Religion Thread 4

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Mar 2007 02:57

All Hindu mythical terrorists of epic proportions are believers of some type of God. Hence, with in the realm of his devotion and beliefs, some of these evil men are assumed to have gotten moksha [meaning not social evil sense prevails for them, but people will consider them acceptable to be read in stories

].

Sope, with in the realm of degenerated multiple belief systems and evil power mongering, we have equally or better anti-evil systems that works towards generating positive minds, and thus quell evil, and evade invasion of these dark forces, again taking better positions in the stories.

the villain always is either killed/banished/mokshawed and the goodness prevails with humans.

S.Valkan · Post by **S.Valkan** » 27 Mar 2007 03:40

Rakesh wrote: dumb idols? Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

Wonderful allegations!

Heard this many times from the purveyors of a "living God" - the "idols" are "dead" and "no breath in them" !

This is precisely because of the anthropomorphism in Judeo-Christian understanding of "God".

Well, let's revert that charge: does that Judeo-Christian "God" breathe ?

If so, what did it breathe BEFORE "creation" ?

Unfortunately, that is not what "idol worship" is, in Hinduism.

Idols are Hinduism are symbols( Pratika ) of the majesty of the Divine in a form that allows for personal relationship.

How can you THINK about a "formless" entity, leave alone RELATE to it ?

Mind you,- "out of sight, out of mind"!

So, you can't form a relation with a "formless" entity.

By speaking of "Father" etc - and providing the BASIC anthropomorphic characteristics like jealousy, mind, voice ( speaking to Moses ), and stories of the burning bush etc, even the Judeo-Christian are TRYING to create some manageable form.

Some Christians - Catholics and Orthodox - use some form of Jesus in the womb of Mary to relate to "God" as the Son, or Jesus on the Cross as "God" the saviour, while the Protestants use a symbol ( the Crucifix) much towards the same goal.

It is all aimed at cultivating some focussing agent to concentrate on.

Hinduism simply encompasses the whole gamut.

You want to relate to "God" as a friend, a child/son/daughter, a mother, a lover/beloved, or a master of the universe, as a creator, as a sustainer, as a dissolutioner, and think about "him/her" all the time, you have a choice.

Each of those "moods" has a relevant Vigraha.

You want to mollycoddle "God" as your cherub son ? There's Krishna as "Bala Gopala", stealing cream/butter from Mother Yashoda.

You want to see majesty in him too ?

Well, the Bhagavatam tells you about Mother Yashoda unable to bind him with ALL the rope in the world,- there is always some shortage.

It also shows the whole Universe in Bala Gopala's mouth, when Mother Yashoda asks him to open his mouth.

And so on.

You want to worship "God" as the all-powerful Mother in whom you can take refuge in times of distress ( much like a young child views its own mother ) ?

There's the form of Kali, with the corpse of Shiva at her feet.

It is simply a symbol that without the aspect of an ACTIVE Shakti, Shiva ( as Nirguna, Nirakara Brahman ) is Niskriya like a Shava( dead like a corpse ).

You like to worship the Mother as a Creatrix, Sustainer and Destroyer all in one shot as a Cycle of Life ?

There is the rather frightening idol of Chhinnamasta.

And so on, and so forth.

Whatever form works for you is good enough for Hinduism.

It is a gradual change in the concentration of the mind that is the significant aim.

Only by cultivating a personal relationship with "God", will you be thinking of "God" all the time.

That is what the "idol worship" is about.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2007 04:01

Rakesh:

You are right that when you pray to God you must come as a child. Jesus spoke primarily Aramaic not Hebrew. When he prayed he used the word "Abba" which is the Armaic equivilent of "Daddy" or "Pappa". It is practically unthinkable for the Jews of that period to use such a term for God. "Our Daddy who art in heaven...." Kinda gives it a whole new meaning doesn't it?

S.Valkan · Post by **S.Valkan** » 27 Mar 2007 04:05

TSJones wrote:Kinda gives it a whole new meaning doesn't it?

Not a new meaning.

It is the only relevant meaning.

