Pakistan forces watch -arms sales, operations, doctrine, etc
1. F-16 has many things going for it from PAF's view: (a) Familiarity with the older systems (b) Simpler logistics (c) Easy integration with advanced US weaponry (d) Backdoor supply lines through Arab countries (e) US mil aid usually comes with Buy-American clause. No other system you asked about can fulfill all five considerations.
2. Pakistani forces are quite Army-centric, redardless of other factors the Army must get its due. However Pakistani Armoured Corps today is a comparatively a shadow of itself from the 1960s. In that manner they are not "building", but rather preventing erosion.
3. Pakistani Navy is a scavenging/parasitic force: it does not aim to dominate the sea-lanes, but to opportunistically pick-off enemy warships and merchantmen when possible. For that role land-based bombers seem to be better suited for the overall character of the force.
4. I seriously doubt that Pakistani shipbuilding industry is advanced enough to assemble the German Sub under question: the U-214. But if they want to try and fail miserably, it will be fun watching.
2. Pakistani forces are quite Army-centric, redardless of other factors the Army must get its due. However Pakistani Armoured Corps today is a comparatively a shadow of itself from the 1960s. In that manner they are not "building", but rather preventing erosion.
3. Pakistani Navy is a scavenging/parasitic force: it does not aim to dominate the sea-lanes, but to opportunistically pick-off enemy warships and merchantmen when possible. For that role land-based bombers seem to be better suited for the overall character of the force.
4. I seriously doubt that Pakistani shipbuilding industry is advanced enough to assemble the German Sub under question: the U-214. But if they want to try and fail miserably, it will be fun watching.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/0,1 ... 96,00.html
Germany and Pakistan to negotiate on U214 deal valed at least 1bn Euros.
DCN's Marlin and TKMS U214 are the final contenders for the PN's three submarine requirement. At this point both are willing to offer Pakistan the necessary technology transfer to manufacture all three submarines locally. However the French are offering better economic offsets than the Germans - and the French President himself went and offered the Marlin. So French competition is strong and threatens the German sale prospect to Pakistan. Another issue brought up by German critics is the possibility that Pakistan would integrate the Babur LACM on the U214s. The critics firmly believe that a naval version of the Babur is under development for submarine launch. Nonetheless TKMS is negotiating with the Pakistan Navy.
Side notes:
The Pakistan Navy has already awarded KSEW to manufacture all three submarines.
The Navy also recently ordered DM2A4 torpedoes from Germany.
http://www.bits.de/public/articles/u-boot-pakistan.htm
Translated excerpt from above article:
Quote:
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The Federal Government does not raise such questions only. It justifies its support for HDW and the nut/mother company Thyssen Krupp navy of system (TKMS) purely economically: "with the receipt of the order the German exporter was put into the position, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell manufacturing. In addition the appropriate occupation effects (...) come "and them suggest that yet all days evening is not: "the order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested." That could be. Pakistan would like later further submarines and shows up also interested in German frigates and corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS. Wenn's swims, concerns in the German export control no light, selects the brain.
Germany and Pakistan to negotiate on U214 deal valed at least 1bn Euros.
DCN's Marlin and TKMS U214 are the final contenders for the PN's three submarine requirement. At this point both are willing to offer Pakistan the necessary technology transfer to manufacture all three submarines locally. However the French are offering better economic offsets than the Germans - and the French President himself went and offered the Marlin. So French competition is strong and threatens the German sale prospect to Pakistan. Another issue brought up by German critics is the possibility that Pakistan would integrate the Babur LACM on the U214s. The critics firmly believe that a naval version of the Babur is under development for submarine launch. Nonetheless TKMS is negotiating with the Pakistan Navy.
Side notes:
The Pakistan Navy has already awarded KSEW to manufacture all three submarines.
The Navy also recently ordered DM2A4 torpedoes from Germany.
http://www.bits.de/public/articles/u-boot-pakistan.htm
Translated excerpt from above article:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Federal Government does not raise such questions only. It justifies its support for HDW and the nut/mother company Thyssen Krupp navy of system (TKMS) purely economically: "with the receipt of the order the German exporter was put into the position, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell manufacturing. In addition the appropriate occupation effects (...) come "and them suggest that yet all days evening is not: "the order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested." That could be. Pakistan would like later further submarines and shows up also interested in German frigates and corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS. Wenn's swims, concerns in the German export control no light, selects the brain.
