Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jul 2008 19:17

Besides passive means like IR/IIR/UV I have read there are also working on active means like using t/r modules for detection/warning.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 10 Jul 2008 23:14

Arun_S,
Your busy bug bit me too. will mail to you soon.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Jul 2008 03:37

-Warning Force Article-

IAF orders extended-range Barak-2 for nine air defence squadrons

http://www.forceindia.net/cover3.asp

rkhanna, please do not post the entire article from Force (snippets only) - JE Menon

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 12 Jul 2008 03:46

Somehow i am not 100% convinced about sengupta's article. OF course some one needs to tell that idiot that 7 P-17a's are planned. Anyway if true 64 MR SAM's on Delhi's would be good news. I guess P-17's will have Shtil VL or Single arm in that case.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2008 04:51

ranganathan wrote:... I guess P-17's will have Shtil VL or Single arm in that case.

Most likely it's the Shtil with single arm launchers. These P-17s are almost fitted out and so all their equipments were selected a few years ago when Shtil VL and Barak NG were not available.

But going forward, it looks to be that all IN ships (locally built) will be equipped with VL Barak-1, Barak-NG combo. So this includes P-15A and P-17A classes. It is possible the mid-life upgrades of P-15 Delhi class, Krivak-III, P-17, Krivak-IIIA, and P-16A classes will follow in this direction. I'm sure we'll see 150km ranged Barak-NG-LR in the next decade as well.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 12 Jul 2008 04:58

The Krivak-IIIA are most likely to get VL-Shtil-1. I see no reason why the P-17's cannot get the same?

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2008 05:03

Well ... P-17s are already fitted out (or almost completed) ... over the last few years. They are projected to come online in the next 2 years. To re-do them at this late point to fit VL would mean lengthy delays to a program already behind schedule. Also, you have to remember that parts are ordered well in advance from various manufacturers to get a complex project like the P-17 with thousands of parts build per schedule. You can't at the last minute change your order without bearing additional costs and delays in the parts manufacture who will have to produce to the new specification. If they are already mated with the hall, then the associated cost and delays are even higher to re-do it.

On the other hand, Krivak-IIIA are just being launched and have a few years before they complete their fitting; so from the start they can plan for and get the VL version, which was a fairly recent development.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 12 Jul 2008 07:40

But going forward, it looks to be that all IN ships (locally built) will be equipped with VL Barak-1, Barak-NG combo. So this includes P-15A and P-17A classes. It is possible the mid-life upgrades of P-15 Delhi class, Krivak-III, P-17, Krivak-IIIA, and P-16A classes will follow in this direction. I'm sure we'll see 150km ranged Barak-NG-LR in the next decade as well.

It may be Maitri+Barak-NG Since the Barak-I deal is under investigation and on hold. This may continue for many years. Also the Barak-LR was for the Air Force. Possibly AAD will be on IN ships.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 12 Jul 2008 07:59

Maitri won't be ready and Barak-1 will be the primary SR-SAM for IN for atleast a decade.

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 12 Jul 2008 12:26

Do we know if Maitri is going to use any stuff we developed for Trishul or is going to be a version of the Mica/Aster ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2008 20:44

Nag is back into action, but would like to hear its all about the mmw seeker issues being fixed. I didn't read that.. they were talking about only infra seeker issues. What was the real issue?

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 13 Jul 2008 11:57

Chor maha super chor gupta has been so stupid and such a liar about Barak-2 that it is not even funny. No way barak is going to have a dual sensor or bladders or milk or anything like it.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Jul 2008 12:19

Mihir.D wrote:Do we know if Maitri is going to use any stuff we developed for Trishul or is going to be a version of the Mica/Aster ?

It will most likely be based on the MBDA's Mica VL missile system experience and technologies. But I can be sure there will be some level of input from the DRDO's experience in R&D of the Trishul SAM as well.

