Tackling Islamic Extremism in India - 4

[vsudhir]

Godrej hosts Salman Rushdie, angers Muslims (TOI)

MUMBAI: An Islamic group in India is asking Muslims to boycott products of a top Indian business group if its owner does not apologise for hosting author Salman Rushdie on a brief holiday this week.

Rushdie stayed at the bungalow of the Godrej family while visiting Mumbai, where he was born and spent many of his early years. The author is a personal friend of the Godrejs, who are one of the big business families in India.

Time to call their bluff. Need to see Godrej's next quaterly report to see if sales have been significantly dented or not. I congratulate Godrej for courage, if nothing else. Heck, Godrej products deserve kafir support, I'll venture to say...

[prashanth]

Godrej hosts Salman Rushdie, angers Muslims (TOI)

This is precisely hooliganism. Hope whatever happened to taslima nasreen does not repeat now.

Any political intervention by the likes of our I&B minister must be sternly opposed, in case it happens.

[Dilbu]

Minority quota under review
[quote]The Centre is looking into the demand of minorities for reservation in educational institutions and government jobs.

Home minister Shivraj Patil today indicated that the government was not averse to the idea of giving land to landless members of minorities, just as it had been given to SC/ST and recently to forest dwellers.

Patil after inaugurating the annual conference of the State Minorities Commission also reassured minorities that their constitutional right to propagate their religion would be protected.

Referring particularly to the demand for reservation, he said whatever can be done for this purpose should be done. “We have to apply our mind how best to do this, and the government is looking into this aspect.â€

[derkonig]

[quote]“We have to apply our mind how best to do this, and the government is looking into this aspect.â€

[Pulikeshi]

That was why I asked if the Dharma came first or the Vedas first.

Chicken or egg?

That said, I saved your post “Which is older?â€

[shiv]

Question is can there be another way – a revival of activist Dharma?

Thank you for your kind comments Pulikeshi. It is a difficult concept to get through with pre-established mindsets.

Please hear me through folks and do not get irritated by my words.

It is important IMO to recall that the Vedas did not come out of thin air. It is also important to remember that they were not even written down in the early centuries. They were passed from memory.

(As a minor digression - if the passing from memory accumulated any errors, that can be judged by recalling the texts and looking for those errors. No Hindu ever asks for a literalist interpretation. It is when you claim that the Vedas as they have come down today are totally error free that you are then making a Quran out of your Vedas)

The Vedas described and qualified the Dharma that existed. The Vedas and associated literature especially the epic poems helped lay down guidelines on how the Dharma should be taken forward. The epics particularly describe normal human behavior and the conflicts that arose from that behavior and suggested guidelines for resolving those conflicts Dharmically.

If you look at an average Indian who has no exposure whatsoever to the Vedas, you find him following a degree of Dharma in his behavior and his life, in terms of duties that he must perform as a human, duties towards his parents, wife, children. The more aware among these may still not know anything about the Vedas - but he may openly state that something is his "Dharma". His action may be wrong. He may say "XYZ insulted my mother. It is my Dharma to protect my mother. So I killed XYZ"

Dharma (fortunately still) exists deep within Indian society. People who mistakenly ask me if I am looking for external validation do not understand the error made by Hindus who have lifted the Vedas (sacred as they may be) to a level in which they are equated with the Bible or Quran as "revealed" "holy" texts, forgetting that the Dharma is the fundamental basis for the Vedas and not the other way round. The Vedas and other texts are merely guides and explanatory notes that codify the Dharma. If there was no Dharma, the Vedas would not have come, nor the life-wisdom contained in the Ramayana or the Mahabharata

The minute you pin your Dharma down to texts - you are doing an Islam with Sanatana Dharma. You are forgetting that:

1) The Dharma came from the fundamental realization of what was what in the universe, and that was described in the texts.

2) Initially there were no texts, only narratives

3) Texts are a recent addition.

The Dharma was easy to propagate in the form of stories and parables so that every man woman and child could understand the Dharma from stories - from narratives, especially of the Ramayana, Mahabharata and the hajaar stories and side-stories these epics contain.

Propagating the Dharma did not need mugging up of the Vedas or indeed even any knowledge that Vedas exist.

Now let me get back to my own question about that backward, illiterate, poor 21st century Indian SC or ST potential convert who is asked if he is Hindu. He does not know the word Hindu. He does not know the name Sanatana Dharma. He will describe himself as a person, or perhaps a member of a family or a group or a tribe.

But he still lives Dharmically. Look at his lifestyle, his stories, his beliefs, what he respects and what he opposes and you will find in it all the things that we like to call a part of Hindu Dharma or Sanatana Dharma. That is what makes all these people our own.

But we Hindus are too clever for ourselves. We want to show how great we are and we kick the ball so hard towards the opposite goal that it travels around the entire Universe and then enters our own goal behind our backsides.

When we are asked what we are, we point to the Vedas. And the One God Coercive religion scholar looks deep at the Vedas finds faullts and gets you into a convoluted argument while you try to defend all the wonky stuff your texts contain. And when you are stuck in this argument defending your Vedas, the One God Coercive Religion scholar goes to the potential convert and asks him "What do you know of Vedas?". The man replies "Nothing". And then the One God Coercive Religion scholar smiles triumphantly and says of the Tribal or the backward caste Hindu - "This man is NOT a Hindu". Since Hindu Einsteins have failed to point out (or perhaps even realise) that the potential convert is a fellow Sanatan Dharmi who lives his life Dharmically, but have instead tried to argue that the Vedas have it all, they are stumped, wrongfooted and screwed.

