Non-Western Worldview

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SwamyG
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by SwamyG »

Please ignore the rhetoric in the article. I post the article as I find fascinating insights into USA.
Why the US is an economic ...
My choice nuggets:

{Present forms of governments and economics have been lot influenced by the Western culture. Hopefully one day, when the East becomes a mighty entity, the Eastern values will influence these.}
But the problem with understanding economics, especially when articulated by economists is that they understand and explain economics as a discipline completely disconnected with the larger question of how culture and civilisational values impact economics.
{It is touted, sometimes, that in the East the support structure from the family and the society is better than the West.}
This revolution, he believes, has its roots in the Christian Protestantism which provided a moral basis for the promotion of individualist behaviour while simultaneously weakening other tendencies towards group life. This is evidenced by the disintegration of even the nuclear family and community with a concomitant rise in social isolation within the US.
Subsequent thinkers have even suggested that not even the family is necessary for human sustenance. Based on such extreme ideas, constitutional experts in the US argue that parents and children may have mutual obligations of love and respect, but parental authority should end when the children are capable of reasoning things out on their own.
{This is a great piece.... often our ancient texts talk about different roles and different kinds of duties in various stages of our lives. In the cycle of 'samsara' we all have our own duties to keep the society running. And they also prescribe ways to get the heck out of 'samsara'.}
And the fundamental assumption that has driven such political thought has been that man is born not with duties but with rights and rights alone. Whatever duties he takes on, he acquires as a result of his free will -- neither necessitated by law nor expected by society.
We in the East start from one end of the spectrum, the West starts from the other end; we meet somewhere between and hopefully we have our view points asserted as much the other.
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Attention Ramana, Shiv

Post by shaardula »

Attention Ramana & Shiv and other mods.
didnot know where to post this.

very important steps in deconstruction and reconstruction of indian worldview.
http://www.youtube.com/cultuurwetenschap

a perspective
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2007/12/09/sto ... 090400.htm

What is the framework you would use to define Hinduism in this conference?

The definition will only come later. We would first need some kind of description. We will look at traditions first. Is it possible to demarcate traditions? Can we, for example, say that Buddhist traditions are completely different from Advaitin traditions? Do they overlap? Where do you draw the line? Should you draw the line? Why draw the line? These are the kinds of questions that will be asked.

The plurality of Indian traditions has led to them being described as “deficient” religions. An attempt of this conference is to start developing new ways of thinking about these traditions, finding out what their strengths are and how it might be possible for us to recover their essence and explain them in 21st century language. It makes no sense to speak of chittasuddhi, manasuddhi, atman, etc. because many of us don’t even know to what these terms refer. We would have to explain the concepts in a simple language — English in this case, because it is the language of the present time.

Do you think part of the problem in understanding Hindu concepts like atman is that we don’t speak Sanskrit any more? And most of our philosophical texts are in Sanskrit.

No, because Sanskrit, in the first place, was never a spoken language. It was a language of the literati who wrote the texts. It is not simply the absence of Sanskrit that creates a problem. The problem lies in transmitting words, but not their underlying meanings and theories. One could, of course, read up Patanjali’s Yogasutra, but it is very difficult to agree with his theories of the gross body, the subtle body etc. These kinds of explanations are both inadequate and unscientific.

But is there no understanding beyond scientific understanding?

No, but what I’m going to say is something more interesting. Indian insights in themselves are scientific in nature. What we need to do is understand and develop these extraordinary insights into the nature and structure of human psychology that no sociology, psychology or political science has ever come even remotely close to doing. And we have to re-formulate in 21st century language what was formulated 3,000 years ago in languages and idioms of that time.
why is this conference relevant?
it is very simple. if it is the case that the research programme we are doing is true. then most of the social policies in a country like india and most of the political posturing is based on nothing. so, in that sense it will to have to reconfigure certain political constellations and certain social policies which have become the corner stone and characteristic of india after indian independence.

so the relevance would be this: if you are able to get this into the common, commonsenses of it somehow or the other i think this is going to mean an immense change in india society ...
Lots of work... but this i had posted a link to earlier.
The Secular State and Religious Conflict: Liberal Neutrality and the Indian Case of Pluralism
-- S. N. Balagangadhara and Jakob De Roover
http://heathenfaqs.googlepages.com/jopp1.pdf
ramana
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

Was Nazism a new Islam for Europe? IOW a normative process for Germanic/Central and Eastern Europeans? Islam was similarly developed for Arab people.
Thanks, ramana
John Snow
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by John Snow »

It is said that during the times of Kalidasa, everybody used to speak Sanskrit, according to historical documents.

Also when Hala wrote Gatha Sapthasati in Pali it was well known that people only were using the snakrit for common puposes.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by abhischekcc »

ramana wrote:Was Nazism a new Islam for Europe? IOW a normative process for Germanic/Central and Eastern Europeans? Islam was similarly developed for Arab people.
Thanks, ramana
Ramana,

There were several factors supporting growth of Nazism, besides the prevailing socio-economic conditions in Germany.

I have earlier written about British and American support for Nazi movement, and then later Nazi Germany.

But I have never spoken about the German elite. They have been trying to unite Europe under their leaderhip for several centuries. First, the Hapsburgs tried to unite/control Europe by marriage alliances. Marie Antoinette was German, so was the wife of Tsar Nicholas, last Tsar of Russia. This effort of the Germans ultimately ended by WW2.

Then the elite tried a more direct approach - war. This was the impulse for their support for Nazis. This effort ended in WW2.

Then when sex and violence both failed, they tried trade.

And the European Economic Community was born. I got the heebie-jeebies when I read that the Nazi plan for post WW2 Europe was called just that - the European Economic Community. :eek:

One of the biggest supporters of the EEC was Francois Mitterand - someone who was known to be a Nazi supporter in Vichy France.
So even the people pushing the United-Europe agenda are the same as in WW2.

This project has come closest to fruition among all the paths germany has taken.

And naturally, the Anglo-American Empire does not like it.

Case in point - George Soros' attack on the British pound, which led Britain to get out of the ERM. At that time Britain was undecided whether to throw its lot with a German-led Europe or with their blood brothers across the pond.

Pound's ejection from the European ERM (Exchange Rate Mechanism), which was a stepping stone to the adoption of the Euro, caused Britain to side with the Americans - this was the big game going on. Yanks wanted to retain a beachhead in Europe - they got one.

Ironically, this helped Germany's position on the continent to become the strongest ever. For the first time, Germany became the dominant power in Europe. Britain was (partially) out of the united-europe game, and consequently had less say in the Euro. And no longer could Britain play France and Germany against one anothr , as it did in the whole of the 19th century.

