Questioning the Army's Methodologies

[RayC]

There was even the thought that all military personnel's pay and pension be with an Armed Forces Bank and that would generate funds for the Armed Forces private schemes as housing, educational institutions, hospitals etc and would also give employment to ex servicemen. Obviously, the govt was not too pleased since money means power and it was shot down!

wont comment on the other proposals of Gen Joshi, but this sure was pretty harebrained..So the Army would maintain its own banks, then its own manufacturing units, its own real estate company (to start with, for the Army housing!)!!! Suspiciously close to what Fauji foundation and thousands of other commercial enterprises spawned by the Pak Army - captured so lucidly by Ayesha Siddiqa in her book..Or the many commercial organisations run by the PLA..Or the Thai Military Bank run by the Thai Army..Most democracies (and "normal" countries) dont have their Armies run commercial enterprises. (Even Turkey privatised/ privatising its Army-owned enterprises as it prepares to qualify for EU)..

Apparently you are not aware of the functioning of the Pakistani Fauji Foundation or you are deliberately being obtuse. Gen Joshi harebrained?

Fauji Foundation (FF), a growth driven organization, is one of the largest conglomerates in Pakistan, with a strategically diversified investment portfolio in Fertilizer, Cement, Food, Power Generation, Gas Exploration, LPG marketing & distribution, Financial Services, Employment Services, and Security Services.

Fauji Foundation Holding Entities

Fully Owned Fauji Cereals, Foundation Gas, Fauji Sugar Mills, Fauji Corn Complex, Foundation University,Fauji Security Services, Overseas Employment Services, Experimental & Seed Multiplication Farm,

Associated Mari Gas Company Ltd., Fauji Cement Company Ltd., Pakistan Maroc Phosphere, S.A, Fauji Fertilizer Company Ltd., Fauji Fertilizer Bin Qasim Ltd., Foundation Securities (Pvt.) Ltd., Fauji Kabirwala Power Company Ltd., Fauji Oil Terminal & Distribution Company Ltd.

FF Businesses - http://www.fauji.org.pk/Webforms/FFBusiness.aspx?Id=93

Such a scheme was not Gen Joshi's plan i.e. to run the country's commerce and industry. His plan was to use the interest from the Army's pay and pension to fund housing, medical benefits, giving scholarships, giving loan to the personnel, open up institutions of educational excellence, organise legal and administrative help by hiring experts in law and administration for personnel who cannot complete their legal and property issues during the leave period etc. A self help scheme by which the Army would not have to beg the govt for every thing or be at the mercy of the bureaucratic munificence. Right now, to get a loan, one has to give collaterals and pay rates of interest to the banks. However, the Army Bank would have given loans with lower rates of interest and that would be a saving to the personnel and the sad situation of the current pay crisis would not have made such a huge impact on the morale as it is doing now!

This would make the Army an attractive and a respectable alternative and would not have led to the sorry state we have where there are few takers.

[somnath]

RayC Sir,

Running a Bank is not that simple - capture deposits in the form of salaries/pensions and give out "low cost" loans..If one wants to run a bank it has to be a large complicated operation. A lot of Armies have tried that - I have given some examples in the post (Thai Military Bank, Oyak Bank in Turkey, besides of course the Pak infrastructure)..They are all full fledged banks..My point is it isnt the Army's job to be doing this - and these things are a bit like a cascade, one enterprise leads to the justification for another - and therefore I referenced it to Ayesha Siddiqa's fine book, which captures the pitfalls for such a strategy for any Army.

PS: The Turkish are privatsiing their "Army" banks now - Oyak ws sold off to ING last year, they are looking to divest some of the other assets as well..

[RayC]

RayC Sir,

Running a Bank is not that simple - capture deposits in the form of salaries/pensions and give out "low cost" loans..If one wants to run a bank it has to be a large complicated operation. A lot of Armies have tried that - I have given some examples in the post (Thai Military Bank, Oyak Bank in Turkey, besides of course the Pak infrastructure)..They are all full fledged banks..My point is it isnt the Army's job to be doing this - and these things are a bit like a cascade, one enterprise leads to the justification for another - and therefore I referenced it to Ayesha Siddiqa's fine book, which captures the pitfalls for such a strategy for any Army.

PS: The Turkish are privatsiing their "Army" banks now - Oyak ws sold off to ING last year, they are looking to divest some of the other assets as well..

Please understand that the Bank would not be run by Army officers. It would be administered by people who are conversant in Banking and paid from the Army Bank itself.

It is not that I am not aware of ways of the ICS, IAS, IFS, historians, academicians, economists, Police etc. Such people exist in my family and I pick their brains since I am a knowledge seeker!

I have read Ayesha's book and I am conversant with the Fauji Foundation workings and have written about it too!

State within a State.

