Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 3

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Shankk
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Post by Shankk »

eklavya wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Why doesn't India have a National Commission for Majorities (like Natl. Comm. for Minorities) ? Who would take care of the situation where the majority rights are trampled or laws are enacted harmful to majority stakeholder's interests or even listen to the plight of the majority ?
Sridhar, is there a model for such a body in another democractic system that you have in mind?
Well there certainly is something similar if not exactly the same. This idea is not quite elegent and I am not sure about it's practicality in India yet but the way to do is declare India a Hindu nation. If muslims object just point out to other islamic countries and show them what muslims do when they are in majority.

Whenever muslims are in minority anywhere they root for democracy, equality, human rights etc. and keep overbreeding. As soon as they reach a certain point they start demanding separate space for their relegious practices just like Islamic personal law overriding Indian law in some cases. Next stage is to demand separation and a new country for them. Once they get their own land all of a sudden they start asking what democracy? what equality?. We are a muslim nation and Sharia rules. Everyboy has to agree to those rules.

There are quite a lot of things to learn from Islam which is one of the very clever religion.
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Post by Rudranathh »

Muslim youth 'shop around for fatwas online'

YOUNG Muslims are increasingly turning to the internet to get religious advice on jihad as national security agencies crack down on local hardline clerics.

..."I have seen fatwas coming from South Africa, from India, from Pakistan, and we don't know who these people are," Dr Ali said. "Their credentials are not verified and what their educational background is. If you ask to go and fight overseas, they may say yes."...
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Post by samuel »

Once Islamist forces depleted the Hawks in Hindu society and left its doves dhimmified, so to say, why did it stop there? Is it not the express purpose of islam to get em all? Pakistan is certainly evidence of the complete cleansing of everything else within its boundaries. This story happens in Persia, and other places where we may imagine most of them were hawks and because they were hawks, they were completely assimilated into islam.

But what happened in India? Was it not just economical to keep going once the hawks were no longer an issue? Is it not easy to argue that a dhimmified society is progressively easier to assimilate, what with it ready to lick up to the aggressor. Why would the Dhimmis hang on to the Hindu identity at all? Or, was this process happening already, but the british showed up and spoiled the assimilation plans?

I am not sure I follow (though I can see how the British notion of racial superiority will lead to wanting to distinguish between them and the brown people, the same I am not sure I see arising in Islam, which just bludgeons along).

S
Last edited by samuel on 28 Dec 2007 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by vsudhir »

samuel wrote:Once Islamist forces depleted the Hawks in Hindu society and left its doves dhimmified, so to say, why did it stop there? Is it not the express purpose of islam to get em all? Pakistan is certainly evidence of the complete cleansing of everything else within its boundaries. This story happens in Persia, and other places where we may imagine most of them were hawks and so completely depleted and coerced into islam. What happened in India? Was it not just economical to keep going, since it is probably easy to argue that a dhimmified society is progressively easier to assimilate, what with it progressively ready to lick up to the aggressor. Why would the Dhimmis hang on to the Hindu identity at all? I am not sure I follow (though I can see how the British notion of racial superiority will lead to wanting to distinguish between them and the brown people, the same I am not sure I see arising in Islam, which just bludgeons along).

S
Agreed. Nicely articulated besides.
Something doesn't fit. Gaps in the understanding. Why isn't UP totally (say 75%+) muzlim today? Indonesia went from zero to 90 in 300 yrs. What happened in the gangetic plains that failed in the Indus plains?

Our story, our history, our narrative of successful resistance remains hidden/stolen / hijacked. JMTs etc.
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Post by eklavya »

Shiv, Acharya: many thanks for taking the time to answer my queries. It seems we are on the same page on the basic underlying tolerant nature of Hindu society / thought.

I was concerned that some people wish to remodel India as a Hindu society on the lines of Saudi Arabia as an Islamic society, which would be swinging the pendulum much too far in the opposite direction I think.

As far as dealing with Islamic terrorists in India, I think we needs lots and lots of CCTV in public spaces (plus all the other usual anti terrorist techniques). CCTV has worked quite well in the UK in identifying terrorists and tracing their movements, etc.
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Post by ShauryaT »

eklavya wrote:I was concerned that some people wish to remodel India as a Hindu society on the lines of Saudi Arabia as an Islamic society, which would be swinging the pendulum much too far in the opposite direction I think.
India is a hindu society. The dhimmis do not recognize this simple fact and hence seek to re-engineer India's ethos along the lines of, some imagined version of utopia. The denial of this simple fact is at the root of many issues, between the dhimmis and hawks of India.

This utopian view is not some pseudo secular notion of India, embodied in our academia and media, for these concepts of utopia are ingrained in the very veins of the new Republic of India, through its constitution.

Being a hindu society has nothing to do with Islamic Saudi Arabia. There is no equal-equal concepts shared between Islamic and Hindu theology. If anything, a study of both the theology and the history practised in both these societies will reveal that they are diametrical opposites.

So, please have no fear about this myth of a hindu society, which will fashion itself as a theologically governed society.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 28 Dec 2007 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by svinayak »

eklavya wrote:
I was concerned that some people wish to remodel India as a Hindu society on the lines of Saudi Arabia as an Islamic society, which would be swinging the pendulum much too far in the opposite direction I think.
We are suspicious of people who use such sentence comparing India with other countries. Ignoring Indic culture and trying to put it similar to other culture is psy ops
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Post by samuel »

eklavya wrote:Shiv, Acharya: many thanks for taking the time to answer my queries. It seems we are on the same page on the basic underlying tolerant nature of Hindu society / thought.

I was concerned that some people wish to remodel India as a Hindu society on the lines of Saudi Arabia as an Islamic society, which would be swinging the pendulum much too far in the opposite direction I think.

As far as dealing with Islamic terrorists in India, I think we needs lots and lots of CCTV in public spaces (plus all the other usual anti terrorist techniques). CCTV has worked quite well in the UK in identifying terrorists and tracing their movements, etc.
I am following two statements, to add that India has always been a Hindu society. Its people have struggled and survived as a whole, thus emerging victorious as a continuous Hindu society from time immemorial. We intrinsically, instinctively, recognize plurality of thought, opinion, and path, and use it as a means to arrive at truth. At least that is how I see it. I also feel our way allows doves to exist within us, (some would say dhimmis, but there is a difference) and continuously spawns sons and daughters that will yield to no other way of life. Nothing else comes close, which is why we are still around.

So I am thrilled that we have thrown all these transients out and are back on track after many hundreds of years to realize, again, a beautiful Hindu basis for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What other religion you know gets you all that and then some? Why fear it?
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

vsudhir wrote:
samuel wrote:Once Islamist forces depleted the Hawks in Hindu society and left its doves dhimmified, so to say, why did it stop there? Is it not the express purpose of islam to get em all? Pakistan is certainly evidence of the complete cleansing of everything else within its boundaries. This story happens in Persia, and other places where we may imagine most of them were hawks and so completely depleted and coerced into islam. What happened in India? Was it not just economical to keep going, since it is probably easy to argue that a dhimmified society is progressively easier to assimilate, what with it progressively ready to lick up to the aggressor. Why would the Dhimmis hang on to the Hindu identity at all? I am not sure I follow (though I can see how the British notion of racial superiority will lead to wanting to distinguish between them and the brown people, the same I am not sure I see arising in Islam, which just bludgeons along).

