Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 22 Feb 2011 18:30

if i am not wrong i had heard that Embraer - ERJ-145 is carrying a dummy radar ,to stimulate a radar weight and also to test the aircraft's flight characteristics , and Rahul sir is right Israeli's and Airbus are pushing hard for their aircraft's for the second batch this all was told to me in Aero India 2011 .

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 23 Feb 2011 18:28

^^Yup it is but it also carrying many other systems which are not dummy. I even read it some where that as soon as the aircraft comes to India it will get the real deal.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 23 Feb 2011 20:46

Juggi G wrote:

Nice pic Juggi G. I suppose that is the picture of AWAC's small scale model PSed on a sky background? Or is it a 3d render?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 08:35

the general look of the embraer facility (that black chair, flower pots for decoration) reminds one of any HAL facility. not so tfta as US/EU plants with carefully staged psyops photos using blue mood lighting and tools surgically arranged for best photographic effect.

seems to be a fairly open and non H&D oriented culture ?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 24 Feb 2011 08:57

Lots of info..

Embraer Completes First EMB-145 for Indian AEW&C
Feb 23, 2011
By Graham Warwick
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... an%20AEW&C

SAO JOSE DOS CAMPOS, Brazil — Embraer has unveiled the first of three EMB-145s ordered by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) as testbeds for an indigenously developed airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) system.

The first aircraft, equipped with the antenna structure for the phased-array radar under development by DRDO’s Bengalaru-based Center for Air Borne Systems (CABS), will be flight tested at Embraer before its scheduled delivery to India in August.

Once delivered, CABS will begin integration of the AEW&C mission system, which includes the active, electronically scanned array radar, electronic support measures, satellite communications, datalinks and operator workstations.

The full configuration is expected to fly next year, says V.K. Saraswat, director general of DRDO. The three EMB-145 AEW&C testbeds will be used for a range of tests including cold-weather trails in Alaska, he says.

Saraswat says the indigenous AEW&C development program has tough milestones to meet, but is on schedule. The building blocks of the mission system are undergoing simulation testing in the laboratory and rooftop tests of the S-band radar are under way at CABS, he says, adding, “The system is ready to take to the aircraft and begin integration.”

Although the antenna is mounted above the fuselage like the Saab Erieye phased-array radar on Embraer’s existing EMB-145 AEW&C, the Indian aircraft incorporates several improvements. These include an in-flight refueling probe; a new electrical generation system with a second auxiliary power unit for the mission suite; and a new cooling system.

Following development, the three aircraft are scheduled to become operational with the Indian air force under a two-pronged approach to deploying an AEW&C capability, Saraswat says.

This involves the purchase of Ilyushin Il-76s equipped with Elta’s Phalcon phased-array radar, now operational with the air force, while the indigenous AEW&C system is being developed in parallel.

As a next step, India plans to follow the three EMB-145s with development of an indigenous AEW&C system with the active-array radar mounted in a stationary rotodome. The platform for this system has not been selected, Saraswat says.

Although externally similar to Erieye, the antenna for India’s radar is shorter and deeper as it includes modules for the identification friend or foe system along the bottom of the transmit/receive array, says the director of CABS and the AEW&C program manager.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Feb 2011 09:46

The full configuration is expected to fly next year, says V.K. Saraswat, director general of DRDO. The three EMB-145 AEW&C testbeds will be used for a range of tests including cold-weather trails in Alaska, he says.

Alaska?

Arent there cold enough places in India?
Why would we want to give free intel to Americans about the desi AWACs capabilities?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 10:01

I dont think we will do any mission eqpt tests there. Embraer probably has a cold weather test facility which will do the cold soak engine startup, power systems and flight tests run by Embraer engineers to certify the plane with its mission payload acting as dummy (turned off).

fairbanks,alaska claims to be the world capital for this.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 24 Feb 2011 10:06

^ The cold weather trials will most probably be done with dummy array only - antenna external cover with weights to simulate the load. Also Alaska is closer from Rio with somewhat similar climatic conditions than bringing them to India and take them back for rectification of any snags or hitches.

VKS mentions that the testbeds shall be flown in Alaska, which means the dummy array only. The real antenna shall be mounted only after delivery to us this August after which we shall test the antenna within secure airspace of our country. The cold weather trials are for the airframe and its systems, not for the antenna.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 30 Mar 2011 10:23

CABS racing ahead with AEWC integration

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 30 Mar 2011 14:10

suryag wrote:CABS racing ahead with AEWC integration

Are there security issues with doing this on foreign soil?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Mar 2011 03:35

Pranav wrote:
suryag wrote:CABS racing ahead with AEWC integration
Are there security issues with doing this on foreign soil?