Germany's grand strategy in motion.
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Re: Attention Ramana, Shiv

Post by Pulikeshi »

shaardula wrote:Attention Ramana & Shiv and other mods.
didnot know where to post this.
...
Shaardula,

Thanks for this link. It is interesting that Balu, et. al. are touching upon what some of us had discussed on the Religion threads that existed briefly on this forum. Once again, BRF was ahead of the curve on this one as well :-)

The time spent on all the youtube videos on this topic was well worth it - thank you for sharing this...
I hope we can see some exciting work coming out of such efforts.

Pulikeshi
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Re: Attention Ramana, Shiv

Post by Keshav »

shaardula wrote:Lots of work... but this i had posted a link to earlier.
The Secular State and Religious Conflict: Liberal Neutrality and the Indian Case of Pluralism
-- S. N. Balagangadhara and Jakob De Roover
http://heathenfaqs.googlepages.com/jopp1.pdf
That was one of the best observations about the differences between Semitic and Hindu worldviews. I had actually thought about that earlier but Mr. Balagangadhara put it into better words, although his semantics were really annoying (secularists versus Gandhian anti-secularists and what not).
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by svinayak »

Pulikeshi wrote:
shaardula wrote:Attention Ramana & Shiv and other mods.
didnot know where to post this.
...
Shaardula,

Thanks for this link. It is interesting that Balu, et. al. are touching upon what some of us had discussed on the Religion threads that existed briefly on this forum. Once again, BRF was ahead of the curve on this one as well :-)

The time spent on all the youtube videos on this topic was well worth it - thank you for sharing this...
I hope we can see some exciting work coming out of such efforts.

Pulikeshi
I met Dr Balu one on one when he was visiting and had a long talk. He is breaking the stereotype and bringing the discussion on Indian religion to the right place where it should be discussed. But there are still certain things about his analysis which is not clear yet.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Pulikeshi »

Acharya wrote: I met Dr Balu one on one when he was visiting and had a long talk. He is breaking the stereotype and bringing the discussion on Indian religion to the right place where it should be discussed. But there are still certain things about his analysis which is not clear yet.
Must have been an interesting meeting. Care to explain what about his analysis is not clear yet?

I'd argue he is posing a question regarding what "framework" to use to understand the native traditions of India, if not a Religious (Western) one. However, he has yet to provide the alternative framework, one that he has demanded himself that others produce. Perhaps his assertion is that a new "framework" will evolve based on such questioning or then again he may already have an answer - on this I am not sure!

Finally, if a new "framework" is indeed found, then perhaps we can look at Religion (Western/Arab notion) through this new framework. However, without defining this new framework, all we have is a bunch of ifs and buts... Not to say others do not have an idea of what this "framework" may be... Just don't see that from Dr. Balu yet.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Keshav »

Finally, if a new "framework" is indeed found, then perhaps we can look at Religion (Western/Arab notion) through this new framework. However, without defining this new framework, all we have is a bunch of ifs and buts... Not to say others do not have an idea of what this "framework" may be... Just don't see that from Dr. Balu yet.
There will always be two frameworks - the Abrahamic and the Hindu (which includes other Pagan and Indigenous groups as he points out). The answer is to have people who can understand both in their proper contexts. Pointing out the flaws is itself a step in the right direction as this has not been done in the past 2000 years.

Is there anyway to convert PDF to plain text so parts of the article can be posted here?

I think the author hits the nail on the head, especially at certain points.
JE Menon
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by JE Menon »

>>Is there anyway to convert PDF to plain text so parts of the article can be posted here?

If the original PDF is not converted from a jpg or other image, but converted directly from text, then you can simply Save As and give "Rich Text Format" as the option and it should do the job...
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Rahul M »

Keshav wrote:
Is there anyway to convert PDF to plain text so parts of the article can be posted here?
open with kpdf, click on select tool and you should be able to select text even from pic scans.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Pulikeshi »

Keshav wrote: There will always be two frameworks - the Abrahamic and the Hindu (which includes other Pagan and Indigenous groups as he points out).
I believe Dr. Balu (as well as others on this forum) would argue that the "Hindu" framework has not been sketched out.
Well indeed the very word Hindu is alien to us. That is, your point on "pointing out the flaws" needs to accommodates this line of thinking as well.

The difference between Dr. Balu and me (among others) is that some of us think there is no need to search for a mythical "framework". That is, we believe that Dharma (outside its "Religious" context) is sufficient to have a discourse from a Non-Western view point. And if we were to do so, we come to some interesting conclusions on the Abrahamic Religions. However, one subtle point that Dr. Balu may suggest - is if Dharma is the framework, then it has to be defined and scaffolding built around it to enable the reconstruction process. However, this is my humble reading of the issue.... and on this I would agree with him.

PS: With Acrobat 8, I was able to save the file as text as JEM recommended successfully.
SwamyG
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by SwamyG »

Prof. Balagangadhara talks in Sanskrit, we also need folks who can translate that to Prakrit. India Forum carries several articles from him & Jakob.
svinayak
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by svinayak »

Pulikeshi wrote:
Must have been an interesting meeting. Care to explain what about his analysis is not clear yet?
Send me a email.
I have a recording of his talk.
svinayak
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by svinayak »

SwamyG wrote:Prof. Balagangadhara talks in Sanskrit, we also need folks who can translate that to Prakrit. India Forum carries several articles from him & Jakob.
Jakob is his student and a contributor of articles in IF
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Keshav »

Pulikeshi wrote:
Keshav wrote: There will always be two frameworks - the Abrahamic and the Hindu (which includes other Pagan and Indigenous groups as he points out).
I believe Dr. Balu (as well as others on this forum) would argue that the "Hindu" framework has not been sketched out.

Well indeed the very word Hindu is alien to us. That is, your point on "pointing out the flaws" needs to accommodates this line of thinking as well.
It seems like a semantics issue - how are we defining framework? Worldview?

Another thing that annoys me is his idea that we need to use English rather than Sanskrit. Translating philosophical concepts from Sanskrit into English always creates weird, verbose, pseudo-scientific sounding ideas that don't immediately tell you anything about the concept. And more than that it gets passed off as some Anglo discovery, like Integral Theory has been taken over by Ken Wilber when it was started by Sri Aurobindo. There's no need to reinvent the wheel - the words are right there. Seems to me it might be a lot easier to just learn a little Sanskrit instead of creating another "framework" if you truly want to understand Hindu philosophy.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

X-posted in part....

I have been re-looking at US Foreign Policy during and since WWI. In WWI, US intervened on side of Anglo-Saxons to ensure Balance of Power in Europe. Here they borrowed a leaf from the Great Britain. The fact they intervened means there was no single major power in Europe henceforth for the rest of the century. Yes GB was there but with US help.