S
Agreed. Nicely articulated besides.
Something doesn't fit. Gaps in the understanding. Why isn't UP totally (say 75%+) muzlim today? Indonesia went from zero to 90 in 300 yrs. What happened in the gangetic plains that failed in the Indus plains?

Our story, our history, our narrative of successful resistance remains hidden/stolen / hijacked. JMTs etc.
Undoubtedly, the narrative is masked. One important aspect is that the Indic thoughts germinated wholly in the Indic region and is very deeply rooted. The roots and foundations are extremely well laid and strong, that to dislodge them would require fight that would require orders of magnitude as to the elimination of sub-species. It is the super structure that has been damaged and is quite apparent. When a society is anchored on unsteady principles, it is easy to run over it. Permit me to use this analogy, fighting just the 'regular matter' is not going to cut it, because there is tremendous 'dark matter' that anchors the visible stuff. If one really understands the dark matter one would realilze the futility of fighting it. Although, islamism looked omnious as though it would wipe out all the visible stuff of hinduism.
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Post by Sanku »

eklavya wrote:As far as dealing with Islamic terrorists in India, I think we needs lots and lots of CCTV in public spaces (plus all the other usual anti terrorist techniques). CCTV has worked quite well in the UK in identifying terrorists and tracing their movements, etc.
I must say that with that one prescription you have let the cat out of the bag; we now know your thorough understanding of the extent of Islamism in India; its modus operandi; the clear understanding of scale of India and the problems it raises so forth. Good job.

This also helps us in really understanding your concern that Hindu rashtra == Islamic entity.

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Am I scoring a self goal Shiv, like I did with Emsin? But really I think to stay in the mortal fear of stating truth for fear of upsetting the Dhimmi leads me to be some what of a Dhimmi myself dont you think?
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Post by JwalaMukhi »

Varioius techniques such as quarantine, innoculation, surgery yada yada are possible. Irrespective of what is wrong or what is right history will takes its course. If it becomes necessary that society has to descend to the level of adversary and mirror image it, to ascend may be that path will be tread by history.
Here is link to debate between Richard Dawkins versus Larry Krauss (physicist) that is kind of relevant to how to handle the HISI:
url
Krauss: Both you and I have devoted a substantial fraction of our time to trying to get people excited about science, while also attempting to explain the bases of our current respective scientific understandings of the universe. So it seems appropriate to ask what the primary goals of a scientist should be when talking or writing about religion. I wonder which is more important: using the contrast between science and religion to teach about science or trying to put religion in its place? I suspect that I want to concentrate more on the first issue, and you want to concentrate more on the second.
Dawkins: The fact that I think religion is bad science, whereas you think it is ancillary to science, is bound to bias us in at least slightly different directions. I agree with you that teaching is seduction, and it could well be bad strategy to alienate your audience before you even start. Maybe I could improve my seduction technique. But nobody admires a dishonest seducer, and I wonder how far you are prepared to go in “reaching out.â€
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Post by amit »

JwalaMukhi wrote: Undoubtedly, the narrative is masked. One important aspect is that the Indic thoughts germinated wholly in the Indic region and is very deeply rooted. The roots and foundations are extremely well laid and strong, that to dislodge them would require fight that would require orders of magnitude as to the elimination of sub-species. It is the super structure that has been damaged and is quite apparent. When a society is anchored on unsteady principles, it is easy to run over it. Permit me to use this analogy, fighting just the 'regular matter' is not going to cut it, because there is tremendous 'dark matter' that anchors the visible stuff. If one really understands the dark matter one would realilze the futility of fighting it. Although, islamism looked omnious as though it would wipe out all the visible stuff of hinduism.
The greatest strength of the Hindu-Indic way of life is that there is no visible target for predatory religions to target. Sure they plundered Somnath Temple umpteen number of times but that only made the nation poorer in terms of wealth not in religion.

For the Chirstian or Muslim religion, burn the chruches or mosques and immediately you strike a mortal blow on the religious order. When Spain was conqured by the Muslims, all the Churches were either destroyed or turned into mosques. After the Chirstian reconquest the same mosques were recoverted into churches - you can see Muslim architectural influences in old churches there.

There was no Pope of Iman equivalent to kill to strike a mortal blow on the Hindu religion.

Another great strength is the Hindu religion's adaptablity and ablity to assimilate. And even though we are obsessed with the Muslim influence, let's not forget that for almost a 1,000 years Buddhism was a major, major religion in India. Yet Hinduism survived and how? One very simplistic but elegant answer that I once heard was that Hinduism defeated Buddhisim when it was declared that Buddha was an avaatar of Vishnu!

I would even stick my neck out and say the Dhimmitude which we all hate and criticise has played its role in forming an outer layer for the defence of the scared core of Indic way of life.

If you attack and then find your opponents roll up and die (that is act as dhimmis) you think that you've already won the war, little realising that the greater core is just sitting quietly biding its time to come out.

I think the time has come now.
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Post by ramana »

vsudhir wrote:
samuel wrote:Once Islamist forces depleted the Hawks in Hindu society and left its doves dhimmified, so to say, why did it stop there? Is it not the express purpose of islam to get em all? Pakistan is certainly evidence of the complete cleansing of everything else within its boundaries. This story happens in Persia, and other places where we may imagine most of them were hawks and so completely depleted and coerced into islam. What happened in India? Was it not just economical to keep going, since it is probably easy to argue that a dhimmified society is progressively easier to assimilate, what with it progressively ready to lick up to the aggressor. Why would the Dhimmis hang on to the Hindu identity at all? I am not sure I follow (though I can see how the British notion of racial superiority will lead to wanting to distinguish between them and the brown people, the same I am not sure I see arising in Islam, which just bludgeons along).

S
Agreed. Nicely articulated besides.
Something doesn't fit. Gaps in the understanding. Why isn't UP totally (say 75%+) muzlim today? Indonesia went from zero to 90 in 300 yrs. What happened in the gangetic plains that failed in the Indus plains?

Our story, our history, our narrative of successful resistance remains hidden/stolen / hijacked. JMTs etc.
Ram Charit Manas by Tulsidas Goswami. He took Sri Ram from temple to the people's heart. Note when he wrote and who encouraged him to use local bhasa?