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Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8, especially 7, cannot be answered without discussing Pakistani and Indian nuclear postures, Pakistani's preference for proxy war, Pakistani defense priority lists etc. One can only make generalizations based on historic behavior, but that is not too reliable - because if we know it, Paks know it too and be sure they will try their damned hardest to defy it with assymetrical methods.Schär wrote:thank you for the answer but I need also answer of the question 5. 6. 7. and 8. please
It is the role , the major role that IN subs will seldom see any action alone . while PN 's surface fleet is i sorry state , buyoant by their 1971 kill of khukri , they see as a all weather effecive doctrine against indian ships .kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?
while on other hand IN subs will be much more oriented towards battle groups , we shouls have good ASW capabilities , P-28 , KA -31 are good options also we need to issue RFP for second line of Subs Defence
Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I
I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)
That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!![/img]
I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)
That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!![/img]
Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I
I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)
That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!![/img]
I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)
That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!![/img]
Has that not always been the central doctrine of Pakistani Navy? A scavenger/parasitic role? Looking at their history the PN is very much a junior service to the Army or the Air Force, so with the limitations in talent and resources their way of life is simply one of hunting when opportunity arises. They cannot seriously hope to hold any sea lanes! In fact the maritime threat posed by PN is slowly increasing by the incresing apparentness of their scavenger position - they are finally inviting in a true predator (PLAN) into the small territory they call their sea-front.parshuram wrote:while PN 's surface fleet is i sorry state , buyoant by their 1971 kill of khukri , they see as a all weather effecive doctrine against indian ships .
I have say any coments please !!!
Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I
I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)
That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!!
Questions 5, 6, 7, and 8 this are very important questions because..when the Pakis should defende their armourd Corps with this air defence Material...so it would be a problem for the Mig-23 and Mig-21 and Jaguar too bomb the Pakistan Tanks like in the Situation by Longwala! We have see it in the Kargil war how effective can be a shoulder fired Missile !I
I have read that the Pakis want put Anza" on their Apc and Alkhalid tanks in the Future ...( Anza2 has the same capebility like the US Stinger)
That mean it would not easy for the IAF to support the ground Troops or bomb the enemy Armour Corps!!
Schär,
MANPADS are a problem but not insurmountable. The aircraft lost in Kargil to MANPADS (1 MiG-21 and 1 Chopper) were both lost in conditions that were optimal for the Manpads. The choppers flares system was not working, and the MiG-21 pilot made repeated passes, allowing for the Manpads operator to acquire him, track and fire.
So, when it comes to dealing with Pak armour/infantry, the rule of the day will be for low flying aircraft, avoiding radar coverage- if possible- to attack the formation, make a few quick strikes and egress rapidly. They will not stick around and allow the formations MANPADs units to orient themselves and retaliate.
Its also instructive to note, that all of Paks SHORAD for the tanks is limited to human guidance. They dont have any Tunguska, Pantsyr type units which can detect and engage air targets from miles away.
So in the Indo-Pak context, there is still an option, for tactical strikes by rockets etc from the air on tanks etc.
MANPADS are a problem but not insurmountable. The aircraft lost in Kargil to MANPADS (1 MiG-21 and 1 Chopper) were both lost in conditions that were optimal for the Manpads. The choppers flares system was not working, and the MiG-21 pilot made repeated passes, allowing for the Manpads operator to acquire him, track and fire.
So, when it comes to dealing with Pak armour/infantry, the rule of the day will be for low flying aircraft, avoiding radar coverage- if possible- to attack the formation, make a few quick strikes and egress rapidly. They will not stick around and allow the formations MANPADs units to orient themselves and retaliate.
Its also instructive to note, that all of Paks SHORAD for the tanks is limited to human guidance. They dont have any Tunguska, Pantsyr type units which can detect and engage air targets from miles away.
So in the Indo-Pak context, there is still an option, for tactical strikes by rockets etc from the air on tanks etc.
Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..ParGha wrote:Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?
Seakings on the Godavari were always described as being able to carry anti-ship missiles....Delhi class has 16 anti ship missiles, but to me our ASW capability is woefully lacking. I was dissapointed also that the Talwar had only one helo.
Most new warships also seem to emphasize Bramhos..
Given that Paks navy's surface fleet will play little or no part in any future conflict, this seems overkill. DEsigning for China? Come on..we have to get out of the Arabian sea first....
In addition, our Seakings for a long time suffered from spares shortage too...and until the uprade, the Il38s were virtually obsolete....
I would like to see more warships fitted with the Klub ASW missile version..The Project28 corvette seems promising....And i will feel a lot more comfortable about the INs ASW capability once they come into service...Plus a selection for the future ASW aircraft and helo also on the cards..the future looks brighter....
