Religion Thread - 10

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Apr 2007 19:39

Raju wrote:I think it is in the spirit of this thread ! Even after so much acrimony, the spirit of accommodation & coexistence is omnipresent, this needs to be reaffirmed. Why be defensive about it ?

I don't agree with Calvin's viewpoint that one should not say Happy Easter on BRF. But you do realise when you say Happy Easter, you are commemorating an event in which the Son rose from the dead, by His Father in full plain view & will of the Holy Spirit - all three of whom are God. But the Trinity has been hounded as a belief of half-baked truths and old folk tales and thus by saying Happy Easter, you are basically recognizing an event which as per the majority of views in here is just plain wrong. But Happy Easter!

AshokS wrote:Flawed logic to suit your flawed agenda....

Except that the US is not constitutionally a Christian country....yet is depicted as such. The map is flawed and India is predominantly a Hindu country and if they want to be consistent in the data they are protraying India should have been represented as such....

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't have an agenda. You can portray India as a Hindu country all you want, but the constitution of India states otherwise and that is supreme. First you go change that.

I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came). India is better off a nation of multi-religious faiths, otherwise we would be sharing the same fate as Pakistan. Happy Easter to you as well

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 08 Apr 2007 19:47

But you do realise when you say Happy Easter, you are commemorating an event in which the Son rose from the dead, by His Father in full plain view & will of the Holy Spirit - all three of whom are God

I am of the view that anything that rises should be encouraged and reaffirmed.

the future of entire mankind rests on this act.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 08 Apr 2007 19:51

Raju wrote:
But you do realise when you say Happy Easter, you are commemorating an event in which the Son rose from the dead, by His Father in full plain view & will of the Holy Spirit - all three of whom are God

I am of the view that anything that rises should be encouraged and reaffirmed.

the future of entire mankind rests on this act.

One of the strongolhds of Dharmic faith pillars, Our knowledge never stops in a book, its never the end of what was revealed.

Anyways My post was a nice one in previous page 5, I putted forward some very nice points there about threat evangelism.

I'm not against abc christians, or muslims at all, but if anyone here supports evangelism or what is happening in the name of conversion is putting a version of illiteracy on the already iliterate peoples is not acceptable.

As i said, Poverty gives the powerful the power to use you however they want be it by education or be it by "imposing" casteism or be it by feeding the iliterates through communal injections.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 08 Apr 2007 19:54

Rakesh, I need not be a Xtian to greet someone Happy Easter. I might greet the person because he is celebrating his festival and i happen to be aware that it is easter today. I have many Muslim friends greet me Happy Diwali, Happy Holi. They dont believe in Prahlad or NaraSimha avtaar!

Frankly, I am quite surprised you raised that point - I had never thought of it as an issue.

rocky · Post by **rocky** » 08 Apr 2007 20:00

Rakesh wrote:I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came).

Thank you very much for these great and kind words. Finally I have someone with whom I can celebrate the gruesome massacre and murder of millions of Indians, a few of whom were my ancestors!

rocky · Post by **rocky** » 08 Apr 2007 20:06

Rakesh wrote:I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came). India is better off a nation of multi-religious faiths, otherwise we would be sharing the same fate as Pakistan.

I hope you realize what you are talking about ... the invasions from the Islamic hordes is what resulted in the creation of Pakistan, so shouldn't you be arguing the opposite?

If this is your attitude towards Bharat, then what are you trying to be a Rakshak of?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 08 Apr 2007 20:11

Rakesh, did you mean babar (barbarian) or Akbar ?

Is this a disconnect between deep South and North India where people aren't exactly aware what happened ??

