Blasts in Ahmedabad

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 02:19

Rahul M wrote:exactly ! but even there the case has not taken to its rightful conclusion.

My point exactly. None of these things get taken to their rightful conclusion, thus nullifying the efforts. You're only supporting my argument.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 02:25

narayanan wrote:R_kumar:
It is not true that most of the GUILTY ones arrested are "out on the street next day". It is true that often, when the police are sloppy in their investigation, the arrested person is released on bail, and even that is after severe torture etc. on the presumption of guilt. This is why the Indian police lack credibility among the Indian public.

The law that allows people to be released on bail is the same one that protects YOU from indefinite confinement and torture by lazy or malicious "authorities". If you find that unacceptable, emigration clearances may be available to any of the many nations where "law enforcement" does not have to observe such "leftist" practices as releasing people on bail. Saudi Arabia comes to mind. Or People's Republic of China.

O! thank you BRF software! For the Freedom to Dis-As-socialize! Going to add to the list right now.

So then you should openly argue that recieving daily bomb blasts is the price to be paid for not being tossed into jail arbitrarily.

That's your opinion of course, and I don't share it.

I feel that people should make more efforts to live squeaky clean lives, to steer clear of run-ins with the law.

But if you feel that our security forces are more of a threat to the nation than the terrorists they are fighting -- and that's certainly the implication of your argument when you claim that POTA/TADA are a worse threat than terrorist bombings -- then you should openly declare India a terrorist state and dissociate yourself from it.

That's the credible thing to do. After all, you don't protest fur while wearing it. You don't protest against animal slaughter while being a meat-eater. You don't protest that police tactics are more of a threat than terrorism while enjoying the protection that the police give. That's not a credible posture to take.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Jul 2008 02:42

mayurav wrote:
James Bond wrote: Yes, there is a way out - "Stop feeling guilty for arresting a muslim"

We are secular. Arresting a muslim or non-muslim is same.
So, how do you propose to put that sense into Muslims?

Those who are sensible, they don't need advice.

Those who are sensible but feels misguided by reading TOIlet paper(which blames terrorism on Islam), GOI can issue notice to TOI for being communal and ban it, so sensibles are ensured that India is their home and we love them too.

Those who are non-sensible, well one can't put sense into their heads. Let them meet heaven through INSAS if they are found having hands in blasts, in any manner.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Jul 2008 02:44

Sanjay M wrote:So then you should openly argue that recieving daily bomb blasts is the price to be paid for not being tossed into jail arbitrarily.
That's your opinion of course, and I don't share it.

Why dont we believe that only AQK was to blame for N-proliferation ? Why dont we believe that Baitullah was to blame for BB's death ? After all great justice has been done both cases !

A transparent and credible judicial process is for two reasons (a) To give a chance for innocents (b) To prove that the accused is guilty beyond any doubt. So not only is fair justice done, it is also known to everyone justice has been done in a fair and transparent manner.

Stop a bit and list differences between "vengence" and "justice".

Sanjay M wrote:But if you feel that our security forces are more of a threat to the nation than the terrorists they are fighting -- and that's certainly the implication of your argument when you claim that POTA/TADA are a worse threat than terrorist bombings -- then you should openly declare India a terrorist state and dissociate yourself from it.

Security forces are just part of the equation. Do they have a free hand ? Do you honestly believe that laws that provide for arbitrary detention will be abused by security forces first ? or will it be abused by their political masters first ? Before POTA, why not a law for non interference of political class in recruitment, appointment and transfer of police ? Which approach do you think will bring violence down double quick ?

Sanjay M wrote:I feel that people should make more efforts to live squeaky clean lives, to steer clear of run-ins with the law.

I think some of your posts in the Nuke thread reeks of sedition. There is this new law that I have just enacted to keep traitors in check. Goons in Khakhi are coming over to your house right now ....

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jul 2008 02:45

Jihad kills more under UPA
Pioneer News Service | New Delhi
The Congress has often sought to deflect attention from the UPA's track record in fighting terrorism by claiming that the situation was worse when NDA was in power. This misperception is strengthened by the high profile though foiled terror attack on Parliament House in 2001.

A comparative analysis of Islamist terrorist strikes during the six years (1998-2004) when the BJP-led NDA was in power and LK Advani was Home Minister, and those during the four years and two months the Congress-led UPA has been in power, knocks the bottom out of Congress's claim, most recently repeated by the Prime Minister in Parliament last Tuesday.

At least 598 people have died and many more injured in jihadi attacks outside J&K since the UPA came to power in the summer of 2004. These attacks include serial bombings, like those in Ahmedabad on Saturday, and raids by suicide squads, like the bid to blow up the Ram mandir at Ayodhya. The toll in such attacks during the NDA years was 237.
The loss of lives is much higher if separatist violence in J&K and in the North-East, and Maoist violence in other States are factored in. The overall tally for UPA years would be at least 5,272. Nearly a 1000 lives have been lost in Maoist violence, which has also resulted in the death of over 600 securitymen in the past four years.