Prior to the arrival of the aircraft

They are integrating systems in India - on the ground.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 31 Mar 2011 08:11

NRao wrote:
Prior to the arrival of the aircraft
They are integrating systems in India - on the ground.

Prior to arrival means prior to arrival in India. So it seems the work is being done on foreign soil. Plus testing in Alaska of all places.

Added later - perhaps by integration they don't mean integration with aircraft. Unclear wording. But testing in Alaska raises questions.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 31 Mar 2011 09:11

integration at home, prior to receiving aircraft...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 31 Mar 2011 09:33

Probably they want cold weather trials which will not be avaliable in India untill December.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Apr 2011 03:32

For sure, based on earlier articles, the plane will be fitted with dummy radar (on the top and some dummy load inside) (India has sent a dummy payload for fitment). Since Embraer is responsible for the certification of the aircraft THEY will take it to Alaska/wherever to get it certified - the Alaska trip is NOT an Indian affair. When it arrives in India it will be fitted with the real stuff - which is meanwhile being integrated in India.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Apr 2011 03:55

This article claims:

The aircraft is likely to be brought to India in the middle of this year after going through a series of tests and certification process, to be conducted by IAF and DRDO, .........

So may be I am wrong on that count. I thought it was the responsibility of the Brazilians to certify the AC.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 01 Apr 2011 04:54

^^^^^

Marut wrote:...The real antenna shall be mounted only after delivery to us this August after which we shall test the antenna within secure airspace of our country....

Rakshaks, believe me; when it comes to testing a novel AEW&C platform, there is no such thing as "secure airspace" anywhere on the planet. The Khans have satellites everywhere that will certainly be listening/gauging/metering/mapping any kind of eSignal coming from the IAF's new kit. This is a guarantee; which I am sure the IAF understands (so their full set of tests will not encompass all features/algorithms for the radars -- best to hold some in reserve for wartime).

The Khans are *bonkers* for satellites. A case in point: I understand that the Soviets had a system of antennae set up on very tall masts, between which they would send highly focussed signal beams; hoping that this would be a secure mode of communication. What did the Khans do? They launched snooping satellites on extremely high geosynchronous orbits, waaaaay off the Russian horizon, in order to catch whatever signal accidently went past the receiving antenna.

Eventually, the Russians got wise, of course, and put an end to that system.

Hmmmmm. I wonder how good a job an AEW&C aircraft can make of finding small, dark, high-orbit satellites?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Apr 2011 06:03

^^^

Interesting story.

Money can work wonders at times.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Apr 2011 06:43

NRao wrote:For sure, based on earlier articles, the plane will be fitted with dummy radar (on the top and some dummy load inside) (India has sent a dummy payload for fitment). Since Embraer is responsible for the certification of the aircraft THEY will take it to Alaska/wherever to get it certified - the Alaska trip is NOT an Indian affair. When it arrives in India it will be fitted with the real stuff - which is meanwhile being integrated in India.

You are right. Even Embraer 170 was tested in Alaska for 9 days (google for it).

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Apr 2011 19:05

India to integrate indigenous airborne radar in July.

Aiming to enhance the Indian Air Force's surveillance and strike capacity, India will begin integrating the indigenously-built Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system atop the Brazilian Embraer aircraft in July, a top defence official said Saturday.

'The first Embraer plane (EMB-1451) will land in India by June-end after its power units have been connected to our airborne early warning radar fitted atop. Integration of its sub-systems will begin in July for user trials,' the defence minister's Scientific Advisor V.K. Saraswat told reporters here Saturday.

India placed the order, valued at $400 million, with Brazilian aerospace major Embraer to supply three aircraft, customised with advanced radars for induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by 2013.

The integration and flight tests will be undertaken in Bangalore by the Centre for Airborne System (CABS) in association with the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) of the state-run Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

'After the first plane was rolled out in February, the primary radar, identification-friend-or-foe (IFF) interrogator, communications and electronic intelligence receivers and data-processing systems are being integrated with the fuselage,' Saraswat said on the margins of the fifth Air Chief Marshal L.M. Katre memorial lecture here.

Embraer will deliver the remaining two aircraft in 2012 and 2013.The aircraft was also modified to suit the Indian weather conditions and will be certified for airworthiness and user trials.