The ethos of the IA is not like the Pakistani Army or else India would not remained a democracy and I daresay, a vibrant democracy.

The way things are moving, it is scary. I cannot imagine dharnas by ex servicemen or returning of gallantry and other medals etc!

And with the standard and morals of the society lowering itself (including the Army) and with money being the main concern of existence of people, things can become dangerous!

What the Army requires is raising its self respect and if the govt is tardy over helping the same, the Army should take care of it themselves. And that was the aim of the General. He had seen this coming! A man of immense vision!

Today the meek govt can act 'bold', all because of the Cold Start concept which has given Pakistan cold sweat. Read the Pakistan reaction to Cold Start. All because of the vision of Gen Joshi! Harebrained, right?

Do you think that odd fish of a Pak PM is bleating because of the US? Not quite. He knows that we will make a sally deep enough and yet without giving him cause to press the nuclear button and should he do that, he is sent to Kingdom Come from both sides of his border!

I won't comment of foreign armies or its banking issues, but as far as the IA is concerned, where the govt has failed, we have always come to the rescue and so we are really all that inept!

[somnath]

RayC,

So The Army would "own" the bank? From where would the capital come from? Presumably the Army budget..Lets see how the numbers work out.About Salaries and pensions in a year would be about 50k croes (14k as pension and a conservative estimate of 36k as salaries)..So this Army Bank would (at the end of the first year), have a balance sheet of 25k crores (assuming half the money is left in the bank)...Against this "liability", the Army would create assets made up of "soft loans" to servicemen..that would be mostly unsecured loans, requiring at least 100% risk weightage (it should be higher, but lets leave it at that)..So 25k crores of assets - translates to 2,500 crores of Tier I capital..

and this only in one year. As time goes by, the size of the bank will keep on going up, requiring even more capital periodically, over and above any "retained" profits out of the operation...Is this how the defence budget is best utlised?

As I said, precisely becasue of the scale (and therefore the opportunity to make money for certain people), these enterprises spawn others, which in turn create more vested interests..the ethos of the Army is admirable, but it has been due to a number of factors - Gen Cariappa's starting philosphy included, AND the structural elements of the Indian polity that has kept the Army out of the morass that the Pak Army is in continuously..

[RayC]

RayC,

So The Army would "own" the bank? From where would the capital come from? Presumably the Army budget..Lets see how the numbers work out.About Salaries and pensions in a year would be about 50k croes (14k as pension and a conservative estimate of 36k as salaries)..So this Army Bank would (at the end of the first year), have a balance sheet of 25k crores (assuming half the money is left in the bank)...Against this "liability", the Army would create assets made up of "soft loans" to servicemen..that would be mostly unsecured loans, requiring at least 100% risk weightage (it should be higher, but lets leave it at that)..So 25k crores of assets - translates to 2,500 crores of Tier I capital..

and this only in one year. As time goes by, the size of the bank will keep on going up, requiring even more capital periodically, over and above any "retained" profits out of the operation...Is this how the defence budget is best utlised?

As I said, precisely becasue of the scale (and therefore the opportunity to make money for certain people), these enterprises spawn others, which in turn create more vested interests..the ethos of the Army is admirable, but it has been due to a number of factors - Gen Cariappa's starting philosphy included, AND the structural elements of the Indian polity that has kept the Army out of the morass that the Pak Army is in continuously..

Army Budget?

Really?

Do you really think the Army ever feels that the Govt will come to its rescue for its welfare schemes?

Heard of AWHO and are you aware it is funded from our salaries?

Someone stated that childrens education allce comes from the govt funds. One should know that all Officers contribute from their salary to a central fund from which disbursement is made.

It is not General Cariappa and his philosophy. It is the legacy of the British, which has been nurtured over the years by each and every officer and Regiment!

As far as unsecured loans, please understand, the Army Act is not as lax and can be manipulated like the civil laws!

Read the Army Act on Unbecoming Conduct and the Act on Commissions and Omission prejudicial to good order and military discipline.

Also note that anyone can be dismissed without giving any reason by the President i.e. indirectly, the Army!!

I am not a banker nor a finance man. How much would the pay and pension of the military make? And remember, many are exs employed in the civil sector and earn a handsome salary!

[somnath]

about Cold Start, am not so sure whether thats a "done deal" yet. Either from a doctrinal perspective, or from an equipment fit out perspective. I havent read too much about the Pakistanis "sweating in their pants" due to Cold Start..Its a good start, some of the reorg has probably happened in the Army ORBAT. But to start with there are too many moving parts yet - it calls for integrated air assets - the Air Force is loathe to commit anything similar (and there are many specific gaps like this).

Most importantly, I am not at all sure that the govt has factored Cold Start in as something that they are absolutely confident would be "below" the nuke threshold. If it were, I am pretty sure that after 26/11 something would have been actioned. So near the elections, so much public anger, it took an enormous amount of political capital for the govt to pretty much (at least in public eye) do nothing..