West Punjab was Islamized with the destruction of the temple at Multan which was rallying place for the Hindus. no temple no more Hindus in West Punjab.
Babur tried to recreate the same paradigm in Ayodhya but didnt work due to many factors of which Tulsidasji's work was important.
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Post by Sanku »

ramana wrote: Note when he wrote and who encouraged him to use local bhasa?
Its been years since I last read "Manas ka Hans" can you please tell us who? I have been googling for last 20 mins without luck?
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Post by Prem »

Hindu Dharma allows individual freedom in spiritual filed. Same goes for almost every Indic religion. Vedas say go beyond books and become like Supreme Brahman, Budha says become like Budha and Sikhism removed the difference between Guru and Chela. Unlike others , we are all granted spiritual sovereignty and the destruction of place , person and scripture has no bearing on Indic spiritual way of life . The onlee way to destroy is to kill each and every one of us. Islam has already unsuccessfuly tried this on us . It has wounded and paralized a small body portion of us but not killed us. The healing and rejuvination process is slowly and steadly on and once complete it will result in long sought paradigm shift in thinking . Dhimmis etc putting break on the process will soon become either part of it or risk becoming irreleavant. The momentum is sure shifting and taking natural course .Just like hindu rate of economic growth , it will soon arrive at abrupt upward curve.
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Post by ShauryaT »

amit wrote:The greatest strength of the Hindu-Indic way of life is that there is no visible target for predatory religions to target. Sure they plundered Somnath Temple umpteen number of times but that only made the nation poorer in terms of wealth not in religion.
Do you actually believe that Hindus stored their wealth in temples? and that muslims invaded and destroyed these temples for the wealth stored in them?
Another great strength is the Hindu religion's adaptablity and ablity to assimilate. And even though we are obsessed with the Muslim influence, let's not forget that for almost a 1,000 years Buddhism was a major, major religion in India. Yet Hinduism survived and how? One very simplistic but elegant answer that I once heard was that Hinduism defeated Buddhisim when it was declared that Buddha was an avaatar of Vishnu!
Buddism was never a separate religion, while in India. An accurate study of Buddhist texts will reveal that they do not differ from what is embodied in the Upanishads. So, where is the question of Buddism being a new religion as alll?
I would even stick my neck out and say the Dhimmitude which we all hate and criticise has played its role in forming an outer layer for the defence of the scared core of Indic way of life.
Show me where dhimmitued protected the masses of India thorugh the 1000 years of subjugation. Kharaj, Khams and Jiziyah combined to destroy the hindus, roasting them slowly but surely to death in this state of dhimmitude. Any true defence was always through the sheer bravery, grit and determiniation of 1000's of battles in India fought by the Hindus again and again and not some weak kneed dhimmitude.
If you attack and then find your opponents roll up and die (that is act as dhimmis) you think that you've already won the war, little realising that the greater core is just sitting quietly biding its time to come out.

I think the time has come now.
The regret is Hindus, never understood Islamism, as they do now and nor did the hindus organize themselves well to defeat the alien forces in an organized and sustained manner.
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Post by putnanja »

2nd part by Arun Shourie in IE...

What more is needed to stoke reaction?
The Task Force on Border Management, one of the four that were set up in the wake of the Kargil War, reported with alarm about the way madrassas had mushroomed along India’s borders. On the basis of information it received from intelligence agencies, it expressed grave concern at the amount of money these madrassas were receiving from foreign sources. It reported that large numbers were being ‘educated’ in these institutions in subjects that did not equip them at all for jobs — other than to become preachers and teachers producing the same type of incendiary unemployables. It expressed the gravest concern at the way the madrassas were reinforcing separateness in those attending them — through the curriculum, through the medium of instruction, through the entire orientation of learning: the latter, the Task Force pointed out, was entirely turned towards Arabia, towards the ‘golden ages’ of Islamic rule. It pointed to the consequences that were certain to flow from ‘the Talibanisation’ of the madrassas. [In spite of what the Task Forces themselves advised, namely that their reports be made public, the reports have been kept secret. Accordingly, I have summarised the observations of the Task Forces in some detail in Will the Iron Fence Save a Tree Hollowed by Termites? Defence imperatives beyond the military, ASA, Delhi, 2005.]

And what does the Sachar Committee recommend? ‘Recognition of the degrees from madrassas for eligibility in competitive examinations such as the civil services, banks, defence services and other such examinations’! It recommends that government use public funds to encourage formation of Muslim NGOs and their activities. It recommends that government provide financial and other support to occupations and areas in which Muslims predominate. It recommends that Muslims be in selection committees, interview panels and boards for public services.

It recommends that a higher proportion of Muslims be inducted in offices that deal with the public — ‘the teaching community, health workers, police personnel, bank employees and so on.’ It recommends ‘provision of ‘equivalence’ to madrassa certificates/degrees for subsequent admissions into institutions of higher level of education.’ It recommends that banks be required to collect and maintain information about their transactions — deposits, advances — separately for Muslims, and that they be required to submit this to the Reserve Bank of India! It recommends that advances be made to Muslims as part of the obligation imposed on banks to give advances to Priority Sectors. It recommends that government give banks incentives to open branches in Muslim concentration areas. It recommends that, instead of being required to report merely ‘Amount Outstanding’, banks be told to report ‘Sanctions or Disbursements to Minorities’. It recommends that financial institutions be required to set up separate funds for training Muslim entrepreneurs, that they be required to set up special micro-credit schemes for Muslims. It recommends that all districts more than a quarter of whose population is Muslim be brought into the prime minister’s 15-point programme.

‘There should be transparency in information about minorities in all activities,’ the Committee declares. ‘It should be made mandatory to publish/furnish information in a prescribed format once in three months and also to post the same on the website of the departments and state governments...’ It recommends that for each programme of government, data be maintained separately about the extent to which Muslims and other minorities are benefiting from it. But it is not enough to keep data separately. Separate schemes must be instituted. It recommends that special and separate Centrally Sponsored Schemes and Central Plan Schemes be launched for ‘minorities with an equitable provision for Muslims.’ It recommends special measures for the promotion and spread of Urdu. It recommends the adoption of ‘alternate admission criteria’ in universities and autonomous colleges: assessment of merit should not be assigned more than 60 per cent out of the total — the remaining 40 per cent should be assigned in accordance with the income of the household, the backwardness of the district, and the backwardness of the caste and occupation of the family. It recommends that grants by the University Grants Commission be linked to ‘the diversity of the student population.’ It recommends that pre-entry qualification for admission to ITIs be scaled down, that ‘eligibility for such programmes should also be extended to the madrassa educated children.’ It recommends that ‘high quality government schools should be set up in all areas of Muslim concentration.’ It recommends that resources and government land be made available for ‘common public spaces’ for adults of — its euphemism — ‘Socio-Religious Categories’ to ‘interact’.

It recommends that incentives to builders, private sector employers, educational institutions be linked to ‘diversity’ of the populations in their sites and enterprises. For this purpose it wants a ‘diversity index’ to be developed for each such activity.

It recommends changes in the way constituencies are delimited. It recommends that where Muslims are elected or selected in numbers less than adequate, ‘a carefully conceived ‘nomination’ procedure’ be worked out ‘to increase the participation of minorities at the grass roots.’