One that has been known to the Hindoo pagans for thousands of years.

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 27 Mar 2007 04:21

Valkan, thanks for such a clear interpretation. I am learnign so many new things and trying to absorb as much as can.
FYI
http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/spotlight/taliban.htm

No doubt Islam prohibits idol worship as according to Islam there is one God who cannot be conceived of in any shape. This concept of Islam comes quite close to the Hindu tradition which teaches that God is nirgun and nirankar (i.e. without attributes and shape).

An eighteenth century sufi saint Mazhar Jan-i-janan who is buried in Delhi even maintained that Hindu worship of idols is qualitatively different from idol worshipping of pre-Islamic Arabs. He maintained that the pre-Islamic Arabs worshipped those idols as God whereas the Hindus who believe God is nirankar and nirgun worship them not as God but as intermediary to God. They see in these idols the reflection of God and Jan-i-Janan compares it with a sufi's tasawwur-e-shiekh. A sufi reaches Allah through a Master called Sheikh, not by himself. Similarly a Hindu reaches God through the agency of an idol in which he sees God's reflection. And thus he maintains that such idol worship does not lead to kufr i.e. denial of oneness of God or shirk i.e. associating partners with God.

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 27 Mar 2007 04:24

Second, why is it that everything wrong about India is associated with Hinduism

Does everyone agree with this?

I find that many things that are "wrong" with India can be attributed to the invaders, the colonizers, and then the socialists.

Why does a comment like this go unrebutted?

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 27 Mar 2007 04:28

Calvin my intention is to provoke response. So far no one has picked it up.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 27 Mar 2007 04:37

Only a rational refutation of that would be acceptable.

But is belief rational?

Seriously, S.Valkan you have argued excellently on the same issue I raised with Rakesh many moons ago - on the omnipotent yet omniscient "God."

rongsheng · Post by **rongsheng** » 27 Mar 2007 04:41

Joypee,
Feels bad that I am saying christian god is the biggest mass murderer.
Do you feel bad for the act(i.e., killing all humans except Noah's family) or I saying
that christian god did that? Isn't that a fact according to Christian belief?

Rakesh,
If I understand right, you main line of argument is that according to christianity
all humans are sinners and it is okay for Christian god to kill humans who have sinned.

Sorry, I do not buy that argument. IMHO, most humans, I suspect, will not buy that argument either.
Let me give you an example.
Suppose a infant has just been born today. By your/Christian logic that infant is a sinner. And it is
okay for Christian god to murder the infant. I think only the most cruel god will do such a thing.

A "good" person, by most human standards , will not enter heaven in Christianity but a mass murderer who repents in jesus will enter heaven. Hitler will be in Christian heaven if he prayed to jesus minutes before he died. Christian god does not care about how one lives their life. The only thing he cares is whether the person prays to him or not.

Neupane · Post by **Neupane** » 27 Mar 2007 04:42

Excellent Interpretation Valkan. Also, somebody please put Swami Vivekananda's speech before the World Religion summit in Chicago. He has also quite eloquently expianed the using of Symbols in Hinduism. Like He said that we learn Aphabets to learn and to understand a language similarly the Symbols(idols) and rituals and other spritual signs in Hinduism help us to focus and lead to higher plain of spritual awreness.
Yoga is one such tool for to practice physical co-ordination with mind to help deeper meditation.

thanks-

neupane

Vishy_mulay · Post by **Vishy_mulay** » 27 Mar 2007 04:49

Neupane,
this link has the speech in Swamiji's voice
http://www.writespirit.net/blog/archive ... ivekananda

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Mar 2007 04:54

Great Valkanization! kudos.

Neupane · Post by **Neupane** » 27 Mar 2007 05:46

Thanks vishy_mulay

neupane

rongsheng · Post by **rongsheng** » 27 Mar 2007 05:57

Rakesh wrote:
Rongsheng...that was a long answer and I touched base (albeit very lightly) on a number of topics, but does that answer your question? Please advise.

rongsheng wrote:Why does Christian god tolerate and promote slavery? Why does Christian god allow rape of virgin women by his followers?
On slavery, you are talking about a society which a man (being the head of a family) owned slaves. That was the custom back then. We can argue back and forth on this topic and we would be just wasting our breath.