I hope they use the Astra as the VL missile. It would greatly benefit the program.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 15 Jul 2008 14:22

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nag_ ... 225233.cms

Hope Nag doesnt meet Arjuns Fate

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 15 Jul 2008 17:04

Guys does anyone know the status of Nirbhay. Last heard it was suppsoed to be test launched in 2009

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstyp ... wsid=48826

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 15 Jul 2008 18:23

Talk by Dr. Saraswat in IISc on 18th July Friday, on future missile directions in India.
Anybody interested?

Kartman · Post by **Kartman** » 15 Jul 2008 18:38

narayana wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Nag_ ... 225233.cms

Hope Nag doesnt meet Arjuns Fate

The above article from ToI(let) says that some 443 missiles and 13 Namicas have been ordered

Having placed an order for 443 Nag missiles and 13 Namicas (Nag missile tracked carriers) for induction over three years, the Army is keeping its fingers firmly crossed.

I don't really recall any such order, though I might be mistaken... but, then, the article is by uber-DDM Rajat Pandit

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2008 19:48

K Mehta wrote:Talk by Dr. Saraswat in IISc on 18th July Friday, on future missile directions in India.
Anybody interested?

Try to gather some of the Benguluru crowd and if attending please take notes and post here. Thanks, ramana

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 15 Jul 2008 20:03

K Mehta wrote:Talk by Dr. Saraswat in IISc on 18th July Friday, on future missile directions in India.
Anybody interested?

Anybody interested ? You cant keep us waiting by these tactics, hmm

bala · Post by **bala** » 16 Jul 2008 01:05

Air Force places orders for Akash missile production

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for the production of Akash, a surface-to-air missile, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The orders have been placed in the wake of a 10-day successful drill in December 2007 that involved the launch of several Akash missiles by its user, the IAF, from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur-on-sea, Orissa.

Prahlada, Chief Controller, R&D, DRDO, said the IAF placed “initial orders for some squadrons” of the Akash missile and that “the orders will continue.”

The orders would come in lots. Mr. Prahlada said he was happy over the development on two counts. First, this might pave the way for the Army to place orders for Akash. Second, during field and user trials, the performance of the Akash missile was comparable to the best in the surface-to-air missile class in the world. The missile demonstrated its consistency, accuracy and easy operability.

In user trials last December, “a real C4I (that is, command, control, communication, computer and intelligence) was integrated in the Akash and demonstrated in field conditions,” Mr. Prahlada said. It was a totally automated operation too.

“The Akash is an anti-aircraft missile with a launch weight of 720 kg, a length of 5.8 metres and a diameter of 35 cm. It can reach aircraft flying 25 km away. It uses solid propellants as fuel. It can handle multiple targets by means of a digitally coded command and guidance system.”

The DRDO would conduct trials of Nag, an anti-tank missile, in August 2008.
Astra launch

“Things are moving” for the launch of India’s Astra, an air-to-air missile developed by the DRDO, Mr. Prahlada said. Astra had already been launched three times. The launches were, however, in the surface-to-air mode. The coming launch for the fourth time would also be in the surface-to-air mode.

“The Astra has a smokeless propulsion system. It is 3.5 metres long and weighs 154 kg. It has a launch speed of 0.4 Mach to 2 Mach. One Mach equals the speed of sound. When the air-to-air version is developed, the Astra can be launched from Su 30 MKI (Mark India), Mirage 2000, MiG-29 and the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas,” he said.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 16 Jul 2008 01:08

ramana wrote:
K Mehta wrote:Talk by Dr. Saraswat in IISc on 18th July Friday, on future missile directions in India.
Anybody interested?
Try to gather some of the Benguluru crowd and if attending please take notes and post here. Thanks, ramana

Camcorders not allowed? If allowed, record the whole stuff. Our multi-media guru, Shiv saar wil do the rest (that's a humble request to both Meta and Shiv)

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Jul 2008 04:24

bala wrote:...