It notes that there already are the Human Rights Commission and the Minorities Commission ‘to look into complaints by the minorities with respect to state action.’ But these are not adequate as the Muslims still feel that they are not getting a fair share. The solution? Here is its recommendation, and a typical passage:

‘It is imperative that if the minorities have certain perceptions of being aggrieved,’ notice the touchstone — ‘if the minorities have certain perceptions of being aggrieved’ — ‘all efforts should be made by the state to find a mechanism by which these complaints could be attended to expeditiously. This mechanism should operate in a manner which gives full satisfaction to the minorities’, notice again the touchstone — not any external criterion, but ‘full satisfaction to the minorities’ — ‘that any denial of equal opportunities or bias or discrimination in dealing with them, either by a public functionary or any private individual, will immediately be attended to and redress given. Such a mechanism should be accessible to all individuals and institutions desirous to complain that they have received less favourable treatment from any employer or any person on the basis of his/her SRC [Socio-Religious Category] background and gender.’

The responsibility is entirely that of the other. The other must function to the full satisfaction of the Muslims. As long as the Muslims ‘have certain perceptions of being aggrieved,’ the other is at fault...

So that everyone is put on notice, so that everyone who is the other is forever put to straining himself to satisfy the Muslims, the Committee recommends that a National Data Bank be created and it be mandatory for all departments and agencies to supply information to it to document how their activities are impacting Muslims and other minorities. On top of all this, government should set up an Assessment and Monitoring Authority to evaluate the benefits that are accruing to the minorities from each programme and activity...

This is the programme that every secularist who is in government is demanding that the government implement forthwith. And every secularist outside — the ever-so-secular CPI(M), for instance — is scolding the government for not implementing swiftly enough. What splendid evolution! Not long ago, unless you saw a Muslim as a human being, and not as a Muslim, you were not secular. Now, if you see a Muslim as a human being and not as a Muslim, you are not secular!

Consequences

The first consequence is as inevitable as it is obvious: such pandering whets the appetite. Seeing that governments and parties are competing to pander to them, Muslims see that they are doing so only because their community is acting cohesively, as a vote bank. So, they act even more as a bank of votes.

For the same reason, a competition is ignited within the community: to prove that he is more devoted to the community than his rival, every would-be leader of the community demands more and more from governments and parties. When the concession he demanded has been made, he declares, ‘It is not being implemented’. And he has a ready diagnosis: because implementation, he declares, is in the hands of non-Muslims. Hence, unless Muslims officers are appointed in the financial institutions meant for Muslims... With demand following demand, with secularist upon secularist straining himself to urge the demands, the leader sets about looking for grievances that he can fan. When he can’t find them, he invents them...

Governments make the fatal mistake, or — as happened in the case of the British when they announced separate electorates for Muslims — they play the master-stroke: they proffer an advantage to the community which that community, Muslims in this case, can secure only by being separate — whether this be separate electorates in the case of Lord Minto or separate financial institutions in the case of Manmohan Singh.

The community in its turn begins to assess every proposal, every measure, howsoever secular it may be, against one touchstone alone: ‘What can we extract from this measure for Muslims as Muslims?’How current the description rings that Cantwell Smith gave in his book, Modern Islam in India, published in the 1940s, of the effect that the British stratagem of instituting separate electorates for Muslims had had on the Muslim mind. The separate electorates led Muslims, as they had been designed to lead them, he observed, ‘to vote communally, think communally, listen only to communal election speeches, judge the delegates communally, look for constitutional and other reforms only in terms of more relative communal power, and express their grievances communally.’ [Wilfred Cantwell Smith, Modern Islam in India, Second Revised Edition, 1946, reprint, Usha Publications, New Delhi, 1979, p. 216]. Exactly the same consequence will follow from implementing the Sachar proposals — and the reason for that is simple: the essential point about the proposals is the same — that is, the Muslims can obtain them by being separate from the rest of the country.

The reaction cannot but set in. ‘As Muslims are being given all this because they have distanced themselves from the rest of us, why should we cling to them?’ the Hindus are bound to ask. ‘On the contrary, we should learn from them. Governments and political parties are pandering to Muslims because the latter have become a bank of votes. We should knit ourselves into a solid bloc also.’

Do you think they need a Pravin Togadia to tell them this? The genuflections of governments and parties write the lesson on the blackboard. And the abuse hurled by secularists drills it in: by the excellent work that Narendra Modi has done for development, he had already made himself the pre-eminent leader of Gujarat; by the abuse they have hurled at him, the secularists, in particular the media, have enlarged his canvas to the country.
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Post by ShauryaT »

2nd part by Arun Shourie in IE...

Do you think they need a Pravin Togadia to tell them this? The genuflections of governments and parties write the lesson on the blackboard. And the abuse hurled by secularists drills it in: by the excellent work that Narendra Modi has done for development, he had already made himself the pre-eminent leader of Gujarat; by the abuse they have hurled at him, the secularists, in particular the media, have enlarged his canvas to the country.
Tathastu !
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Post by SwamyG »

Tackling Islamic Extremism? What does it mean:
1. Does it mean turning more Kafur doves to Kafur Hawks?
2. Does it mean turning more Islamic hawks to Islamic doves?
3. Does it mean to force the existing Kafur & Islamic doves to take action against the Islmaist hawks?
4. Does it mean a social-engineering to reform Islam itself? As Islam is the underlying 800 pound gorilla when it comes to Islamism?
5. Reducing the number and intensity of communal riots?
6. Reducing terror attacks?
7. Cutting Islamisim's string to Arabia?
8. Destroying Islamism without affecting Islam?(Is that even possible?)

It could be either one or all of the above. It could also be more than what I listed above. When we say we want to tackle Islamism in India, what exactly are our expectations, what are and should be our goals? The goals might or might not be achievable in our life item. Even if not achievable in a life time, one still need to define the expectations and prioritize them.
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Post by shiv »

Sanku wrote:to stay in the mortal fear of stating truth for fear of upsetting the Dhimmi leads me to be some what of a Dhimmi myself dont you think?
:lol: Well put.

That is step 1. Step 2 is to realise that doing this causes anger, so it should be done in a diplomatic, veiled way without glee or triumphalism.

Unfortunately it IS piskotherapy for damaged minds.
Last edited by shiv on 29 Dec 2007 05:08, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Post by ramana »

Sanku wrote:
ramana wrote: Note when he wrote and who encouraged him to use local bhasa?
Its been years since I last read "Manas ka Hans" can you please tell us who? I have been googling for last 20 mins without luck?
--------------------


The Shankarachraya at that time backed him when the scholars berated Tulisdas for writing in local bhasa instead of raj bhasa.

i found this out when the Kanchi mattadhipati was arrested by JJ.
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Post by shiv »

samuel wrote:Once Islamist forces depleted the Hawks in Hindu society and left its doves dhimmified, so to say, why did it stop there? Is it not the express purpose of islam to get em all? Pakistan is certainly evidence of the complete cleansing of everything else within its boundaries. This story happens in Persia, and other places where we may imagine most of them were hawks and because they were hawks, they were completely assimilated into islam.

