Tracking Errors in Defence reporting

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 23 Feb 2010 12:13

IAF has “grounded” its MiG-27 fleet for checks after one of the `swing-wing’ strike fighters crashed in West Bengal on February 16.

IDRW

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 23 Feb 2010 12:44

smpratik wrote:
IAF has “grounded” its MiG-27 fleet for checks after one of the `swing-wing’ strike fighters crashed in West Bengal on February 16.
IDRW

Aircraft having variable Sweep wings like the F-14, Mig-23 and Mig27 are called "Swing-Wing" aircraft. What is the mistake here?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Feb 2010 12:51

A swing-wing is a wing configuration that allows it to alter its planform for various flight conditions. This allows it to take advantage of the aerodynamics of a swept wing at high speeds while avoiding the drawbacks of such a design at lower speeds. It is successful in this respect, but the added mass and complexity required counter the benefits and stand in the way of widespread adoption. The term variable-geometry is often used synonymously with swing-wing, though strictly speaking swing-wing is a specific type of variable geometry.
Wing.tomcat.unswept.750pix.jpg

F-14 Tomcat with wings unswept
Wing.tomcat.vapour.arp.750pix.jpg

F-14 Tomcat with wings swept
Swing-wing aircraft developed from earlier experimental aircraft that were built to study the effects of a simple swept wing. The first of these was the Messerschmitt Me P.1101 whose sweep angle could be changed on the ground. A number of test flights were carried out at various angles to determine the tradeoffs.

At the end of World War II the P.1101 was taken to the United States for further study at Bell Aircraft, where versions were built that could vary their wing angle in flight. One problem discovered while testing the Bell X-5 was that as the wing pivoted rearward, the center of lift also moved to the rear, pushing the nose down. A system to compensate for this basic effect had to be added for any such design to be viable.

The swing-wing is most useful for those aircraft that fly at a wide range of speeds, and for this reason it has been used primarily in military aircraft.

A swing-wing was tried on the Grumman F10F Jaguar in 1952, but the F10F proved a failure and aroused no serious interest in variable sweep by the US Navy. The idea was again revived in the early 1960s as a way to reconcile ever-growing aircraft weights (and thus wing loading) with the need to provide reasonable takeoff and landing performance. The United States adopted this configuration for the TFX (Tactical Fighter Experimental) program, which emerged as the General Dynamics F-111, the first production swing-wing aircraft.

Immediately post war Barnes Wallis had started work on the variable geometry to maximise the economy of supersonic flight. Initial work was on the military "Wild Goose" project, then he went onto the "Swallow", intended to achieve a return flight Europe to Australia in 10 hours. He successfully tested a model above Mach 2 in the 1950's but government backing was withdrawn. Wallis and his team presented their work to the Americans seeking a grant to continue their studies but none was forthcoming.

Similar requirements in the Soviet Union also led TsAGI, the Soviet aerodynamics bureau, to explore the possibilities of variable geometry. TsAGI evolved two distinct planforms, differing mainly in the distance (expressed as a percentage of total wingspan) between the wing pivots. A wider spacing not only reduced the negative aerodynamic effects of changing wing sweep, but also provided a larger fixed wing section which could be used for landing gear or stores pylons. This could, in fact, be adapted to more-or-less existing airframes, which the Soviets soon did, with the Sukhoi Su-17 (based on the earlier swept wing Sukhoi Su-7) and the Tupolev Tu-22M (based on the Tupolev Tu-22). The limitation of the wide spacing, however, was that it reduced the benefits of variable geometry as much as it reduced their technical difficulties. For the new, "clean-sheet" Soviet designs, TsAGI devised a more narrowly spaced arrangement similar to that of the F-111. This design was used (albeit at different scales) for the MiG-23 fighter and the Sukhoi Su-24 interdictor, which flew in prototype form at the end of the 1960s, entering service in the early 1970s.

A European consortium, meanwhile, adopted variable geometry for the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) project that emerged as the Panavia Tornado. This was an interdictor and stand-off interceptor similar in function to the F-111, albeit on a smaller scale. Meanwhile, the U.S. Navy arranged to replace the disastrous, abortive F-111B fleet interceptor with the Grumman F-14 Tomcat. Swing-wings were seen as a way to reconcile the low landing speeds necessary for carrier fighters with the fighter's role as a high-speed interceptor. As a side effect, though maneuverability was not a design aim, the F-14 was remarkably agile, despite its underpowered engines. It was far more maneuverable than the F-111, the Tornado, or any of the Soviet swing-wing aircraft due to lower effective wing loading (thanks to a 'pancake' fuselage that provided additional lift) and an automatic wing sweep. Rockwell, meanwhile, adopted variable geometry for the Advanced Manned Strategic Bomber (AMSA) program that produced the B-1 Lancer bomber, intended to provide an optimum combination of high-speed cruising efficiency and fast, supersonic penetration speeds at extremely low level. The last swing-wing military aircraft to date was the Soviet Tupolev Tu-160 'Blackjack,' which first flew in 1980.