The engines in question were already in Chinese hands, what the Russians did was a face-saving measure of symbolically accepting its use on the JF-17s. It should be a lesson to India that it either gains the influence to block Russian sales to China, or resign itself to the fact that the designs will end up in Pakistan's hands one day or another.vatsiboy wrote:in wake of increased cooperation b\t india and US russia has turned a blind eye to the sale of JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines.
russia had earlier stopped its sale to pakistan.
the new development is a matter of grave concern for IAF and indian armed forces as a whole.
JF-17s themselves are not a matter of concern to India - its a fighter that PLAAF itself has rejected, for gods' sake!
First of all I am in complete agreement with you over the ASM efforts.Nandan D wrote:Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..ParGha wrote: Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.
DEsigning for China? Come on..we have to get out of the Arabian sea first....
However the anti-ship weapons do play a significant role if it is planned for a slightly different type of ships than the gray ones, if you get the drift. Those designs are exactly for China, and there is no need to get out of the Indian Ocean for that to come into play. Its a fact the Chinese already appreciate, hence their interest in Gawdar deep-sea port and sub facility.
Indian Navy will be the knife that rips the Chinese String of Pearls - Chinese know that, so they are trying to reinforce that with steel wire and blunt the cutting edge.
What's wrong with using BrahMos?It's a supersonic cruise missile complex which can attack diverse targets.Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.kmc_chacko wrote:What will be IN option aganist German Subs ?
Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..
Seakings on the Godavari were always described as being able to carry anti-ship missiles....Delhi class has 16 anti ship missiles, but to me our ASW capability is woefully lacking. I was dissapointed also that the Talwar had only one helo.
Most new warships also seem to emphasize Bramhos..
Given that Paks navy's surface fleet will play little or no part in any future conflict, this seems overkill.
Overkill?This term is never used in military doctrine.
When the enemy attacks you throw everything at them....rest is called "collateral damage".
No mercy is shown to your combatants from the other side...unless they're unarmed civilians.
Last edited by skher on 09 May 2007 00:51, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing wrong with BrahMos.SonarDeshi wrote:What's wrong with using BrahMos?It's a supersonic cruise missile complex which can attack diverse targets.Sub-hunting helos and patrol/bomber fixed-wings - there is no other cost-effective means of anti-submarine warfare once the subs are out of their lairs. Period. Attack subs in sub-hunting role makes sense only in boomer-hunting roles.
Exactly...which is why i've always been surprised by the IN's penchant for anti-ship weapons..
Seakings on the Godavari were always described as being able to carry anti-ship missiles....Delhi class has 16 anti ship missiles, but to me our ASW capability is woefully lacking. I was dissapointed also that the Talwar had only one helo.
Most new warships also seem to emphasize Bramhos..
Given that Paks navy's surface fleet will play little or no part in any future conflict, this seems overkill.
Except that you can't expect it to *detect* submarines..
Let me clarify, that i am not against BrahMos, or anti ship capability, but feel that we need to invest a lot more in our ASW capability than we have been doing else it will come back to bite us...like 1965...
With Project 128 class corvettes, and possibly P-3/P-8 , upgrades to Il-38 I believe the IN is addressing that... ASW is not as "sexy" as anti-ship or BrahMos but it should, imo, be higher our list of priorities, especially given PNs primarily "sea-denial" role...and the complexities in detecting and destroying subs.. my last thoughts on this subject in this thread...since this is the paksitani weapons thread....we can always continue this discussion in the naval thread...
Right.
Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Last edited by skher on 09 May 2007 01:06, edited 2 times in total.
rkhanna wrote:http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/vorab/0,1 ... 96,00.html
Germany and Pakistan to negotiate on U214 deal valed at least 1bn Euros.
DCN's Marlin and TKMS U214 are the final contenders for the PN's three submarine requirement. The critics firmly believe that a naval version of the Babur is under development for submarine launch. Nonetheless TKMS is negotiating with the Pakistan Navy.
The Navy also recently ordered DM2A4 torpedoes from Germany.
http://www.bits.de/public/articles/u-boot-pakistan.htm
Translated excerpt from above article:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Federal Government does not raise such questions only. It justifies its support for HDW and the nut/mother company Thyssen Krupp navy of system (TKMS) purely economically: "with the receipt of the order the German exporter was put into the position, current development successes in the technology of the submarine manufacturing to strengthen and secure on a long-term basis particularly in the gas cell manufacturing. In addition the appropriate occupation effects (...) come "and them suggest that yet all days evening is not: "the order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested." That could be. Pakistan would like later further submarines and shows up also interested in German frigates and corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS. Wenn's swims, concerns in the German export control no light, selects the brain.
I don't quite get it.HDW/DCN/TKMS have active dealings with the IN for various naval systems and naval designing contracts.How come these "purely economical" dealings don't have a national security angle?