Joey,

so nice of you to quote me as well as to actually highlight the relevant portion. I am deeply moved.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 08 Apr 2007 20:19

Rakesh,

From my perspective, which I hope, correctly reflects the perspectives of most others on this forum, the arrival and the life of St. Thomas in India was a completely peaceful affair, whereas the arrival of Islamic armies (starting with Ghazni, then Ghori, Aibak, Khilji, Tughluqs and then Babur) are associated with large scale killing. That's what armies do. In this case, religion was a major aspect in the Islamic invasions. For this reason alone, when it comes to spreading religion, I would not put an equivalence between St. Thomas and Babur. (Am assuming that this was some sort of a typo or something).

Raju,
Having lived in North and South, my perspective is that I did not see any major disconnect. But there was definitely an edge to the issue, in the North.

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 08 Apr 2007 20:22

But you do realise when you say Happy Easter, you are commemorating an event in which the Son rose from the dead, by His Father in full plain view & will of the Holy Spirit - all three of whom are God. But the Trinity has been hounded as a belief of half-baked truths and old folk tales and thus by saying Happy Easter, you are basically recognizing an event which as per the majority of views in here is just plain wrong. But Happy Easter!

If I wish some body well in his endevours, it does not mean that I automatically believe in them. It just means "ok mate wish you all the happiness/success in what ever you believe in and I will be happy for you - having said that, what you believe in does not mean anything to me for the purpose of wishing you well"

So thanks for the spin but readers can play those googlies well

I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came).

I know you want to be sarcastic here but please understand than in your sarcasm, you are looking like a real EJs which you are not.

India has always been a multi cultural/ multi religious society - don't you find it curious that so much diversity and acceptance of differnt views exists only in India and NO OTHER part in the world?

G Subramaniam · Post by **G Subramaniam** » 08 Apr 2007 20:41

I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came).

--

--
Hindus had an ISLAMIC experience with the xtian saint Saint Gregorius,
In 300AD, Saint Gregorius converted the Armenian king to xtianity
and destroyed the NRI hindu colony and demolished their temple

And more recently an ISLAMIC experience with St.Xavier in Goa
--

This is the problem with Hindus
Has anyone read the St.Thomas Gospels

--

Per the Church, the St.Thomas gospels are not canonical
They are part of the apocrypha ( not proven )
texts
The St.Thomas Gospels are also part of the Gnostic gospels, a heresy

Per the St.Thomas Gospels,
India was a land full of wild asses
The only part of India which you find wild asses is in Kutch, not kerala

The St.Thomas Gospels are part of the 'Acts of Thomas'
This text calls Thomas the biological twin of Jesus, which violates the virgin birth doctrine

Visit hamsa.org to get to the bottom of this.

Why settle for a half-Thomas peddled by the DIE hindu, when you can get the full-Thomas from the EJ

The earliest dated xtian presence in India dates from 345AD, and Thomans Knanaya the merchant, not Thomas the saint

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 08 Apr 2007 20:45

Rakesh wrote:I for one am glad that St Thomas came to India in 52 AD and also the Islamic hordes that came to India during the time of Babur (or whenever they came). India is better off a nation of multi-religious faiths, otherwise we would be sharing the same fate as Pakistan.

Baffling view but unsurprising.

How do you make the jump from IROP to HROI in a theocratic sense? When the Hindu India of the past has no such credible history or view or a theological driven exclusivist and totalitarian ideology? Nor is there any credible system of governance to execute any such imagined ideology.

The above comment is one the root causes of fear of an Indian narrative. It automatically assumes that any such narrative will be exclusivist and discriminatory (in a substantive way).

The costs of this negative narrative from Indian minorities resulting in the bogey of secularism is that the Indian nation has to have a divorce from its native ways, thoughts and practices.

To make a point, the objection to Vande Mataram and the limiting of the national song to only the first two stanzas is a direct result of this negative narrative.