A swing-wing was also used by Boeing's entry in the FAA's study for a supersonic transport, the 2707. However during the design stage it became clear that the mechanism was so large that it would leave almost no room in the cabin for seats. The design was later abandoned in favor of a more "classic" delta wing.

While variable geometry provides many advantages, particularly in takeoff distance, load-carrying ability, and the fast, low-level penetration role, swing wings impose a considerable penalty in weight and complexity. The advent of relaxed stability flight control systems in the 1970s negated many of the disadvantages of a fixed platform, and no new swing-wing aircraft have been built since the Tu-160.

Swing Wing

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 23 Feb 2010 16:58

Do the MiG-27s have swing wing capability ???? I thought its base version the MiG-23 has this capability. If the MiG-27s has this than I am sorry, never really knew that. Of all the fighter in IAF and the world I haven't read much about the MiG-27.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 23 Feb 2010 17:01

Yes, the '27's are Swing Wing too.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 23 Feb 2010 17:06

Sorry

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 23 Feb 2010 18:45

? Dont be. BR is where you come to learn!

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 23 Feb 2010 23:38

http://www.bharatrakshak.com/NEWS/newsr ... wsid=12437

As reported in the Asian Age... and notice who the author is???

The MRCA trials encompass the F-16 and F-18 from the United States, the MiG-35 from Russia, the Rafale from France, the Eurofighter Typhoon from a consortium of the European Union, and the Saab Viggen from Sweden, each a formidable contender in its own right. The trials will be under constant national and international scrutiny by the Indian government, the competing manufacturers and their governments as well as the aviation industry in general. Foreign intelligence services would also be undoubtedly watching from the sidelines, particularly of those countries with whom India’s relationships have traditionally been adversarial.

Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Feb 2010 00:49

this is just a careless mistake, should have been filtered at editing stage. no use shooting the General who knows his stuff.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 24 Feb 2010 23:32

Russia will supply S-300 missiles to Iran: Lavrov

MOSCOW: Russia will supply the S-300 Patriot class air defence missiles to Iran after some 'technical' issues are sorted out in the deal that is objected to by the US and Israel.

................

Guess someone forgot to give them the memo!!! S300 AND PATRIOT are 2 DIFFRENT ADM's from DIFFERENT country!!!!!!

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 06 Mar 2010 00:09

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?675957

After the accident, the SPAT is grounded pending inquiry after two aeroplanes crashed into a two-storey residential building during the air show at Hyderabad. The two naval pilots – Cdr Suresh K Maurya, 39, and his co-pilot Lt Cdr Rahul Nair, 33, had died in the crash.

Talk about adding false fuel to the fire!

HarishV · Post by **HarishV** » 14 Mar 2010 08:17

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/mar/ ... sunday.htm

Is the "advanced air defence" missile abbreviated as AAD or ADD?

The target missile, a modified indigenously built 'Prithvi' posing as an enemy missile, would first be lifted off from a mobile launcher from the ITR at Chandipur-on-sea and the interceptor AAD missile ...

The seven-meter-long ADD interceptor is a single stage solid rocket-propelled guided missile

I always thought ADD was something that kids had...

Looks like the reporter had ADD while writing, as s/he eases in and out of it!

D_Prem · Post by **D_Prem** » 14 Mar 2010 08:20

I think the reporter got confused by all the acronyms floating around ...AAD, PAD, ABM, BMD ... spell checker obviously wouldnt have caught this mistake either.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 25 Mar 2010 20:03

http://sify.com/finance/hal-sunabeda-un ... hhcge.html

The engine division of HAL has a long term plan to undertake manufacture of AL-31FP engines for Sukhoi-30 KLI aircraft under license, sources said.

MKI?

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Mar 2010 03:04

Dhanush on Atkin's diet (see photo)

Why our missiles do not fly

From above:

Prithvi, the first ballistic missile developed under the country's prestigious Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), has the capability to carry 500 kg of warhead and has liquid propulsion twine engine.

There you go, there is twine in the engine(s).

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 31 Mar 2010 04:47

US has excellent military relationship with India: Pantagon
The editor's pants will indeed be gone!

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 07 Apr 2010 20:46

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/625 ... enous.html

Rao said GTRE is now looking to reduce the weight of the Kaveri engine to 50 kg from 60 kg. "It has to be fine-tuned. We will go in for lot of optimisation in future".

