Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jan 2009 23:00

Rudderless at topThe turf war in Pakistan is most disconcerting.

The multiple voices that emanate from Pakistan on the issue of handling terrorism have not only exposed the rift in the top echelons of government but also created fresh doubts about the willingness and ability of the establishment to deal with it effectively. After the civilian government took over in the country there were genuine fears about its freedom of action in a set-up where the military is supreme. While this domination continues, the civilian establishment has weakened itself with the prime minister and the president talking and acting at cross purposes and all political parties trying to undercut each other. Nowhere were the differences between Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and President Asif Ali Zardari more glaring than in the sacking of the National Security Advisor Mahmud Ali Durani by Gilani. Durani had admitted that the terrorist captured by India was a Pakistani national, after due clearance from the president and the army. Gilani’s contention that the announcement was unauthorised does not seem to be correct. With Zardari hitting back at Gilani, the issue has turned into a turf war which Pakistan in its present state of trouble and turmoil can do without.

Gilani has also questioned the seriousness of the Mumbai terrorist attack and tried to bring in issues like the Kashmir dispute and Israel’s attack on Gaza in an attempt to underplay Pakistan’s responsibility. He has even tried to shift the blame to India by pointing out the security failure that the attack exposed. This is logic turned upside down and taken to an absurd length. The reports that the banned Jamaat-ud-Dawa has started regrouping under a different name also shows that the government’s commitment to fight terrorism is not convincing. Gilani says Pakistan also is a victim of terrorism. In that case it should be all the more serious in countering it, instead of finding excuses to evade responsibility.

India would find it difficult to deal with Pakistan in this milieu, unable to decide who is in charge in Islamabad. It may also be that the multiple speak is a deliberate strategy or ploy but this is unlikely because the differences that have surfaced are not only about terrorism and relations with India. The ultimate beneficiary could only be the military, because a civilian leadership that discredits itself and proves itself unable to lead the country can only pave the way for the heavy boots to return to power. This is unfortunately what has happened in Pakistan many times in the past.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 15 Jan 2009 23:04

Come on, guys, read the various claims about the "America trip" and check the time scales claimed. This is all 400% disinformation. The poor woman has been harassed and confused by the papparrazzi.

I don't know what the authorities could have done without being blamed for interfering in her life, but I do believe her life is in danger. Theoretically, she can identify any terrorists that may get caught alive, and she can say who she talked to at the police station, that did not act on her warning.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 15 Jan 2009 23:13

narayanan wrote:Come on, guys, read the various claims about the "America trip" and check the time scales claimed. This is all 400% disinformation. The poor woman has been harassed and confused by the papparrazzi.

I don't know what the authorities could have done without being blamed for interfering in her life, but I do believe her life is in danger. Theoretically, she can identify any terrorists that may get caught alive, and she can say who she talked to at the police station, that did not act on her warning.

Absolutely correct, if she is credible witness, she needs to have 'witness protection' and not some money as being touted. There is attempt to malign, and discredit her statements, so will be useless as a witness. Also, if she is valuable as a witness, during investigation, if there is sincere effort to actually prosecute, then this witness will be very valuable during trials.
1) There is no sincere effort for prosecution.
2) Looks like only information is being tapped from this witness for whatever it is worth, not with the intent of booking or bringing the culprits to justice.
3) Ensure she is not mentally well poised and shoot any credibility.
Also what is the need to get statements in US, can't it be done in embassies and consulates?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 15 Jan 2009 23:31

GUYS, HOW EXACTLY DO YOU GET FROM Mumbai to America and back, leaving Sunday morning (or evening, depending on all the places where she claims to have gone) and returning at 1:50AM on Wednesday morning?

Please do the madarssa math. These reports are garbage.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 15 Jan 2009 23:52

narayanan wrote:GUYS, HOW EXACTLY DO YOU GET FROM Mumbai to America and back, leaving Sunday morning (or evening, depending on all the places where she claims to have gone) and returning at 1:50AM on Wednesday morning?
Please do the madarssa math. These reports are garbage.

Funny you ask this elementary question!
She was taken to the local chapter of pinewood studios in bollywood, mumbai. Goras hired from the beaches of goa were made to act as CIA.

Now a witness who cannot differentiate the swanky-india from america has no credibility in identifying terror suspects. Milord, this witness is dismissed as lacking credibility.

Since we do need some thread to post the developing stories, i request that this thread be left open. I shall change the title to "Non-response", unless the noble admins can tell us which thread to use & stick to.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 16 Jan 2009 00:07

narayanan wrote:GUYS, HOW EXACTLY DO YOU GET FROM Mumbai to America and back, leaving Sunday morning (or evening, depending on all the places where she claims to have gone) and returning at 1:50AM on Wednesday morning?

Please do the madarssa math. These reports are garbage.

hmm........ she might have been debriefed in US consulate in mumbai

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2009 00:12

pgbhat wrote:
narayanan wrote:GUYS, HOW EXACTLY DO YOU GET FROM Mumbai to America and back, leaving Sunday morning (or evening, depending on all the places where she claims to have gone) and returning at 1:50AM on Wednesday morning?