There were 12 major jihadi attacks when NDA was in power from early-1998 to mid-2004. Of these, three resulted in heavy casualties: The massacre at Chhamba on August 8, 1998 (35 killed); the fidayeen attack on Akshardham temple on September 24, 2002 (32 killed); and, the bombings in Mumbai near Gateway of India and Zaveri Bazaar on August 25, 2003 (52 killed).

There have been many more jihadi attacks of greater severity between June 2004 and July 2008. The bombings in Delhi on October 29, 2005, resulted in 62 deaths; the blasts at Sankatmochan Mandir and Varanasi Railway Station on March 7, 2006, left 21 people dead; the commuter train bombings in Mumbai on July 11, 2006, claimed 209 lives; the Malegaon bombings of September 8, 2006, killed 40 people; the bombing of the Delhi-Atari special train killed 68 passengers; the bombings in Hyderabad on August 25, 2007, killed 44 people. The May 13, 2008 bombings in Jaipur killed 82 people.

In the past 24 hours, more than 30 people have been killed in the Bangalore and Ahmedabad bombings. Clearly, NDA's record shines in comparison to that of the UPA Government. But misperception shrouds the truth.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 27 Jul 2008 02:48

Cross posted from the Poll thread:

There are several angles to this. Most of them have been outlined above
I have this to add,
I feel a ground is being prepared in view of the impending general elections. After the nuclear deal is through, only BJP can really take India's relations with the developed world to a next level strategically. Only the BJP has demonstrated the cajons to do what needs to be done (I will tend to discount vision here. The congress is not short of it, they basically don't want to upset the applecart at any given moment).
Riots and law and order problems now will only lead to polarization of the voters, at a time when the congress is looking very inept and corrupt.
It really is high time that India follows up on what its NSA says, and targets the grey matter of these terrorists. Let it be known that we will act if there is intel available - not proof. If you've done something bad, and intel points towards you, you're going down. Terrorize the terrorists in their own backyard, safe havens - deal firmly but justly with the local sympathizers. People have to know that in this case justice was carried out with alacrity and is displayed to have been correct.
Similarly, the seething anger that the public has over the period of time needs a catharsis, and the government should provide that by following up on what the NSA said.

It is heartbreaking to see our fellow citizens lie in those pools of blood, and yet now is the time when the maximum pragmatism and maturity must prevail.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 27 Jul 2008 02:48

Sanjay M wrote:
Katare wrote:cross posting -

Rman,

Don't you think that would be like playing the game exactly the way Paki's want us to play? Why should we escalate and solve all of their problems? They are near self-destruction; I would not throw them a lifeline by escalating, which would allow them to divert all their troubles our way?

I think India should use this opportunity to fix its internal security problems like having a central crime-fighting agency and providing meaningful legislative independence to police forces. The issues and solutions with our internal security are well identified but politicians have chosen easy way out by enacting/retrieving useless and draconian laws like TADA/POTA. We must use this opportunity to implement the police reforms mandated by SC (which state govts are vehemently opposing) and bring out our own version of FBI.
Katare, as I was stating in a similar debate on Rediff -- don't you recognize that the terrorists want us to be damned if we do, and damned if we don't?
People like you are forever harping that we should not emotionally react in a way that could polarize society along communal lines, because this is what the terrorists want.
Let's stop being ignorant and pretending that the terrorists have a one-track plan. You're only worrying about communal polarization, and not seeing the other side of the trap -- which is that we should become so meek and soft-spoken that we would absorb bombings until we are bombed to pieces.
They want us to be damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

Given that fact, I'd rather take my chances in being outspoken and angry. Benjamin Franklin said that moderation should be pursued in all things, including in moderation itself. This means that if someone's broken into your home and is assaulting your wife and kids, then you don't sit there moderately and preach the virtues of moderation to them.

So I wish you'd stop preaching an excess of passivity and recognize that no war can be won by purely doting on the efforts of bureaucrats. Society has to get involved at the grassroots level. You just want to press this or that administrative button, and leave it to some admistrative police process to work things out. Well, as you can see, that's not working. But this fact then has you again calling for more tweaks and calibrations. Sorry, but these smalltime measures aren't going to do it.

What's needed is the invocation of nationalist sentiment and its values -- which call for making sacrifices to preserve the nation's security and survival. And if that means bringing back POTA/TADA, and having to live your life squeaky clean to avoid attracting its scrutiny, then so be it.
If you don't want that, then recognize that you may be forced to live with bomb blast after bomb blast. Life doesn't always give easy choices.

You need to read and understand the posts before replying to them. Your reply is an answer to the question that is in your own mind and has nothing to do with what I posted.

I have said nothing about polarizing society and I have no fear of upsetting or hurting anyone's feeling if its serves truth. I talked about reaction to pakistan and throwing them a lifeline by escalating situation at borders in my post in response to Rman's posts and he replied sensibly. My post was about two nations and pakistan's politics of violence and our immediate response to it. You made weird connections to polarization of society, communal harmony and secularism, which has nothing to do with my post.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jul 2008 02:50

Sincere apologies for all "bigotery" remarks... didn't mean to vent my emotions or to suggest a perticular action...

