Indian Response to Terrorism

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 Nov 2008 15:22

X-Posting from 'Terror Attacks in Mumbai' Thread:

This is war, and Dar-ul-Islam has to pay and pay with something that hurts them most - a loss of land.

Every time there is a terrorist attack in India, some of Pakistani Land or Bangladeshi Land should be gobbled up by India, after some cleaning, of course. That is the only thing which would shake these terrorists.

o If you kill them, it doesn't bother them. They simply say, there are others to take their place in Jihad.
o If you retaliate against other Muslims, as some sort of collective punishment, then they get their heart's desire as more are willing to join their ranks.
o If you attack, some Muslim religious place, then it becomes an attack on whole of Islam, and produces no dividends, only bad publicity, and they can rebuild it again.

There are in fact only three responses, that truly hurts Islam and Muslims.

1. As per the Indian-Pakistan Separation, all Indian Muslims are shunted to join their brothers in Pakistan. India is cleared of Dar-ul Islam influence and danger. The British Plan for the separation of India between Hindus and Muslims remains a potent legal weapon in Indian Armory, and can be used as a weapon of last resort.

2. All Indian Muslims are encouraged or coerced to adopt another form of Islam, which radically separates them from the Arabic roots of Islam, which acknowledges its basis in Indic culture and history. The Indian Muslims de-facto leave the Ummah, even as they remain in India.

3. Muslim Lands are taken away from Muslims around India.

I am in favor of 2) and 3).

If you want Al-Qaida and their ilk and brethren-in-arms to pay a price, then that price has to be extracted by pushing back their global agenda of Islam. Killing a few terrorists here and there, in the grand plan of things, causes only minuscule damage. One should not mix up tactics with strategy.

The one thing one does need is to make this strategy rhetoric-friendly. India and the civilized world lacks the rhetoric of justice and human rights for adopting this course. Those who are good with rhetoric, e.g. shiv may consider channelizing some of their talent in that direction.

SandeepA · Post by **SandeepA** » 27 Nov 2008 15:43

I dont understand. We all seem to be suggesting that the GoI does this or that to stop terrorists. Each suggestion smarter than the previous. But if the GoI had the will to do something about it then we will not be seeing these activities at all in the first place isnt?
The problem is the GoI, it is not just a bunch of corrupt politicians or unpatriotic people anymore. They set themselves up there in a position and with the responsibility to do something about all this and have done zilch. This is treachery. The media is another arm of the same treachery that tries its best to keep the public misinformed and mis-focussed on non-issues. The best solution is to expose both for the lie.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Nov 2008 15:57

SandeepA wrote: The problem is the GoI, it is not just a bunch of corrupt politicians or unpatriotic people anymore. They set themselves up there in a position and with the responsibility to do something about all this and have done zilch. This is treachery. ....The best solution is to expose both for the lie.

Spot on. The political parties are only interested in the next election and the money that can be made between elections. They must be punished.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Nov 2008 17:20

negi wrote:Whenever people talk about change and reform , Afzal guru's incident comes to my mind , when a honorable man like Kalam himself exhibited weakness at the last juncture what can one expect from the scumbags in the LS/RS ?
...

could you explain what exactly you mean by this ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Nov 2008 17:25

If the allegations about the Malegaon suspects are true,will the current dispensation NOW realise how fed up the people of India are with the buffoonery that looks after our security,sorry endangers our security and why some cannot stomach it anymore and want to avenge their countrymen and women.I do not know why Sonia Gandhi wants to visit Bombay tomorrow.She will only divert attention and her army of security staff will be an anachronism in the current situation.

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 27 Nov 2008 17:45

It is ironic that the chief of ATS and other reputed Police officers were
killed. The ATS was set on a witch hunt of 'Hindu Terrorists' by the
political masters. I hope this tragedy makes people sit up and stop
playing politics with the safety and National security of the country.
I may be wrong, but i feel this is the tipping point in the chain of
events that will force India to respond strongly.

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 27 Nov 2008 18:03

Just saw this from Smt. Radha Rajan. Just highlighting what i said in my previous post

from: Radha Rajan
date: Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 11:01 PM
subject: NDTV's Srinivasan Jain

Shri Srinivasan Jain told us this morning in the course of his news coverage that he met with the ATS chief karkare yesterday in the afternoon and that Karkare told him that 90% of the ATs had been preoccupied with the Malegaon blasts. If this is true then several people in Maharshtra and Delhi responsible for the security of the nation and its people have to be strung up from trees on the streets of Mumbai and Delhi.

Now read the last line of my latest plainspeak. It is tragic that I wrote this yesterday late in the evening and did'nt know about the tragedy in Mumbai until this morning. (http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... indu.html)

If more and more Hindus are going to feel this way, the political discourse on jiahd will change in sheer fear of people's wrath.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 27 Nov 2008 19:24

This is a disaster of epic proportion wraught upon the country by the failure of Manmohan-Sonia-Rahul triumvirate. Sadly, this failure will continue. An after a few days, things will be back to business as usual. Now lessons would be learned. Complacency which seem embeded in the self will re-surface in a few days. Old habits die hard. Business as usual until another similar incident jolts momentarily the serene complacency again. If this triumvirate goes away, don't expect their replacements would be any better. I say these words with a heavy and sad heart.

How long will the leaders (on both side of the political divide) of India in the federal capital and in the state capitals continue to dupe the people while the country continue to bleed from terror attacks to terror attacks?

Since this triumvirate came to power, they have not contributed anything for the betterment of the country. How many terror attacks have occured under their watch? Yet, they are still in power and keep company among crooks, criminals, murderers and thiefs as esteemed MPs. They bicker, lie, cheat and argue amongs themselves without much thought about the country.