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 08 Apr 2007 21:01

My reading of Rakesh's post is that he is saying that regardless of what happened in the past, we now have a multi-religious population, and that he is glad that the population is multi-religious. It appears that the sensitivity of people is forcing a politically correct language, where anything positive that is said about the invasions, or their result automatically results in a stereotype. We have a similar instance in regard to the Peshwas and Sajan/Abhijit earlier. This kind of sensitivity does not engender open multilogue.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 08 Apr 2007 21:25

G Subramaniam wrote:In the process they acquired the raw materials for a new cult, the St. Thomas legend, which would prove to be their most enduring "gift" to Mylaporeâ€”along with a large number of churches that have been built on temple sites around the southern coasts.

is the highlighted part generally agreed upon?

if so, it is no different from Islamists and a clear sign of intolerance ... building one's own church and mosques can be considered "faith", but removing someone else's temples is barbarianism ...

would folks agree that Christianity in Goa was built up on barbaric principles?

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 08 Apr 2007 21:27

GS: Please desist from destroying these threads with the copy from hamsa. Please direct us to the specific paragraph, and leave the rest as a link.

The link is http://www.hamsa.org

All the commentary about Thomas starts at http://www.hamsa.org/01.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2007 21:32

Whoops - 4-5 posts got deleted just as I was reading them.

Can we have a link please? Did you delete them Calvin?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2007 21:37

G Subramaniam had posted excerpts from the following site

http://hamsa.org/

According to Christian leaders in India, the apostle Thomas came to India in 52 A.D., founded the Syrian Christian Church, and was killed by the fanatical Brahmins in 72 A.D. Near the site of his martyrdom, the St. Thomas Church was built.

In fact this apostle never came to India. The Christian community in South India was founded by a merchant Thomas Cananeus in 345 A.D. (a name which readily explains the Thomas legend).

In Catholic universities in Europe, the myth of the apostle Thomas going to India is no longer taught as history, but in India it is still considered useful.

Hamsa.org explores how the myth of Saint Thomas in India arose and why it has been perpetuated despite the absence of any historical basis in truth.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 08 Apr 2007 21:38

Calvin wrote: It appears that the sensitivity of people is forcing a politically correct language, where anything positive that is said about the invasions, or their result automatically results in a stereotype..

Can you tell me what "positives" we had from the invasions ! geez ! now we had to debate the "positives" of invasions ! why is it that pro-missionery people or pro-islamist people always try to find "positives" from british imperialism and islamic invasions !

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 08 Apr 2007 21:40

You too Rakesh! This is sad.

I am just hoping that I misread what you meant.

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 08 Apr 2007 21:46

would folks agree that Christianity in Goa was built up on barbaric principles?

If by "barbaric principles" you mean "the use of force", there is little to disagree with there. As for the building of churches on destroyed temples, it would seem that this would happen in two instances:

(a) an invading army engaging in "pillage and plunder" - and since the Western and Eastern coasts have seen plenty of this, it is likely that there are a number of such destroyed temples

(b) an en masse conversion of a locality, where the converted population decided to destroy their old and rebuild a new place of worship. I have heard stories of this, but do not know how accurate these stories are.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2007 21:46

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14658b.htm
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Thomas the Apostle

Little is recorded of St. Thomas the Apostle, nevertheless thanks to the fourth Gospel his personality is clearer to us than that of some others of the Twelve. His name occurs in all the lists of the Synoptists (Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18; Luke 6, cf. Acts 1:13), but in St. John he plays a distinctive part. First, when Jesus announced His intention of returning to Judea to visit Lazarus, "Thomas" who is called Didymus [the twin], said to his fellow disciples: "Let us also go, that we may die with him" (John 11:16). Again it was St. Thomas who during the discourse before the Last Supper raised an objection: "Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?" (John 14:5). But more especially St. Thomas is remembered for his incredulity when the other Apostles announced Christ's Resurrection to him: "Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe" (John 20:25); but eight days later he made his act of faith, drawing down the rebuke of Jesus: "Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed" (John 20:29).