Appreciate "Admins" suggestions/remarks...

My post was to present the possible scenarios... good to know people dont read the entire post... also nice to know that people can use equally offensive words to demonstrate their sense of dharma...

Will keep quite for some time so i too can think with a cool mind...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jul 2008 02:51

Was that Rangudu saying few days ago that Terror strikes was close now since they are waiting.
After the Nuke deal and the vote there was a sense of uncertainty.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 03:08

lakshmic wrote: Why dont we believe that only AQK was to blame for N-proliferation ? Why dont we believe that Baitullah was to blame for BB's death ? After all great justice has been done both cases !

A transparent and credible judicial process is for two reasons (a) To give a chance for innocents (b) To prove that the accused is guilty beyond any doubt. So not only is fair justice done, it is also known to everyone justice has been done in a fair and transparent manner.

Stop a bit and list differences between "vengence" and "justice".

Sorry, but we're in a war, here. You want every nicety to be extended when the enemy isn't extending every nicety. I'm saying that some niceties will have to be dispensed with, and this doesn't mean we'll automatically become Pakistan. (Btw, with your example of unaccountable AQ Khan, we may be the worse off for it, but you don't see Pak worse off by one bit. The Americans haven't been able to access him, nor has Pak faced anything more than a wrist-slap. You don't see either Pak or the Chinese or the NKoreans ruing their joint proliferation partnership. They're laughing all the way to the bank.)

Security forces are just part of the equation. Do they have a free hand ? Do you honestly believe that laws that provide for arbitrary detention will be abused by security forces first ? or will it be abused by their political masters first ? Before POTA, why not a law for non interference of political class in recruitment, appointment and transfer of police ? Which approach do you think will bring violence down double quick ?

I am in favour of both, and certainly there is nothing in POTA/TADA that precludes legislation to block political interference. The issues that were always challenged by the critics of TADA/POTA were the surveillance and detention powers. I don't see what's wrong having such powers, when you're facing a terrorist threat. Let's note that it was BJP/JanSangh which faced the most persecution from Congress misuse of state police power, and not vice versa, but yet it's the BJP supporting TADA/POTA, while the chronic Congress power-abusers are the ones opposing TADA/POTA not for any aversion of abusing power, but rather to appease their vote banks.

I think some of your posts in the Nuke thread reeks of sedition. There is this new law that I have just enacted to keep traitors in check. Goons in Khakhi are coming over to your house right now ....

I don't see that anti-terrorist laws will result in state goonsquads. If anything, their prevention of terror attacks will prevent buildup of tensions that come from such attacks. Otherwise, then there will be incidents that trigger riots, because people will take the law into their own hands when they see the state is failing to fulfill its responsibilities -- and then people like you will be quick to shriek "Nazis! Fascists! These riots were pre-planned! They wanted the train to be burned, so they could have an excuse to riot! Modi/Advani/insert-name-here is Hitler! He even used sing praises of Hitler as a child! It was all pre-planned from childhood!"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 03:15

Looking at the MO of these two blasts it could be a different group than the usual ones doing this. And they could be under different control too.

What is the gripe/takleef on Madurai Meenakshi Temple to invite such threats?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 03:15

Katare wrote:You need to read and understand the posts before replying to them. Your reply is an answer to the question that is in your own mind and has nothing to do with what I posted.

I have said nothing about polarizing society and I have no fear of upsetting or hurting anyone's feeling if its serves truth. I talked about reaction to pakistan and throwing them a lifeline by escalating situation at borders in my post in response to Rman's posts and he replied sensibly. My post was about two nations and pakistan's politics of violence and our immediate response to it. You made weird connections to polarization of society, communal harmony and secularism, which has nothing to do with my post.

With Pakistan practicing the politics of violence, we cannot be practicing the politics of appeasement, procrastination and ostrich-like aversion. The threat is there and so we then have to confront it, as it won't go away on its own, just by our hiding our heads and hoping the direness will pass. You know that if we don't react to this bombing, then there will simply be another bombing to follow it. And then another, and another, and another.

So to not react is to simply invite more bombings.

There is no amount of ducking that we can do, that will somehow avert more bombings. No matter how much we duck, there are going to be more bombings. So if we don't want more bombings, we'd better do something other than duck.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 27 Jul 2008 03:21

Now you are talking on the same page. What action do you propose we should take against Pakistan?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jul 2008 03:32

Katare wrote:Now you are talking on the same page. What action do you propose we should take against Pakistan?

Couldnt control myself

Declare war on Pakistan... Dont send any trooops.. just fire off all the Brahmos' we have in stock on Pak's major military/strategic installations within range... the consequences will be

- Ofcourse we will have equal number (if not more) of attacks on our installations.. first priority is to save lives and equipment (move them out of those areas before the action)... India can rebuild its infra.. pak doesnt have that luxary...
- World community will come down on us and ask us to stop the war...and we will... the war will be over in a day or two
- PA will be further weakend... islamization of pakistan can be accelerated...
- If pakistan responds in kind by invoking its sleeper cells atleast we will have the enemy in the open...