Maybe in days to come the policymakers wouild look at Cold Start more, and to what extent it ingrates with our probable political objectives. And also the ORBAT accompanying - currently its very much WIP and the jury IMHO is out on its efficicy.

[somnath]

RayC,

So The Army would "own" the bank? From where would the capital come from? Presumably the Army budget..Lets see how the numbers work out.About Salaries and pensions in a year would be about 50k croes (14k as pension and a conservative estimate of 36k as salaries)..So this Army Bank would (at the end of the first year), have a balance sheet of 25k crores (assuming half the money is left in the bank)...Against this "liability", the Army would create assets made up of "soft loans" to servicemen..that would be mostly unsecured loans, requiring at least 100% risk weightage (it should be higher, but lets leave it at that)..So 25k crores of assets - translates to 2,500 crores of Tier I capital..

and this only in one year. As time goes by, the size of the bank will keep on going up, requiring even more capital periodically, over and above any "retained" profits out of the operation...Is this how the defence budget is best utlised?

As I said, precisely becasue of the scale (and therefore the opportunity to make money for certain people), these enterprises spawn others, which in turn create more vested interests..the ethos of the Army is admirable, but it has been due to a number of factors - Gen Cariappa's starting philosphy included, AND the structural elements of the Indian polity that has kept the Army out of the morass that the Pak Army is in continuously..

Army Budget?

Really?

Do you really think the Army ever feels that the Govt will come to its rescue for its welfare schemes?

Heard of AWHO and are you aware it is funded from our salaries?

Someone stated that childrens education allce comes from the govt funds. One should know that all Officers contribute from their salary to a central fund from which disbursement is made.

It is not General Cariappa and his philosophy. It is the legacy of the British, which has been nurtured over the years by each and every officer and Regiment!

As far as unsecured loans, please understand, the Army Act is not as lax and can be manipulated like the civil laws!

Read the Army Act on Unbecoming Conduct and the Act on Commissions and Omission prejudicial to good order and military discipline.

Also note that anyone can be dismissed without giving any reason by the President i.e. indirectly, the Army!!

I am not a banker nor a finance man. How much would the pay and pension of the military make?

I keep reiterating, runnign a welfare scheme or a credit union is very different from trying to run a bank..Its like someone who has only fired a toy gun trying to operate a T90 tank! If your suggestion is that Amry officers and men will subscribe to the share capital of the bank - well, will that be a compulsary commitment? And keep contributing to the capital as the balance sheet keeps growing? How are they going to be paid back, given that the bank (presumably) is not going to be listed? Please see the maths that I posted in the earlier post..

about the British legacy, I agree. But then the Pak Army too had the same legacy! Its the political structures post independence and the path laid down by the initial crop of leaders (in the Army) that ensured that IA didnt go down the PA path!

[RayC]

I keep reiterating, runnign a welfare scheme or a credit union is very different from trying to run a bank..Its like someone who has only fired a toy gun trying to operate a T90 tank! If your suggestion is that Amry officers and men will subscribe to the share capital of the bank - well, will that be a compulsary commitment? And keep contributing to the capital as the balance sheet keeps growing? How are they going to be paid back, given that the bank (presumably) is not going to be listed? Please see the maths that I posted in the earlier post..

about the British legacy, I agree. But then the Pak Army too had the same legacy! Its the political structures post independence and the path laid down by the initial crop of leaders (in the Army) that ensured that IA didnt go down the PA path!

I don't subscribe to the mentality that one must depend on 'handouts' and be thereafter grateful for small mercies. Neither do most army men, be they officers or men.

Communists are the only ones who believe in govt handouts and like sheep want a womb to the tomb care system!

Even they have realised how stupid and lethargic an attitude it is and how it ruins progress and the very essence of being a human being!

Our mentality, thanks to our training is to use the resources, be resourceful and improve the situation and the organisation. It maybe noted that inspite of huge handicaps and lack of resources, we innovate with imagination and we deliver; better than even those who are tasked and organised to deliver what we deliver, and they are unable to do so!

Those who are bankers and those who are work with figures like auditors and CFOs of multinationals and the like are, mesmerised by figures and most lose their initiative and imagination. They are what is know as the 'boikhata' types. These rigid rule bound people in Bengal are called 'porua pathas (educated goats)'. The US has collapsed thanks to these type of people ( I saw Obama's first Press conference), including those who managed the statutory organisations of govt and some are rank fudgers like Pricewaterhouse Cooper.