If any lessons that could have been learned why no lessons were learned after the Divali attack? Banglore IIT attack? Assorted other attacks? Each time the police, the security services and the political leaders are either caught sleeping or drunk.

Sadly, the quality of the leadership really reflects the country in general. You select the leaders you deserve. If you keep doing the same thing you will keep getting the same result.

Avram

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Nov 2008 19:25

close the channels first!. all ports of neighborhood entry. can we prevent commerce?, but we can legalized it better. Only valid people who can remain valid, be traveling. This means we need to tag people who come on visits. It could amount to racial acts too., cause only people of certain origin will be attacked. our police and neta setup will utilize these setups for their ultra hand political gains.

we can only ask all visitors to wear RFID tags always.. If they don't carry either their wearable tags or produce an Indian ID, in the time allocated to fetch these IDs [time taken to access the location of where they are kept usually by people], then they can be booked. this will also make sure, everyone has some sort of ID.

what do you do who can't be identified ? build a guantanamo bay area for them. Just arrest them until proven their identity, and finally deportation. politicians missuses these laws can't bring down the laws for their political benefits. Its permanent.

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 27 Nov 2008 19:38

It's time India got its act together
Lieutenant General Ashok Joshi (retired)

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/27- ... gether.htm

November 27, 2008
News reports and visuals of the terrorist assault on the commercial capital of India on November 26, 2008, make it abundantly clear that detailed reconnaissance and even a few dry runs with local guides must have preceded this coordinated attack.

The fact that one of the attacking teams ambushed a vehicle of the Anti-Terrorist Squad itself shows the level of training and preparedness of the attackers. The attackers seem to have taken hostages according to their plan, and not at random. The singling out of the citizens of the United States and Israel by the terrorists points in the direction of Al Qaeda [Images].

Perhaps, the terrorists might have settled upon the day and date of assault with prior and definite knowledge of some event or the other in Mumbai. The sea-borne approach of the attackers possibly points to the transportation of the main teams in ships up to release points, and plans for their subsequent extraction.

The 'pathfinders' might have been inserted earlier. This attack has all the signs of careful planning, preparation, and execution comparable to what had happened in the US on 9/11. This does not appear to be the handiwork of someone on a shoestring budget. This appears to be a 'battle' in a carefully crafted campaign, or several campaigns.

The strategic objective of the converging campaign(s) is the gradual weakening, and ultimate fractionalisation of India. Pakistan could then emerge as the largest State in the subcontinent. Such thoughts by Pakistani thinkers are on record. The scale and the audacity of the attack is so shocking that it could not have been conceived, planned or executed by the home-grown variety without active motivation, encouragement, and assistance from determined centre(s) of power from outside of India.

The 'foreign hand' is no longer a mere 'shadow'.

The sight of the ongoing US-India strategic partnership has unsettled Pakistan as few other developments since Kargil [Images] have. The US had relied in the past on Pakistan to facilitate its access to the Chinese leadership, as also to guard the US interests in the region by thwarting Russian intentions. It seems that only the People's Republic of China had thought things out and foreseen the advantage of helping Pakistan with its atomic bomb way back in the 1990s, if not earlier.

China drove a wedge in the subcontinent by enabling Pakistan with the bomb. Pakistan could now maintain its active hostility to India in spite of India's vast superiority. At the other end of the spectrum, it relied upon Pakistan to draw upon its fundamentalist elements to threaten India with the spectre of civil war by deliberate acts of provocation. This strategic plan has been in place for many years and Pakistan is unfolding it.

The idea that Pakistan will cooperate with India in 'fighting terror' is misplaced. The newly elected government in Pakistan has neither the muscle nor the skill to restrain the fundamentalist elements in Pakistan, assuming that it is sincere in its commitment to good relations with India. Pakistan has been for so long under military rule that neither the Pakistan bureaucracy nor the political class have any first hand experience of exercising sovereign authority in its entirety. Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence can take on the role of 'non State actor' to achieve the Pakistani national objectives, as indeed it has been doing in Afghanistan.

The Pakistan government under Musharraf has been playing both ends against the middle since 9/11. On the one hand, it gave assurances to the US that Pakistan was its partner in its war on terror, and minimally cooperated with the US when cornered; on the other hand, Pakistan manipulated the Taliban [Images] and other fundamentalists to continue with their activities, particularly against India, in the name of its support to the 'freedom fighters' in Kashmir.

The first strand of its policy ensured the US support to the military government, and kept open the tap of US resources. The second strand, kept up the level of hostility to India at the selected benchmark but for which Pakistan fears that it would 'dissolve' in the subcontinent.

Any diversion of attention from Pakistan-generated fundamentalism and its concomitant terror in all parts of India will hurt the country. There are other radical groups in India; they have always been there -- Communists in Telangana, Naxals, the militant Akali movement, and so on. The Malegaon blast probe brings intimation of another radical group, this time of Hindus. Some commentators have hinted that the radicalism of the majority community -- a euphemism for Hindus, oh, how we love euphemisms -- is by far the most dangerous.

As an academic conclusion, this is hard to challenge, but as a practical proposition based on real life experience it lacks substance. What has come out in the open from the Malegaon blast probe is worrisome for the army, but it is a strong institution and will be able to take care of itself.

Quantification and careful analysis of all the past terrorist attacks is far more important than some arcane debate about majority or minority radicalism. The 'statistical truth' culled from the past attacks may be a better indicator of the probability of attacks in the future than mental constructs about mere possibilities. This would help more in focusing attention and directing effort in a productive manner. Political correctness may have to take a second place.