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 27 Jul 2008 03:35

RamaY wrote:
Katare wrote:Now you are talking on the same page. What action do you propose we should take against Pakistan?

Couldnt control myself

Declare war on Pakistan... Dont send any trooops.. just fire off all the Brahmos' we have in stock on Pak's major military/strategic installations within range... the consequences will be

- Ofcourse we will have equal number (if not more) of attacks on our installations.. first priority is to save lives and equipment (move them out of those areas before the action)... India can rebuild its infra.. pak doesnt have that luxary...
- World community will come down on us and ask us to stop the war...and we will... the war will be over in a day or two
- PA will be further weakend... islamization of pakistan can be accelerated...
- If pakistan responds in kind by invoking its sleeper cells atleast we will have the enemy in the open...

Approved!!!!

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 03:36

katare wrote:Now you are talking on the same page. What action do you propose we should take against Pakistan?

We should put pressure on them in Baluchistan, from our Afghan consulates in Kandahar.

But I am particularly inclined to put pressure on ISI, as compared to the Pak state as a whole. Right now, it is largely the ISI who are in the position of isolation, having antagonized a number of groups -- the PPP-led Pak civilian govt, the Americans, the Afghans, domestic ethnic groups like Baloch and Sindhis, and of course us Indians.

In this uniquely isolated position, the ISI can be ganged up on, and de-fanged.
There are elements of Pak society who are antagonized by ISI's antics, and they can be rallied, with the acquiescence of the PPP govt, to have parts of the ISI purged and brought into the limelight for accountability.

LakshmiC was going on about the need for accountability in India by using Pak as an example. I would respond that Pak is in much more need of accountability and transparency than India is.
So India, USA, PPP and others should get together to weaken the Army's grip on power, and to bring ISI under a greater exposure to scrutiny and accountability.

The Afghan War which created the jihadi menace also was responsible for the rise of the ISI menace. Even as the new War on Terror is now combatting that jihadi menace, it needs to also address the other raw wound, which is the ISI.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 27 Jul 2008 03:37

ramana wrote:What is the gripe/takleef on Madurai Meenakshi Temple to invite such threats?

Communal riots are more difficult to provoke in Tamil Nadu when targets are Brahmin symbols, simply because Brahmins do not have numbers. Attacks in the southern part of the state carry more promise from the jihadi angle because there is a higher number of non-Brahmin Hindu groups there who also have the means to retaliate. The most prominent Hindu shrine in the southern part of TN is the Meenakshi Temple. QED.

Acharya,

My thoughts prior to the nuclear deal were that TSP will want a near nuclear war situation again so that the India-TSP nuclear hyphen is maintained. If you think of the one big thing that TSP loses with India getting the nuclear deal - it is the hyphen. From TSPA angle, what better way to bring back the hyphen than a war like situation?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 27 Jul 2008 03:47

Sanjay M wrote:
katare wrote:Now you are talking on the same page. What action do you propose we should take against Pakistan?
We should put pressure on them in Baluchistan, from our Afghan consulates in Kandahar.

But I am particularly inclined to put pressure on ISI, as compared to the Pak state as a whole. Right now, it is largely the ISI who are in the position of isolation, having antagonized a number of groups -- the PPP-led Pak civilian govt, the Americans, the Afghans, domestic ethnic groups like Baloch and Sindhis, and of course us Indians.

In this uniquely isolated position, the ISI can be ganged up on, and de-fanged.
There are elements of Pak society who are antagonized by ISI's antics, and they can be rallied, with the acquiescence of the PPP govt, to have parts of the ISI purged and brought into the limelight for accountability.

LakshmiC was going on about the need for accountability in India by using Pak as an example. I would respond that Pak is in much more need of accountability and transparency than India is.
So India, USA, PPP and others should get together to weaken the Army's grip on power, and to bring ISI under a greater exposure to scrutiny and accountability.

The Afghan War which created the jihadi menace also was responsible for the rise of the ISI menace. Even as the new War on Terror is now combatting that jihadi menace, it needs to also address the other raw wound, which is the ISI.

Covert escalation I agree with! Overt escalation only if the PM/Mulayam/Sonia has more guts than Atal/Advani/GF combo. Current (uneasy) peace at borders provides us certain benefits if we decide to end that our actions have to be sufficiently tough so as to provide benefits which are higher than the current situation.

Regardless of this debate what is needed is a comprehensive overhaul of internal security setup. State govts enjoy all the policing powers and some of these powers needs to be shifted to federal govt to deal with the national level threats.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 Jul 2008 03:50

One reason for the uptick is to induce a response either by riots or by some greater tension at the border before the NSG and other atomic agencies vote. The greater the tension in India the more likely the nuke war fears can be used to scare. The question is how much will TSP escalate before India responds. India should at least respond covertly just to keep some element of fear in TSP's mind to limit escalation.