...
Astra launch

“Things are moving” for the launch of India’s Astra, an air-to-air missile developed by the DRDO, Mr. Prahlada said. Astra had already been launched three times. The launches were, however, in the surface-to-air mode. The coming launch for the fourth time would also be in the surface-to-air mode.

“The Astra has a smokeless propulsion system. It is 3.5 metres long and weighs 154 kg. It has a launch speed of 0.4 Mach to 2 Mach. One Mach equals the speed of sound. When the air-to-air version is developed, the Astra can be launched from Su 30 MKI (Mark India), Mirage 2000, MiG-29 and the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas,” he said.

Ok since they are doing a bunch of surface-to-air mode launches, IMO they should also think about the Astra being the missile for Maitri SAM system. Let's see ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 08:37

all AAMs are initially tested from the ground.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 16 Jul 2008 10:35

Agreed but DRDO must ensure that the LLQRM is based on Astra. A short range (15-20 km) sam based on Astra and a Akash-2 (50 km) range is necessary in the future. The Barak-2 is a LRSAM with 120-150 Km range and will gel nicely with these two.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 16 Jul 2008 13:19

sunilUpa wrote:
ramana wrote: Try to gather some of the Benguluru crowd and if attending please take notes and post here. Thanks, ramana
Camcorders not allowed? If allowed, record the whole stuff. Our multi-media guru, Shiv saar wil do the rest (that's a humble request to both Meta and Shiv)

Will try. I think the archives cell is taking videos for their records. If shiv sir has a camcorder it would be great. I will try to get one from my friends and get a permission for recording. Anybody interested, will help in get them to attend, if needed. the lecture is free to attend, but there will be lot of public so one has to get in early.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 16 Jul 2008 13:24

What happened to Longer range Arrow-2 to be developed by india and Israel?it had been rumored that our AAd/PAD had immense inputs from that program

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 16 Jul 2008 14:19

India to test missile to hit aircraft beyond visual range

India will conduct within a month the first full test flight of an indigenously built air-to-air missile that targets aircraft beyond visual range, a senior official said Wednesday. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will test Astra. If successful, the test will make India the fifth country to possess this technology.

Only the US, France, Russia and Israel have advanced missiles that can hit aircraft 90-120 km away.

“The test flight will take place either at the end of July or the beginning of August,” a DRDO official told IANS on condition of anonymity.

During the test, Astra will be fired from a Sukhoi fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF). The missile has been tested on ground to prove its avionics, guidance and other sub-systems including propulsion.

“Astra is a futuristic missile and can intercept a target even at a speed of 1.2 to 1.5 Mach,” the official said. The speed of sound is 1 Mach.

Astra can be carried by the Mirage 2000, MiG-29 or Sukhoi-30MKI aircraft used by the IAF as well as the indigenously built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

In terms of technology, Astra is more complex than the nuclear-capable Agni series of strategic ballistic missiles, the official said.

Following the closure of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) after a quarter of a century in December 2007, DRDO scientists are now focusing primarily on Astra and four other missile systems.

The other four are the 700-km range K-15 submarine-launched ballistic missile, the 290-km BrahMos supersonic and hypersonic cruise missile, the 3,500-km range Agni-III ballistic missile and the long-range surface-to-air missile system being developed jointly with Israel.

Currently, the Sukhoi-30 MKIs and Mirage 2000s of the IAF are armed with expensive beyond visual range (BVR) missiles of French and Russian origin like the Matra Super 530D and AA-12 Adder. India is also importing the Israeli Python and Derby air-to-air missiles.

It was in March 2004 that the government approved the Rs.10 billion project to develop Astra, with a 80 km ‘head-on range’, after DRDO test-fired three prototypes from the Chandipur-on-sea test range in May 2003.

However, the DRDO will not be able to meet the 2009 deadline for delivery of the Astra missile to the IAF. It will only be possible by 2012.