More relevant to the discussion here

Now it is certainly a remarkable fact that about the year A.D. 46 a king was reigning over that part of Asia south of Himalayas now represented by Afghanistan, Baluchistan, the Punjab, and Sind, who bore the name Gondophernes or Guduphara. This we know both from the discovery of coins, some of the Parthian type with Greek legends, others of the Indian types with the legends in an Indian dialect in Kharoshthi characters. Despite sundry minor variations the identity of the name with the Gundafor of the "Acta Thomae" is unmistakable and is hardly disputed. Further we have the evidence of the Takht-i-Bahi inscription, which is dated and which the best specialists accept as establishing the King Gunduphara probably began to reign about A.D. 20 and was still reigning in 46. Again there are excellent reasons for believing that Misdai or Mazdai may well be transformation of a Hindu name made on the Iranian soil. In this case it will probably represent a certain King Vasudeva of Mathura, a successor of Kanishka. No doubt it can be urged that the Gnostic romancer who wrote the "Acta Thomae" may have adopted a few historical Indian names to lend verisimilitude to his fabrication, but as Mr. Fleet urges in his severely critical paper "the names put forward here in connection with St.Thomas are distinctly not such as have lived in Indian story and tradition" (Joul. of R. Asiatic Soc.,1905, p.235).

On the other hand, though the tradition that St. Thomas preached in "India" was widely spread in both East and West and is to be found in such writers as Ephraem Syrus, Ambrose,Paulinus, Jerome, and, later Gregory of Tours and others, still it is difficult to discover any adequate support for the long-accepted belief that St. Thomas pushed his missionary journeys as far south as Mylapore, not far from Madras, and there suffered martyrdom. In that region is still to be found a granite bas-relief cross with a Pahlavi (ancient Persian) inscription dating from the seventh century, and the tradition that it was here that St. Thomas laid down his life is locally very strong. Certain it is also that on the Malabar or west coast of southern India a body of Christians still exists using a form of Syriac for its liturgical language. Whether this Church dates from the time of St. Thomas the Apostle (there was a Syro-Chaldean bishop John "from India and Persia" who assisted at the Council of Nicea in 325) or whether the Gospel was first preached there in 345 owing to the Persian persecution under Shapur (or Sapor), or whether the Syrian missionaries who accompanied a certain Thomas Cana penetrated to the Malabar coast about the year 745 seems difficult to determine. We know only that in the sixth century Cosmas Indicopleustes speaks of the existence of Christians at Male (? Malabar) under a bishop who had been consecrated in Persia. King Alfred the Great is stated in the "Anglo-Saxon Chronicle" to have sent an expedition to establish relations with these Christians of the Far East. On the other hand the reputed relics of St. Thomas were certainly at Edessa in the fourth century, and there they remained until they were translated to Chios in 1258 and towards to Ortona. The improbable suggestion that St. Thomas preached in America (American Eccles. Rev., 1899, pp.1-18 ) is based upon a misunderstanding of the text of the Acts of Apostles (i, 8; cf. Berchet "Fonte italiane per la storia della scoperta del Nuovo Mondo", II, 236, and I, 44).

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Apr 2007 21:50

Rakesh's post is saying that regardless of what happened in the past, we now have a multi-religious population, and that he is glad that the population is multi-religious.

Globalization would have ensured mutireligious population in the world without the bloodshed of jihad or crusades.

Hatred created due to bloodshed and destruction of cultures will endure millennium years and show up in everyday life.
Biggest example today world wide is the Christian-Jew and Christian Muslim experience which is still working its way in geopolitics.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 08 Apr 2007 21:50

Alok, Greg,

Alok,

Returning from Neat-Chai's solitude, as you are.

You had said that Newton and Mendel's religiosity had nothing to do with their science.

Newton, Keppler, etc did attribute their scientific curiosity and findings to religion.

In fact one could say that the linearity of their models is a direct result of their particular religious views - a single god as the ultimate watchmaker.

Someone who constructed the universe along mechanical lines, wound it up and lets it go on.

The thinking goes, god created the universe according to set 'laws', these laws are knowable, and knowing them brings you closer to god.