This is what is happening today.

And the poor potential convert, Dharmic as he is, is ready to accept any new God. Not because he thinks the new God is better, but for the same "secular reason" that the Hindus "celebrate" Id or Christmas.

If we lose touch with our own people, and start looking at our books for answers, We lose our people, because our books don't tell us how to hold on to people unlike the books of the One God Coercive Religions.

[ShauryaT]

The weakness in this system is that a person who enters Islam from Sanatana Dharma is trapped in a prison of Islam that does not allow that person to leave at will.
…..
And any resistance to change from one faith to the other is also unacceptable. Any resistance to reconversion or furher conversion must be disallowed. The rules for conversion and reconversion must be free and without coercion. The rules for what you believe in should be free from coercion and the act of changing should be free from threat.

India currently allows conversion, but does not stop the fear and threat that people face if they wish to convert out of Islam. This is neither secular, nor fair, nor just, nor dharmic. It is sharia.

India has laws to punish a man if he promises marriage and then tries to wriggle out after sex. But India does not have laws to punish people who use the freedom afforeded by Sanatana Dharma to convert by making false promises and then not living up to those promises.

This is where the state has a role to play. After all, the monopoly of goonda giri (or rule of law) is a basic function of the state. Even a secular state, should be able to do at least that - that is preserve the right of free will. One does not even need UCC for such a thing in India, as the threat of violence will come under common criminal not personal civil law. What is needed is a basic strengthening of the state and a general non-tolerance by any group for this attitude. This attitude, is again, only possible if there is commonality of interests and a shared sense of identities. Something, that cannot be fostered, so long as hindus will be hindus and muslims, muslims. These two shall never meet.

If one can manage to implement the concept of a Hindu Muslim, the game changes. For clarity, an Indian Muslim is not a hindu muslim for while the IM maybe an honest citizen of the state, the IM does not share the cultural life of being an Indian, which is based on hindu culture. By definition, it means that a Hindu Muslim has dropped some of the eclusive oriented nature of their religion and does not look to Arabia for their cues on the appropriate way to live as a Muslim – IOW, the sunni theologians or the Mullahs have been marginalized.

When we say Sanatana Dharma, we must say that it preceded the books and it need not be tied down to those books. When Hindus voluntarily tie themselves down to unchanging books they are themselves making equalequal with Islam and Christianity. And when that happens Hindus and Hinduism can be picked off and roasted alive piecemeal just as we can roast Muslims alive on the statements that they tie themselves to in the Quran.

That was why I asked if the Dharma came first or the Vedas first.

Who are these so called right wing hindu fundamentalist organizations, who have tied sanatan dharma’s foundation spring from the Vedas or even to the supremacy of the Vedas?

1) What would make anyone think that a member of some particularly backward groups of SC/ST is a Sanatana Dharmi, particularly if he was out to prove otherwise?

2) If a sufficiently "benevolent" external entity spoke to such a person and pointed out to him the appropriate passages from selected Indian texts, and told him that he has nothing in common with Sanatan Dharma, what reply would that Indian be be able to give.

Conversions occur with rhetoric of this type and more.

Is being snooty and self confident all that we can do when the above can and does actually happen?

[/quote] So true. For it is exactly the rhetoric you describe above that helps external entities meddle in India. But, it is fruitful to ask, how did we get to such a state of affairs?

Also, once someone understands this, it is important to understand, how do you get out of this race to the bottom that Indian polity is currently engaged in. The more backward you are, the more the benefits and ….. votes.

[shiv]

When we say Sanatana Dharma, we must say that it preceded the books and it need not be tied down to those books. When Hindus voluntarily tie themselves down to unchanging books they are themselves making equalequal with Islam and Christianity. And when that happens Hindus and Hinduism can be picked off and roasted alive piecemeal just as we can roast Muslims alive on the statements that they tie themselves to in the Quran.

That was why I asked if the Dharma came first or the Vedas first.

Who are these so called right wing hindu fundamentalist organizations, who have tied sanatan dharma’s foundation spring from the Vedas or even to the supremacy of the Vedas?

Not organizations, but Hindus themselves - you can see it on this forum.

But why blame forum members. Hinduism has come to be more or less synonymous with "vedic religion".

For those who have no dispute with this I ask, did the vedas come first or the Dharma?

The Dharma is fundamental, the Vedas are secondary. It is the Dharma that is widesperad in India and it is the Dharma that was called Hinduism.

But even Hindus are now fooled into thinking that the Vedas gave us the Dharma and that the Dharma is secondary to following the writ of the Vedas.

This connection between Vedas and Dharma then leads us to the big divide in Hinduism in which the keepers of the Vedas (The "higher castes") are accused of being the powerful and wealthy suppressors of those who have little or no knowledge of the Vedas, the lower castes.

What is forgotten is that low or high - all share the Dharma. Knowledge of the Vedas is unnecessary for being Dharmic. Knowledge of the Dharma is sufficient.

The Dharma is the code that Indians live by.

This is forgotten and all that Hindus do is offer endless rationalizations and arguments. "
It's not caste. It's varna". "Manu said something, buit we don' tfollow that"; "The Vedas are important, but what Manu said is not".

SC's/STs had no access to Vedas - so we can ascribe no reason to say why they are Hindu. No wonder they are targets for conversion.

Hindus are so confused that they don't know beginning from end and this is BOTH the "secular" Hindus and those who call themselves true Hindus - who are called "Fundamentalist right wing" by seculars.

is it any wonder that all we hear is a contradicting caterwaul of what problems beset Hindus as they get poached?