Please do the madarssa math. These reports are garbage.

hmm........ she might have been debriefed in US consulate in mumbai

You mean interrogated or questioned.
Debriefing is for Paki genarails.

saip · Post by **saip** » 16 Jan 2009 00:30

narayanan wrote:GUYS, HOW EXACTLY DO YOU GET FROM Mumbai to America and back, leaving Sunday morning (or evening, depending on all the places where she claims to have gone) and returning at 1:50AM on Wednesday morning?

Please do the madarssa math. These reports are garbage.

Not so fast. Say you catch Continental flight from Mumbai on Sunday night (11pm) , you will be Newark at 6 am Monday then spend a few hours being 'debriefed' by amrikhans and catch the return flight at 10 pm Monday. You will be in Mumbai by 10 pm Tuesday. Then spend a few hours going through the scrap at Chat Shivaji airport (trust me there is lot of scrap at that airport) and reach home at 2 am.

She sure has lot of imagination.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2009 00:33

All the obfuscation is to hide the fact that she was not really missing but was interviewed by US investigators. That is the core fact. All others are to mask that fact. Now was the interview in desh or abroad? If its desh there is a cooperation agreement. If its outside then its new details/insight into whats happening.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jan 2009 00:35

Dealing with Pak terror: A mendicant government
By Satish Chandra
The government's hope that the US will pull India's chestnuts out of the fire is misplaced and foolish.

Six weeks after the Mumbai incident, the Damocles sword of further terrorist attacks continues to haunt the country. This is due to the fact that the government has done too little too late to tighten the internal security system and to put an end to Pakistan’s involvement with terrorist activities directed against us.

The removal of a couple of blatantly incompetent politicos, the creation of a federal investigation agency, introduction of tougher anti terrorism laws, decision to create additional NSG hubs, moves for greater maritime security coordination, sensitisation of chief ministers to the need for security etc. are merely baby steps.
Had the government really been serious about tightening the internal security system it would have sacked all the intelligence chiefs, in particular the NSA, who has systematically run down the security related institutions and mechanisms specifically created to prevent Mumbai-like incidents.
It would also have ordered the speedy implementation of the approximately 350 recommendations contained in the Group of Ministers’ report on reforming the national security system which were disregarded or stymied by it following its assumption of office. It would, furthermore, have sacked one of its own minister, A R Antulay for playing vote bank politics on this issue.

If the government’s endeavours on the internal front have been uninspiring, its efforts at pressurising Pakistan through the international community to wind down the infrastructure of terror and bring to book those responsible for master-minding the Mumbai incident have yielded nothing. Indeed, they have been counterproductive as they have shown up India as a soft state unable to act effectively even with respect to its critical security concerns.
The decision to send the Union home minister to the US to plead for help, much like a mendicant, is a matter of shame.

The government’s hope that the US will pull India’s chestnuts out of the fire is misplaced. The US never has, and never will, use its considerable leverages in order to compel Pakistan to give up its use of terrorism against India.
Indeed, given that Afghanistan is the major focus of concern for the US, the latter may well lean on us to continue to give more space to Pakistan on terrorism and on Kashmir in order to influence it to be more proactive against the Taliban.

The government’s thinking on this score is based partly on exaggerated notions of the extent to which the nuclear deal will influence the US in our favour and partly on the puerile projections by some of our strategic analysts that the US will help make India a ‘Great Power.’ It is, however, naïve to suggest that any country makes another country a great power. Greatness is achieved not by piggy backing but by the dint of one’s own efforts.

In this backdrop, the country would have been better served had the government resorted to direct action against Pakistan through a mix of the following measures designed to inflict pain on it till such time that it gave up on terrorism as an instrument of foreign policy: Downgrading of diplomatic links; terminations of sports, cultural etc links; termination of the composite dialogue process; termination of economic CBMs; steps to undermine Pakistan’s economy; exploitation of Pakistan’s faultlines in Baluchistan and elsewhere; minimising release of Indus waters to Pakistan and maximising their use in India as permitted under the Indus Waters Treaty; demanding renegotiation of Indus Waters Treaty; elimination of terrorist elements operating in Pakistan, including those in the ISI, through covert action, focused strikes and hot pursuit.

This is not to suggest that the government should not have sought to mobilise the international community against Pakistan. Obviously, we needed to do so. Optimal results would, however, have been achieved had this not been a go it alone exercise and been accompanied by some of the measures cited above. After all, how can we expect the international community to act against Pakistan if we do not don’t take it up ourselves?

Moreover, it needs to be borne in mind that our diplomatic campaign is handicapped by the baggage of the last few years when, as per US dictates, and our leadership’s disregard for conventional wisdom in the name of “out of the box” thinking, we refrained from reacting sharply to repeated instances of Pakistan sponsored terrorism. Indeed, on the contrary, we equated Pakistan with India as a victim of terror, set up a joint terror mechanism with it, and even after the attack on our mission in Kabul our prime minister, in his address to the UN General Assembly, had not a word of criticism against Pakistan.