Once operational, scientists believe the single-stage solid-fuel propelled Astra will be cheaper and better than contemporary BVR missiles, capable of engaging and destroying highly-manoeuverable supersonic aerial targets.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 72165.html

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 16 Jul 2008 20:45

Patriot punch for Indian air defence

Acting in response to a request for proposal (RFP) floated by the Indian ministry of defence for medium range surface-to-air missiles, US defence contractor Raytheon made a sales pitch for the Patriot air defence system at the Farnborough international air show on Tuesday.

When did we issue RFP for Medium range SAM? what is Barak II (one for IAF, on hold now) then?

Very confusing.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 16 Jul 2008 21:18

Patriot was offered by the US as a missile interceptor.Now they are offering it as a SAM.
QED, our AAD can itself be used as a MR SAM albeit it may not be available immediately. Correct me if Im wrong.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 16 Jul 2008 22:10

prashanth wrote:Patriot was offered by the US as a missile interceptor.Now they are offering it as a SAM.
QED, our AAD can itself be used as a MR SAM albeit it may not be available immediately. Correct me if Im wrong.

Yes I understand that. Question is when did we float the RFP for MR-SAM? Barak II for IAF was the joint venture announced last year with a total outlay of Rs. 10000 crore. Now that is in limbo. Is this RFP is to replace the program or is it a stand alone affair?

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Jul 2008 01:03

sanjaychoudhry wrote:
India to test missile to hit aircraft beyond visual range
...

“Astra is a futuristic missile and can intercept a target even at a speed of 1.2 to 1.5 Mach,” the official said. The speed of sound is 1 Mach.

...
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 72165.html

It may be just enough to intercept the next generation of supercruising combat aircrafts. F-22 can supercruise at a sustaining speeds of Mach 1.5.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jul 2008 01:41

ramana wrote:
K Mehta wrote:Talk by Dr. Saraswat in IISc on 18th July Friday, on future missile directions in India.
Anybody interested?
Try to gather some of the Benguluru crowd and if attending please take notes and post here. Thanks, ramana

podcast?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 17 Jul 2008 12:58

sorry for my mistake
The lecture is on friday, tomorrow at 11:30 AM, Satish Dhawan auditorium. I will talkto my friends in aero dept, as this talk is being organized by aerospace dept.

Nmistry · Post by **Nmistry** » 18 Jul 2008 13:21

Anti missiles systems: shoot to kill

Article on PAD and AAD in Aviation Week magazine: page 40 to 44

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti0708/

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 18 Jul 2008 14:54

Back from the lecture. It was verrrryy nice. At the end he showed a 6 min video of AAD interception, too good. Will post the details soon. I have taken a few notes.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 18 Jul 2008 21:40

Future missile technologies: Indian perspective
Dr. V K Saraswat
Part-I
He first started by describing the past of the missile program talking about the first Anti tank missile built in the 60s. He said that in the 60s-70s the Indian missile program had lot of constraints like economy, (underdeveloped R&D) in private industry, private-public partnership, interaction with academic institutions and lack of infrastructure. In spite of all these constraints his predecessors had done well and by the time he joined in the 80s, they had developed a sound base on which he built further.

From the past he then moved to the present describing the current programs, I will put the points I jotted down. Arun _S these are official figures.
Strategic missiles
Prithvi 1 - 150 Km
Prithvi 2 - 250 Km
Dhanush - 350 Km

Agni-1 700 Km 1000Kg warhead
Agni-2 2000 Km (Note 1000 Kg warhead assumed)
Agni-3 3000 Km (Note 1000 Kg warhead assumed)
RLG-INS has been used in these missiles.