[Rahul Mehta]

--- deleted -----

[Murugan]

For those who have no dispute with this I ask, did the vedas come first or the Dharma?

how this dipute and discussion will help in achieving the annihilation of terrorism?

hindus spent their precious time in such non-productive exercises.

[Murugan]

1) What would make anyone think that a member of some particularly backward groups of SC/ST is a Sanatana Dharmi, particularly if he was out to prove otherwise?

2) If a sufficiently "benevolent" external entity spoke to such a person and pointed out to him the appropriate passages from selected Indian texts, and told him that he has nothing in common with Sanatan Dharma, what reply would that Indian be be able to give.

Conversions occur with rhetoric of this type and more.

Is being snooty and self confident all that we can do when the above can and does actually happen?

conversionss occur not with rhetorice of this type (point No. 2), IMHO.

if this would have been true, all of the sc/sts and uneducated and poor hindus wd have converted to that benevolent soul's religion. why that has not happened.

conversions occur to:

1) fools (may be)
2) greedy
3) poor and weak people (by coercion)
4) frustrated with own religion (very thin chances)

***

the benevolent external entities are themselves fools and do not understand their own religion.

One cannot expect every sc/st and other hindu poors to be expert in sanatan dharma or vedas and that somebody points out certain text from certain vedas - - even non-sc/st hindu brahmins know nohing about even 726 verses wala Bhagvad gita forget about other texts/sanatan dharma and blah blah. but is it easy to convert them? the answer is NO.

one cannot even expect the non-hindus to be master in their texts.
i trust hindus benevolent souls will not go to them and point out that - hey, your text is having these flaws and mistakes.

the whole argument and discussion is leading nowhere to annihilation of either terrorism or conversion.

IM (intellectual masturbation) IMho

***

when the converted sc/st or obc compare themselves to non-converted sc/st/obc they will find that the non-converted sc/st/obc are doing better, far better in all spheres.

they will understand one day - what conversion brough to their life - thats why many are re-converting to sc/st (if not hinduism, or sanatan dharma or vedic dharma).

[Pulikeshi]

For those who have no dispute with this I ask, did the vedas come first or the Dharma?

how this dipute and discussion will help in achieving the annihilation of terrorism?

hindus spent their precious time in such non-productive exercises.

Perhaps you are right it is all fruitless. However, if we cannot unite the "tribes" under one banner - Dharma
Do we have any hope to defend and take the battle to their doorstep?
Just preparation for Dushta Sikshana and Sishta Rakshana onlee

[Murugan]

I agree that the purpose is:

Sat rakshanay, khala nigrahnay|

but i suggest a different thread, like "curbing conversion and anda pahele ya murgi puzzle"

[Rahul Mehta]

The minute you pin your Dharma down to texts - you are doing an Islam with Sanatana Dharma.

Particularly when that book is uneditable.

If we lose touch with our own people, and start looking at our books for answers, We lose our people, because our books don't tell us how to hold on to people unlike the books of the One God Coercive Religions.

We dont need books to hold people. we only need to look at the ways West does and COPY these ways.

----

For those who have no dispute with this I ask, did the vedas come first or the Dharma?

how this dipute and discussion will help in achieving the annihilation of terrorism?

hindus spent their precious time in such non-productive exercises.

AWMTA

[Prem]

Vedas /Vedanta is the knowledge of Dharma . So Dharma has predominance over any text. Realization is more importrant than Knowledge.

[Sanku]

IMVHO the Dharma or Ved debate is a strawman. AFAIK even a cursory reading of the Veda's says that the truth existed and it was revealed to the wise men by thinking constantly. With the obvious corollary that they can be made better by thinking more.

It is just that (un)fortunately Hindu Dharma has enough intelluectals to map out all the contours of Dharma over time and codify it in MANY texts. There is very little to add now (except for Dharma when not dealing with Dharmic's but even that is covered somewhat) THis makes the religion complete and hence a little static to those who want to reinvent it since there reinvention already has been probably reinvented twice before.

Only a UC eiltemen (so sorry for this) or a HISI will say that Veda's are dharma or are a fountainhead of Hinduism.

Dharma is the fountain head; Vedas are one of the rivers from which you drink.

However just because Dharma came first it does not mean that Veda's position is any less preeminent.

There is absolutely nothing to gain by trying to see Veda's as the "book" we are only playing to the rules set by others. A self goal.

However if you consider that not being aquainted with holy books (not just Veda's) as a mean of being connected with religion for masses is a problem.

And I completely agree; forget the SC converts etc; the problem is also seen with Makualyites converts.

The solution is not to fall all over ourselves denying our heritage and finding a common denominator which fits the rules set by outsiders.

The solution then is to make easy access to the streams of Dharmic thoughts (hindu) to all and sundry; with both books and for those who cant /wont read through other means.

Seen in the most cyncical way y not using the book as a support; you are wasting a important weapon in your armory; I employ convert Xians and I know how given a "book" helps them convert.

We should spread our own "book(s)"; there is none whatso ever dichotomy between Dharma being supreme and some of its understanding being codified.

Lets please stop scoring self goals once again.

[Pulikeshi]

It is just that (un)fortunately Hindu Dharma has enough intelluectals to map out all the contours of Dharma over time and codify it in MANY texts. There is very little to add now (except for Dharma when not dealing with Dharmic's but even that is covered somewhat) THis makes the religion complete and hence a little static to those who want to reinvent it since there reinvention already has been probably reinvented twice before.