Clearly the government’s moves in response to Mumbai attack are woefully inadequate and the ceaseless sound bytes emanating from it seem like a “tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
(The writer is a former deputy national security advisor, who was also India’s former high commissioner in Pakistan)

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 16 Jan 2009 00:57

From Expedia:
Sun 22-Feb-09
Mumbai (BOM) Depart 11:40 pm Terminal 2 INTERNATIONAL to Newark (EWR) Arrive 5:25 am +1 day Terminal C
7,789 mi (12,535 km)
Duration: 16hr 15mn
CO Continental Flight: 49

Mon 23-Feb-09 Newark (EWR) Depart 8:20 pm Terminal C to Mumbai (BOM) Arrive 9:40 pm +1 day Terminal 2 INTERNATIONAL
7,789 m (12,535 km)
Duration: 14hr 50mn
CO Continental Flight: 48

Faster if Chartered.

S

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Jan 2009 00:59

Wow! When a former Ambassador calls the External Affairs Minister and the PM "idiots" ... (er... who else has been "telling the tales" "full of sound and fury but signifying nothing"?) it is time to get a paper cone of roasted peanuts and a bottle of Nimbu Pani, put feet up on the nearest tree-trunk and sit back to enjoy the entertainment. Hopefully not on an ant-hill.

I was only kidding, but it DOES appear that the dilli billis are on vacation. To put it in the elegant terms of my former Boss' secretary describing the Boss' Boss' secretary:

Even when she is here, she is not ALL here..

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Jan 2009 01:02

Samuel, what would be the point of flying someone to NEWARK of all places, in January, to ask a few questions? Just curious...

If they just wanted her to meet rude Americans and pickpockets, don't u think there are enough in Mumbai and the American Consulate in Mumbai?

Also, what shape would a fisherwoman used to a Mumbai seaside routine be, after said trip in January Newark weather?

Maybe they flew her to Diego Garcia...

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 16 Jan 2009 01:05

I have no idea. As posted on the whine thread, it makes no sense to me to fly them to the US. Acharya seems to think this is for a deposition, but deposits can be collected in an embassy too, I think, with a redneck and pandu both present. If, on the other hand, you need a judge to be present, and it was a secret court and all the interrogation etc. was already done, and there was some reason the secret court could not video tape secretly from a secret location in mumbai and there was some signing or thumb printing in front of someone necessary in the US or something else...well fly from BOM to EWR, eat good food, see judge, shake hand, answer the question about identity and verify facts (4 hours). Go to sleep, eat at mcdonalds, fly back.

The point is not whether or not it makes sense to do it, but whether it can be done at all.

S

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 16 Jan 2009 01:10

narayanan wrote:Maybe they flew her to Diego Garcia...

You are missing Germany and England.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 16 Jan 2009 01:10

ONe speculation is; probably one of the piglets is already in a Gitmo like base in US/Deigo Garcia. Identification parade?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 16 Jan 2009 01:13

THAT makes sense. Musharraf has a house in New Jersey. Must be close to Newark. And we hear that Mush is there.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 16 Jan 2009 01:41

Regarding UPA's reaction:

Bhains pooncch uthaegi to gana nahin gaegi, gobar hi karegi.

The wisdom comes to you courtesy Prem Chopra.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jan 2009 01:53

JwalaMukhi wrote:ONe speculation is; probably one of the piglets is already in a Gitmo like base in US/Deigo Garcia. Identification parade?

quite true.. because piglets are going to be released soon.. obama is shutting down gitmo base. may be she had a pretty good sr71/avatar ride!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Jan 2009 02:02

Another Pranabda kabhi hot kabhi thanda acts

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 985741.cms

NEW DELHI: Foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee on Thursday made it plain that India would not let Pakistan get away without acting against those responsible for the Mumbai attacks, and dismissed as unconvincing and unacceptable Islamabad's response so far. lost count but how many times did he say this?

In an exclusive interview to TOI, he said that India needs to see concrete action and that a mere window dressing would just not do. "Pakistan's response has to be one which can convince us that Pakistan is ready to tackle this (terrorism) seriously. We don't want a repetition of what happened after the Parliament attack (when Pakistan gave commitments which it did not fulfil)," said the minister who is seen as leading the country's response to the Mumbai attacks. haha, us baar kum se kum, commitment ka vaada aaya, is baar to abhi tak thenga mila hain

The Congress stalwart dismissed as unconvincing Pakistan's reported action of shutting down five Jamaat-ud-Dawa camps and detaining 120-odd terrorists belonging to Lashkar-e-Taiba and other groups, and insisted that India needs proof.
[color=#0080FFF]Even Pakistan is asking for "proof", the difference is you are asking for truth and they .. [/color]

He made no bones of his scepticism of the latest claims from Pakistan, pointing out that such "bans" tended to be half-baked. "If an organisation is banned, is it possible to have part of its activities considered undesireable? I read that their charities will not be affected. If an organisation is banned, all practices must be banned," said the veteran minister.
what else did you expect sir?