Well-deserved praise of the majority of Indians for their stoic tolerance is not out of place, but by itself, it is not sufficient. The fact that life goes on as normal in much abused Delhi [Images], Bangalore, Ahmedabad [Images], or Mumbai ought not to comfort decision makers. Even perplexed and benumbed individuals follow what is normal to them because they do not know what else to do. That much-quoted normal 'lesson' in a German school at the end of the Great War, when Germany [Images] faced cataclysm, was an indication of helplessness rather than phlegm or courage.

Helplessness implies willing acceptance of victim-hood. Indians have lived for too long in this manner. A sense of personal outrage and humiliation would be a better substitute because it would lead to purposeful action. Citizens imbued with this feeling will demand action of their leaders.

As of now, there is a sense of general insecurity amongst citizens on the one hand, and the vigilantism is on the rise on the other hand, which merely shows that some groups of the population feel that they are getting a much worse deal than others, and take the law into their own hand. Nothing increases desperation amongst sensitive and concerned citizens more than the feeling that they are left to their own resources by the State. That is how vigilantism takes its roots.

Poor governance and government officials who are, corrupt, inefficient, indifferent, or cruel invigorate vigilantes who are driven by their own sense of moral rectitude, no matter how misplaced it may be. The countering of Pakistan-inspired terrorism has to be pursued single-mindedly and not relegated and clubbed with the 'war on terrorism' in general.

It is time to take heart that the Muslim clerics in India have dispelled such doubts on this score as might have been there, and declared that terrorism is not consistent with Islam. This should help in setting aside ungrounded suspicions. War against Pakistan-inspired terrorism is not a parochial undertaking; it represents a national consensus.

The indirect cost of the Malegaon-blast probe -- still climbing -- is very considerable. None can gainsay at present what national benefits would accrue from the Malegaon probe even when it is complete; but the collateral damage so far has already been overwhelming. It is no one's case that the Malegaon blast probe is either unimportant or unnecessary. It appears, however, that the probe exclusively held the attention of the security apparatus until November 26, 2008, when the disaster occurred. This could well have been an unintended consequence, but it was terrible. The perspective and the sense of proportion in evaluating threats, and assigning resources for combating them, are so very vital. There is a need for a serious review.

The success in combating Pakistan-inspired terrorism has not been significant, because a structured apparatus for the purpose is not in place yet.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Nov 2008 19:54

First of all my prayers for all the innocent civilians and brave police and commandos who lost their lives in this horrible terrorist attack. My heartfelt sympathies for all the affected families. I couldn’t help but weep in deep sorrow as things unfold for the past 24 hours. I am ashamed by the irresponsible and disrespectful attitudes of Indian prime minister and home minister.

Suspects:
(1) Al-Qaida: AQ did not have any significant operations in the past two years due to higher awareness and tight security measures across the world. No wonder they found India to be the softest target and attacked it with increased vigor.

(2) ISI with the help of Indian elements: This is highly probable IMO. I noticed that most of BR posters, media, and politicians push it on to Pakis and ISI in the faint hope that they can somehow separate Indian Muslims from these atrocities. What they fail to understand is most of Indian Muslims directly or indirectly facilitates attacks on Indian soil and people or secretly condones those attacks in the name of misinterpretation of Islam or misguided youth. One poster was crying aloud by bringing Kalam, Irphan Pathan etc names. All I can say is Kalam and Irphan like people are Indians, not Muslims because they never claimed to represent Muslim faith or community. They don’t even come out against these terror attacks and try to galvanize IM community against these atrocities and to help the law enforcement agencies by offering intelligence inputs or handing out culprits.

Facilitators
(3) Psec-Media: Once again the pseudo secular media showed its true colors by bending the truth and selling anti-national propaganda as news amidst of the crisis situation. I am really surprised why couldn’t Allah invite them to the jannat by sending couple of stray bullets in their direction so they can serve as houries for the latest round of pakis… Indeed Allah is a cruel ba$tard…The only hope is that they successfully made majority of Indian public feel disgusted by their antiques.

(4) Mafia: It is interesting to note that so many targets were reccied and arms and ammunition were supplied under the nose of intelligence agencies. I am pretty sure that some of these terrorists checked-in to those hotels a couple of days prior to these attacks. Now is the time to clean Mumbai of these mafia and anti-social elements.

(5) Political parties: We should thank the Maharastra govt for successfully diverting ATS resources, public focus away from this impending crisis.

Action Items
(6) Ending the crisis: Kill as many terrorist as possible. No point in arresting these guys. Our political parties and law-and-order agencies are so corrupt that we can expect any additional info or benefit from these arrests. At least we will be killing that many terrorists. See if a couple of media whores can be martyred so secular media can remember this terror strike for few years.

(7) The only long term solution is to galvanize Indian public against pseudo secular media and politicians. Work hard to remove these ba$tards from power in the upcoming elections.

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 27 Nov 2008 21:00

renukb wrote:(7) The only long term solution is to galvanize Indian public against pseudo secular media and politicians. Work hard to remove these ba$tards from power in the upcoming elections.

RamaY and renukb,

Couldn't agree with u more. As somebody did in the main thread for the
attacks in Mumbai, make a list of all the journalists, politicians, human rights activists,
film stars, elitists, intellectuals and news media who are with the enemy and practice untouchability with them. Ignore them. Avoid them. Keep them away with a 10 ft pole.
Avoid watching channels who side with the enemy and keep the list and keep passing it
around to like minded individuals and forums.

I saw the Prime Minister making a statement. Sorry to say, it made me want to puke.
It is sad that we don't have good leaders at the helm of affairs

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Nov 2008 21:21

None of the security measures including fixing Pakistan, can be carried out unless we have a clear consolidation of non-Muslim opinion and decisions. There are too many things to fix, and Jihad will not wait for Indians to fix all that has remined unfixed for more than 60 years.