The full cup cannot receive anything new...

I hope you realize that when you suggest that since Dharma is already cooked and it is already codified with all there is to know - if that were the case then Dharma is no different than, guess what, the other sources of perfect knowledge - Koran or the Bible or the Das Kapital or the Zend Avesta, etc.


It will take time to understand activist Dharma but that is the only unifying force.
It is also important that we understand ourselves first before we try to understand the enemy.

[Sanku]

if that were the case then Dharma is no different than, guess what, the other sources of perfect knowledge - Koran or the Bible or the Das Kapital or the Zend Avesta, etc.

I don't see how; for my assertions was that the contours of Dharma have already been fully mapped. Which means that any new thinking will end up retracing many steps traced before. The crucial difference is what I am saying will NOT happen because the canon is closed but because the Canon is explored sufficiently.

To explain with a example -- You are welcome to rethink Newtonian physics but you may discover reatlitvity without changing the understanding of Newtonian physics. This perhaps was not true in 1900 but is now so basically Newtonian physics is indeed thought about.

However if for any reason; the paths have to be retraced no problem. I don't mean that a reader of physics is not entitled to right a new book with a new approach to understanding Physics. Nor am I saying that it will not help. But what I am saying is the first step is to actually teach Physics through any of its books to children.

To say that since laws of motion existed; since time immemorial; Principa mathmatica is not a important text and to run away from it is sheer folly of nth order.

All the disconnect is happening because you folks are trying to force fit Hinduism into lesser models for other religions.

I agree with ShauyraT that there is a need to change the game and play it by our rules. While I agree that we should not lose when playing by their rules (i.e. say Hinduism is not religion) at the same time there is no reason to restrict ourselves to those rules alone.

Further there is no Hindu right wing; that label and everything associated with it is a HISI construct. At least we on this board can stop flogging that canard longer.

We may not have a choice to force others to change their vocabulary so HISI will say Hindu right wing; but at least we don't have to give currency to those folks and speak in our own language.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note nothing I have said before goes against the importance of "activist Dharma" its just that I will chose to call it rediscovery.

By any name it will smell just as sweet.

[shiv]

For those who have no dispute with this I ask, did the vedas come first or the Dharma?

how this dipute and discussion will help in achieving the annihilation of terrorism?

hindus spent their precious time in such non-productive exercises.

You don't need to join this non productive exercise. But you are unable to keep off and that is not my problem.

Either way you do not really have an answer to my question. But then it is a non productive discussion so why would you want to apply your mind?

Never mind. We must move on. I will continue my unproductive discussion while confident Hindus solve their problems

Hinduism is a Vedic Religion

Brahmins are Vedic scholars

Untouchables/Dalits/ Harijans (about 300 million in India) - SC/STs do not know about Vedas, and have been kept out. Therefore they are not Hindus. Hindus who know vedas should not worry about their conversion

The conversion problem is solved at least partially because Hinduism loses nothing when non Hindus convert.

Now what is the percentage of Hindus in India? As long as the majority are not Hindus, we will need to look at majority view about what the definition of Islamic extremism is. Hindu grievances about extremism can be looked at when they can show that they are in the majority. Let the Vedic religionists show the following that they have for their Vedic religion. They could be a minority in India.

Do Hindus have any answer to this sort of rhetoric other than anger? It is so easy to put up these arguments and get frothing at the mouth.

If Hindus get angry and agitate - it is Hindu extremism. Islamic extremism is a reaction to that. Even the formation of Pakistan was a reaction to what was expected to be unchecked Hindu extremism.

One solution to Islamic extremism could be to check Hindu extremism first.

[Sanku]

Hinduism is a Vedic Religion

Brahmins are Vedic scholars

Shiv at least on this forum no one (IMVHO) supports the above assertion or thinks like that. Poster have poster has clarified quite the opposite!!

Why are you trying to create a Straw man? No doubt there is a deep piskological reasoning to where you want to get; but I wonder if you are taking the right route this time.

[shiv]

Hinduism is a Vedic Religion

Brahmins are Vedic scholars

Shiv at least on this forum no one (IMVHO) supports the above assertion or thinks like that. Poster have poster has clarified quite the opposite!!

Why are you trying to create a Straw man? No doubt there is a deep piskological reasoning to where you want to get; but I wonder if you are taking the right route this time.

That is the whole problem Sanku.

When I say uncomfortable things they are dismissed unanswered as "we don't accept it".

But there is an underlying reason for making such an allegation. The views we have of what is "extremism" is totally dependent on what we perceive as our self image or identity as Hindus.

And not all Hindus share that identity and not all Hindus even agree on what extremism is.

Long ago on this series of threads I tried to suggest that the definition of Islamic extremism should be violent terrorism - so nobody can disagree. Then I tried to make a whole list of complaints against Muslims to see if anyone felt any empathy for those complaints. That rang no bells.

People are quick to recognise routes that do NOT lead to solutions for extremism. And those accusations come thick and fast when Hindu identity is questioned.

But it IS a chicken or egg situation. Hindu identity has everything to do with what Islamic extremism is seen to be by Hindus. This is what I have been trying to point out.

Up to a stage - talk of Hindu identity keeps people comfortable. But the minute certain lines are crossed - anger erupts and people say foul "We are not going to reach solutions for extremism this way"

Hindus on this forum are unable even to say what they think Islamic extremism is - although everyone gets worked up when I make allegations that I have seen both islamic and Christian sources making. Those allegations do come up. They cause anger. We have no clar answers, and yet we are angry as islamic extremism that we are unable to agree upon and pinpoint.