During WWI, Japan used its Anglo-Japan alliance to intervene in China as European powers were unable to intervene. Japan was able to use its Alliance with GB to do this. So in the aftermath of WWI, US offered the Washington Treaty on naval ship tonnage to induce GB to break its Japan alliance. This ensured the viability of China as a nation state. All the Western powers intervention in China was removed when power for tariffs was restored to China.

During WWII, US pressured the GB to give up the colonies especially India for that was the basis of power for GB. I don't know how much they built up Gandhi via press and saintdom. It was mainly US journalists and media that portrayed him and gave international press to him in the English language media. GB was off course depicting him as naked fakir etc.

Then Cold War came and ended with FSU dissolution.

The purpose of the narration is that US goal is to ensure there are no single challengers to its power since WWI.

However PRC emerged with no competition and would require a challenger. Has to be indirect as there is a lot at stake.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

The present Beijing Olympics are the result of actions taken in 1920s to protect and nurture the Chinese as a nation state.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Philip »

Ramanna,here is a viewpoint often forgotten by the mainstream media and the world of the key importance of the Indian fight for independence,from the other side of the freedom struggle coin,the armed freedom fighters,Netaji and the INA and the other "mutineers" of the time.They caught the British between "a hard place and a rock",so to speak,between Gandhi and the INC and Bose and the INA.In fact,the "desertion" of Indian soldiers to the INA rocked the British govt. as much as Gandhi's non-violent campaign.They knew that they were finished in India beacuse of the two opposite methods of kicking them out.

Independence Day Special

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sunda ... al&rLink=0

Militants had a crucial role
Sunday August 10 2008 05:05 IST

N A Karim
The destiny of a nation is shaped by several factors including the quality of leadership. India emerged from colonial rule without shedding much blood and leaving little bitterness between rulers and ruled. That does not mean that the country and the people did not suffer, but it was mitigated by the non-violent and non-cooperation mode of struggle the Indian National Congress followed under the leadership of Mahatma Gandhi from the 1920s.

On a closer analysis of the national movement, one can see a confluence of the currents of non-violence and violence that helped India achieve Independence in 1947. The almost parallel Quit India movement here, and the war cry “Dilli Challo” raised by Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose abroad, together undermined British authority.

In spite of the fact that Gandhi and Bose took diametrically opposite paths to freedom their efforts were politically complementary. Gandhi thoroughly disapproved of the violent means adopted by Bose but was all praise for his courage and patriotism. In the same way, Netaji wanted to dedicate the freedom to the Mahatma, to be used in any manner he liked.

Therefore, it cannot be said that India won freedom exclusively through non-violent means. It would be a black ingratitude to the memory of Netaji and thousands of his followers who sacrificed their lives here and abroad. The statues of Gandhi in his characteristically simple dress, and Bose in his army boots and military uniform in the Parliament House compound loudly proclaim the way in which India won freedom.

The urge for freedom was strong and growing irresistibly. India would have won Independence irrespective of the means, violent or non-violent. But the flavour of freedom would have been distinctly different if it had been exclusively through violent means. Indeed, violent means would have brought more radical changes in the social structure of the country and the movement itself would probably have been more secular.

Indeed, parallel to the non-violent movement led by Gandhi, a violent struggle was underway, started by revolutionaries or extremists, whom the colonial power generally dubbed as terrorists. But unlike today’s terrorists they ensured that civilians were not hurt by their activities. They targeted their selected white victims with care, risking their own lives in the process.

The long line of revolutionaries continued to the very end of the struggle, and they followed their own path without concerning themselves with the Congress. People like Shahid Bhagat-Singh, though young, showed political maturity and had a clear vision of the future after Independence, a secular, socialist India.

There were also a number of Congressmen who were impatient with Gandhi’s methods, and they wanted fight the colonial rulers through more militant methods. Young socialists and revolutionaries formed small groups in the Congress. Gandhi and the official leadership looked upon them with disapproval and suspicion. These young leaders had a mass following outside the party and posed a distinct threat to the moderate leadership.

The election of Bose as president of the Congress against Gandhi’s nominee Pattabhi Sitaramaiah in 1938 created a crisis in the organisation. It also led to Gandhi and Bose going their own separate ways. He formed the Forward Bloc and decided to fight the enemy from abroad, making use of the opportunity offered by World War II to capture political power in India with the help of the Axis Powers, Germany and Japan. But it failed with their defeat.

Though his military venture was a complete failure, Bose spread the contagion of nationalism among Indian soldiers and persuaded them to desert the British and fight for the freedom of their country abroad under his leadership. It was an event of great significance.

This disaffection in the army weighed with Britain’s decision to quit India at the end of the war. The mutiny of Indian naval ratings in Bombay and other naval bases of the Royal Indian Navy, the discontent of Indians in the Royal Air Force (RAF) that surfaced in a threatening manner was the last straw on the camels back, as it were.

Thus, the possibility of violence would have played on British minds and pushed forward the timetable for Independence. This is where Bose’s influence can be seen. That he could mobilise Indian soldiers of the British army and form the Indian National Army (INA) in faraway Malaysia, and set up an independent Indian government abroad was a feat of revolutionary action that thrilled Indians everywhere.

Non-violence did have one very important side-effect. It was Gandhi’s way and the Indian National Congress reaped the harvest of that reflected glory long after his death. It monopolised political power in independent India for a long time only because the transfer of power was smooth, though rivers of blood flowed on either side of the border due to the insensitive manner in which Partition was carried out by Cyril Radcliff.

He did with a butcher’s cleaver a task that should have been performed with surgical care. It is also worth noting that Partition itself may not have been necessary if a more secular and revolutionary liberation movement had gained the upper hand in clinching the freedom issue.

In their greed and impatience for political power, some Congress leaders hastily agreed to Partition, an unsavoury fact that has been clearly brought out by the Transfer of Power papers since published. Independent writers in their studies and books have established that a moth-eaten Pakistan was thrust upon M A Jinnah as he was not particular about the vivisection. The demand for Pakistan was put forward earlier by others, and Jinnah, a hard-headed political realist, made use of it only as a bargaining counter. However, Partition ended in the biggest ever man-made tragedy on the Indian subcontinent.

At the beginning of World War II, Britain had refused to consider even Dominion status for India. After the war, though, the British suddenly decided to quit the country after elections brought the Labour Party to power under the leadership of Clement Attlee. So perhaps violence played a role after all, offstage as it were.