This kind of view is different from the literalist textual fundamentalists, and one the 'established' Christian churches tended to favour after the reformation, ie placing Aristotlean logic above literal readings of the bible.

Of course as you have pointed out, there are limitations to linear and Aristotlean logic.

Greg,

Wouldnt you agree that Hinduism's conception of the universe could be useful, as opposed to literalist reading of Hindu texts?

And that there are limitations to linear thinking?

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 08 Apr 2007 21:52

Can you tell me what "positives" we had from the invasions

This is highly dependent on your point of view. A detested event can still *result* in aspects that are redeeming. An example would be a baby born from a rape.

Globalization would have ensured mutireligious population in the world without the bloodshed of jihad or crusades.

This is correct. It would have been preferable if the rapist actually romanced the girl, and married her before he knocked her up.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we condemn the baby.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2007 21:53

From Wikipedia

While exploring the Malabar coast of Kerala, South India in 1498, the Portuguese encountered Christians who traced their foundations to Thomas. However, the Catholic Portuguese did not accept the legitimacy of local Malabar traditions, and they began to impose Roman Catholic practices upon the Saint Thomas Christians. Others resisted and remained fully within the various Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian traditions. A number have since joined other Christian denominations.

The idea that Thomas even came to South India is, however, contested by some. Given that the primary evidence for the same is oral tradition,[6] skeptics have suggested that the official Keralite Christian version of events may not be completely true.[7] In 2006, even the Pope stated that Thomas only went as far as western India,[8] raising much controversy in Kerala.

and about St Thomas in South America

In effect, the supposed apostolic evangelization of Latin America gave Christianity in these lands a direct independent link with one of Jesus' disciples, reducing the Christinization carried out by Spanish and Portuguese clerics to the status of "a secondary foundation" - with a corresponding reduction in the prestige and legitimacy of the conquistadors under whose wing these missionaries had come, and of the colonial rule established by these conquistadors. By claiming St. Thomas as their founder, Latin American Christians were no less than rejecting the status of a late off-shoot of the Spanish and Portuguese Churches and claiming to be co-eval - if not senior - with Iberian Christianity itself.

Due to such implications, the church hierarchy was far more reluctant to give to the Latin American legends and myths associated with St. Thomas the same kind of credence which it gave to the equivalent myths of the Syrian Christians in South India - where direct Iberian colonial rule was limited to small enclaves and there were not such far-reaching implications.

Hmmmm...

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 08 Apr 2007 21:56

It is nice of people to commemorate multireligious Indian societies but pray tell why then seek to montheise these societies? Is that not hypocritical and self-contradictory? Or is there little of the rational in the revealed religions irrespective of Greek fantasies? Is there an ulterior motive or is it just doing the heathens a favour by bringing them the light? But does that very act not make for your otherwise damned souls easier to escape perdition?

These are difficult questions. Forgive me if they put some in an uncomfortable postion.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2007 21:56

Calvin wrote: This is correct. It would have been preferable if the rapist actually romanced the girl, and married her before he knocked her up.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we condemn the baby.

No we must not condemn the baby.

But we must not deny the rape either.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Apr 2007 22:00

shiv wrote:
Calvin wrote: This is correct. It would have been preferable if the rapist actually romanced the girl, and married her before he knocked her up.

Nevertheless, that doesn't mean we condemn the baby.
No we must not condemn the baby.

But we must not deny the rape either.

Also how to make sure that rape does not happen by not welcoming the rape as legitimate.

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 08 Apr 2007 22:04

For those of us that are from Kerala and the Syrian Christian tradition, there is a clear distinction between Knanaya Christians (Catholics and Orthodox Christians) and other Syrian Christians (Orthodox, Syro Malabar Catholic, and Malankara Syrian Catholic).