But the fact that we are making no headway about Islamic extremism is remembered only when I push te right buttons by questioning Hindu identity in the same manner that Muslims and Christians have done.

[Pulikeshi]

All the disconnect is happening because you folks are trying to force fit Hinduism into lesser models for other religions

Perhaps you are correct.
However, some disconnects are required for new connections to become possible.

[Sanku]

That is the whole problem Sanku.

When I say uncomfortable things they are dismissed unanswered as "we don't accept it".

But there is an underlying reason for making such an allegation. The views we have of what is "extremism" is totally dependent on what we perceive as our self image or identity as Hindus.

I see what you are saying; but the a response "we dont accept it" can also mean that perhaps you are wrong on that count and people are not disagreering just because they are uncomfortable.

If you were to say that treating Hindusim is Vedic religion is a source of problem in real world at least for some time in recent history I would probably agree.

If you were to say that all Hindus consider that and that is the basis of Hinduism I wont.

If you say by valuing the Veda's we are doing the same thing as religion of the book; thats patently unfair and wrong.

Specifically since you raised this question in context of conversions et al -- What I think and what I said before is something I strongly believe in.

The problem of Hindu identity in "recent" past; as opposed to the time when it was being changed at the point of the sword; is that the "Brhamins" (and I use the varna here and not the caste) were not able to spread the Dharma through the land. Consequently there is no clear realization to a great mass of Indians on how they are part of the connected whole.

So as you mention there is dharma in practice (old memes being carried on) however the robust intellectual foundation for the daily practices which the Dharma is based on has been lost.

There is a need to recreate the Hindu intellectual space. The easiest thing is to go back to our texts for inspiration. (Chose your fav text) and spread it around.

Most converts dont event understand what changes when they change their religion; what they think is that they are merely swapping a deity. In fact I can say that under usual circumstances the vast masses of Indians are Dharmic (Muslims included) many Xians from Kerla are nearly indistinguishable from Keralite Hindu's in almost all respect (barring beef maybe) to north Indians in their value system. Only a deity is swapped.

The problem is that sooner or later the different intelluctual foundation behind the faiths finally begins to assert itself (usually at the bidding of a firangi power) and many Dharmic Indians following other faiths are then torn into two. Usually it is not pretty for either Hindus or the other faith. But then people usually dont understand that the problem begin long ago when people swapped deities without fully understanding the intellectual base behind the change. Many generations usually also elapse by then and folks then have a problem.

If you want to reinvent another Dharmic faith a la Sikhism -- sure by all means -- whats another label in a country full of labels.

[Murugan]

You don't need to join this non productive exercise. But you are unable to keep off and that is not my problem.

i am unable to keep off when i see half-cooked theories to denigrate hindus come in fore.

And you know, doctor, it is irresistible to bait laid by you...

[Murugan]

But it IS a chicken or egg situation. Hindu identity has everything to do with what Islamic extremism is seen to be by Hindus. This is what I have been trying to point out.

which hindus are being talked about? gujarat's hindu? western india's hindu? sout indian hindus? east indian? kashmir's hindu? or Jammu's?

will we have the same picture? do hindus see the extremism with same prism?

in one of such exercises of trying to point out what islamic extremism lead to loss of one beautiful state to extremists.

where is the action? or only IM?

[Sanku]

Forget SC's most urban Indians of any caste do not know whats in the Veda's ; a large majority of Children in the metros dont know most "legends" in their religion; 98% folks probably dont even know the basic rudiments of history. I can bet 90% of posters on the board fit into the above paradigm.

Today ALL HINDUS are a maleechas in the strictest sense. Why then do we want to keep Hinduism alive ? For the rare 1% pandit?

Yet looking at the pain at the loss of our religion being inflicted yet again by the state and yet again at the point of the sword the country rises up in turmoil and asks for a Ram Mandir.

Why --- This does not compute.

Shiv et al; I think you guys are falling shy of looking at the obvious conclusions of the very posts that you make (or may be not -- maybe you are playing a game within a game) but thats what it looks like from the outside.

[Murugan]

If Hindus get angry and agitate - it is Hindu extremism. Islamic extremism is a reaction to that. Even the formation of Pakistan was a reaction to what was expected to be unchecked Hindu extremism.

One solution to Islamic extremism could be to check Hindu extremism first.

Never mind. We must move on. I will continue my unproductive discussion while confident Hindus solve their problems

and after 150 years call it an aberration.

quite confusing

[Murugan]

Hindus on this forum are unable even to say what they think Islamic extremism is - although everyone gets worked up when I make allegations that I have seen both islamic and Christian sources making. Those allegations do come up. They cause anger. We have no clar answers, and yet we are angry as islamic extremism that we are unable to agree upon and pinpoint.

But the fact that we are making no headway about Islamic extremism is remembered only when I push te right buttons by questioning Hindu identity in the same manner that Muslims and Christians have done.

Because the benevolent souls of islam and christians are asking uncomfotable question do we have to go to school and learn defend our vedas and value of sanatan dharma?

When will we take battle to them and stop defending and covering our backside..?

(even if we become proactive, some will call it aberration onlee?)

if (learned, literated, hardcore, angry, confused) hindus in THIS forum are unable to EVEN say what they think Islamic extremism is, how will we make headway to largely poor in english, semi-literate, not-so-learned, 50% confused common Hindus of the land?

[Murugan]

Shiv et al; I think you guys are falling shy of looking at the obvious conclusions of the very posts that you make (or may be not -- maybe you are playing a game within a game) but thats what it looks like from the outside.