But what happened in India? Was it not just economical to keep going once the hawks were no longer an issue? Is it not easy to argue that a dhimmified society is progressively easier to assimilate, what with it ready to lick up to the aggressor. Why would the Dhimmis hang on to the Hindu identity at all? Or, was this process happening already, but the british showed up and spoiled the assimilation plans?
We went though this in that game theory business.

When you have pure Muslim society (no kafirs), and you assume, for the sake of gaming that only Hawks exist - they will keep kiling each other.

What typically happens in real life in the presence of a population of "all hawks" is that a mutant with "submission" or "dove" tendencies arises. The dove loses the fight (and may lose a mate or some food) - but it survives by losing. This helps a population of doves to survive and thrive

Dawkins theory gamed hawks to doves in such a population to reach an equlibrium of 60:40 and I assumed that for want of any other statistics or model, a purely Islamic population will fight within itself and remain at this level of equlibrium.

The next step is what happens when this population meets another popluation - eg such as Hindus

Here is what I had proposed in the first "gaming Islam" post
When you take this body of dar ul Islam, with its particular ratio of islamists to Moderates and pit it against a kafir population, the game becomes more complex.

The kafir population consists of two types of people. One type will submit and become dhimmis. The other type will fight.

If this population is exposed to the population of dar ul Islam, it is in the nature of the islamists to attack every time. The moderates can be assumed to stay out (to keep the model from getting too complicated) But the Islamists will be faced with a mix of fighters and potential dhimmis.

Imagine for a minute that there are no fighters among the kafirs and the kafir population consists only of potential dhimmis. What happens in this case is that they will all become instant dhimmis and their population will be added to the population of moderate Muslims (doves). This raises the proportion of doves to such a high level that the society will inevitably move towards equlibrium and the number of Islamists will increase till equilibrium is reached.

However, this happy picture is complicated by the presence of fighters among the kafirs.

The fighters will offer resistance to the Islamists. In that fight there will be some attrition of both the kafir fighters and Islamists, and the proportion of both kafir fighters and Islamists will go down - with a relative increase in the proportion of dhimmis+moderates.

Things now get a little more complex.

If Islamist military strength is overwhelming, they will kill all kafir fighters. Some of these fighters may live to fight another day if they realise that they can survive by becoming dhimmis.

If kafir military strength is overwhelming - they could kill all Islamists (depending on their fighting doctrine). Islam is excellent in this regard because it clearly lays down rules for Islamists to survive to fight another day by becoming moderate or doing a Hudaibiya.
Let me add the second part of the original post here:
It appears that allowing music or some mildly unislamic practice is a frequently used quid pro quo by Islamic hawks to get compliance, submission and support from less hawkish. more dove-ish people.

This quid pro quo holds good for Muslim doves as well as dhimmis.

Note that the extremely simplistic "hawk-dove" game is too simple to explain real society until you add some complexity.

If you assume that a hawk always attacks and a dove always shies away and submits it can explain a lot. But in real life there may be situations in which doves are provoked so much that they fight and may even win. This is very bad for hawk survival. Hawk strategy is better served by dividing rules up into what is "OK" (minor transgressions) and "Not OK (major transgressions)

Minor transgressions (music, art) can be ignored so that the hawk does not have to get into a fight every time. But those minor transgressions are held up as sops (recipe books and song books) in exchange for Islam's major egregious demands for which the hawks are always willing to fight to kill, and which fight doves would like to avoid.

When Islam itself is seen under grave threat - the minor transgressions have to be snuffed out. This has the salutary effect (for Islamists) of either ensuring submission of real doves, or showing up the pretend doves and Trojans who can be singled out and eliminated, ensuring the success of pure Islam.

Once again this gels in well with the observation that "moderates" who sing and dance and "dhimmis" who "live free" are essential to the overall survival of islamic hawks. In this balancing game the Islamic doves and dhimmi doves do whatever it takes to ensure that they survive no matter what. It often means complete submission and no fighting against Islamists.. That is what Islam aims for
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Post by amit »

ShauryaT wrote: Do you actually believe that Hindus stored their wealth in temples? and that muslims invaded and destroyed these temples for the wealth stored in them?
ShauryaT,

I'm sure you know the history of the Somnath Temple much better than I do. And I quoted a specific temple not all temples.

The temple was razed to the ground in 725 AD, 1024AD and 1297 AD by Muslim rulers. Each time the temple riches were looted.

But my point was not that - and I'm sorry you could not get to what I was trying to say. My point was that the kind of body blow that the destruction of place of worship can give to the two big revealed religions is not applicable to the Indic religions because they are not monolithic in nature.
Buddism was never a separate religion, while in India. An accurate study of Buddhist texts will reveal that they do not differ from what is embodied in the Upanishads. So, where is the question of Buddism being a new religion as alll?
The very fact that you don't consider, just like I don't, Buddhism to be a separate religion proves the point I was trying to make with that remark. That is the inclusive nature of the Hindu religion which is its greatest strength.

And by the way try telling the Sri Lankans, Thais, Japanese and the Chinese that the Buddhist religion is not a different religion from Hinduism and check their reactions.
Show me where dhimmitued protected the masses of India thorugh the 1000 years of subjugation. Kharaj, Khams and Jiziyah combined to destroy the hindus, roasting them slowly but surely to death in this state of dhimmitude. Any true defence was always through the sheer bravery, grit and determiniation of 1000's of battles in India fought by the Hindus again and again and not some weak kneed dhimmitude.
If you look at world history you will find a very interesting fact. That is once the Muslim hordes started to move out of the sands of Arabia one of two things happened.

They either completely overran the native religions and turned the population 100 per cent Muslim, like in the case of Persia. Or, as in case of the European Mediterrian countries, the Muslim religion after gaining a foothold was complete decimated by the opposing religion, in this case Chirstianity.

It is only in India that despite massive inroads, the Muslim religion was never able to completely subjugate the native Indic religions. They had ample time to do that mind you, just look at Souteast Asia, in a space of 300 years or so countries like Indonesia and Malaysia went from zero Muslims to massive Muslim majority nations were the indigenous (as opposed to those who brought the religion to the shores) being the true champions of Muslimisation.

In India, sure, there was bravery and sacrifice to keep the Hindu way of life just as there was horrific butchery. But do you think it was only bravery that kept the Musalmans at bay, especially in the Western India and places like UP?

It hurts my cultural pride to consider it but that's the reason I am begining to think that Dhimmitude as we define it in BRF has had its uses. I would also hasten to add that the time for Dhimminess is over. And I'm optimistic that is happening despite the kandle kissing brigade - they are a dying species.

In one of my previous posts I had noted that most dhimmis today would fall in the profile of english medium educated, well to do above 35 elites. I don't think there's much of dhimminess in the rural countryside. And there is far less dhimmitude in the younger generation who are happy with their culture, religious rites and Bollywood songs/films - a true potupuri of pan Indian culture.
The regret is Hindus, never understood Islamism, as they do now and nor did the hindus organize themselves well to defeat the alien forces in an organized and sustained manner.
I totally agree with you on this point. But again I'm optimistic on the future. With the massive dessimation of news and images, every Muslim terroist act is breeding thousands of people who abhor Islamism and there is a quiet anger which can and will burst out soon or later.
Last edited by amit on 29 Dec 2007 11:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shiv »

amit wrote: It is only in India that despite massive inroads, the Muslim religion was never able to completely subjugate the native Indic religions. They had ample time to do that mind you, just look at Souteast Asia, in a space of 300 years or so countries like Indonesia and Malaysia went from zero Muslims to massive Muslim majority nations were the indigenous (as opposed to those who brought the religion to the shores) being the true champions of Muslimisation.