(1) Forget regular media or academics - bring to the non-Muslim Indian the clear, honest, unedited, unabridged translations of what the supreme God of Islam and his "last" messenger enjoined upon the Muslims as duty - from unsympathetic (and therefore not trying desperately to whitewash and suppress) translators mainly from pre-Cold war period (so no western pressure to sanitize and flatter Islam as antidote to left!) like D.S. Margoliouth, and Guillaume. This will make it very clear what the overall agenda of Islam has been right from it birth - the repainting of Arabic Ghazwas - tribal raids of deception and violence to loot the property, wealth and owmen of others - as a proud profession sanctioned and urged on by divine authority. People here are gloating over "Deobandi fatwas" "condemning terrorism" as un-Islamic - but note that it is not anti-Islamic, not a crime of the order of punishments meted out in the Hudood for sexual offences, no declaring Murtad, or call for Muslims to kill such perpetrators of un-Islamic acts and obtain Behest. In our utter stupidity we fail to realize that on the one hand we are giving importance to fatwas and their claim over sosiety and on the other hand we naively trust that in the madrassahs, or in private, or to the higher educated who have greater understanding of political history - that none of the real Jihadi agenda is not at the same time being disseminated. Channel 4 UK broadcast a series of undercover reports detailing how Sunni Wahabi and Tabliqi Jamaat were actively propagating secretly hatred of the "Qafir", urging Muslims boys and girls to separate from the infidel, and to work towards the time when Sharia law could be established in the land - when caught and exposed they simply deny and say that Islam is peaceful, they were talking about a hypothetical future society, etc., etc. The Brahmin minister of Prithiviraj 3rd persuaded him not to join up with the Chalukyas of Gujarat to trap and finish off Ghori in one of his earlier raids to India. And we still have wise Indians so blind about Islam that they want to force us to share in their blindeness. Many of the top kings of North India converted to preserve land and power, and life, - no wonder we see them in the perversion of their descendant feudal power lords of Pakistan. Exposing Islam, not targeting Muslims is the primary ideological task.

(2) The second ideological and tactical task is to derecognize varna - start by giving the scared thread as initiation to all "Hindu" children including tribals as a signal of starting education - the way it was originally meant to be as revealed in the Vedas and Upanishads, irrespective of origin and gender. Start a campaign to establish that all four varnas are simply qualities each "Hindu" should have simultaneously - and each role should be played as and when needed - in war become a Kshatryia, in studies and teaching become a Brahman, in trade and commerec a Vaishya and in physical labout a shudra - all this if sincerely carried out will give a recognition and dignity so great to the common non-elite "Hindu" that we cannot even begin to comprehend - it will be a big step forward towards unification of Bharatyia culture - a ncessary precondition to have the numbers and authentic support to face the Islamic onslaught.

(3) Try to consider a Presidential form of government at the centre where the president is elected by direct vote by the people - (there can be made provisions to ensure that the president cannot belong to a political party) - a direct mandate by the people will make this person much more immune to factional and small group pressures and she/he will be able to choose more able professional people as aides in charge of departments and ministries not necessarily dependent on nomination by some political party which throws up incompetent and corrupt flatterers into positions requiring skill and ability connected to specific specializations.

(4) Amend the constitution to make it either more really and strictly secular so that the state no longer recognize, protects, or patronizes any religion, not even in laws and legal systems. No more sponsoring Hajj pilgrimages or Holy Land cruises, no allowing of foreign money to fund religious centres, strict registration and supervision of all religious bodies, and making it a critical offence in anything that can be interpreted to be intervention between the state and its citizen by religious authorities - no forever immune to human questioning "supreme being" given laws to be imposed as civil laws. If none of this can be done, and we have to continue with this parallel surrealistic existence of religious states within the nation-state - make the pre-Islamic Brharatyia cultural root as amended by modern humanitarian views the basis of the constitution, and derecognize violent, retrogressive, out-of-India centred religions like Islam.

(5) Begin to socially boycott Islam, and openly call upon them to convert into other religions or simply leave Islam and choose to live by a civil law. Social boycott to continue until this takes place. This has to be peaceful, non-violent - but determined and strict, no interaction, no selling or buying, no marriages, no services, no cooperation except in direct humanitarian crisis like healthcare - the strategy promulgated by Gandhiji against the British - until the last Muslim converts or chooses legally to live by the civil law and renounce all alegiance to Islam by affidavit and public declaration. This social boycott should be extended to all supporters and protectors of Islam - including in the media, academics and politics - it should be made very clear that this move is against Islam, aimed at erasing it completely as a practised philosphy and not against Muslims as persons - who are mostly descended from people left unprotected by the Hindu elite and converted under life and death options or penalizing crushing taxation or simply born of enslaved Hindu women - they are to the last non-Ashrafi bit - children of descendants of Hindu mothers whom we could not defend - and therefore are still liable to be called our brothers or sisters - but if and only if they leave Islam.

Only after these measures consolidate the Indian nation can we think of tackling TSP or its cronies.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Nov 2008 21:21

On the current attacks, not clear to me, the newsmedia is of no help.

1. How many terrorists all told? How many estimated local support (i.e., from within Mumbai)? How many from outside Mumbai?

2. How much planning and training is needed to reach the level that these terrorists did? Where and when were they trained?

3. Those from outside Mumbai - where are they from? How did they come (by boat? but where is the mothership - MV Alpha has been given a clean chit)? Where was their starting point?

