the concept of usage of SF and their strategic potential. We sure can take a leaf out of British way of using SAS from Malay to Broneo to Yemen and GW.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Aug 2008 14:57

Para-SF: Do we have dedicated LRRP/LRDP patrol kind of thing? We need to understand that LRRP/LRDP has got more to with employment philosophy and doctrine of using the SF. What does LRRP/LRDP require? Well trained and motivated men, we have them and specialized equipment which is comming now

But, the TimesNow episode on SF did show the para guys simulating a LRRP/LRDP in the Thar....So,maybe, we do have the capabilities for the same with a small sub-group handling it...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Aug 2008 15:48

Sum: If you look up the history of development of Para-SF in India, you'll see that initially the 3 original battalions were theatre specific tasked and accordingly located.
(a) 1 Para(SF) was in Nahan, near Poanta Sahib, tasked as Jungle Warfare specialists
(b) 9 Para(SF)- Udhampur, Mountain warfare
(c) 10 Para(SF)-Jodhpur, Desert Warfare (these giys btw carry the nick name of desert scorpions).

It is later that this distiction was dropped/scrapped. And as for the LRDP, in the same episode, the guys (10 Para SF) were using the Gypsy as their main stead, hardly a transport of choice for any self respecting SF unit, given a choice. And the sniper was with a Dragunov rifle.
So, yes, we have the men, eqp is/will come now but the problem is at higher command level at both IA and Def/Pol. establishment.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 17:07

What is the equivalent of MRE/C-Rations given out to troops on deployement ?

Also the Spec-ops guys, what do they carry for food ?