The Knanaya Christians trace their history to 72 Syrians (or some such number) that accompanied Thomas of Cana (Cannananeus, or whatever) who arrived in the 4th century (http://www.ghg.net/knanaya/history/). These fellows are extremely proud of their heritage, and maintain an endogamous tradition. Their prayers and hymns are said to have much in common with that of the Jews of Cochin.

The other Syrian Christians, although they do have traces of Syriac(Aramaic) in their rituals have generally significant difference with teh Knanaya rites.

For the purposes of the Catholic Church's administration in India, the Knanaya Catholics are a part of the Syro Malabar Catholic Church, with the exception that the Syro Malabar can select their own bishops, but the Knanaya cannot and need approval from Rome for their selections. The Malankara Syrian Catholics, like the Syro Malabar can also select their own bishops. The other rite, is what is called the "Latin Rite" which is the Roman Catholic Rite, and is predominant elsewhere in India.

Calvin · Post by **Calvin** » 08 Apr 2007 22:05

Also how to make sure that rape does not happen by not welcoming the rape as legitimate.

Rakesh should speak for himself on this, but I don't think he was suggesting that the invasion itself was legitimate or appreciated.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Apr 2007 22:08

It is still a one way multireligious in many countries such as KSA. Even western countries do not recognize eastern religious traditions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Apr 2007 22:10

Goa inquisition

http://goacentral.com/Goahistory/TheGoaInquisition.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/14inter1.htm

I discovered that historians consider the Goa Inquisition the most merciless and cruel ever developed. It was a machinery of death. A large number of Hindus were first converted and then persecuted from 1560 all the way to 1812!

Over that period of 252 years, any man, woman, or child living in Goa could be arrested and tortured for simply whispering a prayer or keeping a small idol at home. Many Hindus -- and some former Jews, as well -- languished in special Inquisitional prisons, some for four, five, or six years at a time.

I was horrified to learn about this, of course. And I was shocked that my friends in Portugal knew nothing about it. The Portuguese tend to think of Goa as the glorious capital of the spice trade, and they believe -- erroneously -- that people of different ethnic backgrounds lived there in tolerance and tranquillity. They know nothing about the terror that the Portuguese brought to India. They know nothing of how their fundamentalist religious leaders made so many suffer.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 08 Apr 2007 22:17

Johann,

Neat-chai is good ...

... btw, in India it was pronounced closer to Neat-sha, while in the US folks say Neechi (like the leechi fruit) ... how would Neat-chai have said it himself?

As for Newton, Kepler et al, yes, they were mechanists ... I also agree that it is very difficult to remove the concept of "creation" from the minds of cosmologists that grew up with that concept in a religious context ... they are applying it to science without realizing it ...

yesterday, I had an hour long conversation with a cosmologist (who is credited with accurately extracting the age of the universe from cosmic microwave background measurements) on this topic ... he admitted to being agnostic, but believing in a mechanical model of the universe as his "best guess" ...

I did my best to be a Valkan but he did not agree that a timeless cyclic universe was a better model because it removed a singularity ... I have observed this on several occasions ...

for some reason, folks treat Paul Steinhardt with amused indulgence at conferences ... his website has some interesting readings ...

as is well known, Einstein never fully bought into a probabilistic universe with his famous quote of "god does not play dice" ... clearly, he had a linear model in his mind ... what is surprising is that it came from an individual who changed the thinking about "time" forever ... even when the Einstein-Padofsky-Rosen paradox was resolved by Pauli, he stubbornly spent his time trying to think of new objections ...

finally, IMO, the answer lies in the loophole in the proof of Bell's Inequality that hidden variables can exist only if they are tachyonic ... folks today are engaging in M-brane theories which make gravity weak because it operates in extra dimensions while the reast of the forces are constrained to act on a 4-dimensional surface ... IMO, they are engaged in inventing hidden variables ... if only they were to make extra-dimensional interactions tachyonic, they would achieve a return to mechanical universe ... however, tachyonic interactions may force them to give up the linear model ... we live in interesting times ...