One fact that emerges from a look at the national movement is that the role of south India is proportionately small. This neglect of the south seems to be a habit. Even early Indian historians did not think there were Indians beyond the Vindhyas. This focus only on aryavarta, the heartland of India, is an old tradition, though ordinary writers feel the south has played more than its share in all spheres of human endeavour.

Regarding the south’s contribution to the freedom movement, there is a deficit, particularly in the area of agitational and militant activities. But the south contributed a number of the finest minds to the movement.

At the same time, the south got much less than its rightful share in the pie. This imbalance between south and north should be redressed by suitable political and administrative mechanisms. It is strange that it continues in various forms even after 60 years of freedom and democracy.

Now India at 60, with more than a billion people and a rapidly growing economy has to contend with a neighbourhood that is not kindly disposed to it. Bold policy decisions regarding external security are needed.

Here, the old doubts on the morality of force and violence will have to give way to pragmatism. True to its traditions India can uphold the principle of panchasheel but at the same time keep its powder always dry.

— Dr N A Karim is a former pro vice-chancellor of the University of Kerala.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Paul »

Thank you Johann, will certainly do that……

The question to ask IMVHO is not who took the lead in setting into motion these events you refer to, but should who derived the major benefits from it's outcome.

it is true that Britain derived immense benefits from the endless squabbles between the European land powers over the centuries. These squabbles did help Britain retain control over the Oceans of the world help retain Control of strategic locations like Gibralter, Cape of hope, Malacca straits and other strategic choke points.
Pax Britannica (Latin for "the British Peace", modelled after Pax Romana) was the period of relative peace in Europe and the British Empire controlling most key naval trade routes and enjoying unchallenged sea power. It refers to a period of British imperialism after the 1815 battle of Waterloo, which led to a period of overseas British expansionism. Britain dominated overseas markets and managed to influence and almost dominate Chinese markets after the Opium Wars.

The Empire's strength was guaranteed by dominance of a Europe lacking in strong nation states, and the presence of the Royal Navy on all of the world's oceans and seas. In 1905, the Royal Navy was superior in strength to the next two largest navies combined (known as the 'two power rule'). It provided services such as suppression of piracy and slavery. Britain also went beyond the seas and developed and funded a universal mail system.

This led to the spread of the English language, parliamentary democracy, technology, the British Imperial system of measures, and rules for commodity markets based on English common law.

The Pax Britannica was weakened by the breakdown of the continental order established by the Congress of Vienna and the consequent establishment of new nation-states in Italy and Germany after the Franco-Prussian War. The industrialization of Germany, the Empire of Japan, and the United States of America further contributed to the decline of British industrial supremacy following the 1870s. Pax Britannica ended at the outset of the First World War, being an end to the peace between European powers. Hallelujah!!!
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

Editorial in Telegraph, 23 Aug., 2008

Link:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080823/j ... 728586.jsp
MORE THAN SKIN DEEP
- A coffee coloured future might kill caste, the oldest colour bar
SUNANDA K. DATTA-RAY
All bunched up

Hispanics may think they are white, as Bhagat Singh Thind also did, but the American census is obviously as dismissive of their pretensions as the American supreme court was of Thind’s fantasy. Otherwise, there would have been no talk of whites being reduced to a minority by 2042, when they will account for 46 per cent of the American population, since Hispanics are expected to account for another 30 per cent. Not just Britain, as The Times, London, once lamented, but the world is headed for the saving grace of “a coffee-coloured” future.

Colour and race are moveable feasts. We know from E.M. Forster that whites “are really pinko-grey” and from Julian Huxley that race is a pseudo-scientific term. How pseudo is evident in Singapore where Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans are lumped as Indian. My efforts to enter Indo-Aryan for “Race” were brushed aside: I had to choose one of 15 categories of Indian. A Filipino friend’s self-description of Malay was also unacceptable. He was Christian and everyone knew Malays are Muslim. He pleaded that His Most Catholic Majesty King Philip II of Spain had given the Philippines its name but not fathered 91 million Filipinos. In vain. Filipino, like Indian, is a race for Singapore’s national registration department.

Colour is another conundrum. Forster’s Fielding gave great offence with his pinko-grey comment because if white referred only to skin, pallid Parsis and rosy-cheeked Kashmiris would steal a march over sunburnt sahibs. White stood for superior. Black for inferior. Both the warring Whites (Fascists, so called after White Russians) and Reds (Bolsheviks) in Evelyn Waugh’s hilarious novel, Scoop, were Negroes.

Aware of the pitfalls of a too literal interpretation, the Americans invented a legal variant of what New Orleans streetcar conductors called the floating Mason-Dixon line. The original Mason-Dixon line separated the slave states from the rest, but the one I saw was a loose board separating the black rear from the white front of the carriage. It was moved up to accommodate more passengers when the track ran through black areas, and shifted back when whites were expected to predominate. The young conductor I chatted with talked gleefully of the fun they used to have suddenly moving the board behind a solitary black passenger.

American law was equally capricious. The supreme court turned down Takao Ozawa’s citizenship application in 1922 on the grounds that though light-skinned, Japanese were not Caucasians. Possibly encouraged by that argument, Thind, who went to the United States of America in 1913 and fought with the American forces in World War I, claimed citizenship as “a descendant of the Aryans of India, belonging to the Caucasian race (and therefore) white”. But it was damned if you do and damned if you don’t. The court ruled that while the Amritsar-born Thind may have had “purity of Aryan blood” and would be “classified by certain scientific authorities as of the Caucasian or Aryan race” he was not white as used in “common speech” or in “the understanding of the common man”.

Eleven years earlier, another judge had similarly rejected Akhay Kumar Mozumdar’s application because he did not “look like” a North European Caucasian. Mozumdar, a respected religious teacher who travelled to Palestine, China and Japan before reaching the US in 1903, argued in his appeal that high-caste Hindus “consider themselves to be members of the Aryan race” and call India “Aryavarta which means land of the Aryans”. Whether or not Hitler would have been impressed, his casteist elitist plea won over the appeal judge and Mozumdar became the father of today’s bustling Indian-American community.

Alas, Thind’s failure led to Mozumdar’s citizenship being revoked. A stroke of the judicial pen changed his colour. As Associate Justice George Sutherland found in Thind’s case, Aryans, even of the highest castes in “the extreme northwestern districts of India” where one might expect genetic purity, suffer from an “intermixture of blood” with the “dark-skinned Dravidian” races. Presumably this explained the resolution passed that year by Allahabad’s municipal board, chaired by Jawaharlal Nehru, deploring the treatment of Indians in the US. Seeing themselves as white, like Mozumdar and Thind, though destined to lead non-whites against white domination, Indian politicians resented the rebuff on grounds of colour.