But the issue of God allowing the rape of virgin women, requires a bit more clarification. I think you are referring to the book of Numbers, chapter 31. Please advise.

rongsheng wrote:If you didn't know this before, the story of flood is a rehash of older middle eastern stories of flood. Try Atrahasis, or Gilgamesh or Ziusudra to see the real story.
For every verse in the Bible, there are scores of books & people out there to discount it. Such is the depravity of man. But that is a-okay with me, for I too discounted the Bible at one point and wanted nothing to do with God.

Rakesh,
As I said in my previous post, the only thing christian god cares about is whether humans are praying to him or not.
Regarding, slavery you say it was a custom then. I say it was a bad custom. There were a lot of other customs too. Was idolatry a custom back then? Didn't christian god talk about idolatry? christian god specifically talks about customs he does not like. christian god does not mention slavery as a bad thing. Infact, IIRC, as I posted before christian god blesses Abraham with more slaves.

Yes, Rape of virgin women is from Numbers.

Bible is written long(thousand years) after the stories of Atrahasis/Gilgamesh/Ziusudra . You cannot say these flood stories are copied from bible.

Old testament and New testament are mostly myths.
For example, Virgin birth is a clear case of Matthew using mistranslated Greek Versions. In the new testament only Matthew and Luke say Mary was virgin when she had Jesus. Luke copied mostly from Mark and Matthew.

Matthew was using a greek translation of old testament which had a incorrect translation.
Here is the correct translation of original old testament verse Isaiah 7:14

14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Source

This was mistranslated to the following

Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you [a] a sign: The virgin will conceive, have a son, and name him Immanuel.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;

Matthew was building up the case for Jesus as Immanuel and inserted virgin birth.

Happy is he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... &version=9;

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 27 Mar 2007 06:20

TSJones wrote:Jesus spoke primarily Aramaic not Hebrew. When he prayed he used the word "Abba" which is the Armaic equivilent of "Daddy" or "Pappa". It is practically unthinkable for the Jews of that period to use such a term for God. "Our Daddy who art in heaven...." Kinda gives it a whole new meaning doesn't it?

I have always been slightly bothered by western studies of hinduism overwhelmingly focusing on psychoanalysis of philosophical parts and trying to illustrate them using exclusively medieval era paintings, as if hinduism was established in medieval times. They always manage to find most hideous looking paintings from the Mughal times to illustrate hindu divinities.

You will never find a hindu representation of divinity in a western scholarly book which even remotely corresponds to what hindus currently practice, or what they used to in hinduism's heyday, say the Gupta age. Its always some persian-art form of Mughal painting, and even then selecting the partricularly hideous ones.

Sigh... . In the same vein I don't see Hindu 'stotras' or prayers as forming any significant part of Sanskrit curricula in western univs. Stotras are beautiful and laden with a childlike devotion to the deity. By excluding them, a significant part of how hindus view their deities is blotted out.

I am dead certain, that it will come as a huge shock to many in the west that hindus have hauntingly beautiful stotras/prayers/songs for all the deities of hinduism, supposedly even the so called terrible ones, from a viewpoint of a child addressing his/her loving parent.

Are there any Ramprasad fans here who recall his many beautiful bengali songs to Mother Kali?
http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa051202a.htm

O Longing Mind
- by Ramprasad

O longing mind,
consecrate your being to pure love.
Turn every thought to Goddess Tara.
She will bear you tenderly across the raging sea
of separation and individuality.

Be utterly dedicated to her reality.
Cry aloud Ma Kali, Ma Kali.
Know that she can clarify
the inconceivable maze of relativity.
To hope for assistance and guidance through this world
from wealth, relatives, and religious rites
provides no profound solution.
Have you forgotten that everyone is lost?