Damn! And they went and put in a GE engine weighing a ton. No wonder the LCA is overweight.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Apr 2010 04:58

Mumbai to get its very own MiG 27 fighter plane

....The custom of donating reputed carriers, aircraft and tanks has become a part of city’s beautification efforts. The state government is now thinking of turning INS Vikrant, the first aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy that was decommissioned on January 31, 1997, into a museum. The ship played a key role in the Indo-Pak war in 1997.

Damn! There was an Indo-Pak war in 1997 and we missed it!

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 08 Apr 2010 18:32

nachiket wrote:Mumbai to get its very own MiG 27 fighter plane
....The custom of donating reputed carriers, aircraft and tanks has become a part of city’s beautification efforts. The state government is now thinking of turning INS Vikrant, the first aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy that was decommissioned on January 31, 1997, into a museum. The ship played a key role in the Indo-Pak war in 1997.
Damn! There was an Indo-Pak war in 1997 and we missed it!

You beat me to it!! You see, during the 1997 war, Pakistan attacked and occupied parts of the submerged city of Dwarka. Indian Army repelled them with the help of 25 Para SF, and even called in Mig 22 aircraft to bomb the key port cities of Harappa and Mohenjo Daro. The INS Vikrant, as the article points out, sunk the PNS Bismarck in a long and drawn out battle.
Jai Hind!

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 27 Apr 2010 22:16

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12813

At the end of the article it is written in italics "Mig 29 photo". I cannot identify the aircraft depicted myself, but it sure as hell isn't Mig 29!!
The roundel is that of Russian air force, but doesn't seem to resemble any aircraft in the Russian inventory. Which aircraft is it then?

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Apr 2010 22:30

atreya wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12813

At the end of the article it is written in italics "Mig 29 photo". I cannot identify the aircraft depicted myself, but it sure as hell isn't Mig 29!!
The roundel is that of Russian air force, but doesn't seem to resemble any aircraft in the Russian inventory. Which aircraft is it then?

Isn't that a Mig-31?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 27 Apr 2010 22:40

^^ Yes, it is a MiG 31.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 27 Apr 2010 22:47

tsriram wrote:
atreya wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12813

At the end of the article it is written in italics "Mig 29 photo". I cannot identify the aircraft depicted myself, but it sure as hell isn't Mig 29!!
The roundel is that of Russian air force, but doesn't seem to resemble any aircraft in the Russian inventory. Which aircraft is it then?
Isn't that a Mig-31?

You're right. Looks like a Mig 31. Damn, my aircraft identification skills!

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 18 Jun 2010 14:26

Came across a rubbish article about the latest prithvi test. DDMitis

The Indian Army's variant of the Prithvi-II was test-fired for the first time in May 2008 even though it was inducted as early as 2006.

Great !

The missile can also be equipped with multiple payloads, to be dispensed by the missile during its flight.

The Prithvi-II uses an inertial guidance system, and its accuracy has likely been enhanced with the addition of a Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) system on the warhead. It is possible that the warhead uses a radar correlation terminal guidance system.

A ballistic missile that is radar guided?

The strap-down inertial guidance system has a twin microprocessor-based computer integrated with interrupt-driven, real time software.

Its navigation system guides it to the target within a CEP (Circular Error Probable) equal to .01% of its range. The missile's high accuracy enables it to target enemy military targets effectively, making it a battlefield weapon. It is reported that mobile targets can be attacked with Prithvi-II missiles using Unmanned Arial Vehicles (UAVs).

Any missile using slower than real time processing of data? UAVs are raining Prithvi's all over - run for cover

The missile has the ability to manoeuvre up to 15°, extending its range into the atmosphere.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 18 Jun 2010 23:18

atreya wrote:Any missile using slower than real time processing of data? UAVs are raining Prithvi's all over - run for cover

Probably means the UAVs close to the target area can be used for terminal guidance in case of mobile targets.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 24 Jun 2010 16:08

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-g ... t/637758/0

The six IAF SU 30MKIs along with the Mirage-2000-5 and Rafale and the F-16 were engaged in various air defence

I thought the Mirage 2000-5 was planned but never produced and thus, never entered into service.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 24 Jun 2010 16:18

atreya wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-g ... t/637758/0
The six IAF SU 30MKIs along with the Mirage-2000-5 and Rafale and the F-16 were engaged in various air defence
I thought the Mirage 2000-5 was planned but never produced and thus, never entered into service.

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/def ... 2.html?L=1

Operational experience, especially within multinational forces, has shown the need for an increased fuel capacity and firepower. This requirement has been fulfilled with the introduction of the Mirage 2000-5 in operational service in 1997.