Mukherjee said he would await fuller details on happenings in Pakistan while strongly expressing disapproval of Pakistan's tactic of talking through media. "Sometimes we get these through the media. Pakistan is also not communicating with us either through our mission here or even directly...officially we have had no communication from them (on shutting of JuD camps and detentions)."
because what is said to the media can be tomorrow said as "misinterpreted"

He also brushed aside the alibi given by many quarters that Islamabad was unable to act against terrorist groups because of multiple power centres. Maintaining that it was incumbent on the Pakistan government to first uncover the conspiracy and then act against the perpetrators, Mukherjee said, "We will interact with the constitutional government there. It is up to them to sort out anything else...it is their internal matter."
wah waah, kya baat hain. yahaan pe bhi bureacracy, jiske pass bal hain uske paas hain unke paas nahi jaayenge sirf mukhete ke paas jayenge

Asking for verifiable action against the 26/11 terrorists, he said India would not accept mock trials by Pakistan. The minister reiterated the demand that Indian nationals hiding in Pakistan must be handed over. "Indian fugitives have to be handed over to us. There should be no distinction there. We would also expect their associates to be handed over, but we are urging that even if they don't do this, Pakistan should have a serious, and not a sham trial of these suspects," he said.
which effectively means that the Indian demand for handing over them has been trashed by our gournament

Mukherjee said that he had been amazed by the manner in which even foolproof evidence presented to Pakistan was dismissed in no time at all. "When we get some material these are handed over at a political level. These are to be examined, scrutinised by competent authority. But as soon as they have received it, they came to the conclusion this has to be information and that is what the Pakistan PM told their legislature. That is why I say they are in denial," he said.
aap ko yeh baat itne der ke baad samajh mein aaya, janaab?
He did not agree with the assessment that the diplomatic offensive by India has failed to convince some nations that Pakistan's official agencies were involved in the Mumbai attacks. Mukherjee said that diplomacy takes time to work and "individual countries" have their perceptions. "Other countries have said Pakistan has to do much more than they have done. They recognise Pakistan is the epicentre of terrorism."

the net result is sir,....... they will ask Pakistan only and only if these countries interests are not effected.

On the US response to the terror strikes, and whether it had been adequate, Mukherjee said Washington had been "positive" but it needed to be seen what was being done with respect to Pakistan. "US is positive but we don't know what steps were taken to influence Pakistan to fight against terrorism. Pakistan must dismantle the terrorist infrastructure and abide by its international commitments...All terror attacks in India coming from outside are originating from Pakistan."

This comment is a clever one by him. Effectively he says that US only a mere detractor in the whole theatracalities, that is actually US is a negative for India.

He said that India would pursue various options with Pakistan. On home minister P Chidambaram's comments that all ties could be cut off, the minister said, "He (Chidambaram) said it in response to a question. There are various options and he illustrated one. That is not the decision of the government."

I never understand this thing from our politicians. If one of them takes a tough stand and is in Indias advantage to say that, why do we need to pour water over it instead of merely diverting the question?

But Mukherjee did agree that the terrorist attack on Mumbai raised a "a very large question mark over the achievements of the composite dialogue process over the past 4 and a 1/2 years, and in this context the joint anti-terrorism mechanism and the home secretaries' meetings have not delivered the results we anticipated." He pointed out that this was not a good development as it raised doubts about the utility of dialogue as a means to resolve bilateral differences.

He should never have said this statement, bilateral differences have to solved to solved bilaterally, why is Indian DM falling into this pit?

The foreign minister rejected the effort to see terrorism against India as a fallout of a larger regional problem. On incoming US secretary of state Hillary Clinton saying that India was one of the reasons why the "challenge" of Pakistan was complicated, he noted that "terrorism is a global phenomenon. So far as Mumbai is concerned, it is a part of the battle against global terrorism. The origin of this attack is in Pakistan and there are reasons to believe and there is evidence to clearly indicate that this level of operation cannot happen without a well-planned conspiracy."

With some of the comments relating to the incoming Obama administration in US being seen as a likely return of the old India-Pakistan hyphenation, the minister said that "we don't see this as an issue of military confrontation or any other. This is an issue relating to terrorism; therefore, no hyphenation or dehyphenation arises from it." He didn't see possibility of the Kashmir issue being raked up by the Obama administration. "Frankly I don't see any such relationship. I believe terrorism as a phenomenon needs a clear understanding rather than simply relating it to any available issue."

Good attempt at not trying to fall for terrorism because of Kashmir trap
The minister said that the focus would stay on terrorism affecting India even as a new administration prepares to take office and made the point that "we have no reason to believe America will need encouragement to address and focus on security issues relating to neighbourhood which, if not addressed urgently, are bound to affect the entire civilised world. We have noticed that the incoming administration have said the attention should revert to the `forgotten war' in Afghanistan which impacts security of Afghanistan, the region and US.

another good one of trying to equate terrorism with pak in afghan

(The full text of the interview will appear on Saturday)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2009 02:09

Pranab Mukherjee is the designated blow hot guy in this drama. Unfortunately he has no track trecord and is thus ineffective. And subject to ridicule.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 16 Jan 2009 02:23

ramana wrote:Pranab Mukherjee is the designated blow hot guy in this drama. Unfortunately he has no track trecord and is thus ineffective. And subject to ridicule.

If our blow hot guy is only this hot

, I think that the designated blow cold guy is miliband.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 16 Jan 2009 04:41

Pranab is.all bitty shitty onlee

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 16 Jan 2009 05:49

While being unsurprised at India's response to Mumbai, I'm a little puzzled by China's response to Mumbai in light of a few things.