Where are you now? Why are you traveling?
This cosmos is the strange theater where souls act,
wearing various costumes and disguises.
This intricate play of transparent energy
is initiated, sustained, and dissolved by Kali,
who is the dream power of Absolute Reality.
At this very moment, you are resting
on the vast lap of Mother's cosmic dream
that you misperceive
as the narrow prison of suffering.
Why abandon the kingdom of awareness
to obsession with self and disdain for others,
to hollow passion and abject clinging?
You are creating a disease without a remedy.
The brief day of your earthly life is almost over.
Meditate now on beautiful Black Tara.
She is seated upon the jewel island of essence
in the transparent sea of ultimacy.

This poet sings drunkenly:
"Tara! Tara! Tara!
Your name is ambrosia.
May all beings enter the secret sanctuary
through this name,
tasting your unique sweetness,
self-luminous awareness."

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 27 Mar 2007 07:11

The theologians on this thread are putting me to sleep.

However, I have waded through a number of posts. It appears that the Christian opposition to idolatory as posted by Rakesh is to those that believe that the idol itself is a god. From what we have seen from SValkan, the SD view of vigraha is that the idols is a representation of a deity, not a deity itself. If this is the case, it appears that the distinctions are superficial in nature. I thnk most churches, have statues of various christian characters, from Christ, to the various saints etc.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2007 07:19

A "good" person, by most human standards , will not enter heaven in Christianity but a mass murderer who repents in jesus will enter heaven. Hitler will be in Christian heaven if he prayed to jesus minutes before he died. Christian god does not care about how one lives their life. The only thing he cares is whether the person prays to him or not.

I wasn't going to get involved with refuting the anti-Christian statements and instead just stay on the parameters. But this statement couldn't be more wrong.

First of all, you have to be reformed, or "reborn" in the spirit. I highly doubt that a mass murderer was capable of such a thing at the last minute before his death. Oh he was sorry all right, sorry that he was caught not sorry that he failed to follow the Golden Rule. It would be practically impossible for him to be reborn in the spirit just minutes before his death. The wages of sin is death. Last minute true reform is rare indeed.

However, there is a point I would like to make: The Prodigal Son:

"There was a man who had two sons. The younger of them said to his father, 'Father give me the share of his property that will belong to me.' So he divided the property between them. A few days later the younger son gathered all he had and traveled to a distant country, and there he squandered his property in dissolute living. When he had spend everything, a severe famine took place throughout that country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed the pigs. He would gladly have filled himself with the pods that the pigs were eating; and no one gave him anything. But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired hands have bread enough and to spare, but here I am dying of hunger! I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son, treat me like one of your hired hands."' So he set off and went to his father. But while he was still a far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his servants, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to celebrate.

Wonderful, huh? True forgiveness our Lord has for us. But is this the point of the message? Read on:

"Now his elder son was in the field; and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. He called on of the servants and asked what was going on. He replied, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fatted calf because he has got him back safe and sound.' Then he became angry and refused to go in. His father came out and began to plead with him. But he answered his father, 'Listen! For all these years I have been working like a slave for you, and I have never disobeyed your command; yet you have never given me even a young goat so that I might celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours came back, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fatted calf for him!' Then the father said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found.'" (Luke 15:11-3)

There's the point! His son was forgiven and he was back with the father. But the other son who had kept the faith and worked hard, *owned* the damned place!

Our God is a fair God. However, you will be judged. You can potentially be reborn at the last minute and you can be saved and be with Abba, but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be one of the plank owners.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Mar 2007 07:21

Calvin wrote: From what we have seen from SValkan, the SD view of vigraha is that the idols is a representation of a deity, not a deity itself. If this is the case, it appears that the distinctions are superficial in nature. I thnk most churches, have statues of various christian characters, from Christ, to the various saints etc.

This is in fact why the Wahhabis accuse the Catholic church of being idol worshippers.

That is a laughable accusation for the reasons you have stated - but the accusation is the first act in provoking a conflict.

In all cases, whether it is a evanjihadi making a statement to a potential convert about Hindus, or a forum member accusing a Christian God of murdering children, or a Wahhabi accusing catholics of idol worship there is an intent to provoke conflict rather than reach understanding as you have done.