Sutherland’s ruling boasted a legal basis. The US is the only country in the world to observe the “one drop rule”, meaning that no one with even a trace of non-white ancestry (however small or invisible) can be considered white. Calcutta’s own Queenie of the eponymous novel got away despite whispered sniggers but the rule led to confusion over the singer, Mariah Carey, who was accused of being “another white girl trying to sing black”. Carey told Larry King that despite looking white and having been raised mainly by her white mother, she did not feel she was white because of the one drop rule. There’s a poser there for Barack Obama.

But laws are made by men, not men by laws. Even if the supreme court ruled in 1923 that Indians were not “free white men” — the Immigration Act’s qualification for naturalization — the census decided that Indians are white. South Africa’s expedient of treating the Japanese as “honorary white” had already underlined the merit of gainful flexibility. The restaurant manager at Houston airport who showed G.L. Mehta, India’s ambassador, and his secretary to a separate room because she took them for Negroes, retorted when pressure mounted that she recognized them as VIPs who could not eat with the common herd.

Four decades later, poor P.V. Narasimha Rao was the victim of American race blinkers. Fearing Khalistani, Kashmiri or Tamil Tiger rebels, his security chief asked his Boston hotel not to allow any south Asian near him. One non-white being the same as another to the management, “no African-American could carry his bags, no Asian could clean his room, no Latinos could serve him food,” shrieked the New York Times. He “had to be served by whites only, American or European”. The prime minister was accused of “fostering racial discrimination” when two African-American hotel employees, a night bellman and a porter, said they had been shifted to other duties. Though Narasimha Rao was blissfully unaware of the row, it looked as if he also nursed the self-image of Mozumdar and Thind.

Scientists claim that at least a third of American blacks have white DNA. Similarly, Britain’s white population has absorbed the black pages who were fashionable in the 18th century. Nor can Sukarno’s claim that Bandung ushered in a “century of the awakening of the coloured peoples” have pleased participants who reportedly spent their nights straightening crinkly hair and daubing themselves with lightening cream. As for Hispanics, Nehru noted that they always ranked fairly low in the international pecking order. Britain was followed, after a long gap, by the white population of the old dominions and by Anglo-Saxon Americans (“not dagoes, wops, etc.”). Then came Western Europeans, the rest of Europe, Latin South Americans, and, after another long gap, “the brown, yellow and black races of Asia and Africa, all bunched up more or less together”.

Now, we might at last be witnessing the beginnings of a reversal of the effects of the great trek out of Africa that in the course of many millennia transformed migrant humanity by adjusting pigmentation to the environment. Only this time, the process will be speeded by what the language of apartheid called miscegenation. The market for wheat-complexioned brides might slump. Bad news, too, for those whose skin whiteners are regularly advertised on TV. The café au lait future might also deal its death blow to varna, caste, the world’s oldest colour bar, on which Mozumdar and Thind relied.
sunandadr@yahoo.co.in
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

x-posted....
asprinzl wrote:1)Paul Craig Roberts is essentially a garbage producer so his articles are usually only suitable to fertilize the soil.

2) Russian military performance -though produced more or less the intended end-result due to overwhelming use of fire power- has a lot of room for improvement. They have had a lot of real combat exposure in their long operations against the Chechens and should have learned some lessons especially in non-conventional warfare and in command and control. Still, their performance has a lot of room to get better. You cannot finish up you ammo store to flush out one bunker. All told, economics of use of force and equipments while obtaining the best result needs to be paramount.

3) Georgians were the aggressors for invading SO. Ofcourse they had been provoked but that is for another day. Come to think of it, the MUslim Albanians were provoking the Serbs since at least 1988 and Serb patience bottomed out. Nick Burns (yep...that same dude who had been selling the nuke deal to India) can say whatever he wants to but there is absolutely everything similar in Kosovo and SO and Abkz.

4) Russia had been invaded by the Mongols, Tartars, Golden Hordes, Arabs, Persians, Swedish, Germans, Teutonic Knights, French, Poles and the Turks in their 1000 year history. Not a century went by without an invasion of Russia being concoted somewhere. Oh...you wanna talk about paranoia now?

5) Russians and Eukranians have more in common (linguistic-cultural-religion) than Marathis and Punjabis.

6) Everyone talks about how Russia had always been imperialistic and expansionist. Hmm...I guess everyone forgot about "Manifest Destiny" which could succeed only via the decimation of another race, the colonization of Australia and New Zealand. Thing is, in Russian enterprise, Russification of the conquered natives was more attempted than decimation while in australia, New Zealand and in the Americas the Islamic solution was imposed- decimation. So if some western comentator tries to impose the imperial brand on Russia......hypocrit.

7) Romans (east and west) and Persians -the superpowers of their time- fought to their own demise. They depleted their manpower. To augment their loses both conscripted "others" to fill their ranks. As the loses mounted, the non romans and non persians in their respective forces soon became majority. Soon, the littlest of a mouse of the desert (Arab muslim barbarians) came against both and the rest is history.

8) Everyone talks about Russia's population decline. This is misleading. Russia's population is slowly increasing but the population of ethnic Russians is declining. In another words ethnic Russians will be minority if the trend is not rectified. What no one is talking about is that this trend is also taking place in the USA. The whites will be less than 50 percent in about 2048. So to all the comentators who have been belittling Russia for their ethnic decline......watch your back....payback is a biatch.

9) So, while Byzantians battled the Seljuks and later the Ottomans, Venice was happily selling weapons to the Muslims. While the French led crusade was being waged to liberate the holyland, assorted other Europeans were fighting for the Arabs. While Tzarist Russia was fighting for its survival against the Ottomans, Napolean was selling arms to the Turks while French freelancers were training the Muslim army. While Ottomans were raiding Ukranian and Russian villages to kidnap their females for the Middle Eastern sex-slave market, western Europe was busy trading trading with the Turks. When Tzarist Russia undertook a military campaign to kick out the Turks from Ukraine, English and French fleet bombarded Sevastapol and launched the Crimean War. When Barbary pirates invade Italian villages to capture females for their sex slave markets, French forces stood by. When these same pirates invade Irish coastal villages, the English forces stood by. That is Europe for you in a nut shell. They always tried to undermine their fellow Europeans which all along benefitted Islamic forces. Watch out. Islamic forces are still waiting on the fringes.

10) Western Europe had always appeased Islam at the expense of their Orthodox brethrens.

11) Col. Ralph Peters is an idiot. That he was a former military-intelligence officer is a joke. How could an idiot like him become one?