In India, sure, there was bravery and sacrifice to keep the Hindu way of life just as there was horrific butchery. But do you think it was only bravery that kept the Musalmans at bay, especially in the Western India and places like UP?
Well have you considered another explanation for dhimminess + long term survival?

To me it indicates that Hindus are not the peaceful tolerant bunch they are made out to be . The HISI seculars of India like to say "Oh Hindus are tolerant" After putting this "chhaap" (shaap?) on Hindus, they then say that any Hindu who is not tolerant or peaceful is a "right wing extremist".

In fact it would be a good idea to look at Hindus as they are and not imagine that they are some peace loving bunch. They are not. They became dhimmis because they did not know what hit them. Hindus were dumb, but not peaceful. their dumbness was the way in which they "accepted" any outsider and his thought without thinking that he may be a b**nchod.

After getting their asses bambooed by Islam initially they woke up and either fought or did a Hudaibiya - i.e converted to dhimmi when needed to survive.

But since Hindus did not really consider Muslims as an "alien group" - Muslims were just another Indian group who had to be bambooed like anyone else.

It was the Brits who came in and taught Hindus to see themselves as one and Muslims as separate. The Brits, who came from the outside, could clearly see Muslims and Hindus as separate groups and set about splitting them. Until then, dhimmitude or fighting Muslims was probably just another day's work depending on who was stronger.

But I digress. "Peaceful, tolerant Hindus" is IMHO a myth. I don't believe it. I think it was proposed as a uniting factor by Gandhi. After all "Ishwar Allah tere naam" can technically appeal only to a Hindu.

We Indians seem to confuse ourselves by worrying about dhimmitude, getting angry, saying we want war, and then suddenly going all quiet and pensive, shedding a tear and asking "Hey aren't we supposed to be peaceful and tolerant?" Hindus? Tell me another one.

The recognition of Hindus as a violent and not so tolerant group is an important one and means something completely different for the country than if you think of them as mere pushovers.

But someone please inform me if they think I am wrong and feel that hindus are actually "by nature" peaceful and tolerant.
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Post by amit »

shiv wrote: Well have you considered another explanation for dhimminess + long term survival?

To me it indicates that Hindus are not the peaceful tolerant bunch they are made out to be . The HISI seculars of India like to say "Oh Hindus are tolerant" After putting this "chhaap" (shaap?) on Hindus, they then say that any Hindu who is not tolerant or peaceful is a "right wing extremist".

In fact it would be a good idea to look at Hindus as they are and not imagine that they are some peace loving bunch. They are not. They became dhimmis because they did not know what hit them. Hindus were dumb, but not peaceful. their dumbness was the way in which they "accepted" any outsider and his thought without thinking that he may be a b**nchod.

After getting their asses bambooed by Islam initially they woke up and either fought or did a Hudaibiya - i.e converted to dhimmi when needed to survive.

But since Hindus did not really consider Muslims as an "alien group" - Muslims were just another Indian group who had to be bambooed like anyone else.

It was the Brits who came in and taught Hindus to see themselves as one and Muslims as separate. The Brits, who came from the outside, could clearly see Muslims and Hindus as separate groups and set about splitting them. Until then, dhimmitude or fighting Muslims was probably just another day's work depending on who was stronger.

But I digress. "Peaceful, tolerant Hindus" is IMHO a myth. I don't believe it. I think it was proposed as a uniting factor by Gandhi. After all "Ishwar Allah tere naam" can technically appeal only to a Hindu.

We Indians seem to confuse ourselves by worrying about dhimmitude, getting angry, saying we want war, and then suddenly going all quiet and pensive, shedding a tear and asking "Hey aren't we supposed to be peaceful and tolerant?" Hindus? Tell me another one.

The recognition of Hindus as a violent and not so tolerant group is an important one and means something completely different for the country than if you think of them as mere pushovers.

But someone please inform me if they think I am wrong and feel that hindus are actually "by nature" peaceful and tolerant.
Shiv ji,

I have no disagreement on that. I certainly don't consider Hinduism to be a peaceful religion - I come from a part of India where Kali and Durga are the most favourite gods and who can say they are peaceful? :wink:

(Of the Indic religions, methinks only Bhuddhism and Jainism would qualify as true peaceful religions.)

Despite not being a peaceful religion, the difference is that Hindus and Hinduism have a flexible ability to react to dangers unlike the practitioners of the revealed religions which demand so much from there adherents.

For example if a Musalman is confronted about his religious beliefs and put to sword to change them, he will either prefer death or will convert - see how Spain was totally cleared of Muslims.

The Hindu on the other hand has the startegy of using Hudaibiya dhimmitude to try and defend his beliefs so that he can live to fight another day when he grows stronger.

That is why I'm beginning to think that it could have been used as a strategy to defend the faith. However after the Brits came into the picture and thanks to Western education its been ingrained into the reaction of a section of the english educated elite. It became an end in itself and not just a means to an end.

I say a section because I would think you and me as well as most folks in BRF, for example, have gone through the same education grind yet I don't think anyone can call us dhimmis.

The Brits were a far more dangerous adversaries because they were educated traders apart from being soilders unlike the illeterate boy loving hordes which came through the Hindu Kush Mountains.

Fortunately the tide of world history in the early 20th century weakened the Brit empire and it coincided with an Indian renessance otherwise the damage could have been more severe
Last edited by amit on 29 Dec 2007 13:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by amit »

shiv wrote: The HISI seculars of India like to say "Oh Hindus are tolerant" After putting this "chhaap" (shaap?) on Hindus, they then say that any Hindu who is not tolerant or peaceful is a "right wing extremist".
This is the same as the usal exhortations that we hear from Washington, London, Islamabad and New Delhi. To the effect: Islam is a religion of peace and it does not condone terrorist activities.

Where is the middle finger icon when you need it the most?? Damn!
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hindu : muslim relative population % data

Post by dada »

Are any reliable figures available regarding relative hindu:muslim population % & india's total population from 700AD to 2007 AD ?

british census figures are available from 1870 onwards

in 1680 india's population was estimated at 80 million , while muslim population was 4% of this figure (aurangzeb era)

in 1870, muslims were 11% of india's population (120 million)
in 1947, muslims were 25% of india's population of 390 million(~ 95 million)
current figures of muslim population(taking entire pakistan-india-bangladesh together) ~ 500 million+ in the total estimated 1450 million or 36% !
in 2025 ?
in 2050 ?

any related links or sources ?
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Post by eklavya »

SwamyG wrote:Tackling Islamic Extremism? What does it mean:
1. Does it mean turning more Kafur doves to Kafur Hawks?
2. Does it mean turning more Islamic hawks to Islamic doves?
3. Does it mean to force the existing Kafur & Islamic doves to take action against the Islmaist hawks?
4. Does it mean a social-engineering to reform Islam itself? As Islam is the underlying 800 pound gorilla when it comes to Islamism?
5. Reducing the number and intensity of communal riots?
6. Reducing terror attacks?
7. Cutting Islamisim's string to Arabia?
8. Destroying Islamism without affecting Islam?(Is that even possible?)