That is part of the complaint against evanjihadis. Their business is improved by provoking conflict. If their business helped communal harmony and understanding in India it would be a different matter. But it appears that their horizons do not extend that far.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Mar 2007 07:28

As a digression - "Abba" for father must be an ancient word indeed. Abba is still the word used for dad in Urdu, and that is eerily similar to "Appa", meaning father in South Indian languages. I am certain that other related words have a similar root - - i.e Pa, Pater (Latin), Paternal, Pitru (Sanskrit), Pita (Hindi)

Not surprising that words for father and mother have come down nearly unchanged thorugh the centuries.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 27 Mar 2007 07:34

Shiv,

A baby doesn't know how to use her toungue for articulation. So first sounds are always the lip-sounds like pa, ba, ma (pa-varga in sanskrit).

And since parents are most immediate reality for a baby,words like pa, ma, ba, papa ,baba, mama, abba, amma, appa, amba form the corresponding expressions for them in the baby's voice.

A universl lingo of all babes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Mar 2007 07:40

TSJones wrote: Our God is a fair God..

As far as Sanatana Dharma (SD/Hinduism) is concerned, the fairness of your God will not be in dispute.

But "your" God will join the ranks of numerous other Gods whose "properties" have been explored, questioned and even dissed by Hindu thinkers. All this has happened within the ambit of SD, without groups splitting away and killing thinkers for new thought that questioned Gods with definable human properties.

One of the enduring things that you will find Hindu scholars talking about is not God (with definable characteristics) but of an "ultimate reality beyond God". This ultimate reality it turns out, fits in closely with the atheist physicists view of the universe. This is also why so many of these physicists (on BRF and off BRF) quote some Hindu/SD literature - which they are reminded of in descriptions of the world and universe. This is not "religion" per se - but Hindu dharma (Sanatana Dharma) never claimed to be a religion in the first place. It existed before monotheistic religions and other religions were created and people of those religions looked at Hindus and said "Different religion" - and gave the "religion" tag to Hinduism/ Hindu dharma/ SD

To put it simply, Hindu literature and thought have - millennia ago decided to reconcile the conflict between Church and science that was fought in Europe years ago and is being seen again in the US now.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Mar 2007 07:44

Kumar wrote:Shiv,

A baby doesn't know how to use her toungue for articulation. So first sounds are always the lip-sounds like pa, ba, ma (pa-varga in sanskrit).

And since parents are most immediate reality for a baby,words like pa, ma, ba, papa ,baba, mama, abba, amma, appa, amba form the corresponding expressions for them in the baby's voice.

A universl lingo of all babes.

Off topic for this thread but it has been theorized that the sound for mother "Ma"/ "Amma', "mum" are derived from the sound of a suckling baby taking his mouth off the breast and saying "aa" - creating the word "maa" for mother. Also yumm and mumm for something to eat.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 27 Mar 2007 07:46

Following from what Shiv mentioned above, people do talk of Hindu or Buddhist philosophy, but do peoople talk about Christian philosophy? Most of the time the phrase I hear is Christian theology.

Was St. Augustine a philosopher or theologian?

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 27 Mar 2007 07:50

TSJones wrote: Our God is a fair God. However, you will be judged. You can potentially be reborn at the last minute and you can be saved and be with Abba, but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be one of the plank owners.

That is your belief and may you own many planks

Let the rest of us own nothing, but be one with the universe. Shanti!

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 27 Mar 2007 07:53

I do know that he is the patron saint of brewers!

While searching for Augustine, here is what Wikipedia has to say:

Augustine took the view that the Biblical text should not be interpreted literally if it contradicts what we know from science and our God-given reason. In an important passage on his "The Literal Interpretation of Genesis" (early 5th century, AD), St. Augustine wrote:

It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation." (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19â€“20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408])

With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." (ibid, 2:9)

rongsheng · Post by **rongsheng** » 27 Mar 2007 07:54

TSJones wrote:
I wasn't going to get involved with refuting the anti-Christian statements and instead just stay on the parameters. But this statement couldn't be more wrong.