12) Shakashvilli is a democrat? Last I heard there is no such thing as an opposition news media in Georgia and Georgia is supposed to be a democratic state. Oh wait....despite Putins dictatorial tendencies.....there are opposition media outlets in Russia. Wow...I can't believe my eyes.

13) The west needs Russia just as the Russians need the west. They are both facing civilizational threat and both are in denial of it.

14) Historically Islam has been the biggest beneficiary of European/Western folly and Islam is going to be the biggest beneficiary if this folly continues.

15) Avram is the greatest. Have a good weekend.

I will have some comments on item 13. However it needs a discussion of Western religions and political doctrines and has to be carefully worded to avoid rancor.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

X-Posted...
Igorr wrote:
asprinzl wrote: 5) Russians and Eukranians have more in common (linguistic-cultural-religion) than Marathis and Punjabis.
Avram,
add to that that Ossetians are 1500 years old fraternal people with Russians since the East Slavic tribes came to Dnepr-Don region and settled Alans (Oironistan) land and indeed two peoples were assimilated in one people, like Engles and Saxons or Francs and Galls or Volga turkish BUlgars with slavs now Bulgarians. The first known name for Russian is Rossolans - i/e Ros-Alan (Like Anglo-Saxons). Alans BTW also were the allies of Goths (Goth-Alans). All the RIver in South Russia still have still Iranian language names: Dnepr, Don, Donets, Ros', Vorskla - are not slavic origin but Iranian (Alanian). Mongols divided the remnants of Alans tribes in the north Caucasian steppe with the Russians, but Ossetians were the first who re-united with Russians when rized such a possibility. It was well before Georgian king asked unification with Russia. For Georgia defence Russia twice had wars with Iran and Turkey. But further Unlike Georgians, Ossetians NEVER asked independence.

Together with Armenians Ossetians are only indogenious Indo-European people in Caucasus region. Nor Georgian nor the North-Caucasians, Azerbaijans are Indo-Europeans. Indeed the self-name of the Ossetians is Oiron and the name of South Ossetia is Oironistan - it's typical may be the most archaic self-nomination of Indo-Europeans - 'arians' = nobless. The name Alania - is probably due to 'r'-'l' rotation in the Indo-European languages, compare 'Ellin-Ellas' (Greece) with old name 'Alan-Alania' and after alternation "Arian-Iran', 'Arman-Armenia'.

It's not by accident that Russia remains the traditional ally of both christian and Indo-European Ossetians and Armenians in Caucasus.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

Pope Benendict was right- The history of Europe is the history of Church in Europe. Without the Church's influence Europe was very backward and quite uncivilized. However that was not true of the Mediterranean Europe comprising of Greece and Rome or Italy.

Ancient Greece was a collection of city states that could not come to terms with each other and led to conquest by a Macedonian(Philip and his son Alexander) who was at the outer limits of Greek civilization. Within a hundred years after Alexander's death in Persia, Greece was conquered by Rome and we do not hear of Ancient Greece as an independent area. It is a Roman province and yet its thought was adopted by Romans and assimilated. From there on the Romans conquered Asiatic Middle East and setup an empire. They persecuted the Jews and viewed their not acknowledging the Emperor as a God to be sedition. Many Jews were killed and their revolts suppressed.

It is interesting that two of Jesus's disciples who were brothers- St Andrew and St Peter went to spread the message to Greece and to Rome respectively. It is the doctrine taught by these two brothers that leads us to the current Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches. St Paul comes later on to spread the message to Gentiles(ie is non Jews)

While the Roman Catholic Church under went splits from Protestants and others, and went through Reformation, the orthodox church did not go through any such events even during Soviet Communist rule. I do not know why and am searching for it.

Was there a difference in the message from the two brothers? This has a direct bearing on the history of Europe as we see it.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

Gerard wrote: Behind most religious conflicts is the fight for control over resources. Islam took control over the southern Arabian peninsula because it allowed one Arab group to defeat the Jewish kingdoms in the Yemen. Religion is nothing but the tool of control.
The Orthodox and Catholic supposedly split over three words in the creed "and the Son". The split was really controlling the wealth of the Church and maintaining political control over religion.
Very good insight, Gerard. You should write more often.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by sanjaykumar »

Pope Benendict was right- The history of Europe is the history of Church in Europe. Without the Church's influence Europe was very backward and quite uncivilized. However that was not true of the Mediterranean Europe comprising of Greece and Rome or Italy.


Is there any evidence for this assertion, or can be dismissed as antipagan propaganda?

Any impartial reading of the role of the Church in Europe will likely lead t opposite conclusions.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by mayurav »

I have been forming the view that Xtianity was an attempt by India to civilize Europe and to raise them up a little bit. The pagans were quite uncivilized and barbaric. Xtianity definitely civilized them a little. Unfortunately, the pagans took hold of Xtianity and converted it into a tool for their own political aims. And today they are even exporting it back to India! Also today, many pagans are giving up Xtianity. So there are the non-Xtian pagans and the Xtian pagans. Sounds like an oxymoron, but I am increasingly convinced by this.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

mayurav wrote:I have been forming the view that Xtianity was an attempt by India to civilize Europe and to raise them up a little bit. The pagans were quite uncivilized and barbaric. Xtianity definitely civilized them a little. Unfortunately, the pagans took hold of Xtianity and converted it into a tool for their own political aims. And today they are even exporting it back to India! Also today, many pagans are giving up Xtianity. So there are the non-Xtian pagans and the Xtian pagans. Sounds like an oxymoron, but I am increasingly convinced by this.

Mayurav, Any info to how you reached the conclusions/view? There is a whole thread in its second genesis at IF on this subject.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Anujan »

ramana wrote:Pope Benendict was right- The history of Europe is the history of Church in Europe. Without the Church's influence Europe was very backward and quite uncivilized. However that was not true of the Mediterranean Europe comprising of Greece and Rome or Italy.
ramana-saar,

I disagree with your statement that "Without the Church's influence Europe was very backward and quite uncivilized." This is not true.

It is true that the history of Europe is the history of Church in Europe. That is because of the enormous political influence that the Church had. Irrespective of whether the church came out on top---like the templar issue: Philip IV of France owed a lot of money to the templars and he conspired with Pope Clement V, who was a french man, didnt like the templars either, to have the pope declare them as heretics. The templars were arrested and decimated, their fortune taken and divvied up between Philip and the Church---or lost out---like the Church of England issue: Henry VIII wanted a divorce, so he could marry Anne Boleyn. The Catholic Church protested, Henry VIII split the Church of England from the Catholic Church, declared himself the supreme head of the Church of England, and gave himself the permission to divorce !! As an aside, I think that the British monarchs being the head of the Church of England, and pandering to royal escapades, makes the Anglican church quite liberal. They support homosexuality and gay couples for example.---It has created seismic changes in the politics and power equation of Europe. That was simply because of the political influence of the church. It is akin to saying "The history of the united states, is the history of the government of united states".