It could be either one or all of the above. It could also be more than what I listed above. When we say we want to tackle Islamism in India, what exactly are our expectations, what are and should be our goals? The goals might or might not be achievable in our life item. Even if not achievable in a life time, one still need to define the expectations and prioritize them.
Good question Swamy. Had been wondering that myself. Had mistakenly assumed the issue was counter-terrorism.

On this thread it appears to mean holding forth on "dhimmis", whatever that/they may be,advocating an intolerant and non-secular approach to minorities, and claiming a Hindu cultural / historical / theological basis for doing so, without, of course, offering any evidence whatsoever for that viewpoint, or that such an approach would help to achieve the desired goals, which as you have rightly pointed out, remain unspecified.
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Post by vsudhir »

OT response.

Shaheedized.
Last edited by vsudhir on 29 Dec 2007 17:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by shiv »

When "seularism" was brought into life in Britain, it was secularism that existed in a basically Christian land.

Governance would have no influence from the Church and in exchange teh Church would be left alone by government as long as it kept its word and did not meddle in governance.

Society in India before Britain came into India was totally religious, and highly communal. Religion existed at the highest levels of Government. Kings constructed temples, or supported one or other religion. India until the British came was a highly unsecular land. It had a fair share of intolerance too.

Then Macaulay came and

1) Stopped British funding of Sanskrit and Arabic education
2) Started English education
3) Introduced a secular penal code.

Macaulay did not impose a secular civil code. The Civil code remained divided on religious and communal lines.

Then India got independence and became a secular republic. The meaning of secular was taken from the British.

I repeat that the Indian Government would not be influenced by the Church (religion) and the Church (religion) would not meddle in governance.

But this was originally an agreement reached in Europe between Church and Christian people after much fighting and killing. It was not a decision taken by Hindus or Muslims, who always had religion as part of their governance.

It was then that the whammy struck Hindus.

The India government introduced a civil code for Hindus. The Indian government indulged in an unsecular albeit constitutionally valid act by introducing a Hindu civil code.

The Muslim civil code was left untouched. (One can read the reasons for this in any history book. I suggest Ram Guha's book)

In other words, the Indian government remained secular towards Muslims and kept its word. But it did not treat Hindus in the same secular way and leave their civil code alone. And the Government continues to be secular towards Muslims and leaves their civil code alone even as sharia is used to whip up terror and intolerant or anachronistic behavior in India.

But that is not all.

The Indian government still allows a skewed kind of secularism in the public domain that it is not supposed to touch, but touches as and when it feels like touching.

The government allows "all religions to be practised and propagated freely". That sounds fair. As a result, both islam and Christianity are allowed to spread their faith. That is obviously fair and secular, and in line with Indian secularism

However, in the process of spreading their faith in India, Islam and Christianity can only get new recruits from the majority Hindus. In order to get new recruits from Hinduism, Christianity and Islam have to inform potential Hindu converts that their religion is false as are their Gods, who must be repudiated.

Someone please explain to me how Hindus are being "intolerant" and "unsecular" if they complain that Christian and Muslims spreading their religions are declaring Hindu Gods as false, to be rejected in favor of a Christian or Muslim God.

If the secularism and tolerance that is expected from Hindus include silent assent when someone, legally protected by the Indian government comes and declares Hindu gods as "false" then I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT BRAND OF SECULARISM AND TOLERANCE. I am not that secular or tolerant.

It does not require much intelligence to understand that I am not being unfair AT ALL.
Last edited by shiv on 29 Dec 2007 17:08, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by shiv »

Request to forum members. Please do not react with anger when you see cognitive dissonance, or dissent. If you want to say something angrily. Do not say it. You will destroy your own opportunity to be heard.

Please show an iota of sophistication, and do not get into knot arguing in a foreign language. Please heed my advice. Do not post. Fume in private if you like.
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Post by niran »

shiv wrote:Request to forum members. Please do not react with anger when you see cognitive dissonance, or dissent. If you want to say something angrily. Do not say it. You will destroy your own opportunity to be heard.

Please show an iota of sophistication, and do not get into knot arguing in a foreign language. Please heed my advice. Do not post. Fume in private if you like.
perfectly true. gentlemen there is an old wisdom" the moment your anger
is in public, you are defeated. There is always a way to say your POV
in a sophisticated manner.

e.g one can say "what an awful food you served"
a more better way would be " Last time was tastier "
Last edited by niran on 29 Dec 2007 17:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by eklavya »

vusdhir, just for the record, I do support a uniform civil code, and the separation of state and religion. If I had my way, I would also get rid of Article 370, and outlaw hostage/prisoner exchanges with terrorists.

However, I also believe that these political objectives need to be pursued through lawful, constitutional and democratic means, without any resort to violence whatsoever, where respect for each individual's human rights is the paramount guiding principle, and where the state takes full responsibility for protecting every citizen's life and property i.e. the state takes full responsibility for protecting potential victims of civil strife and violence, whether the victims be Hindus in Gujarat and Kashmir, or Muslims in Mumbai and Gujarat.

Events like the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 in Delhi, the post Babri Masjid destruction anti-Muslim riots in Mumbai, and the post Godhra anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat, where the state machinery/powerful politicians appeared to be complicit (through action or inaction) with those attacking innocent civilians, are truly awful, and need to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

I am dismayed to read that some members on this forum refer to these incidents as "danda" of the sort advocated in Hindu texts. I feel this makes a complete travesty of Hinduism as I understand it. In any case, it is also unlawful. Also, such an approach will not get rid of Islamic extremism, it will stoke it further and provide it more willing recruits.
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Post by shiv »

eklavya wrote: On this thread it appears to mean holding forth on "dhimmis", whatever that/they may be,advocating an intolerant and non-secular approach to minorities, and claiming a Hindu cultural / historical / theological basis for doing so, without, of course, offering any evidence whatsoever for that viewpoint, or that such an approach would help to achieve the desired goals, which as you have rightly pointed out, remain unspecified.
Eklavya could I ask you for evidence that Hindus are secular or tolerant? One of the major minority complaints against Hindus has been that they are intolerant, and I support that contention.

They are both unsecular and intolerant to a large extent.
i would be happy to be proven wrong.

Islamic extremism is already causing Hindu anger, apart from other reasons for such anger. But naively assumng that Hindus are normally tolerant would be a serious mistake. I think the tackling of tolerance question has to come side by side with two points that currently go without discussion although there seems to be plenty of circumstantial evidence that they exist and should get discussed:

The two "obvious" points that i see are:

1) Hindus are neither naturally tolerant nor naturally secular
2) They have many grievances.