4. It seems like significant logistics would have been required. How was this done?

5. If the operation required local support, how was it managed without any apparent leak?

Anyway, those questions are a bit of a diversion from the main purpose of this thread. Without pointing any fingers yet, just want to point out that Mahmud of Ghazni's invasion of India in the 11th century was planned and prepared for a generation before him (if we believe Al Biruni in his history). Do you think today's India has the ability to maintain and pursue strategic goals across generations? If not, how to develop it? The reason I ask this is because the solution to today's terrorism is likely not one that spans a year or five years or twenty five years, but perhaps much longer. I'd be happy to be surprised, but that is the grim thought that I have this morning.

It seems to me this cycle of violence, outrage, quiescence and repeat is in part because there is no quick fix and there is no vehicle to develop and execute long-term strategies.

Remember when the US formulated the Monroe doctrine, in 1823, it was not any kind of great power. It had not the military means to enforce it. It was a statement of strategic vision, and the US has pretty much followed it into the twentieth century.

(from Wiki) The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine which, on December 2, 1823, stated that European powers were no longer to colonize or interfere with the affairs of the newly independent states of the Americas. The United States would not interfere with existing colonies or their dependencies in the Western Hemisphere. However, any attempt by a European nation to oppress or control any nation in the western hemisphere would be seen as an act of aggression and the United States would intervene.

Please don't get diverted into whether this was good or bad, hegemonistic, imperialist, blah, blah, blah. The point to be noted is the ability of the nation to articulate and pursue a strategic vision across generations and governments and political parties that come and go.

You can be sure that India's enemies have an implicit belief that their side will continue the fight after their deaths - it is part of what makes them willing to be suicidal.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Nov 2008 21:31

Rahul M wrote:
negi wrote:Whenever people talk about change and reform , Afzal guru's incident comes to my mind , when a honorable man like Kalam himself exhibited weakness at the last juncture what can one expect from the scumbags in the LS/RS ?
...
could you explain what exactly you mean by this ?

Negi ji,
President Kalam literally had no say in this matter.
He had to, as per normal practice, forward the case to the MHA for their advice, and await their advice
This bloody advice from the MHA never came back to him during his tenure!
This advice from the MHA is still awaited even today!
The hijda heading the MHA was too busy with his tailor.
President Kalam continues to be honorable and did not exhibited any weakness during his tenure.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 27 Nov 2008 21:35

The new media is the blog. Blogs took down Dan Rather of CBS News. The latest victory claimed by the bloggers is the withdrawal of John Brennan from any consideration of a intelligence post in the Obama Administration. John Brennan is the adviser to the Obama transition team on intelligence matters; and he was fingered for having supported the Bush Administration's policies of torture, rendition and so on.

With that preface, here is an entry from one of the blogs that helped take down Brennan. Unfortunately one cannot post a response there. But anyone care to cogently shoot down this post? There is a false framing of the situation here.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... tacks.html

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 Nov 2008 21:37

I agree, President Kalam was one person fitter than Manmohan Singh to be at the helm. Manmohan was the person who proudly gave a speech at Oxford detailing how "Oxonians" like him had previously sailed to India to "rule India" - by this he meant the sundry looters and marauders of the Britsih "viceroyalty" with whom he is glad to identify with. It is unfortunate that military and social situations were such that the Hindu ancestors of people of calibre like President Kalam had to convert - we should ensure that this never happens again to children born to the non-Muslim Indian.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 27 Nov 2008 21:51

GuruNandan wrote: Avoid watching channels who side with the enemy and keep the list and keep passing it

To that I would add the newspapers and periodicals that need to be regularly rated as to which ones are nationalist and which ones are not. I am amazed at the number of folks in India who would otherwise be considered traditional Hindus who subscribe to The Hindu as newspaper or to NDTV for their primary news. The message needs to clearly go out, and the revenues of these channels needs to get directly impacted.

The Pioneer can tremendously increase its circulation nationwide by portraying itself through some effective advertising as the leading 'nationalist' paper in the country.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Nov 2008 22:49

Govt victim of its own soft-on-terror propaganda
27 Nov 2008, 1730 hrs IST, P R Ramesh, ET Bureau

Print EMail Discuss Share Save Comment Multiple pages view Text:
NEW DELHI: For the past several weeks, Ms Sonia Gandhi, her son Rahul Gandhi and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh have been feigning outrage over

the Opposition's soft-on-terror charge. Their collective shoulder-shrugging on the issue found predictable support from party mega-phones and loose-lipped "opinion makers".

But the Manmohan Singh government will now have an even harder time explaining its handling of internal security issues. The audacious jehadi attack on Mumbai has exposed not just the ill-preparedness of the security system but a complete lack of plan to fight the menace.

The Congress has only itself to blame as it has been celebrating the in-sane recklessness of the home minister and the security establishment that functions directly under the prime minister. The security of the nation was being allowed to be handled by men who are opposed to most of the tools that the agencies use for tackling terror; the party was in complete agreement that there was no need for a tough anti-terror law; its leaders have been routinely speaking out against inter-rogation techniques that anti-terror agencies routinely use worldwide; why, the ruling alliance would not even countenance the use of harsh language against jehadis.

By the home minister's own admission at the Union Cabinet meeting this morning, the attack on Mumbai was a planned one with the je-hadi elements even setting up "control room" of sorts in the two five-star hotels that were the targets of attack. There are also reports that the attackers came through the sea route. Incidentally, the National Security Advisor MK Narayanan has been "educating" the country about terrorists using sea routes for the past three years. It may be re-called that US Admiral Timothy J Keating, who was in Delhi, had sug-gested that India introduce some counter-measures such as Container Security Initiative to prevent terrorists' movement in those areas.