Let's take a look at something:

Stratfor podcast says that Mumbai terrorist controllers ordered Chinese women to be shot

Longwar Journal says that Hamid Gul was one of the controllers directing the Mumbai terrorists over the phone, which is why India and the US sought to have the UN put Gul under international terror sanctions.

Christian Science Monitor says that China saved Hamid Gul from UN terror sanctions

The order of these linked articles is from most recent to oldest. It may be that China did not know of Gul's complicity in the murder of Chinese hostages when they protected him from UN sanctions. I wonder if the Chinese might have a change of heart, when they learn the truth. They seemed to get pretty sharp with Pakistan over the Red Mosque kidnapping situation involving Chinese nationals.

What do you all think?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 16 Jan 2009 06:04

Unsolicited advice not needed: India to Miliband

Govt accused of u-turn on 26/11

Alluding to recent remarks by visiting British Foreign Secretary David Miliband and US ambassador David Mulford, the main opposition party said these assertions were "a dazzling blow to the Indian government's stand" about the complicity of Pakistan's state agencies in the November 26 Mumbai carnage.

"It is indeed an unfortunate situation where we have a government which is down on its knees, totally failing to react to these statements," BJP spokesperson Rajiv Pratap Rudy said in a statement.

This is new and if true, very disturbing, IMO.

The BJP also objected to Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah's remarks in which he asked for a third-party intervention to settle the dispute.

"His appeal to David Miliband to mediate in Jammu and Kashmir issue is completely unacceptable and the BJP condemns it. This defies the federal fabric of our constitution," he said.

WTF? Omar calling for outside mediation on J&K. And GoI will go along? Was that the reason we saw 62% polling oh-so-smooth recently?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Jan 2009 06:29

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/87754

Indian Muslims criticize Terrorism
Tanveer Jafri
January 13, 2009
The terror attacks on November 26, on the Hotel TAJ, Hotel Oberoi and CST railway station, in the big city, Mumbai in India shocked and moved the pride of all Indians. People in all over India are criticizing this terror attack happened in India while specially in Mumbai, Delhi, Jaipur, Hydrabad , Calcutta and other prominence cities people are collectively demonstrating and taking out peace march criticizing this inhuman terror attack. At all places, the martyrs from Indian security forces, who laid their lives in these terror attacks are being paid homage. It is far the first time that people in such huge gatherings, without any organization invitation and planning are holding meetings and rallies and expressing their anger. People from all religions and communities from the Indian society have shown their anger against the terror attacks. This anger of the Indian society is not limited to the terror attacks but short comings of the Indian politics, want of will power in the politicians and nurturing of the terrorist training camps in Pakistan are too being aimed at.

Undoubtedly all the Indians have united and strongly criticized with one voice the terrorists attack on November 26 in Mumbai. But after this attack the Indian Muslims are taking some hard steps that give true message of the Indian Muslims against terrorism. The incident that took place in Mumbai went of for three days between the terrorists and security forces and NSG commandoes. Nine terrorists were killed and one was caught alive. The arrested terrorist is Ajmal Aamir Qasab and is citizen of Pakistan. The arrested terrorist has told that all his 9 associates, who were killed in the combat, belonged to the Muslim community. He, even, told the names of 9 members of the gang. Government of India and all the state governments in India do the last ritual rites of the dead bodies, according to the religion of the deceased. Obviously this was to be done with the corpses of the Muslims terrorists too. The unclaimed Muslim bodies found in the big city of Mumbai or the Muslims who die in the combat with the police in Mumbai are buried in the Marine lines grave yard in Mumbai.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jan 2009 06:44

AdityaM wrote:Link to previous thread:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=680

India goes soft; says 26/11 trial in Pakistan OK, if fair
In a change in the government's public position on the extradition of the Mumbai attackers to India
, Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee has told a news channel that if for some reason the suspects can't be handed over to India, then there should be a fair trial in Pakistan.
"Indian fugitives should face Indian justice. Others who have committed crimes against India should also be extradited. But if for some reason that is not possible, then there should be a transparent trial in Pakistan," said Pranab.

May I post a different take on this.

The game here is to nail the Pakis into confessing that the criminals are in Pakistan and then bringing them to justice.

"Extradition" has one advantage and one disadvantage.

The advantage is that it is a powerful demand which can later be watered down as part of bargaining

The disadvantage is the risk of torn shirt vs open fly i.e it serves as a point on which to obfuscate and change the subject.

Let me use an analogy as is my wont

Shiv: "Aditya I want you to return my money and I demand that you send it to me with your wife" (This is two demands in one - you are guilty, and repay me wit money + visit from wife)

Aditya: "What money? This is a ridiculous demand. I am not going to send my wife to you"

Shiv is now caught in his own rhetoric. Aditya has changed the subject to the fact that his wife is not going to be sent and the technicalities of that. But Shiv has scored a point in making Aditya admit that there is something to talk about. If Shiv had asked "Send me the money", Aditya could have said "What money?"

So Shiv now scores a rhetorical point and says , "OK, wife not needed. Send the money via bank transfer"

The point here is that Pakistan is refusing to admit that it has anything to do with 26/11. But they are actually caught in a diplomatic pincer.