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 08 Apr 2007 22:28

folks let us give Rakesh a chance to explain himself, before we do an autopsy on his statement.

this is the least we can do.

GSub, from what I was told by a Syrian xtian scholar on the history of Thomas in Kerala, thomas Cananite who believed to be a manichean (akin to Zorastrianism), rather than a Christian. Ofcourse Manicheanism included Christian beliefs as well. And it is he who is buried in Mylapore, because the Church at Mylapore belonged to Chettiars who believed in Manicheanism until the religion fell in popularity and they ltr converted to Christianity. St. Thomas had just made a short port-to-port visit chasing Essenian Jews who fled after Roman invasion and around 10000 jews migrated to a port near Cochin.

The Syrian Christians believed that their documents were collected by the Portuguese Bishop Alexis Menezes and were burnt in the Synod at Udayamperoor in apprx 1599 AD. Some of the documents which were removed by the Portuguese about the Syrian Christians were also destroyed as a result of the big fire in the Lisbon library. The Portuguese succeeded in subverting Christian history in Kerala to suit them and also as a snub to the Syrian Christians for not cooperating with them and turned the Chetty's church in TN as the place were St. Thomas was buried. This was to mock the Syrian xtians etc.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 08 Apr 2007 22:32

Johann, Valkan, Bade et al,

you might enjoy this discourse in verse:

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/robinson.pdf

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 08 Apr 2007 22:39

American theocrats
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/ ... v-how.html

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 08 Apr 2007 23:12

Alok:

yesterday, I had an hour long conversation with a cosmologist (who is credited with accurately extracting the age of the universe from cosmic microwave background measurements) on this topic ... he admitted to being agnostic, but believing in a mechanical model of the universe as his "best guess" ...

Did you tell Arno Penzias that everything he has done was already done 3,000 years ago and was in the vedic scriptures?

But if he wuz a hindu he would already know that.

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 08 Apr 2007 23:18

nice google, but it ain't Arno ... to learn the truth, you have to do a better literature search ...

Arno is in his mid-seventies ... what he did was not that great ... the Nobel should have gone to Dicke ...

assuming you will meet Arno in heaven when you are both there ... mind reporting back from there about how Arno felt about Dicke? ... I am assuming that you have your economy class supersaver one-way ticket to Suburban Heaven International already purchased ...

surely, your god dude owes it to you for the deep concern you have for tribals in India ...

Alok_N · Post by **Alok_N** » 08 Apr 2007 23:23

seriously, I have never said that everything that was done in science is in the Vedas ...

a troll like TSJ can be slow, so I will do it slowly ...

H-i-n-d-u T-h-o-u-g-h-t i-s n-o-t i-n c-o-n-t-r-a-d-i-c-t-i-o-n t-o s-c-i-e-n-c-e ...

colors are looked down upon, so I can't write it in crayons for TSJ's benefit ...

however, the troll should be prepared for serious abuse to him and his god dude if he deliberately posts crap ...

go to church, say a thousand Hail Mary Poppins and you shall be forgiven ...

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 08 Apr 2007 23:29

Alok_N wrote:nice google, but it ain't Arno ... to learn the truth, you have to do a better literature search ...

Arno is in his mid-seventies ... what he did was not that great ... the Nobel should have gone to Dicke ...

assuming you will meet Arno in heaven when you are both there ... mind reporting back from there about how Arno felt about Dicke? ... I am assuming that you have your economy class supersaver one-way ticket to Suburban Heaven International already purchased ...

surely, your god dude owes it to you for the deep concern you have for tribals in India ...

I'm not so sure about me going to heaven, but I damn sure know what it takes and therefore who is going straight to hell. The filter has already been programmed on that one.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 08 Apr 2007 23:32

nice google, but it ain't Arno

I don't have to google to know about Arno Penzias and cosmic back ground radiation. I subscribe to the Reader's Digest.

Bharat Rakshak

Religion Thread - 10

Re: Treason of Syrian Xtians with Portuguese invaders