Yes sanku, game for a larger good


***

Doctor,

i may be crossing some line but to tell you - personally i have great respect for you. (this may NOT be true for your posts and comments )

BR is a desperate child's (thats me) dream come true.

[Murugan]

Forget SC's most urban Indians of any caste do not know whats in the Veda's ; a large majority of Children in the metros dont know most "legends" in their religion; 98% folks probably dont even know the basic rudiments of history. I can bet 90% of posters on the board fit into the above paradigm.

it is not possible to know what is in the vedas. that ideas was once prevailing that every brahmin should know but vedas being vast they had to bifurcate the community.

Rigvedi brahmins were further bifurcated according to the part of rigveda they are studying. Joshi surname was given to one of the groups which was identified to learn astrology (jyotishi)

Vyas were having particular task to segregation etc, Upadhyaya and Adhvaryu's had something to with rituals.

Yajurved was first bifurcated into krishna and shukla yajurveda and Dwivedis were the family name given to that group.

Samved was allocated to a group who are Trivedis, Ravana was a trivedi -the student of the third - the samved.

Chaturvedis had to study Atharvaved.

but it is not possible to master all the four vedas. even mastring one veda is not possible in one birth.

Next came upanishada or vedanta - the extraction of vedas - which ultimately created a clear line of thinking for students of philosophy.

And there are many puranas, legends and so called gods - man made or theosophical or just puranic.

Nobody necessarily is required to follow all of them or even one but can still be hindu !!!???!!!

And, if we are talking about history - we are only taught sultanate, mughal and british history. thanx to red-menace and secular political machinery at work.

***

Today ALL HINDUS are a maleechas in the strictest sense. Why then do we want to keep Hinduism alive ? For the rare 1% pandit?

if we dont want to keep hinduism alive, be ready to offer namaz and cover famales in burkhas, learn madrassa math and start infighting with the same believers ... another option open is to give your money to agents who will convert people around? but if population of pandit is in question - you will hardly find that 1% in other relgions too.

***

Yet looking at the pain at the loss of our religion being inflicted yet again by the state and yet again at the point of the sword the country rises up in turmoil and asks for a Ram Mandir.

this is really very painful. u r right.

[Rahul Mehta]

Only a UC eiltemen (so sorry for this) or a HISI will say that Veda's are dharma or are a fountainhead of Hinduism.

And why are you sorry about it ?

[shiv]

Yet looking at the pain at the loss of our religion being inflicted yet again by the state and yet again at the point of the sword the country rises up in turmoil and asks for a Ram Mandir.

Why --- This does not compute.

Shiv et al; I think you guys are falling shy of looking at the obvious conclusions of the very posts that you make (or may be not -- maybe you are playing a game within a game) but thats what it looks like from the outside.

Well there are games within games within games. But that is not what I am starting out to say.

The problem as I seem to sense it is NOT just "Islamic extremism" or "Islamic expansionism". Magically removing that will not magically change things - but it will go some way. But there are multiple other grievances that come up time and time again that basically indicate (to me) a deep sense of Hindu loss. A loss of identity and a loss of values. For that reason, and to that extent this thread is pointless and has served only to educate me, and perhaps some others.

This loss of values and identity is being seen as multiple insults and multiple restrictions in a land that did not have such restrictions. The restrictions are in speech and action and in a myriad other ways - some which I am unable to pinpoint right now - but may be able to do at some point in time in the future.

The feeling that I sense among many Hindus can perhaps be aptly described by that last India-Australia test. The rules were bent or broken for Australia, but when it came to India "The Rules" had to be upheld.

A similar situation holds true for Hindu psyche. A Hindu land was ravaged and plundered and changed an no existing rules were followed. Now we find that the same players exist, but when Hindus have to play they are forced to play by restrictive rules. The other teams are allowed to use all the old rules that they brought in. And that includes violence and conversion by force.

And the state in which Hindus play by these restricting, choking, one sided rules is (mistakenly?) called "secularism". Any attempt to point out that the rules are biased leads to the accusation that it is "Hindu extremism".

The choices Hindus face are either to explode in anger, or lie back and take it till their past, their Dharma fades into history in the land in which it was born. I do not know at this point if there is room for compromise. Since the subject is extremely important - even if it has to be spoken of as "Hindu extremism" it still needs to

Let me state a personal opinion.

i think this particular thread needs to give way to a better named thread to indicate. I believe this post of mine could be a starting point of a thread entitled "Fallout of a sense of loss of Hindu identity in India" or "Loss of Hindu identity in India"

Problems seen in India be they riots, communal disturbances or even terrorism and its fallout can be linked to a Hindu sense of loss - that I would like to term as a loss of Hindu identity. I believe that a better understanding of would be satisfying to me, even if it does not point to any specific solutions.

There is definitely a sense of loss of identity and trying to cover that over and pretending it does not exist would be wrong.

[ShauryaT]

There is definitely a sense of loss of identity and trying to cover that over and pretending it does not exist would be wrong.

True words should not be suppresed in the name of PC notions. I will say Tathastu. Please start a thread - and my 2c, the tackling of Islamism in India runs through the Hindu soul. Meaning, before we tackle Islamism, we have to come to grips on what has been lost and how to revive the Dharmic ways and lastly, provide a framework for Dharmic ways to evolve.

As I said earlier, cannot go all the way back and cannot ignore the 1000 year rape - will simply have to come to grips with reality. If the Hindus want to come out of this "reactionary" mode, they will have to come to grips with all the events and learn to control our reaction to events and maybe even shape events, some day.