Everyone is saying that they are responsible and they are denying it. If they admit it now - then they will be asked why the lied in the first place. if they keep denying, they will be called liars.

Pakistan is in a tough situation. Pressure being applied on them is to create some kind of internal split where one group goes against the other and admits that there are people within the establishment who are involved here.

The guilty party in Pakistan are powerful enough to control boob squeezer Gilani, Zardari as well as kick out Durani without allowing an admission of guilt.

But India's case rests on the US and echelon. They provided the transcripts of VOIP. If the US "loses evidence" the case can fall apart. if that happens - this episode will be left as a kind of dysfunctional reminder of the cruelty of geopolitics.

Pakistan will have to bribe the US and UK in some way to wriggle out. That is not a happy route for them either.

My view? I think Pakistans nuclear facilities should first be taken out as a priority. The first aim should be that. No mater what unkil or anyone thinks - I don't think anyone will diisagree with that.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Jan 2009 07:38

vsudhir wrote:
WTF? Omar calling for outside mediation on J&K. And GoI will go along? Was that the reason we saw 62% polling oh-so-smooth recently?

He sure is under ISI scanner. He better watch what he says, and when he talks, he better watch what he says or else orders will be given from the Pindi military/ISI headquarters to LeT foot soldiers via VoIP.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Jan 2009 07:58

vsudhir wrote:

WTF? Omar calling for outside mediation on J&K. And GoI will go along? Was that the reason we saw 62% polling oh-so-smooth recently?
He sure is under ISI scanner. He better watch what he says, and when he talks, he better watch what he says or else orders will be given from the Pindi military/ISI headquarters to LeT foot soldiers via VoIP.

For all those who think democracy is the be-all, end-all, cure-all - can you see the fantastic potential of democracy always choosing the right representative and protector-of-interests of the people? We have a democratically elected GOI showing its wonderful response to the Mumbai attacks, and you have a "young" -hope for the future- leader, leading a majority of seats among all parties, and in an election in which 62% of the electorate participated - now talking about third party mediation? For all those putting their bets on the "young turks" I would really like to ask the question whether they don't really feel that Indian politicians need to be well over the 60's to know when to shut their mouth?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 16 Jan 2009 08:01

Gilani thanks Manmohan for New Year card, wishes

The card sent to Zardari featured a white dove with flowers in its beak

Pakis are swinging India by its tail.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 16 Jan 2009 08:01

JwalaMukhi wrote:ONe speculation is; probably one of the piglets is already in a Gitmo like base in US/Deigo Garcia. Identification parade?

Does anyone remember the 'British suspects' the news was abuzz with just after 26/11, and then that news just went blank. Also that ten suspects were already being arrested. Later that turned out to be just 1

And as for suspects to tried, the names include that of ex ISI-DG Nadeem Taj, possibly that is likes of whom we want to be tried in Pakistan itself.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Jan 2009 08:27

vsudhir wrote: WTF? Omar calling for outside mediation on J&K. And GoI will go along? Was that the reason we saw 62% polling oh-so-smooth recently?

Yes we want every nation to realise that PoK is ours and want its return with external help. We are doing nothing to aid Kashmris to unite.

Why should we be so unchankian?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jan 2009 08:49

brihaspati wrote:
He sure is under ISI scanner. He better watch what he says, and when he talks, he better watch what he says or else orders will be given from the Pindi military/ISI headquarters to LeT foot soldiers via VoIP.
For all those who think democracy is the be-all, end-all, cure-all - can you see the fantastic potential of democracy always choosing the right representative and protector-of-interests of the people? We have a democratically elected GOI showing its wonderful response to the Mumbai attacks, and you have a "young" -hope for the future- leader, leading a majority of seats among all parties, and in an election in which 62% of the electorate participated - now talking about third party mediation? For all those putting their bets on the "young turks" I would really like to ask the question whether they don't really feel that Indian politicians need to be well over the 60's to know when to shut their mouth?

Not really Jupiterji. UPA was formed after the elections to keep out the BJP as per their own statements. And it was cobbled by Anil Ambaani who flew into Lucknow and told Mulayam to stuff his aversion to Sonia Gandhi and line up. So the fatal flaw(hamartia for those with classical learning) is the loophole that allows coalition to be formed after elections so people dont know who or what they are voting for. I beleive the EC can rule that only coalitions that are formed before elections can contest. However till now every EC is a INC chamcha. NDA did not appoint any ECs of its choice.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Jan 2009 09:12

Not really Jupiterji. UPA was formed after the elections to keep out the BJP as per their own statements. And it was cobbled by Anil Ambaani who flew into Lucknow and told Mulayam to stuff his aversion to Sonia Gandhi and line up. So the fatal flaw(hamartia for those with classical learning) is the loophole that allows coalition to be formed after elections so people dont know who or what they are voting for. I beleive the EC can rule that only coalitions that are formed before elections can contest. However till now every EC is a INC chamcha. NDA did not appoint any ECs of its choice.