I do feel that there is a strong element of frustration in the US with TSP. The 1st line handlers are too much in cahoots to dump them; but at the back there are lot more rumblings for things to change. The Afghan war generation in the US establishment is now retiring and the 9/11 generation is gradually moving in.

If things have to go overt, use of stand off weapons to target high value TSP targets, the ISI HQs being one such. Do it quickly and with an element of surprise; with the cold-start doctrine ready to move the forces forward as soon as the attack happens. Then wait and watch. If the terror moves up, the burka is withdrawn, and increase the intensity. If no terror response, just wait till the next one happens and hit hard again. The attack in Kabul was a direct assault on sovereign Indian territory so there is no need for even a fig leaf to explain any overt retaliation.

RamaY wrote:
Katare wrote:Now you are talking on the same page. What action do you propose we should take against Pakistan?

Couldnt control myself

Declare war on Pakistan... Dont send any trooops.. just fire off all the Brahmos' we have in stock on Pak's major military/strategic installations within range... the consequences will be

- Ofcourse we will have equal number (if not more) of attacks on our installations.. first priority is to save lives and equipment (move them out of those areas before the action)... India can rebuild its infra.. pak doesnt have that luxary...
- World community will come down on us and ask us to stop the war...and we will... the war will be over in a day or two
- PA will be further weakend... islamization of pakistan can be accelerated...
- If pakistan responds in kind by invoking its sleeper cells atleast we will have the enemy in the open...

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 04:00

I am debating on Rediff against some guy going by the name Lalu Prasad Yadav.

Lalu bhai is telling us that these bombings were actually an unfortunate accident that is being mischaracterized by the communal Brahmin/BJP/RSS forces to destroy Indian harmony. Lalu tells us that these were not 17 bomb blasts, but actually there were 17 kerosene lamps that were all accidentally spilled by rowdy VHP pilgrims all at the same time across Ahmedabad, resulting in 17 separate blazes. Lalu warns us not to be taken in by the clever bomb-blast propaganda of VHP/RSS/BJP, because it is all a lie. Remember, this is all due to careless pilgrims spilling kerosene lamps simultaneously in 17 different locations.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 27 Jul 2008 04:03

Katare wrote:
Sanjay M wrote: We should put pressure on them in Baluchistan, from our Afghan consulates in Kandahar.

But I am particularly inclined to put pressure on ISI, as compared to the Pak state as a whole. Right now, it is largely the ISI who are in the position of isolation, having antagonized a number of groups -- the PPP-led Pak civilian govt, the Americans, the Afghans, domestic ethnic groups like Baloch and Sindhis, and of course us Indians.

In this uniquely isolated position, the ISI can be ganged up on, and de-fanged.
There are elements of Pak society who are antagonized by ISI's antics, and they can be rallied, with the acquiescence of the PPP govt, to have parts of the ISI purged and brought into the limelight for accountability.

LakshmiC was going on about the need for accountability in India by using Pak as an example. I would respond that Pak is in much more need of accountability and transparency than India is.
So India, USA, PPP and others should get together to weaken the Army's grip on power, and to bring ISI under a greater exposure to scrutiny and accountability.

The Afghan War which created the jihadi menace also was responsible for the rise of the ISI menace. Even as the new War on Terror is now combatting that jihadi menace, it needs to also address the other raw wound, which is the ISI.
Covert escalation I agree with! Overt escalation only if the PM/Mulayam/Sonia has more guts than Atal/Advani/GF combo. Current (uneasy) peace at borders provides us certain benefits if we decide to end that our actions have to be sufficiently tough so as to provide benefits which are higher than the current situation.

Regardless of this debate what is needed is a comprehensive overhaul of internal security setup. State govts enjoy all the policing powers and some of these powers needs to be shifted to federal govt to deal with the national level threats.

I feel that targeting the TSP is a totally wrong solution. The right action would be like the US has done. Show ZERO tollarace towards anyone preaching, advocating or supporting Islamic radicalism.
Anyone who puts islam in above India, should be charged with treason and stripped of their nationality and put indefinately in jail (until someone is willing to take them). I say Islam, because the problem originates from Islamic circles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 04:05

What if it has nothing to do with outside forces but internal dynamics? the MO shows the desire to wound and not cause mayhem. The intensity and the locations are also signatures.

As the response in the ISI thread was that it looks like TSP woudlnt be so foolish as to do something when US troops are poised on western borders.

Rishi^2 What makes you think its islamics doing this? Go read Paddy's book.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Jul 2008 04:13

Why would local forces just choose to randomly strike now?

To me, the timing seems too conspicuously correlated with the recently passed vote of confidence.

Are we saying that local Indian Muslim groups are venting their feelings on the 123 Deal by detonating blasts?

To me, the fact that the chose places like 1)Bangalore and 2)Gujarat tells me they are looking to 1)attack our technology centres and 2)trigger some wider communal conflagration.