The Centre and leadership can be expected to lay the blame on the lack of "actionable intelligence" from the agencies. The prime minister has been making this point in all his recent internal security interven-tion s from seminar halls of the Capital.

But are the officers free to collect information about saboteurs? Not a chance. The prime minister had recently repeated that such an exer-cise must pass the test of political correctness. "A major challenge be-fore the police will be restoring the faith of the people -- specially those belonging to religious and ethnic minorities and the weaker sec-tions -- in the impartiality and effectiveness of the police.

Today, as-persions are being made regarding police impartiality and capabilities, and while I recognize that much of this is motivated, you must face up to the reality that many are convinced that the police is less than fair. This is so even when policemen die in the line of duty," he said at a police officers' conference in Delhi.

The prime minister attempted some tough-sounding rhetoric and made a "never again" declaration on Thursday. "We cannot afford a repetition of the kind of terrorist attacks that have recently taken place in Delhi, Hyderabad, Bangalore, Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Surat, Guwa-hati and some other urban centers". The list has now got longer: Co-laba, Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus and Ville Parle. Not many would get fooled by the rhetoric of the government or its protestations over the soft on terror charge.

While the prime minister is performing lip serv-ice to reform the rusted security mechanism, his party as well as sen-ior ministers have been spearheading smear campaigns against the police, seeking constitutional protection for illegal aliens, and organis-ing victim carivals at the behest of community hardliners.

The itch to diagnose the attacks as a "tragedy" that stems from a lack of "understanding" is certain to further swell the fear, angst and frus-tration among citizens. They see this as a government that is not in sync with them and out of touch with the country's national security goals. The consequences can be dangerous for the nation and as well as the ruling side. The electorate is not known to favour the gutless, clueless and the senseless.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... stry-1.cms

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 27 Nov 2008 23:21

Some suggestions from 'Terror Attacks in Mumbai' Thread:

Singha wrote:GOI should organize a id parade for the terrorist dead bodies and give them
a proper barrel wrapped in the skin of a freshly killed pig.

if the Shahi Imam makes one noise, I'd like him to be flushed out of old
delhi and handed over to the relatives of those killed for further processing.

SandeepA wrote:The bodies of dead terrorists must be displayed in public, faces mutilated, limbs torn apart, pee and poo on their trousers. Show them for the sissies they are let them know death will not be dignified.

RajeshA wrote:The bodies of these terrorists should not be buried. They should be burned. That is totally against their purported (and real) religion. So let them go to meet their 72 houris with burned bodies. In the future, it would also serve as a warning to all those fidayeen-candidates, that their bodies will never be buried, and their ashes will be disposed of in a shit tank.

The Muslims like to say of terrorists, they can't be Muslims, Islam is a religion of peace. In this case, the Muslims will also have no problem with that.

pran · Post by **pran** » 28 Nov 2008 00:58

LET HQ at Muridke should be a parking lot by now for the first response..... no second thoughts and escalate until the Pakistan no longer exist as a functioning entity. Lamp posts in India should be reserved for these pseudo secularist traitors.

Kangress Govt. - You have failed the nation . Spineless creatures at the helm. Shame on you.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 28 Nov 2008 01:09

Indian 'Terrorists' should immediately sieze the waterworks and stop all flow of water to the Piglets.

Indian Govt should express is inability to reopen supplies (although they are tring their best) - similar to the Pigs unable to control the piglets

Supplies , if ever, should be resumed only after a penalty of 1 day shut-down per Indian murdered in Mumbai

Let the pigs drink sea water -

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 28 Nov 2008 01:13

Instead of working on symptoms we should work on root cause.
Root cause is Congress. Be it Kashmir, Panjab or Mumbai. Its all created by Congress.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 01:17

There should be a complete boycott of all media, TV channels, anchors, newspapers, journalists, academics, GOI spokespersosn, politicians, political parties - that even hint of protecting Islam and try to give justifications behind Islamic Jihad. One person at the top elected by direct vote by the people, one civil law not recognizing religious claims of immunity, one compulsory educational system, one unified social welfare and healthcare system, complete supervision of all religious institutions under government control and no patronage, no protection, no sponsoriing of any religion.

Mumbaikers - do not allow any of outside politicians to come, boycott all political parties and leaders that have taken a position of protecting the basic ideology that sponsors Jihad - Islam. Indians who do not identify with Islam have to take a stand and use their social, economic and electoral power to bring to power a regime that will completely disassociate itself from everything Islamic. This needs determination and preparation as none of the existing parties may be courageous enough to take up this responsibility - and we need to look for candidates who should be part of a common platform fighting elections. In the urban areas, it should be possible to bypass official media suppression to a great extent through newer forms of communication such as the web or youtube.

So far all terror attacks have been happening in the fringe areas of Islam's dominance - where Islam is not fully sure of itself, where there are strong neighbour or remnant non-Muslim society in close proximity - like in Pakistan or Indonesia - none have happened in the core heartllands of Saudi Arabia or Iran - this is because no thieves do not burgle in their own backyard. Only if terror attacks began to happen in these core areas - and in those countries which support Islamic terror indirectly - like China through its support of Pakistan and Iran - would Islamic Jihad falter.

What I have suggested for reform and revival in India will never be safe and secure unless this erasure of Islam is carried on and out into the heartlands and supply source of Islamic Jihadi terror, but that probably is for the distant future. I hope I can live long enough to see this dream for India at least!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Nov 2008 02:12

Security forces used in-house telephones to ask guests holed up in their rooms to switch on lights and open curtains, so that they could provide cover, CNN correspondent Andrew Stevens reported.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 28 Nov 2008 02:42

Citizens need to become part of the security framework. I don't mean vigilantism.... But a senseable participation.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 28 Nov 2008 02:45

For a start, GoI needs to:

Hit MA.E.O.A Dawood c/o Jumbo Electronics.
Hang MA.E.O.A Afzal Guru right away.
Hand over bodies of these MA.E.O.A.s to MA.E.O.A Paki High Commissioner.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 28 Nov 2008 03:00

Thinking about it in terms of Domino effect, we need to identify which of the dominos are crucial... Thinking long-term, one domino is media.