Ramanaji,
restricting coalitions to be consistent in time, could be argued to be against the principle of democracy. By the formality of elections, representatives represent primarily people/electorate of their constituency, and only secondarily their parties. Parties exist only virtually and indirectly within the legislature. It is this primacy of representing the electorate rather than parties, that will probably be successfully argued in the Supreme Court. And therefore, right to change coalitions amounting to "voting in a common platform within legislature" will be very difficult to remove. I may be wrong, but hasn't Anil Ambani recently been melting like butter and newly wed bride in the arms of Modi?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Jan 2009 09:25

narayanan wrote:Samuel, what would be the point of flying someone to NEWARK of all places, in January, to ask a few questions? Just curious...

If they just wanted her to meet rude Americans and pickpockets, don't u think there are enough in Mumbai and the American Consulate in Mumbai?

Also, what shape would a fisherwoman used to a Mumbai seaside routine be, after said trip in January Newark weather?

Maybe they flew her to Diego Garcia...

There is another possibility. American might have used fastest horse in the universe called Burack.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 16 Jan 2009 09:48

narayanan wrote: I was only kidding, but it DOES appear that the dilli billis are on vacation.

Where is the BJP on this whole mess. They agreed to co-operate with the Govt, but if the govt is not doing anything, does their agreement still hold?
There posture is marked with silence. This is their only chance to make capital out of this situation

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 16 Jan 2009 09:51

narayanan wrote:If they just wanted her to meet rude Americans and pickpockets, don't u think there are enough in Mumbai and the American Consulate in Mumbai?

Isn't the US consulate legally american territory? So if she was taken there, she is technically right in saying she was taken to US territory...perhaps that's what she was told too?

Shiv wrote:Shiv: "Aditya I want you to return my money and I demand that you send it to me with your wife" (This is two demands in one - you are guilty, and repay me wit money + visit from wife)

Shiv, kindly keep my wife out of this

, especially since i don't have one

While I do get your drift, you tend to underestimate TSP. They have time and again proved to be hard nuts to crack. They are not amateurs to fall into such a trap of subtleties.
What's more, GoI has not displayed enough capability to make one believe that they can play a subtle game and force TSP into making freudian slips.

The only reply you can expect is similar to:
Aditya: No money, no wife and Shiv stop being a pimp.

rahulranjan · Post by **rahulranjan** » 16 Jan 2009 11:15

Indian govt. is playing a big eye wash for the Indian public here. They are playing with sentiments of Indians by giving some or the other statements for public consumption to make them slowly forget the issue like they did during Kandhar, parliament attack and numerous attacks on cities.

There seems to be no plan. Govt always wag his tail before the British and US nad tells the public that any action first needs to be ratified by them.

They have brought huge shame and dishonor to the nation by continuously diluting the seriousness of the matter. The belief of the Govt. (and unfortunately rightly so) that with time, the scars on Indian mind (of Mumbai attack) will get diminished, people will get involved in their daily bread and butter routine and people’s belief that every thing works 'Bhagwan bharose' will continue.

Although Indian Defence forces have stood with the current constitutional fabric, an absence of Unified command and a strategic goal has prevented them to pressurize the government to take any action. Every recent actions that has got televised only shows the below par standard maintained in the preparedness. They cannot keep on saying that their indecisions and incapabilties have been always been because of the policitical leadership.

I strongly believe when a person sees a problem and you let it go as it is, although knowing that the current owner is not (cannot or will not) solve it and ultimately it will come to him as a bigger and complex issue is doing harm to the system and certenly not doing justice. He is not completely faithful and delivering the promises he has made to it. Indian armed forces fall in the same category. They have failed to show leadership in times of crisis and beyond. They forget and do not learn from a crisis and everytime escape with their favorite caption ' Political Leadership will decide'.

Our Armed forces should be reminded of their objectives:
• Primary: Preserve national interests and safeguard sovereignty, territorial integrity and unity of India against any external threats by deterrence or by waging war.
• Secondary: Assist Government agencies to cope with ‘proxy war’ and other internal threats and provide aid to civil authority when requisitioned for the purpose."

The above two objectives should be met irrespective of the kind of political leadership we have n the country. Current defense leaders should work towards coming up with policy changes that make the nation’s armed forces more independent in thinking towards it main objectives which are currently not being met to satisfacotry levels.

amardeep_s · Post by **amardeep_s** » 16 Jan 2009 11:19

And the plane was this BIG

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/2/2 ... n-the-tail

We meet Uddaiya at 7 am on Thursday--she is just bathed and is leisurely combing her hair-- but there is no missing the exhaustion. “It is so unpleasant to be attacked from all sides. The police are haranguing us--they even went to my daughter’s neighbour’s house at Virar, and then there is the media. So intrusive.”

And yet she agrees to talk to us. There is an eagerness to share her story. Uddaiya says that on November 27, her account of how she saw six men walk up from the beach, burdened with heavy carry-alls, and how she tried to chat with them, was aired on India TV. Soon after, three white men--``tall, big-built”--came to meet her. They were accompanied by an Indian man, the interpreter, whom she identifies as a certain Sudhakar --``short, dark, mustached with very curly hair”--and they wanted to speak to her about what she had seen.