TSJ, why don't you ask your friendly evangelist?

For your pleasure...
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... illed.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... r-god.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... -list.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... lings.html
Looks like Christian god is winning hands down in this contest.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 27 Mar 2007 08:01

people do talk of Hindu or Buddhist philosophy, but do peoople
talk about Christian philosophy? Most of the time the phrase I hear is Christian theology.

Interesting point there. Anyone heard of 'izlamic philosophy', btw? Is there any such animal? Was it ever in existence? Anyone hve a clue, links, sources, pls share! Tks in advance.

Kumar · Post by **Kumar** » 27 Mar 2007 08:07

Calvin, thanks for the quote. St. Augustine did have an 'interesting' life before he turned to religion. So, although I didn't know that he was the patron saint of breweries, but that was perhaps not unimaginable. I have a copy of his book 'Confessions', but can't say have read it in much depth yet.

I find christian saints like St. Francis of Assissi, St. Augustine, St. Theresa of Avila as interesting and informative studies from a hindu viewpoint.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Mar 2007 08:11

rongsheng wrote:
TSJones wrote:
I wasn't going to get involved with refuting the anti-Christian statements and instead just stay on the parameters. But this statement couldn't be more wrong.
TSJ, why don't you ask your friendly evangelist?

For your pleasure...
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... illed.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... r-god.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... -list.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... lings.html
Looks like Christian god is winning hands down in this contest.

I see this argument as the same one that we came across in the early Islamism threads.

It does not matter too much what the God does.

What does matter is:

a)What his human followers do
b)How seriously they put themselves in God's position and then proceed to do what God does.

I see the argument about "Your God does this and that" as a serious diversion BECAUSE it shifts focus away from what humans are doing to offence against a virtual entiity (real to some) or a non entity (blasphemy!) called God.

The only example I can think of is as follows. Suppose a thread on BRF gets dedicated to the posting and linking of hard ***** material. People begin to object and then someone says "This is happening on BRF because of shiv. Shiv is the person who encourages hard ***** on BRF"

This statement leads to an argument about whether it is shiv alone who is responsible, or all other admins or the people who post and read. Whatever the outcome of the argument - the fact that there is a regular stream of postors who post links and others who read gets sidelined and forgotten.

It matters little what your God does. Your God is allowed to be a rapist murderer. Its what you do that counts.

In a sense I am quoting a Hindu way of thinking - but I think this thought process exists among people of other faiths as well

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 27 Mar 2007 08:16

Calvin wrote: I agree with you on this, but perhaps you have also recognized that yours is a minority view. Most people would proscribe the conversion in the first place.

Did you take a poll? Or is it only from data you collected on this forum? If the latter, you donâ€™t believe us forumites to be worthy of such respect in the first place. How conveniently you declare my opinion as that of the minority? Thus freeing yourself of the burden to answer the issue at hand.

Calvin wrote: My point is that the commentary in this forum is probably not much different from the commentary one might receive in a Church or a mosque - it mostly harps on the positive in the religion, and occasionally takes whacks at other religions. Quite frankly, it does not inform so much as propagandize.

Is that an editorial on the kind of speech that goes on in a Church/Mosque or on this forum?

It is easy to hide behind the shield of â€œsecular humanistâ€

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 27 Mar 2007 08:19

Pulikeshi - There have been numerous threads on this forum, going back to 1998, before those discussions were banned in the first place. My commentary is based on all of those discussions. Perhaps the conclusion is unpalatable, but it is justifiable.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2007 08:20

rongsheng wrote:
TSJones wrote:
I wasn't going to get involved with refuting the anti-Christian statements and instead just stay on the parameters. But this statement couldn't be more wrong.
TSJ, why don't you ask your friendly evangelist?

For your pleasure...
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... illed.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... r-god.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... -list.html
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com ... lings.html
Looks like Christian god is winning hands down in this contest.

Not only that you can be struck with emerods(hemeroids)! Ouch!
1 Samuel 5 verse 12

rongsheng · Post by **rongsheng** » 27 Mar 2007 08:22

TSJones wrote:
Our God is a fair God. However, you will be judged. You can potentially be reborn at the last minute and you can be saved and be with Abba, but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be one of the plank owners.