Tactical missiles
Nag missile – Anti-tank 4 km Top attack with smokeless dual pulse motor, Fire and forget as well as LOAL versions.
Helina- 7Km Helicopter carried version, 8 Nag missiles per ALH, under research.
Trishul missile – SR quick reaction SAM with anti ship, anti-cruise anti-missile roles
12 Km range
Akash missile – 25 Km Medium Range SAM, Has gone into production. Rajendra phased array radar can target 10-12 targets while track 16-20 targets?? (I may have missed/misinterpreted something here)
Brahmos missile- has cold launch technique to enable vertical or angled launch from all kinds of platforms. Hi-lo profile <300Km range Lo-Lo profile ~ 150Km range.
Astra missile Mk1- Beyond visual range missile for LCA, Mirage-2000, Mig-29, Su-30 etc. Range 80 Kms
Astra missile Mk2- Range 100 Kms

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 18 Jul 2008 21:43

Forgot to mention, there was no recording of this lecture I think classification issues, but Dr.Kakodkar's lecture was recorded, will try to get a copy of it. I hope I am not putting things I am not supposed to. Will post more tomorrow.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 18 Jul 2008 22:23

K Mehta wrote:Forgot to mention, there was no recording of this lecture I think classification issues, but Dr.Kakodkar's lecture was recorded, will try to get a copy of it. I hope I am not putting things I am not supposed to. Will post more tomorrow.

Mehta-saar,
Thanks a lot ! Did he say anything about future projects like Nirbhay/BM based on AAD ? Was there a Question/Answer session in the end ? Any interesting questions ?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 18 Jul 2008 23:20

K Mehta: Good stuff. Thanks boss.

K Mehta wrote:Future missile technologies: Indian perspective
Dr. V K Saraswat
Part-I
He first started by describing the past of the missile program talking about the first Anti tank missile built in the 60s. He said that in the 60s-70s the Indian missile program had lot of constraints like economy, (underdeveloped R&D) in private industry, private-public partnership, interaction with academic institutions and lack of infrastructure. In spite of all these constraints his predecessors had done well and by the time he joined in the 80s, they had developed a sound base on which he built further.

From the past he then moved to the present describing the current programs, I will put the points I jotted down. Arun _S these are official figures.
Strategic missiles
Prithvi 1 - 150 Km
Prithvi 2 - 250 Km
Dhanush - 350 Km

Agni-1 700 Km 1000Kg warhead
Agni-2 2000 Km (Note 1000 Kg warhead assumed)
Agni-3 3000 Km (Note 1000 Kg warhead assumed)
RLG-INS has been used in these missiles.

Any sense when RLG went on line on A1 & A2? Communicate to me offline if need be.

Trishul missile – SR quick reaction SAM with anti ship, anti-cruise anti-missile roles 12 Km range

Did he say anything on if Trishul program is dead or is alive?

Astra missile Mk1- Beyond visual range missile for LCA, Mirage-2000, Mig-29, Su-30 etc. Range 80 Kms
Astra missile Mk2- Range 100 Kms

Anything on burn time of the main motor and the sustainer motor? Or mass of fuel carried. or seekers?

Keep it up DRDO.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jul 2008 10:49

Arun_S wrote:K Mehta: Good stuff. Thanks boss.
Any sense when RLG went on line on A1 & A2? Communicate to me offline if need be.
Did he say anything on if Trishul program is dead or is alive?
Anything on burn time of the main motor and the sustainer motor? Or mass of fuel carried. or seekers?
Keep it up DRDO.

He didnt go into when issues, but said It is in use. Trishul is a tech demo program. Not much of technical details in that sense, he may have said something about the seeker, but I am agyani in those nick of woods and might have missed it.

lakshmic wrote:Mehta-saar,
Thanks a lot ! Did he say anything about future projects like Nirbhay/BM based on AAD ? Was there a Question/Answer session in the end ? Any interesting questions ?

Lakshmic ji please wait, more is yet to come. There was no question answer session because he was already short of time, infact he skipped the whole future warhead part of his presentation and finished the last parts in a hurrry. The most interesting thing to me was the AAD video, lets hope we can get it on DRDO website, that will be a huge weapon for us internet warriors, will describe the video too.
guys no need to thank me. Infact I put up the lecture notice so that more gyaani ppl who can understand the lecture and its tech details more can attend. Has anybody else attended?