'The airborne radar is designed to detect and distinguish hostile aircraft and missiles, and help enhance IAF's surveillance and strike capability,' Saraswat said after delivering the Katre Memorial Lecture on 'Aerospace Technologies in the 21st century'.

The medium-range system can be used to direct fighter jets and other aircraft to their targets and warn them of enemy aircraft and missiles in the area, keeping a watch on the air and ground activities from miles away.

The EMB-145I aircraft has been modified to carry the Indian-made Active Array Antenna Unit (AAAU) mounted atop the plane's fuselage.

Katre was the 10th IAF chief but served for just 11 months from September 1984 to July 1985 due to his untimely demise. Prior to that, he was chairman of the state-run defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) from March 1983 to September 1984.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Apr 2011 10:04

Cassidian help comes as a boost to AEW&C program

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Apr 2011 14:08

Cassidian Works With India on AEW&C Aircraft
Aviation Week

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 May 2011 16:11

http://vishaljolapara.files.wordpress.c ... iaf_37.jpg
Any pics from the reverse side, showing the air out turn of the radar box?

all processes must be documented well when DRDO involves external agencies. The same should be done, and experience learnt is well integrated into home grown processes along with the products that is to come out.

two thumbs up!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 16 Jun 2011 12:29

Chief of Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Air Chief Marshal P V Naik's Interview By Gulshan Luthra and Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd) for India Strategic Magazine

AWACS

• Air Chief Marshal disclosed that The Last of the Three Phalcon AWACS Had Arrived in India in March and Deployed.

• Two More AWACS Mounted on IL 76 Platforms Had also Been Ordered.

The process to augment the electronic surveillance capability with aerostats – balloons with electronic surveillance radars – was continuing.

Air Chief Marshal Naik also said that the Process to Induct More Midair Refuellers was Progressing. EADS’ Airus 330 MRTT and Rosoboronexport’s IL-78 (Mk 90) are Competing.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 17 Jun 2011 05:57

SaiK wrote:http://vishaljolapara.files.wordpress.c ... iaf_37.jpg
Any pics from the reverse side, showing the air out turn of the radar box?

all processes must be documented well when DRDO involves external agencies. The same should be done, and experience learnt is well integrated into home grown processes along with the products that is to come out.

two thumbs up!

Saik - Sorry for the delayed reply mate,
only these photos up for now.
But i have just emailed Renato about your request, awaiting his reply.......

Cheers - VJ

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 22 Jun 2011 08:48

A New Elta Systems AEW&C Product

Airbus Military and Elta Systems Introduce C295 AEW&C
Defense Update

ALG Capable C-295

Takeoff Run : 2,200 ft (670 m)
Landing Run : 1,050 ft (320 m)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jun 2011 09:37

Juggi G wrote:AWACS - Two More AWACS Mounted on IL 76 Platforms Had also Been Ordered.
Air Chief Marshal Naik also said that the Process to Induct More Midair Refuellers was Progressing. EADS’ Airus 330 MRTT and Rosoboronexport’s IL-78 (Mk 90) are Competing.[/b]

Where are they going to get IL76s and IL78s for these... It looks like all airframes manufactured have already been utilized except for some older airframes in storage. Even the Bear seems to be scavenging airframes for parts to keep its core fleet up and running.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 00:59

Is IAF interested in the Airbus-Military built C-295 platform fitted with a fourth-generation Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW & C) system produced by ELTA Systems? C-295 AEW&Cs is a High-wing STOL turboprop aircraft equipped with ISR sensors and mission management suites but isn't the DRDO AEWCs mounted on a Embraer platform a better option. Does India has the need to have yet another platform in C-295 (after A-50 Phalcon AWACS and Embraer AEWCs)? The source is Mr. Chor!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jul 2011 05:54

Chorgupta is speculating as usual. 2+2=10 in his world

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 14:04

Karan M wrote:Chorgupta is speculating as usual. 2+2=10 in his world

ACM Naik, did not even mention this additional requirement for AEWC&S which Mr Chor seem to be dying to fill. Embraer platform would probably leveraged for 6-10 AEWC&S. does anyone know how many airframes have been ordered from Embraer?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 14:10

Shrinivasan wrote:
Karan M wrote:Chorgupta is speculating as usual. 2+2=10 in his world
ACM Naik, did not even mention this additional requirement for AEWC&S which Mr Chor seem to be dying to fill. Embraer platform would probably leveraged for 6-10 AEWC&S. does anyone know how many airframes have been ordered from Embraer?