Is our Co-Intel good enough to plug the possible defence leaks?
ParGha wrote:The engines in question were already in Chinese hands, what the Russians did was a face-saving measure of symbolically accepting its use on the JF-17s. It should be a lesson to India that it either gains the influence to block Russian sales to China, or resign itself to the fact that the designs will end up in Pakistan's hands one day or another.vatsiboy wrote:in wake of increased cooperation b\t india and US russia has turned a blind eye to the sale of JF-17 fighter aircraft powered by Russian RD-93 engines.
russia had earlier stopped its sale to pakistan.
the new development is a matter of grave concern for IAF and indian armed forces as a whole.
JF-17s themselves are not a matter of concern to India - its a fighter that PLAAF itself has rejected, for gods' sake!
i am not sure about its rejection. rejected by PAF or PLAAF or both it doent really matter. the point is that its in service and that too with an engine of our closest military ally. and serial production will start from 2008 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex.
JF17s surely does not turn the table on india. but its a concern that going closer to an unreliable country like US can hamper our relations with our old trusted allies. US has an impeccable history of not respecting international commitments when its needed the most.
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http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/meko/
MEKO CLASS STEALTH FRIGATES OFFERED TO PAKIS BY THE GERMANS,,,THESE FRIGATES LOOK DEADLY AND CAN GIVE A STIFF COMPETITION TO OUR PROJECT 17 A FRIGATES CHECK OUT
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/
THE PROJECT U 214 SUBMARINES
MAN I HATE THE GERMANS,,,THEY ARE OFFERING THE TERRORISTS SUCH DEADLY CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS
MEKO CLASS STEALTH FRIGATES OFFERED TO PAKIS BY THE GERMANS,,,THESE FRIGATES LOOK DEADLY AND CAN GIVE A STIFF COMPETITION TO OUR PROJECT 17 A FRIGATES CHECK OUT
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/
THE PROJECT U 214 SUBMARINES
MAN I HATE THE GERMANS,,,THEY ARE OFFERING THE TERRORISTS SUCH DEADLY CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS
India can very easily checkmate the pakis as far as sub technology is concerned.We already have 4 U-209s in servcie.The "Germs" have been very keen for us to buy more of the same upgraded versions,knowing that an IN buy brings them rich rewards worldwide,as many countries choose their military eqpt. after India has bought a system (MIG-29 &SU-30MKI-Malaysia.U-209-S.Africa,Kilos-Iran,etc.).What we have to do is to upgrade the U-209s with AIP and underwater missile firing capability,for Klubs.The AIP can then be considered as the AIP system for the Brahmos equipped Amur,so the Germans have a finger in that pie.The French are already selling us the Scorpene and either a few more upgraded versions of the same,or another advanced sub designed by them could be evaluated by the IN.This way,we will always be ahead of the Pakis,who will then have to go to China for their sub acquisitions.
Blastic missiles to attack subs?SonarDeshi wrote:Right.
Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Are you a paki?
krishnan wrote:Blastic missiles to attack subs?SonarDeshi wrote:Right.
Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Are you a paki?
no,am not.meant to say that the DRDO must start a anti-sub missile program in earnest.It could possibly re-utilize the design experience gained from its Agni SLBM or the BrahMos.
However,I checked this up...and now think I'm wrong.Have realized that action of SLBM is way too different from an anti-sub one.Forgive me.
Anyway,is Pakistan building a nuke-sub on its own?
According to ibnlive.com the first ATV is set to be launched by 2007 and has overcome its main problem:
Reports now indicate that India has "overcome" the biggest problem or miniaturisation of a nuclear power plant that is to be mounted on a submarine hull.
krishnan wrote:Blastic missiles to attack subs?SonarDeshi wrote:Right.
Then,I guess BrahMos' claim of auniversal cruise missile...is slightly overrated....it can attack anything except subs.
Perhaps,the SLBM variant of Agni can be re-designed in parallel to suit the Anti-submarine role.
For the time being IN is buying a lot of RPK-8s from Russia for its ASW warships.
Are you a paki?
no,am not.meant to say that the DRDO must start a anti-sub missile program in earnest.It could possibly re-utilize the design experience gained from its Agni SLBM or the BrahMos.
However,I checked this up...and now think I'm wrong.Have realized that action of SLBM is way too different from an anti-sub one.Forgive me.
Anyway,IS Pakistan building a nuke-sub on its own??
According to ibnlive.com the first ATV prototype is set to be launched by 2007 and has overcome its main problem:
Reports now indicate that India has overcome the biggest problem or miniaturisation of a nuclear power plant that is to be mounted on a submarine hull.
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