To me, that indicates the hand of Pak.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 27 Jul 2008 04:22

I just saw this post on the Bangalore thread from Narayanan. I will give my answer, it is China playing the end game with us. This kind of thinking shows a profound strategic mind at work, something neither the ISI nor the Commies have. China gave the orders. This is part of a grand strategy. They think in historical terms and they are determined India never share the world stage with them.

I have said this before and I hope we wake up and begin to think big. Otherwise we will be lost.

China don’t have to get their hands dirty through this modus operandi and most of their work has been outsourced for decades to Pakistan and its various agents and proxies and progenies. But I will answer your question 1 – China fits all this and is clever enough to disguise it as a proxy action. And they do have reason to hate the BJP more because for all its faults it did have a non inflationary dynamic anti-dole economic policy which energized the economy, although right now they want India down, they see we are coming up economically and strategically playing our cards well.

In response we gotta think strategically. I also agree with the measures Narayanan proposed in terms of unifying our country, again, Muslims of India are beginning to be genuinely integrated, these actions are to stop and reverse this trend, it is a deadly danger and one orchestrated by China.

1) Who hates progress in India viciously enough to kill on a large scale?
2) Who hates the BJP and the notion of the Hindu majority "waking up"?
3) Who is right now feeling extremely dissed?
4) Who gains the most by the BJP govt in Karnataka looking bad?
In answering the above, also answer this one independently:
5) Whose govt just survived because of support from the BJP MPs of Bengalooru?

Now I will ask the other one:
6) Who gained more from the riots in Gujarat?
************
We are all conditioned to answer "PAKISTAN!" for all those (except #5), and of course with good reason. But for the same reason, others who want to destabilize Indian economy, links with the west, and the central and state governments, can use our prejudice to "good" effect. Look at the types of "reasoning" we see:
....The Communists are the ones who really gained from the Gujarat riots. ....Same here. While there is no doubt that Pakis have been placing bombs all around the world, these bombs were just way low-budget, very effective and untraceable means of destroying Bangalore's success, hitting at the west-linked businesses, hitting at the Congress and of course the BJP. The Commies are the ones with the motive and the sheet hatred to do this right now, having just got themselves kicked out of government. To what passes for their brains, it was the Bangalore MPs who upset all their calculations and made the government survive with them left out.

Bangalore is the essence of everything the Commies hate.

OK, so I have no proof, but I submit that my case is much better than the wild accusations against SIMI or BDs or whatever. Hence we need to hold those "definitive" declarations.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 27 Jul 2008 04:28

Same reasoning as applicable to B'looru. Security in A'bad as applied to "other community" is pretty tough, yet blasts occurred. BRF janta need to stop the habit of jumping to conclusions and start thinking.

So why did these guys succeed in breaking through the security? Possibly because they are not IM or PM, but CPIM?

Who benefits from blasts in A'bad? Who benefits from anti-Muslim riots in BJP-ruled states?

I think the urgency for these blasts is that IAEA Board meeting is tomorrow, and NSG will be looking at waiver for India. A riot / war situation would be soooooo good to "save" the opponents of the nuke deal, having got their musharrafs kicked in Parliament. Pakistan is NOT who benefits from this, because the blasts actually will generate sympathy for India's security predicament, and generate strong support for India's need for a new clear detergent. But if riots are forced to occur... it's a different ballgame.

Absolutely agree. Again, China as the puppeteer is the master's voice.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 27 Jul 2008 04:30

Rishi
You are suggesting stripping their citizenship? How about hunting them down, shooting them on site and then burning them such that they can't get 72 houris either. Point I am making is time is for stick solution not status quo solution. Pakis the scumbag that they are scared our of their mind now since Nuclear deal will be certainly done. They are not getting anything even though in their fecal mind they think they are a nuclear power. Recent blasts are their message to Indian State no matter what you get we can always strike at you and create panic in your population, India and the world will not achieve anything by sligthing and ignoring the Land of Fecal Pure. As long as we have Coalition Politics this nation will always be haunted by these blasts. These kind of acts will keep happening until next year when elections are done in US and India. If a new coalition gov't comes in India these blasts will happen at their regular frequency. There is no hope of a single party coming to power--there are way too many LOSERS in this nation who are "Slave of their Ego's" Advani, Yechuri, Karat are the top of the list. We are living in strange times where National Interests and future is held hostage to the bruised ego's of Senile Advani, Traitor Communists etc.

jmaxwell · Post by **jmaxwell** » 27 Jul 2008 04:37

So far we have accused:
- TSP/ISI
- SIMI/BD
- CPI(M)
- Chinese
- Naxalites
- Indian Muslims

For a second there I thought I was reading a thread on PDF

May the souls of the victims attain moksha

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 27 Jul 2008 04:37

All the terror blasts since 2005 onwards share the following characteristics:
- They have mostly been low intensity blasts
- The ingredient of choice is either ammonium nitrate or in some cases gelatin sticks
- The controlled chemicals like RDX have rarely been used
- The fertilizer bomb is cheap and affords anonymity. One of the primary reasons for lack of progress in investigation is that it is very difficult to trace these chemicals back fast enough, which gives enough lead for the perpetrators to melt away.