There is a deep sense of loss. For me, it runs deep, to the point that, in my deepest hearts, never before bought on my lips or the pen, I question, if Hindu systems are a route to failure, in the world we live today.

[vsudhir]

The attempt to redefine and shape the meaning of 'Hindu' is ongoing. Its an identity crisis whose time was long overdue.

Recall that the adharmics define their identity in opposition to 'the other' or the 'not like us' i.e. in relative terms all the while professing absolutist notions of faith, piety, divinity and spirituality.

Recall Vivekanada's desire to see Hindus develop an 'izlamic body' while retaining a dharmic soul.

Seems, finally that is beginning to take shape as we Hindus seek to define themselves in opposition to the adharmics. HISIs and psecs will immediately jump and say we're fascistic bigots trying to revive Golwalkar's and Savarkar's project which then was influwenced by European fascism blah blah. Ignore their bilge.

See what Modi is doing. No caste-vaste ka chakkar. Stress Hindu-ness as in faith and traditions indigenous to this land. And define it in opposition to all that was not born here. interesting

JMTs etc.

[Pulikeshi]

it is not possible to know what is in the vedas. that ideas was once prevailing that every brahmin should know but vedas being vast they had to bifurcate the community.

Murugan, this is a regurgitation of dhimmi education. The vedas were predominantly sung (if not penned) by Kshatriyas, only later by Brahmanas.

Dharma comes from Dhr and Rta the roots for stability and righteousness.
All texts and all divisions came later. Dharma evolves it is not tied to any fountainhead or original source.

Whether you are a cobbler or a sepoy, a barber or a brahmin, a business magnate or a pauper - we all live by a collective Dharma.
One that keeps the strands of society together.
We all participate in evolving that Dharma in each age and each eon.

I seriously believe Sanku and you are arguing in parallel and challenging the "reinvention" of Dharma, but you do not offer any alternate definition of Islamic Extremism that I can understand, other than each sub-group of Hindu's perhaps have a different perception of what Islamic Extremism means to them.

[ramana]

If Islam is spreading "its tentacles" now in Europe - it means that old Charlse Martel and Reconquista victories were too a temporary aberration.

Correct.

That is why there is re-examination of the entire post Reformation dogma going on in the West. What they are trying to come with grips is that all the Enlightenment, Positivisim and Modernism etc are workable only in a Western European Christian milieu. So all these political correctness stuff works when all these exist in Western Europe. When faced with an implacable dogma they crumble and lead to reversal of the gains of Charles Martel and the Reconquista. Its the Anglo-Saxons who have unleashed or unchained the Islamic dragon on the Europeans and the world. So the historic ghost of 'Eastern' conquest of Europe is coming back to haunt them. But the AsS dont acknowledge their culpability.

Post WWII the Europeans had given the Anglo Saxons the sword to become the arbiters of Western destiny. Unfortunately it has become a repeat of the Panchatantra story of Monkey with the sword.

[ramana]

Pulikeshi, Recall in Mahabharata one of the stories says that it was butcher Dhramavyadhi who was a repository of knowledge and the sage goes to him to learn the basics.

[shiv]

but you do not offer any alternate definition of Islamic Extremism that I can understand, other than each sub-group of Hindu's perhaps have a different perception of what Islamic Extremism means to them.

True Pulikeshi - but let me sum up some (personal) observations based on about 1000 messages in this series of threads.

And folks please read through the WHOLE message before commenting on on individual lines. Thanks

Despite dangling bait as to what "Islamic extremism" might mean, there was no real interest in following that up.

However whenever the thread was diverted to probe Hindu psyche, it generated interest and heat, (more of that below) but kept cooling off the minute an attempt was made to link Hindu psyche with the questions of Islamic extremism - either as Hindus apology or as Hindu aggression.

I could find only two other directions that invited interest. The first was several attempts to discuss "Christianism" and conversion which were admin-suppressed.

The other was a visible expression of anger or dismay when certain red lines were crossed regarding Hindu identity. Let me explain. I have alluded to interest generated by the probing of Hindu psyche. As long as the probing of Hindu psyche was done on comfortable familiar lines that Hindus either see themselves or like to see themselves as, there was interest but no opposition or anger. The minute the "playing with psyche" extended to what Hindus do not want to be seen as, it triggered opposition.

It appears that Hindus still get upset at the same old allegations and understanding/misunderstanding that have become rampant in "public knowledge"

It also appears (to me) that Hindus in general still don't understand what has hit them and how it has hit them. They just know they have been hit and that they don't like it. And because they don't like it they hit out at everything that is making them uncomfortable or has made them uncomfortable. It is not just Islamic extremism - but multiple things, Islamic behaviour, the demands placed on Hindus to adjust to that, conversions and accusations of false Gods, and what is seen as traitorous collusion of some Hindus who do not understand "real" Hinduism.

More than anything else Hindu anger seems to be directed at multiple factors that have misinterpreted and misquoted Hindu knowledge, history and thought which are considered as ancient but eternally valuable gems of knowledge that have been revered by Hindus like people of other religions may revere (their particular) god. The smearing, discarding and insulting of what Hindu literature had to give to the world today, and the contempt with which anything "Hindu" has been dealt with as the world goes about either reinventing the wheel or, from a Hindu viewpoint, dealing with world issues adharmically (and stupidly) causes great seething anger among Hindus.