Keeping this in mind, it is quite debatable if the Church civilized anybody. For example, We can mark Constantine I's rule as the point where Christianity crossed over as a political force (from being the religion of a small section of society). Constantine I started ruling in 306AD and and consolidated his power in about 324AD. The roman empire at its peak was under Trajan, in about 117AD, and included spain, portugal, france, half of germany, turkey, half of Iraq, half of Iran, half of Egypt, most of northern africa, Italy, greece, Romania and Bulgaria. IE, it rivaled EU in size ! All of the celebrated philosophers, Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, were pre constantine-I. So were roads, canals, irrigation, governance.

Who exactly did the church then "civilize" ?
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

The ones you didnt mention who are now the core of the Western Europe. Its not my statemetn . Its in the famous pdf released by the Pope's office which was controversial sometime ago.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by mayurav »

ramana wrote:
mayurav wrote:I have been forming the view that Xtianity was an attempt by India to civilize Europe and to raise them up a little bit. The pagans were quite uncivilized and barbaric. Xtianity definitely civilized them a little. Unfortunately, the pagans took hold of Xtianity and converted it into a tool for their own political aims. And today they are even exporting it back to India! Also today, many pagans are giving up Xtianity. So there are the non-Xtian pagans and the Xtian pagans. Sounds like an oxymoron, but I am increasingly convinced by this.

Mayurav, Any info to how you reached the conclusions/view? There is a whole thread in its second genesis at IF on this subject.
Mostly after I learnt about Swami Yogananda's observation that Christ visited India to learn from rishis and took what he learnt and spread in ME. And recently I learnt Sri Sri Ravishankar also holds the same view. This view also allowed me to square the similarities in some narratives in our puranas and Xtianity. And to square my belief that it is the Hindu's burden to civilize the world. And also some observations of Swami Vivekananda like the ones below..
Still, it has the largest number of followers of any religion, and it has indirectly modified the teachings of all the other religions. A good deal of Buddhism entered into Asia Minor. It was a constant fight at one time whether the Buddhists would prevail or the later sects of Christians. The [Gnostics] and the other sects of early Christians were more or less Buddhistic in their tendencies, and all these got fused up in that wonderful city of Alexandria, and out of the fusion under Roman law came Christianity. Buddhism in its political and social aspect is even more interesting than its [doctrines] and dogmas; and as the first outburst of the tremendous world-conquering power of religion, it is very interesting also.
The Mother Kali is still exacting Her worship even in China and Japan: it is She whom the Christians metamorphosed into the Virgin Mary, and worship as the mother of Jesus the Christ.
But spiritual knowledge can only be given in silence like the dew that falls unseen and unheard, yet bringing into bloom masses of roses. This has been the gift of India to the world again and again. Whenever there has been a great conquering race, bringing the nations of the world together, making roads and transit possible, immediately India arose and gave her quota of spiritual power to the sum total of the progress of the world. This happened ages before Buddha was born, and remnants of it are still left in China, in Asia Minor, and in the heart of the Malayan Archipelago. This was the case when the great Greek conqueror united the four corners of the then known world; then rushed out Indian spirituality, and the boasted civilisation of the West is but the remnant of that deluge.
Afterwards, in Italy, a barbarous tribe known as the Romans conquered the civilised Etruscans, assimilated their culture and learning, and established a civilization of their own on the ruins of that of the conquered race. Gradually, the Romans carried their victorious arms in all directions; all the barbarous tribes in the southwest of Europe came under the suzerainty of Rome; only the barbarians of the forests living in the northern regions retained independence. In the efflux of time, however, the Romans became enervated by being slaves to wealth and luxury, and at that time Asia again let loose her armies of Asuras on Europe. Driven from their homes by the onslaught of these Asuras, the barbarians of Northern Europe fell upon the Roman Empire, and Rome was destroyed. Encountered by the force of this Asian invasion, a new race sprang up through the fusion of the European barbarians with the remnants of the Romans and Greeks. At that time, the Jews being conquered and driven away from their homes by the Romans, scattered themselves throughout Europe, and with them their new religion, Christianity, also spread all over Europe. All these different races and their creeds and ideas, all these different hordes of Asuras, heated by the fire of constant struggle and warfare, began to melt and fuse in Mahâmâyâ's crucible; and from that fusion the modern European race has sprung up.

Thus a barbarous, very barbarous European race came into existence, with all shades of complexion from the swarthy colour of the Hindus to the milk-white colour of the North, with black, brown, red, or white hair, black, grey, or blue eyes, resembling the fine features of face, the nose and eyes of the Hindus, or the flat faces of the Chinese. For some time they continued to fight among themselves; those of the north leading the life of pirates harassed and killed the comparatively civilised races. In the meantime, however, the two heads of the Christian Churches, the Pope (in French and Italian, Pape (pronounced as Pâp)) of Italy and the Patriarch of Constantinople, insinuating themselves, began to exercise their authority over these brutal barbarian hordes, over their kings, queens, and peoples.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Rahul M »

I urge people once again to see the movie "man from earth". it has some interesting take on this viewpoint. filter out the obvious absurdity but the rest of the nuggets on JC's origin is intriguing to say the least.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

A book review
Acharya wrote:Europe Between the Oceans: 9000 BC-AD 1000
by Barry Cunliffe (Author)



# Hardcover: 480 pages
# Publisher: Yale University Press (September 2, 2008)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 0300119232
# ISBN-13: 978-0300119237
Starred Review. Cunliffe, emeritus professor of archeology at Oxford, colorfully weaves history, geography archeology and anthropology into a mesmerizing tapestry chronicling the development of Europe. The sheer size of the European coastlines, as well as the inland rivers pouring into these seas, enabled many groups to move easily from one place to another and establish cultures that flourished commercially. Between 2800 and 1300 B.C., for example, Britain, the Nordic states, Greece and the western Mediterranean states were bound together by their maritime exchange of bronze, whose use in Britain and Ireland had spread by 1400 B.C. to Greece and the Aegean. From 800 to 500 B.C.—the three hundred years that changed the world—the Greeks, Phoenicians, Romans and Carthaginians emerged from relative obscurity into major empires whose struggles to control the seas were for the first time recorded in writing. Cunliffe points out that each oceanic culture developed unique sailing vessels for the kinds of commerce peculiar to it. Richly told, Cunliffe's tale yields a wealth of insights into the earliest days of European civilization. Illus., maps. (Sept.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Review
"This book is an achievement of astonishing scope: the first to present the whole prehistory of Europe from the origins of farming to the rise of urban society with evident authority, and then to go on to review the Roman world right through to the dawn of the Middle Ages. A pioneering work of synthesis on a continental scale, this is the first coherent overview of the origins of Europe which meets the challenge of treading the path from prehistory into the full light of history. Only an archaeologist could have written it, yet Professor Cunliffe has an impressive grasp also of the historical sources for the Roman world and its aftermath. His easy style should please the general reader, while the boldness and assurance of his masterly treatment will challenge and intrigue the specialist." - Lord Colin Renfrew, Formerly Disney Professor of Archaeology and Director of the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, University of Cambridge (Colin Renfrew )
They are working on a new non Christian European history that encompasses all of Europe to get out of the mess they are in.