(1) We need media to help mobilize the national opinion. Macalite elites that are major players in media are detached from both common man and are incapable of thinking for actual India.

(2) Added to that, I keep hearing from folks back home that Media is the new Mafia. They have unbriddled power without any reguluation or acountability. I have heard instances of reporters blackmailing folks on flimsy or non-existant charges.

(3) Private investments anywhere are allowed on the principle that the markets forces neccisitate self-correction (financial,content etc). But the key is, currently, if one chooses, they can continue without self-correction, as long as there are few populist moves. Indian elites, blinded by their prejudices, lack of accountability and plenty of FDI, can brush aside any negative feedback. It helps them that they may not be breaking any rules or that the rules are not enforced.

I believe there would be viewer activisim that would force self-correction, if Govt does what it should. Govt needs to regulate or make media accountable. But politicians as regulators is bad news, so I think the best chance is with accountability. If reporters cannot backup their smear campaings, media houses should be severely fined. Falsifying opinion polls, knowingly peddling propaganda, misinformation or ambush panels like Barkha's should be taken for task. Quoting anonymous sources should be an exception than a norm. There should be some watchdog agency that take complaints on media.

The above will succeed only when governing bodies have a good media arm to disperse information.

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 28 Nov 2008 03:31

May be i am hoping too much, but it seems to me that
this could be a water shed event where at least a few
intellectuals, journalists and politicians stop playing politics
and see the problem for what it is. I am hoping for a
transformation in the thinking of some individuals so that
they don't side with the enemy.

Also i agree with the suggestions of Manny, Brihaspathi and others.

I don't think ordinary citizens can look to the government to protect
them. We have to take responsibility for our own security and
form some kind of volunteer 'Citizen Defense Force'.

I saw that the performance of some of the media in this episode
was shameful. Giving away information about where the commandoes,
NS Guards are located.

This is a difficult time for every patriotic Bharatiya.

MohanSI · Post by **MohanSI** » 28 Nov 2008 03:43

Once all the damage is done and the dust settles, I can only hope that this attacks serves as a catalyst for positive change in the country's policing/governance. Going forward things need to be done differently than they have been in the past.

The last couple of times after L-E-T attacks the terrorist bodies were identified as so and so from Pakistan and then quietly buried/disposed of after a couple of months. I hope that the concerned agaencies take a different approach this time. They should put these bodies in formaldahyde and preserve them and have them be displayed semi-publically at a local fortified place until positively claimed by relatives (this may never happen, but hopefully it will incense the L-E-T enough to get them make some pronouncements on it). Next time there is another terrorist attack, announce that the preserved bodies have been identified/not identified, and burn them at the trash incinerators. I don't expect it to be much of a deterrent, but it will atleast create consternation/doubt in future terrorists, and maybe soothe some of the anger of the victims.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 28 Nov 2008 03:47

RajeshA wrote:The bodies of these terrorists should not be buried. They should be burned. That is totally against their purported (and real) religion. So let them go to meet their 72 houris with burned bodies. In the future, it would also serve as a warning to all those fidayeen-candidates, that their bodies will never be buried, and their ashes will be disposed of in a shit tank.

The Muslims like to say of terrorists, they can't be Muslims, Islam is a religion of peace. In this case, the Muslims will also have no problem with that.

No these jihadi dead bodies should be give the same treatment that Tipu Sultan gave to muslim deserters viz. Bury them with a dead pig. That is guaranteed to take away any chance of meeting 72 houries or Jannat, and the only place they will land after death is Hell.

Every terrorist will dread dying in Indian land. That will make them certain that indulging in terrorism will waste this life as well as the next one.

And as per Islamic belief they will be damned to hell till eternity and for ever.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2008 03:49

I would say catch them, but say they are dead for the ddm folks. And then, put them in life cells, where you can show them what is hell.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 03:49

media control can be maintained even if the media is formally independent. There has been a consistent buildup by regime sponsored historians and academics that everything Islamic is good, desirable, infinitely superior to anything the non-Muslims of India had, "Hindu" means repressive caste system and all sorts of evil - no evils in Islam etc...the media is under the grips of this immense brain-washing. No amount of media-cleansing will help. We have to discard that portion of the media that continues to protect and defend Islam.

There is also the need to form non-Muslim's own social organizations and networks that will maintain surveillance over all localities and especially Muslim youth. The Islamophile state machines and politicians, or security agencies infiltrated by Jihadis will try desperately to infiltrate and destroy such surveillance networks - Hindus will have to be extremely careful that these anti-national elements cannot "buy" out or "pressurize members to divulge information as there is every likelihood that such information will land up in the hands of double agents of the Jihadis. If the Islamophile politicians fail to break up such surveillance they will try out methods they have tried out in the Malegaon blasts to terrorize and cow down "Hindus" into submission.

We need an independent non-Muslim platform and network working towards this end. The Bharatyia nation needs to form and be loyal to itself - present an united front - nay - one single face against everything that is trying to tear us down.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 03:52

Arun_s wrote:No these jihadi dead bodies should be give the same treatment that Tipu Sultan gave to muslim deserters viz. Bury them with a dead pig. That is guaranteed to take away any chance of meeting 72 houries or Jannat, and the only place they will land after death is Hell. Every terrorist will dread dying in Indian hand. That will make then certain that indulging in terrorism will waste their this life as well as the next one. And as per Islamic belief they will be damned to hell till eternity and for ever.