Now some diagnosis:
- Jaipur, Ahmedabad, Mecca masjid blasts took place in the old city. By doing this the terrorists are exploiting ghettoization and anonymity these areas offer. However as RayC posted, the average abdul's indifference will ultimately cost him, as these areas will continue to loose trust from the rest of the city.
- If you leave the gutter in front of your house open, flies already have a ready made target. The civic administration's indifference to these areas which leads to lack of trust between the system and the people must end. Enough lines of communications must be maintained and sustained.
- The police must already be aware of the above reasons, but it seems their sources are little rusty.
- After last Hyd. blasts the police were able to trace ammonium nitrate to a Nagpur factory. Do all manufacturers add signatures to their products? Manufacturing and iIndustrial rules must have already been updated, but how good is their enforcement?
- This modus operandi gives TSP a totally deniable weapon which it can deploy at a place and time of its choosing. The objective is to keep the water boiling but not let it boil over.
- There has been no solid response to this weapon by Indian security establishment. If they have, Ram bharose has not yet witnessed its evidence on the ground.
- The repeated blasts at or near the Muslim ghettos will cause security sensitive industries like bank branches etc. to either degrade their services or completely shut them down. That would be a wrong response.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jul 2008 04:46

it all can only start with one simple master strategy.

drop NFU, and adore MAD.

just do it!. don't talk.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 27 Jul 2008 04:57

Between 1984 and 1990 things like this happened without the involvement of Pakistan. Refer to events of Meerut-UP,Bhagalpur-Bihar in the late 80s, Hyderabad in early 80s and of Assam and Tripura in 80s and early 90s.

Active involvement of Pakistan started from Bombay blasts onwards. Most of the blasts, communal events are remote controlled by Pakistan from 90s onwards.

If you take this to software architecture anology it is all like Service Oriented Architecture (SOA). The services were always available from elements of IMs to some Extranets. The invoking programs are different at different times. The invoking programs are: (1) Indian National Congress (INC) during most of 70s and 80s and (2) Pakistan from 90s onwards.

During the times of 80s, almost all the events used to be started with low intensity(one or two stabbings and burning a temple or so) and are in a very controlled manner. Police will come into picture and they will just provide all the security to the perpetrators and IMs in the area. Things subside and the Chief Minister of the state is replaced by another faction of INC. If it is an opposition ruled state then dismissal happens invariably. Give some exgratia and end of the story.

When Pakistan started invoking the services ( the services are now hosted with highend processors based servers) , the scales changed. Now the casualties have increased. During the initial events, the security apparatus has no clue regarding how to control these. Before the sleeping GOI got to the grips, the local police changed their tactics of siding with the IMs and started to be on the otherside. Collateral damage was the tactic used to quell the events.

GOI got to grips and passed several tools to help police. Various variants of TADA and POTA were passed. The security forces used these tools to block the services before invokation. Pakistan raised the scales. Security forces responded. At the political level, INC became little honest and thought it cannot control anymore after Bombay blasts and did the right thing. However, they lost the IM base to parties like Laloo, Mulayam etc.

From the last few events (especially B'lore and A'bad), it looks like someone is trying to revive the structure of 80s in a 21st century framework. It is not certain yet as some more analysis needs to come out. The suspicion is because of INC removing POTA, Shivraj Patil types at the helm and SIMI(Mulayam) becoming latest coalition partner.

Now the security forces are in real problematic situation as they may not know immediately if the services are invoked by local types or Pakistan types.

If Mayawati is smart, she should create a preemptive security blanket in the sensitive areas of UP.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Jul 2008 05:00

Sanjay M wrote: So India, USA, PPP and others should get together to weaken the Army's grip on power, and to bring ISI under a greater exposure to scrutiny and accountability.

USA still controls ISI. Only one section of it which befriends militants and is anti-US. Apart from that small section, a large part of ISI and CIA work together on India. Whatever maybe public posture, internally ISI will always remain puppet of western agencies.

Its naive to think US will help India destroy its strategic fort called pakistan built over decades to keep check on powers in sub-continent.

This islamic fanatics within ISI turning anti-US is only a small aberration and CIA knows how to control it. Recent increased activity of blasts within India is result of increased american aid to pakistan. Now, ISI has more money, so more power.

You can say, blasts in India has blessings of US.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 05:09

Muppala these two series of blasts look like the handiwork of inside elements trying to revive old political milieu of the 80s. That's what has been bothering me. The low grade explosives, the dispersed targets and the immediate bandwaggoning of the usual ex-sarkari experts. And is TSP is at the root why and how?And as some have suggested Commies again how and why?

I was thinking its SP thru their SIMI friends. Whats their reactions? Anyway law and order are in State govt hands and they do have the CID branch which is pretty good. Lets see what comes up.