Desh seems to have ordered only THREE airframes? hopefully once the first airframe is inducted, they'll order more?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99#Operators
we need atleast 20-25 of these babies to maintain 24x7 coverage along with their larger cousins.

Can our AEWC&S be further developed to create an MPA like P8-i?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jul 2011 23:26

the DRDO AEW&C is currently testing the waters. they will order as many as 20 if things go well, per an interview. my guess is they will wait a bit to see how the initial orders hold up and then work the lessons into a larger base aircraft with more range. perhaps same model as the next tanker aircraft.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Jul 2011 23:47

Rahul M wrote:the DRDO AEW&C is currently testing the waters. they will order as many as 20 if things go well, per an interview. my guess is they will wait a bit to see how the initial orders hold up and then work the lessons into a larger base aircraft with more range. perhaps same model as the next tanker aircraft.

Which means the next set of AEWCS would be based on a different airframe??? why can't we have a SQ of AEWCS (meaning 16-18 #s) on the Embraer airframe while we search for this elusive airframe for our new tanker. this might take years to happen, then IAF would want to learn the ropes of this new platform.. further delay...
Embraer looks like a lean and mean platform and would be ideal. we might fund a JV project to develop an extended range aircraft similar to EMB-145I/EMB-99 for our next set of AEWCS rather than induct yet another platform.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jul 2011 00:05

firstly, one AEW&C sqn would not have that many IMHO. a sqdn is a group meant to carry out a definite job and IAF would be better served to have 4-5 self-sufficient AEW&C units aka sqn's rather than just one or two.

the tanker thing is my guess, IAF/DRDO may or may not think in that way. but the fact remains that the current EMB-145 based system is limited in capability compared to say the Il-76 based phalcon. it is good for a first time effort but both IAF and DRDO is likely to want to move up the ladder once it is done. frankly, there is no good reason not to.
btw, 20 is a big number, other than USAF and RuAF and PLAAF in the future no one makes double figures AFAIK.

p.s one advantage to using popular civilian aircraft as base is that it easy to maintain them.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 00:15

Rahul M wrote:firstly, one AEW&C sqn would not have that many IMHO. a sqdn is a group meant to carry out a definite job and IAF would be better served to have 4-5 self-sufficient AEW&C units aka sqn's rather than just one or two.

Rahul,
I agree, it would be 10-15 airframes in 3-4 SQ qith 3-4 airframes in each. 20 would give us phenomenal coverage (along with sat, Phalcon AWACS, Aerostats, P8i, TU-142 etc).... if dreams come true...

Regarding the usability of a Tanker platform for AEWCS, wouldn't a wide, lumbering airframe have a disadvantage compared to a select BBJ type platform... Boeing 737 would be ideal...see an image of Boeing's Wedgetail below
http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/fil ... tailsm.jpg

Incidentally if our next tanker is also based on the Boeing 737 platform, it would be great!!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jul 2011 00:20

possibly, A330 might be too large, as I said it was my guess, with all the failings that come with it.
but then who knows.

the sad thing is we are not leveraging the 100's of aircraft orders by public and pvt airlines to get a license production.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 00:25

Rahul M wrote:possibly, A330 might be too large, as I said it was my guess, with all the failings that come with it.
but then who knows.
the sad thing is we are not leveraging the 100's of aircraft orders by public and pvt airlines to get a license production.

India DOES NOT PRODUCE ANY aircraft meant for civilian airlines. we seem to be content in supplying few sections for both Boeing and Airbus currently, but this might change if Mahindras, Tatas, L&T and above all Reliance get into the fray. Taneja is too small a company so did not mention it, it currently hands its hands full with UAV work.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Jul 2011 00:39

actually GOI should have taken the initiative and created a common bargaining position incorporating all the domestic buyers, after all the airline industry gets enough sops from GOI. production could have been done by a JV between the major pvt player(s) and HAL.
anyway, we are going OT.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 04 Jul 2011 00:59

Khan may offer the Wedgetail to us.... but i doubt we will get the air-frame alone.

Now after the Russian IL-76 spares mess up its quite clear we need to move on to other platforms. This was the main reason why IAF was reluctant to order more Phalcon's.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 07:14

vishnu.nv wrote:Now after the Russian IL-76 spares mess up its quite clear we need to move on to other platforms. This was the main reason why IAF was reluctant to order more Phalcon's.

According to ACM Naik, IAF has ordered 2 more Phalcons based on the IL-76/A-50 platform