Arun_S: Wow!!! Brilliant and I couldn't agree more. We need to take away the incentive to kill the infidels, which is the martyrdom and the glory of heaven.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 Nov 2008 03:56

Arun_S wrote:No these jihadi dead bodies should be give the same treatment that Tipu Sultan gave to muslim deserters viz. Bury them with a dead pig. That is guaranteed to take away any chance of meeting 72 houries or Jannat, and the only place they will land after death is Hell. Every terrorist will dread dying in Indian land. That will make then certain that indulging in terrorism will waste their this life as well as the next one. And as per Islamic belief they will be damned to hell till eternity and for ever.

That may have worked 200 years ago but today there will be fatwa from scholars deeming such burial as irrelevant. The verse from the Koran that forbids consumption of pork forgives this if starvation is the alternative. No act of corpse desecration by an infidel will remove any reward for a mujahid.

GuruNandan · Post by **GuruNandan** » 28 Nov 2008 03:58

Article by Barry Rubin

If the terrorists come from bases or training camps in Pakistan, after all, India wants international action to be taken. Pakistan must be pressured to close such camps, stop helping terrorists, and provide information possessed by Pakistani intelligence agencies.

But how might this happen? Will Western countries make a real effort? Are they going to impose sanctions on Pakistan or even denounce it? Will they make public the results of their own investigations about responsibility for the terror campaign against India?

Not likely. After all, such acts would cost them money and involve potential risks, perhaps even of the terrorists targeting them. Moreover, they need Pakistan for various things, notably to cooperate on keeping down other Islamist terrorist threats, not spread around nuclear weapons' technology too much, and being cooperative on maintaining some stability in Afghanistan.

This parallels Israel's situation with Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. For decades, the United States and some European countries have talked to the Syrian Government about closing down terrorist headquarters in Damascus. The Syrians merely say "no" (though sometimes they have just lied and said the offices were closed). The United States even did put on some sanctions. But by being intransigent, pretending moderation, and hinting help on other issues, Syria has gotten out of its isolation.

So, despite all the pious talk about fighting terrorism, in real terms, India -- like Israel -- is largely on its own in defending itself from terrorism.

Another problem India faces, like Israel in the case of Lebanon, is that it is dealing with a country that lacks an effective Government. Pakistan is in real terms a state of anarchy. Even within the intelligence apparatus, factions simply do as they please in inciting terrorism. Given popular opinion and Pakistan's Islamic framework, even a well-intentioned Government would be hard-put to crackdown.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/137436/Indi ... s-own.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2008 04:01

brishaspati, what is a plausible solution if you may say? I don't read your ideal notions becoming realities any time in the future. Its just for taking some reality check. btw, I do agree that we could still consider pre-partition stance to send people to where their feel home and patriotic. We could amend our constitution for that, may be based on a vote or poll that determines citizen's loyalty.

After that, it should be all pointing to men coming from the neighborhood.. and we can talk miles about preparedness, surveillance systems, advanced radars, etc.. but at least we have a proof for both DDM and FDM folks that we have staunch patriots here, and none in what they think.

Also, gives those non patriots a chance to think as well, if you say, we have a large section of such people., and further, a small investment is good. BTW, we could give them a chance and time to move, else convert to be Indian patriots, and if they fail, we could tag them as terrorists.

The number one issue is we don't have administrative and constitutional setup with young minds to see into future.. we have way too old men, who just live there for the sake of getting us into this never ending cycle.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 28 Nov 2008 04:03

Gerard wrote:
Arun_S wrote:No these jihadi dead bodies should be give the same treatment that Tipu Sultan gave to muslim deserters viz. Bury them with a dead pig. That is guaranteed to take away any chance of meeting 72 houries or Jannat, and the only place they will land after death is Hell. Every terrorist will dread dying in Indian land. That will make then certain that indulging in terrorism will waste their this life as well as the next one. And as per Islamic belief they will be damned to hell till eternity and for ever.
That may have worked 200 years ago but today there will be fatwa from scholars deeming such burial as irrelevant. The verse from the Koran that forbids consumption of pork forgives this if starvation is the alternative. No act of corpse desecration by an infidel will remove any reward for a mujahid.

Saar it was a solid deterrent then, under Tipu Sultan, and it is a solid deterrent even now. To be buried in an unmarked grave with a Pig till the day of reckoning, much less the disposition after that will make dead believer shudder when alive.

It is a mind game of FEAR. If terrorists FEAR something it is burial with Pig, no matter a lipstick fatwa.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2008 04:08

In prison, we can feed them pig blood, and dead pigs uncooked decayed food as well!.. rather a slow sleep with to hell.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Nov 2008 04:09

Wasn't it the case, that US forces burned some Taliban dead bodies and there was rage in some quarters, that they were desecrating the Muslim dead, the theory being that the bodies of Muslims will be taken as they are to Jannat. Some Fidayeen even protect their piglet production machines with extra protection before they go and blow themselves up.

Since there are many ways out there to really 'desecrate' the bodies of these terrorists, why not use all of them together.
Of course one can't burn the bodies and bury them with pigs at the same time.

How about stuffing the mouths of these ba$tards with pork, before burning them!

On a serious note, something in this direction could convince many Fidayeen, that dying in India may not be conducive to getting the 72 houris in Jannat. Maybe then they may be dissuaded. The more publicity such treatment with these bodies get, the better. There may be some indignation in LeT circles and some noises of retaliation on this, but attacks would have be expected anyway.