I am working on a composite history of South India from the early historical period to the modern era. However it wont be abook for I am no historian but will be more like a long essay.
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Johann »

Paul,

Britain's most important advantages in the 19th century were political and technological - a political system that was more mature and stable than its neighbours, and a technological edge. Without those advantages, it would have been in no position to capitalise on the balance of power that developed in continental Europe.

By the beginning of the 20th century both the US and Germany, as business friendly economies with even larger pools of technical manpower overtook the UK's technology lead.

What repeatedly set Germany back was its repeated attempts to *unilaterally* redefine the European balance of power. That was no more acceptable to the rest of Europe than Napoleonic France's attempt to unilaterally redefine the European balance of power. The UK has never been foolhardy enough to attempt such a task. No consultative government in any country would voluntarily take on such enormous risk and expenditure in blood and treasure.

Gerard, Ramana,

At the time of the Orthodox-Catholic split the issue was not church wealth - the Rome and Constantinople did not pool wealth having functioned as separate geopolitical entities since the partition of the Roman Empire.

This was a split over legitimacy. The Teutons who had conquered the Western Roman Empire wanted to be recognised as its inheritors. Eastern Roman Emperors had no interest in doing that, and so the split. There was also a deeper difference - the Eastern Roman Empire was Roman in name only and actually had become a second Greek empire, while the West remained Latin Roman in orientation.

Surinder,

Thanks for the reply - still trying to process it.

I've seen different interpretations of the Pakjabi situation, and its something that I'd really like to understand better.

Obviously culture, identity and national mood are fluid things, that shift, so different things may have been true at different times.

And yet, it seems difficult to reconcile conceptions of the Pakjabis as people who knowingly use a myth of this idea called Pakistan to manipulate other nationalities/communities in Pakistan, and at the same time victims of the same myth, a people ashamed of their culture as insufficiently sophisticated.

S. Bajwa (where is he?) once said here that in undivided Punjab, Muslim Punjabis used to celebrate stories of heroes who defied and rebelled and fought against the Mughals.

Im curious to know more about that sort of thing. Surely if thats the case, it cant all be buried. Any Pakjabis inferiority complex towards what their Mughal Muhajirs represented must still have veins of resentment!
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by Philip »

Remember what Gandhi said when asked about his views on "western civilisation"....that it would be a "good idea"! Self interest amongst European leaders has played its part,such as Henry and his lust for Anne Boleyn,which saw him depart from the Church of Rome.So also was the envy and fear of the Templar's wealth and power by Philip of France and the Pope and the family feuds of European royalty saw the end of the monarchies in Europe and WW1.The corruption or Rome produced Martin Luther and the Protestant/Anglican Church,which these days seems to be stronger and has more influence in Africa than in England!

However,the futile desire of European leaders like Hitler and Napoleon to punish and invade Russia ,have found their 21st century supporters in the likes of Milliband and Rice.These hotheads in their zeal to punish Russia for the catastrophe and defeat of the western gameplan,thanks to their cretinous and moronic puppet Saakashvili (emulating other European misfits of history) is only accelerating the CW2.

Here is a fine first person account of the first salvoes of CW-2.
August 17, 2008

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 545980.ece
The new cold war hots up

Riding to war in Georgia alongside a bloodthirsty and vengeful gunman, Mark Franchetti saw at first hand how one small conflict in a faraway country led to a superpower confrontation.

Excerpt:
America had sleepwalked into a foreign policy disaster and its response was slow and uncertain. With Bush tarrying in Beijing watching the Olympics while Putin executed a war, Americans were reminded uncomfortably of Hurricane Katrina – another occasion when Bush dithered before eventually getting around to sending humanitarian aid.

Ralph Peters, a former military intelligence analyst, said last week at a symposium on Georgia at the neoconser-vative American Enterprise Institute: “The image for me will be the president going to a basketball game and flirting with the beach volleyball team.”

He added: “Vladimir Putin is the most effective leader in the world today. Nobody comes close. In contrast, President Bush is looking like Jimmy Carter when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. It’s tragic.”

Bush had thought he had Georgia in his pocket. Saakashvili is surrounded by US civilian and military advisers and is so close to US politicians that John McCain, the Republican nominee, claimed last week to be in daily telephone contact with him. However, he is regarded as “mercurial” – a polite way of saying that the Americans lost control of their client. “We’d been warned about Saakashvili for some time. Our advisers knew he wasn’t ready for prime time,” said Peters. “But he’s the democratically elected leader of Georgia.
ramana
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

Need to read and understand this as Western World model is based on the Greek and Roman model. Shows why city state democracy leads to Imperium!

Greek Imperialism (pdf)
William Scott Ferguson
svinayak
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Need to read and understand this as Western World model is based on the Greek and Roman model. Shows why city state democracy leads to Imperium!

Greek Imperialism (pdf)
William Scott Ferguson
Thanks - Explains a lot
ramana
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

Could you spend some time and point out which part is new info and provides better insight?
Thanks, ramana

Another google book

History of Ancient World

Revised By William Fergusson.

and Harvard Classics lectures Ancient History
ramana
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Re: Non-Western Worldview - 4

Post by ramana »

page 24 of the Greek Imperialism shows the improtance of Herodotus's history which is really a spin.
We know, on the authority of a
German military expert,18 that, had the host which followed Xerxes to Athens
numbered the 5,283,220 men attributed to it by Herodotus “without taking count of women cooks, concubines, eunuchs, beasts of burden, cattle, and Indian dogs,” its rear guard must have been still filing out of Sardis while its van was vainly storming Thermopylae. But what Herodotus reports is what the Athenians believed. They hadmet and routed the might of all Asia. They had mastered in fair fight the conquerors of all other peoples. The world was theirs: it was merely a question of taking possession.
You see the same kind of spin and hagiography in the Islamist historians and their "Force of history" myth. Shows clearly the lineage of such thinking.
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