The four men met her thrice through December and the first half of January, wanting more details, and then asked her whether she would go abroad with them for a couple of days. “ I had come to trust them, I wanted to help them, so I said ok.” Uddaiya had also given her statement to the Crime Branch which is investigating the terror case and says she had been questioned a couple of times by the Mumbai police. “The foreigners were very nice to me and I just told them that I’ll come provided they deposit me back home safely.” In preparation for her trip she was taken to a “big, air-conditioned hospital,” for medical tests. However, she cannot identify the hospital. She was told that she would be taken on Saturday. As her husband is admitted at St. George hospital and she has two young children at home who need looking after, she summoned her eldest daughter Seema to come and stay over for the next few days. She also packed a small suitcase, which she showed us, with two of her best sarees. However she waited all of Saturday and there was no sign of the foreigners.

On Sunday morning, at around 5 or 6 am, she says she got a phone call asking her to step out of her home without carrying anything “pretending that I was going to the toilet.”

Some distance away, a big van was waiting to pick her up. “I told them I had to meet my husband before we left, so they took me to St George where I told my husband that I’ll be back in a few days and then we went to the airport at Andheri where I was given a skirt, blouse and a scarf to change into. Then we got into a plane, it was white and blue and had a star on the tail. It was not a very big plane, there were some empty seats ahead of where I sat. In all there would been fifteen to twenty people on that plane. I got very nervous when it took off but after that I settled down and went to sleep.”

“When we landed it was night. It was a very big airport, they put me through some security check and then we were out. When we stepped out it was cold, quite cold, but not unbearably so. We quickly got into a car and drove off. The streets were not too crowded, not like Mumbai, and I saw several tall buildings like the World Trade Centre we have here. I was taken to a hotel. What a lovely room it was! And the bed was so soft and springy, but I must tell you that I slept on the floor, for that is what I am used to to. But before that I was fed dinner, it was non-Indian food, and I didn’t care for it.”

The next morning, Uddaiya says, she was taken to a building which was as far from the hotel as “Machchimaar Nagar is from Colaba” There we was taken to a room, where there must have been 30-40 people but at the centre was a big black man who asked question like what time did the terrorists land, what they looked like, what they wore, the colour of their back-packs, the time gap between their disembarkation and the first blast at Colaba, whether I knew that foreigners were being particularly targetted.”

Uddaiya who had several cups of coffee through this long session says there was a camera recording her and by the time she was taken back to the hotel it was almost dusk. “People were very kind to me and I was told that if required they would call me back.” By the time she reached the airport it was again dark. “Unlike the time I left Mumbai, when there was no waiting involved, I was taken to a large room and we had to wait for some hours. The aircraft in which I came back also was different. It was a larger plane, there was a woman in a saree aside from white air hostesses, serving us, and the aircraft was white with a red stripe.”

Home food at last

On the journey back she says the plane also halted somewhere for about half hour to and hour but she says she does not know which place it was. Uddaiya landed in Mumbai at around six p.m. on Tuesday evening and then taken to a hotel, “very fancy,” and where she was given Indian food. “The food took a really long time to come, the men who had accompanied me kept chatting, but when the food did come it was excellent.” It was at the hotel that after 48 hours Uddaiya changed back into her clothes, which she says she had washed in the “hotel in America.”

At around 11 p.m., her escorts called for a taxi, gave her Rs 500, and instructed him to drop her home to Colaba. “I came back, saw the police and press waiting and the mess began.”

Despite persistent questioning, she is unable to provide more details, names of the foreigners who escorted her or even the city she travelled to. She says she had the foreigners’ cards but when we ask her for it, all she can give us are the numerous visiting cards of journalists.
When asked about the promised money--her daughter had told this newspaper that Uddaiya had been promised $10,000--she said she had not seen any of it. “But they promised to call me again for further help,” she says.

However her description of the inside of an aircraft, the star (of David?) sign on the tailfin of a blue and white aircraft, and the way her suitcase had been packed point to a greater mystery.

The police have outrightly rejected her story, but this seems to be far from an open and shut case.

Tall and big built- Do we need NSN desk - Lahour, USA to find out more ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jan 2009 11:42

Pranab has surrendered to Pak!His ignominious surrender without doing battle is a national disgrace,as he has now done a cowardly "strategic retreat" by saying that the perpetrators of 26/11 and their masterminds can be tried in pak in a "fair trial"! Is he such an ignoramus? Has he not read what the journalists of Pak themselves say about their courts and the injustice meeted out because of threats? One of their well known journalists after 26/11 wanted Pak to hand over the guilty to India as they would never ever face a proper trial in Pak.Pranab here is parroting what David Milliband the hypocritical British Foreign Secv, said,that the trail must take place in Pak, while vociferously demanding that the alleged suspect in the murder of Russian defector Litvinenko should be extradited from Russia,whose laws prohibit such extradition of Russian citizens!One standard for the hypocritical Labour govt. in Britain,who shamelessly prostrate themselves before the Pak electorate ,seen here with Miliband pimping for Pak immigrant votes!

While one can understand the motives of this sleazy British pimp,David Miliband,Pranab parroting his tune is extraordinary,when just weeks ago he was breathing fire and thunder,keeping "all options open".It now appears from his latest statement that the only option he is keeping open is whether to lower his pants to Pak or open his fly! Some say that it was Pranab who sabotaged an Indian military reponse,OK'd by MMS, which was on the cards,by rushing to "No.10" in a state of high anxiety!