But they can't put their finger on it. There are too many things that cause anger and irritation is a world that is fairly stupid and unjust (not dharmic) from a Hindu viewpoint that dealing with just one single issue "Islamic extremism" is pointless. From a dharmic viewpoint, Islam itself is extremism.

So I think we need to approach the future from a different angle. We cannot approach it from the viewpoint of a reductionist who looks at individual insult and irritations and tries to solve them. This is like walking into a thorny bush and trying to avoid individual thorns. The bush itself must be evaded or removed.

I personally do not think the majority of Hindus have realized this yet. I think Hindus are living in a world of mourning and grievance without being able to pinpoint what is bugging them mainly because - looked at from a dharmic Hindu viewpoint there is plenty in the world to cause this bugging.

Dharma never asks one to shut one's mouth about what is considered wrong. But secularism and political correctness force people to shut their mouths about what is wrong. So Hindus do not even get to discuss what they see as a dharmic world even at a discussion point level. On the other hand it has become quite kosher and acceptable to laugh, deride. misinterpret and trash Hindu thought, words, history or knowledge and it is quite proper to be that way.

From a Hindu viewpoint, it is quite clear that both the religious institutions and religious scholars of Islam and Christianity whose words do count in a world that calls itself "secular" have played a very major role in Hindus loss. The world describes itself as secular, but the worldview from a Hindus viewpoint does not get the sort of airing that the worldview from a Christian or Islamic viewpoint does. From the Hindu viewpoint the most irritating thing about that is that nowhere is this more true than in India, where the Hindu view gets trashed easily by an India that lives off views borrowed from abroad.

Looked at dispassionately (as I have tried to do) this is totally unacceptable. The Hindu view of life and the world is just as precious as that of anyone else, and the Hindu sense of loss can only be repaired by allowing them to see and speak the way they want to see the world and speak about it. There is nothing wrong in that.

[niran]

Shiv Sir,
You have a way to express your thoughts. the above post hit right at the solar-plexus.

Thanks a lot .

[Pulikeshi]

The quest for purity and its consequences - another perspective

Lessons from Pakistan

January 18, 2008

When we retrace our steps in history perhaps we can learn some lessons from the unfortunate situation Pakistan is in today.

After partition Pakistan's population had 15 percent Hindus and 2 percent Christians. If Pakistan had promoted diversity then, the next generation would have grown up in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society and exercised more tolerance.

General Zia-ul-Haq during his tenure as President systematically erased this multi-cultural heritage replacing it by radical 'Islamicisation' of civil society and the army. The rich Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh legacy that was common between Pakistan and India was forgotten. Had they recognised that their ancestors were also part of these traditions, they would have imbibed and kept alive some of those values and that perhaps would have made them more tolerant and less violent. When people dispose of their own heritage it makes them intolerant and fanatical.

Pakistan, a land where many an ancient university existed and Ayurveda texts were written, where Hinduism and other religions flourished, has today seemingly forgotten its tradition with little respect for these religions. Unlike India, where the contribution of the Mughal empire is recognised and honoured, in Pakistan, honouring its diverse traditions and culture has been ignored. The result of this has been a mono-cultural, mono-religious education that has made them radical. Lack of exposure to her own heritage has cost Pakistan dearly.

When I visited Pakistan a few years ago, I met with several journalists and interacted with thousands of people. To my amazement they seemed to know very little about India's freedom movement or Mahatma Gandhi [Images] and his principles.

The young people that I met there had very little knowledge of either ayurveda, yoga or our rich Sanskrit and Vedic heritage that is common to both countries. Tolerance and appreciation of other cultures have to be developed from a very young age. Children in Pakistan know nothing about the Bhakti movement, the spiritual renaissance which the continent once witnessed.

Their knowledge of Mahatma Gandhi is limited to the fact that he was a Hindu saint and a freedom fighter and not much beyond that. And they lack knowledge of many other saints and Sikh gurus who have traveled to and lived in Pakistan; even of people like Chanakya who wrote the Artha Shastra, and lived most of his life in a university in Taxila.

By tampering with history books educationists have done great damage to the society. The soft power they appear to wield ultimately brings out a hardened attitude in the people.

Extremist groups, who, by and large, comprise people not educated in the broad spectrum of knowledge, tend to be very insular. Unfortunately today, even in India, seeds of these tendencies can be seen in protests about "Vande Materam" being sung in schools and colleges or a fatwa issued to an actor for visiting a Ganesh festival or objections about Valentine's Day celebrations.

This should be unequivocally condemned by society as a whole. A composite society will always promote harmony and peace and put a check on extremism. It is clear that people who espouse violence today such as Naxalites and religious extremists in India and across borders have little respect for Gandhi.

Since partition, the growth of the minority population in India has been manifold while Pakistan's minority population has dwindled from 15 percent to just 1 percent. The biggest mistake that Pakistan made was in not supporting its minority communities. Fifteen percent Hindus would have turned the country into a more democratic, liberal society. But when this 15 percent was annihilated, converted or sent out of Pakistan and were replaced by mono-religious zealots and it has weighed heavily on Pakistan, leading to total chaos and fundamentalism.

Though India also has seen communal tensions, by and large the society is tolerant. Extremism in one religion does not remain contained in one. Its shadow spills over to others as well which is evident in Buddhist monks taking to the streets in Thailand, Malaysia and Myanmar.

Honouring the Hindu minority would not have been a threat to its Islamic identity, particularly because in Hinduism there is nothing such as proselytizing or conversion.

The two countries born to freedom sixty years ago clearly took different paths.

Sri Sri Ravishankar is the founder of the Art of Living Foundation.