Again folks please don't use smileys in the blasts threads.

Thanks, ramana

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 27 Jul 2008 05:15

Most civilizations preserve and assimilate histroy to react to current current events and also to shape their future. India on the other disputes its past traditions, histroy not learning and contniue to argue analyze but never to act or react even!

Always a deer caught in head lights where inaction is most popular action a national motto!

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 27 Jul 2008 05:25

IMO, the far lefties have been running India a tad too long. Its time the country is given to the conservative right of India for a decade to balance things out.

Come on folks.. how long is this Gandhian stuff going to last?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jul 2008 05:31

So Manny now Gandhi is Leftist? Which conservative right is that you want to take center stage?

And I note you are ignoring my request not to post smileys in the blast threads.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Jul 2008 05:32

John Snow wrote:Most civilizations preserve and assimilate histroy to react to current current events and also to shape their future. India on the other disputes its past traditions, histroy not learning and contniue to argue analyze but never to act or react even!

Always a deer caught in head lights where inaction is most popular action a national motto!

Have you ever seen a terrorist attack on any Indian elite or industrialist?

That will never happen. Because, ISI knows, if they attack real-decision makers(elites), then they will make GoI move.

I wish they take off some big name, ambani or TATA with a fidayeen. I bet, GoI WILL move.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 27 Jul 2008 05:35

ramana wrote:So Manny now Gandhi is Leftist? Which conservative right is that you want to take center stage?

And I note you are ignoring my request not to post smileys in the blast threads.

In today's context I think he is leftist. Very much so.

Lets see..what would have happened if he had gotten what he wanted. A "Unified India". India would have had 200 Pak muslims, 150 Mil BDesh Mulsims + 200 Mlil Indian Muslims. Thats around 450 Million Muslims. In 20 years, India would be an Islamic State. Thank God, that did not happen.

Today, we would be doing what Pakistan is doing. Fighting against Taliban culture in India Instead of us fighting the lefty culture. But then, come to think of it..whats the difference.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Jul 2008 05:36

vishwakarmaa wrote:
John Snow wrote:Most civilizations preserve and assimilate histroy to react to current current events and also to shape their future. India on the other disputes its past traditions, histroy not learning and contniue to argue analyze but never to act or react even!

Always a deer caught in head lights where inaction is most popular action a national motto!
Have you ever seen a terrorist attack on any Indian elite or industrialist?

That will never happen. Because, ISI knows, if they attack real-decision makers(elites), then they will make GoI move.

I wish they take off some big name, ambani or TATA with a fidayeen. I bet, GoI WILL move.

dude... the world is round.. i got my post removed when i said something like that w.r.t naxals... if you wannna live a while here dont say anything that gives a hint to the others... even if it is out of frustration...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Jul 2008 05:37

vishwakarmaa wrote:
John Snow wrote:Most civilizations preserve and assimilate histroy to react to current current events and also to shape their future. India on the other disputes its past traditions, histroy not learning and contniue to argue analyze but never to act or react even!

Always a deer caught in head lights where inaction is most popular action a national motto!
Have you ever seen a terrorist attack on any Indian elite or industrialist?

That will never happen. Because, ISI knows, if they attack real-decision makers(elites), then they will make GoI move.

I wish they take off some big name, ambani or TATA with a fidayeen. I bet, GoI WILL move.

you are saying GoI is not elite enough to bear the parliament attack a while back. we tend to forget fast.. deer attaining nirvana just by thought of going to be hit, and those seconds is all that he has to cheer up.

what about some smart chip implants, and deer is always capable of jumping say over the terrorist vehicle.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 27 Jul 2008 05:39

ramana

I don't see much evidence to support your hypothesis or suspicion. These blasts appear to be the work of a jihadi network that has graduated from their mentor's school and who are now trying their own thing.

The 1980s analogy I think about is vis-a-vis the Khalistani terrorists and their relationship with TSP. The Khalistanis went into their own after a few key terrorist leaders learned all the tricks of the trade from the ISI. AFter that, TSP did not necessarily order specific hits but did liase with key leaders when there was a specific need for either party. At the same time, the understanding was that the Khalistanis would escalate and de-escalate based on the mood of the TSP establishment.

Similarly, TSP has used the post 2003 space to train and graduate key SIMI leaders and bomb makers. Now those guys have the ability to wreak chaos on their own. However, they (SIMI et. al) know which side their bread is buttered and will oblige TSP when the signs from Pindi call for an escalation. The increased violence in J&K, border firings, increased press coverage of LeT/JeM leaders etc. all point to a conscious decision by TSPA/ISI to escalate things on their eastern front. My bet is that they did not like the Indian response to the Kabul embassy attack and want to take it to the next level.

To the extent that one can think along the ISI/jihadi lines, one can sense that the next escalation will be either a mass casualty attack conducted directly by TSPian LeT assets or it will be a on a national symbol like the IIT or Corporate HQ or even a nuclear power plant.