With Hindus in a majority in this country the above two points are a dangerous mix and it is already resulting in unpleasant consequences for minorities.

My point has been getting people to acknowledge a few simple and obvious facts:

Hindus are in a majority and cannot be assumed to be happy and contented. Such assumptions are going to be dangerous if we talk about tackling minority extremism. Minority extremism needs to be tackled with understanding of majority sentiment. If that sounds like a threat - a brief review of news items on how minorities get handled would be instructive.
Last edited by shiv on 29 Dec 2007 17:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by niran »

eklavya wrote:vusdhir, just for the record, I do support a uniform civil code, and the separation of state and religion. If I had my way, I would also get rid of Article 370, and outlaw hostage/prisoner exchanges with terrorists.

However, I also believe that these political objectives need to be pursued through lawful, constitutional and democratic means, without any resort to violence whatsoever, where respect for each individual's human rights is the paramount guiding principle, and where the state takes full responsibility for protecting every citizen's life and property i.e. the state takes full responsibility for protecting potential victims of civil strife and violence, whether the victims be Hindus in Gujarat and Kashmir, or Muslims in Mumbai and Gujarat.

Events like the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 in Delhi, the post Babri Masjid destruction anti-Muslim riots in Mumbai, and the post Godhra anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat, where the state machinery/powerful politicians appeared to be complicit (through action or inaction) with those attacking innocent civilians, are truly awful, and need to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

I am dismayed to read that some members on this forum refer to these incidents as "danda" of the sort advocated in Hindu texts. I feel this makes a complete travesty of Hinduism as I understand it. In any case, it is also unlawful. Also, such an approach will not get rid of Islamic extremism, it will stoke it further and provide it more willing recruits.
Dear Sir,
The above said thoughts are what we here calls it a Dhimmitude.
Methinks for proper orientation you ought to read Doc's gaming
postulates, read it carefully, digest it. then you will be dismayed
of your earlier thoughts.

I agree it takes a lot to change a POV. there is nothing wrong in
changing your POV when proven otherwise. this year i will celebrate
my 40ieth Bday. I changed my POV from "Godhra is a demon" to Godhra
is an inevitable result to Ijlamic terrorism"
so can you.
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Post by shiv »

eklavya wrote: Events like the anti-Sikh riots of 1984 in Delhi, the post Babri Masjid destruction anti-Muslim riots in Mumbai, and the post Godhra anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat, where the state machinery/powerful politicians appeared to be complicit (through action or inaction) with those attacking innocent civilians, are truly awful, and need to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

I am dismayed to read that some members on this forum refer to these incidents as "danda" of the sort advocated in Hindu texts. I feel this makes a complete travesty of Hinduism as I understand it. In any case, it is also unlawful. Also, such an approach will not get rid of Islamic extremism, it will stoke it further and provide it more willing recruits.
You know eklavya - I believe that you have been brought up to believe in a kind of fairy-tale goodness of Hindusim that prevents it's adherents from being bestial while pretending to be meek.

This is a dangerous belief for people to harbor, because I believe they may be in for a shock. There was political complicity across party lines in the incidents you have named, although each party gets a chance to pick on the other. The overall reality is that Hindus are not as holy as they are made out to be.

And they have some genuine and perfectly righteous grievances as well as a huge chip on their shoulders.

Beware of self delusion is all I can say. Some honesty will be needed before Hindu rge can come under control - rather than what i expect to see- its blind application against minority violations.
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Post by eklavya »

Shiv, I agree that Hindus in India have many legitimate grievances, as do the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Christians, etc. Indeed, I haven't come across a single group in India that doesn't have grievances. Sometimes it appears that those living in relative propserity and security have the most grievances (myself included)!

Now, I feel as hurt and angry as the next (Hindu) guy (or gal), when our religion is insulted, demeaned, exploited, etc, whether by missionaries, Islamic fanatics, Winston Churchill, or anybody else.

Having said that, I still believe that our real problems are tackling malnutrition, illiteracy, disease, unemployment, etc. and our true enemies are corruption, un-accountable government, discriminatory attitude to girls, dowry, etc

Surely, the question is what one does about all of these problems, and how one goes about dealing with them. Just not sure that focussing on religion is the right way to tackle these problems.
shiv
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Post by shiv »

eklavya wrote: Surely, the question is what one does about all of these problems, and how one goes about dealing with them. Just not sure that focussing on religion is the right way to tackle these problems.
Sorry. This is avoidance of a question that has as much reality as poverty or anything else. Everything must be addresssed, including this. This is an area that people find all sorts of excuses to avoid. That is wrong.
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Post by eklavya »

I forgot to add Brett Lee, Stuart Clark, and Mitchell Johnson in my list of India's most pressing problems requiring urgent attention ....
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Post by Apu »

eklavya wrote:Shiv, I agree that Hindus in India have many legitimate grievances, as do the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Christians, etc. Indeed, I haven't come across a single group in India that doesn't have grievances. Sometimes it appears that those living in relative propserity and security have the most grievances (myself included)!

Now, I feel as hurt and angry as the next (Hindu) guy (or gal), when our religion is insulted, demeaned, exploited, etc, whether by missionaries, Islamic fanatics, Winston Churchill, or anybody else.

Having said that, I still believe that our real problems are tackling malnutrition, illiteracy, disease, unemployment, etc. and our true enemies are corruption, un-accountable government, discriminatory attitude to girls, dowry, etc

Surely, the question is what one does about all of these problems, and how one goes about dealing with them. Just not sure that focussing on religion is the right way to tackle these problems.
Eklavya, I agree that the issues mentioned by you are of utmost importance to Indians today and rightly so, however it is dangerous to
under estimate the significance of the issue regarding religion in India being discussed in the forum now....this issue has the potential to tear apart the very fabric of the place you want to develop if allowed to persist, India with a large muslim or Christian population with a Jihadi or Evanjehadi sentiment WILL tear the country apart and send it backward, we only have to look around our neighbourhood to see what may happen.....In the same way, enraged Hindus going on the rampage due to their voices and rights being grossly surpressed by the GOI (for votes), the HISIs and the dhimmedia will be equally destructive to our motherland.....

Further, and perhaps more significantly the current stance of Dhimmis, the GOI and the dhimmedia stinks of intolerance despite its fascade of secularism, in fact it defeats the very principal of genuine secularism......And is possibly unconstitutional? (Gurus, please enlighten!)

IMVHO, development and material wealth tends to dilute the significance of religion ( the attitude of Christians some parts of the West is an example)....however, with the current jihadi and EJ onslaught, it is highly unlikely that the dilution in significance will be uniform amongst all religious groups in India....this wil mean resistance to the unjust designs of Jihadi and EJ elements in the future will only decline......this will be further exacerbated if such elements have a large representation amongst the population........bottomline...by not dealing with this issue in parallel with development etc we really are digging a grave for ourselves in the future....
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