As new markets were conquered by the Mirage 2000-5, the users of the earlier versions became interested in the aircraft new capabilities.
New Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 aircraft complete existing fleets, and operational aircraft are modernised to gain the same operational capabilities.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 incorporates new technologies and functionalities often derived from the experience gained in the RAFALE aircraft development.
The Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 is ideally suited to interception and air superiority missions.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 24 Jun 2010 22:24

atreya wrote:http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-g ... t/637758/0
The six IAF SU 30MKIs along with the Mirage-2000-5 and Rafale and the F-16 were engaged in various air defence
I thought the Mirage 2000-5 was planned but never produced and thus, never entered into service.

The glaring error in that report is the amazing picture accompanying it. Presenting the latest version of the F-16:

The caption reads:

The IAF has sparred with the Block 52 version of the fighter — which is considered to be a generation ahead of the existing F 16 fleet of the PAF.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 24 Jun 2010 22:44

@ Shameek
I spotted that error. But I thought, this is too big a DDMitis. I couldn't accept that such an error could be made. Thought maybe, its just a problem of the Internet, or something else. Thats the reason I posted the Mirage 2000-5 error.

@ Krishnan
I stand corrected, then. The Mirage 2000-5 was withdrawn from the MMRCA deal to be replaced with the Rafale. So I thought that the aircraft was never produced.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 24 Jun 2010 22:54

^^ That was not directed at you. And yes, such mistakes have been made earlier too. Didn't we recently have a TV program glorifying the Mi 35 as the Apache.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 24 Jun 2010 23:13

Shameek wrote:^^ That was not directed at you. And yes, such mistakes have been made earlier too. Didn't we recently have a TV program glorifying the Mi 35 as the Apache.

TV programme? I missed it!! I was busy taking a tour of the Indian Army's INS Talwar airbase

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 25 Jun 2010 09:26

^^ It was a feature on the LCH that also had a bunch of other helos.

I was busy taking a tour of the Indian Army's INS Talwar airbase

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2010 10:28

This is the same attitude that posts a pic of the Pak air chief on an Indian advert. it seems that being ignorant is a requirement in the media.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 25 Jun 2010 11:12

Shameek wrote:^^ It was a feature on the LCH that also had a bunch of other helos.
I was busy taking a tour of the Indian Army's INS Talwar airbase

That was just a "gentle" barb at the ignorance of our media. If they can show a helicopter as a fighter jet, then such statements wouldn't surprise me much!

@shiv
Some minor errors are OK. But errors like the one shown above, are way too much. On this same page, someone posted an article, wherein we had a war with Pakistan in 1997! I sincerely hope some of these media-persons are browsing through this dhaaga.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 26 Jun 2010 15:55

I have vowed never to attend any functions where DDMs will attend.
At one function a few months back:
The following happened:

1) One star journo lit up a cigarette in a technial area causing chaos.No action was taken as he is quite well known.

2) Another know-it-all DDM was surprised that the Mig 29K is supersonic...

3) The killer was one question about why arent the Black Panther sqn's aircraft NOT painted black.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 26 Jun 2010 17:08

Can anyone tell me what's with TOI's defense reporters. Everytime I read a article regarding ballistic missiles they claim that Indian missiles are inferior to the Paki ones and their work in R&D and deployment is far ahead of us. TOI in past few years have become a total pessimist newspaper and in case ballistic missiles they will cook-up stories to make the article feel pessimistic. The only reason I buy TOI is to read Garfield comic strip in BT.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 07 Jul 2010 23:31

India tests short range Astra missile
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 138894.cms

India Wednesday test-fired its short-range Astra air-to-air missile from a defence base in Odisha for the second time in two days, defence sources said.

The beyond visual range missile was tested at 2.05 p.m. from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in the district of Balasore, about 230 km from state capital Bhubaneswar.

The journalist sahab must first decide whether Astra is a short range or a BVR missile

.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 08 Jul 2010 01:17

Kapil wrote: 3) The killer was one question about why arent the Black Panther sqn's aircraft NOT painted black.

Even a n00b like me, who can't make out the difference between AK-47 and AK-74

, would'nt dare to ask such a question.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jul 2010 09:24

Kapil wrote:I have vowed never to attend any functions where DDMs will attend.
At one function a few months back:
The following happened:

2) Another know-it-all DDM was surprised that the Mig 29K is supersonic...

Kapil - you need to correct yourself.

Supersonic means that something can fly into space. Can the MiG 29 do that?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Jul 2010 02:58

pgbhat wrote:
Kapil wrote: 3) The killer was one question about why arent the Black Panther sqn's aircraft NOT painted black.
Even a n00b like me, who can't make out the difference between AK-47 and AK-74 , would'nt dare to ask such a question.

A standard Indian defense journo wouldn't even know those are two different rifles. And you think you are a n00b?