You must be kidding. Where is the fairness in choosing some middle eastern tribe as his chosen people? Let the rest of humanity go to dogs but I will stick with my chosen people, I will guide them, send them prophets, rescue them from slavery, I will kill people who are currently occupying the land and give it to my chosen people. Is that fairness? How come bible does not talk about India or China or America? How come there is no mention of christian god sending prophets to save people in America? Oh I see, christian god does not deem necessary to save these people as they are not his chosen people. Don't worry, he has prepared a nice abode for these people, a place called hell. How fair is my christian god?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2007 08:37

This is so sophmoric. Didn't you go to a liberal arts college? Didn't you sit up late at nights in the dorm arguing religion and philosophy? You should have. You are trying to take the Old Testament and apply it to modern religion and judge it under Presentism, a grave error in historical perspective. Jesus gave us a new way. We don't have to make burnt sacrifices anymore to God. That was taken care of by Jesus. Before Jesus there were elaborate rituals concernig diet, work habits, cultural exclusion, etc, etc., all detailed in the OT. We don't do that anymore beause of the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. However, we must be *reformed or reborn* in the spirit and must try to live our lives by the Golden Rule. We will be judged if we don't.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2007 08:41

According to Paul, all of those who have not heard the Message, will be judged by their law and what is in their hearts. It's in Romans chapter.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 27 Mar 2007 08:43

Calvin wrote:Pulikeshi - There have been numerous threads on this forum, going back to 1998, before those discussions were banned in the first place. My commentary is based on all of those discussions. Perhaps the conclusion is unpalatable, but it is justifiable.

Calvin,

I am sure I have been around since the begining of this forum and understand your point of view. However, I still hope you will recognize that the Hindus are awake, we are no longer equal-equal of the type Dr. Radhakrishnan tried to plead (see his Principal Upanishads for example).

Hinduism is different and better - We are like a Venture Capitalist that funds different ideas, and sees if some will bear fruits. Many ideas have fallen by the way side in Hinduism. However, anyone male, female, of any caste, race or religion, has been able to come with their ideas, uphold dharma, and become spiritual leaders in Hinduism.

The Judeo-Christian-Islamic traid by comparison, is similar to Socialism. There are social benefits, but that system stifles creativity. The EJs on the other hand are similar to Communism. All the anger of that oracle Marx, and the intolerance of his flawed logic on capital. However, it does find mass appeal among the faithful.

It was correct for the West to pick a battle with communism. It is correct for the East to pick a battle with EJs.

But wait we are only Hindu, we challenge them intellectually

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 27 Mar 2007 08:55

TSJones wrote:We don't have to make burnt sacrifices anymore to God. That was taken care of by Jesus. Before Jesus there were elaborate rituals concernig diet, work habits, cultural exclusion, etc, etc., all detailed in the OT. We don't do that anymore beause of the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. However, we must be *reformed or reborn* in the spirit and must try to live our lives by the Golden Rule. We will be judged if we don't.

TSJ: regarding 'burnt sacrifices, take a look at this, hindus still make burnt offerings but differently

This rice powder paste modelled as a lamb (Pishta-Pasu) on the baked plantain leaf will be hard-baked after folding the leaf edges. Parts of the figure will be cut out and ritualistically offered to fire-god (Homam), with the assumption that it is truely a lamb.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2007 08:59

Rongshong, I see mostly flame baits from you. Its only because three admins are on the thread that no one is responding to you. But that does not mean you are not noticed. So you need to bring something of value to the table or desist.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 27 Mar 2007 09:01

Thank you Raju for sharing that with me. It always nice to see how others worship and make offerings to God. I like the outline of the The Lamb indeed!

rongsheng · Post by **rongsheng** » 27 Mar 2007 09:19

ramana wrote:Rongshong, I see mostly flame baits from you. Its only because three admins are on the thread that no one is responding to you. But that does not mean you are not noticed. So you need to bring something of value to the table or desist.

ok.