I have no idea of figures, but I have some idea of concepts. One must understand that the IA units gets funds and apart from pay and pension, there is canteen and regimental money. There is the Army's own funds that are contributed to. I have no idea as to what that would add up to. To believe that such a visionary General would not have visioned the issue is an insult to injury! The Army and even the Nation has much to be grateful to him. The fact that military and even civilian children are not beholden to the Central govt for the cosmetic reservations for education for their wards, is because of his vision. Self sufficiency was his credo and not holding out the begging bowl. Of course, if begging is a virtue that you advocate, then the General was wrong.

It may interest you to know that Syndicate Bank hold maximum of Army funds and they are jocularly called the Army Bank.

As for Pakistan, it is time to read up rather than chuck red herrings.

When was the Constitution written?

After nine years of efforts, Pakistan was successful in framing a constitution in 1956 and practically immediately it saw its demise as a workable institution. It has seen more than half its life as a military dictatorship. Therefore, your comparison of the Indian ethos as comparable to that of Pakistan is not only flawed, but odious and an insult to people of India.

But of course, if you feel that Indians are as democratically handicapped in thought and deed as Pakistan, what can be said of you?

And of course, since you know of the Indian Army ethos more than me (and my father was also in the army and so he had groomed me adequately of his times including what it was in the British Indian Army), I give way to you. I am sure you claim to be older than my father and his peers too!

As far as fighting a war, you have no idea of it and therefore, I am handicapped to explain it to you.

If you understood as to why Pakistan always had the initial success and in the final analysis lost out, you would understand the impact of the Cold Start. Suffice it to say that Pakistan has lost the initiative that the tardy and cumbersome Mobilisation caused!

The politicians finally understood it when their bacon got the feel of the flame (did not cook the bacon unfortunately since none perished) in the Parliament attack. They are so weak that they cannot even bring the perpetrators to book!

Since you are comparing the Indian Army with Pakistan and its Army, Pakistan Army is calling the shot even in the Mumbai carnage. Compare it with the Indian Army and it has nothing to do with Carriappa. We are of a different mindset! And to put you at ease, we are proud of it and should I say, more proud of our democratic institution and philosophy than most of you!

We, in the military practice it. We have a Sainik Sammelan every month and records kept. The people air their views and grievances. Answers have to be given and the next Sammelan must have the results read out. Does any other organisation do so? Any Bank or Multinational or a Public Sector Undertaking? Democracy is our credo, even if our discipline is strict!

These are reviewed by the Brigade Commander and so there can be no eyewash or fudge!

In India, the panchayat is an ancient tradition. Is it so in Pakistan?

Do you really feel that India is such a lousy country as to be compared to a failed state that never took off in the first place as Pakistan?

[somnath]

RayC,

I am not fundamentally contradicting you on most of the points - though you are drawing different conclusions. I am not saying that the Indian and Pk ethos are the same - in fact they are different. But they were not "born" diffrent, gievn their identical "parentage", the diffrences arose due to the actions of the initial crop of leaders, both civilian and military - your example of the Pak Constituion is pertinent to prove the point.

But your point on "self sufficiency" is more difficult to understand. By that logic, every bank should also run a Tech company, given the amount of technology banks use. Or every software company should run a PC manufacturing unit, as well as an electricity generation plant, or a telecoms company, and so on....I have no axe to grind against Gen Joshi, he might have been a smart general, but I am afraid running a Bank is not an Army's job, howsoever "imaginative" it might be..Your rant against the bankers apart (we are these days the favourite whipping boys of everybody!), the fact is that the best talent in the world even today works for Corporate America, and increasingly Corporate Asia - just look at the number of policy makers in Washington from Corporate America...Not just today, but for a long time..We can talk more about the pitfalls of runnign a bank, but I suspect it wont make a diff..

But all of this is OT..More interesting is the question of Cold Start...It is interesting that you think the "mobilisation" was at the root of Pakistan's failures in the battlefied..I would put it as lack of strategy.. In 1965, they thought Ops Grand Slam would result in an uprising in Kashmir - first fundamental mistake in assumption. Second they thought India wouldnt broaden the conflict aceross the IB - second fundamental mistake in assumption. One would suppose their ORBAT and mobilisation would have been as per their strategy, and that itself was flawed..Not to say India's was (tactically) much better - Gen Chaudhuri was only too prepared to retreat and give up pretty much the whole of Punjab - it took Gen Hurbaksh Singh to put his foot down...But at least we surprised them in terms of our "grand strategy"...

In 1971, they thought the "defence of the east is in the west", and pretty much fully alienated the bangladeshis..We again, surprised them by runnign a first class intel ops first, and then went hell for leather for the East, making only a holding posture on the West..

Kargil, again they assumed that we wont escalate the conflict to conventional levels..we surprised them by doing exactly that, bringing in heavy arty, AF etc..They thought we would be tempted to cross the LOC and invite instant international mediation - we refused to that either...So again, we had the right "grand strategy", their assumptions were faulty...

That is my take - but open to others for surre.

[RayC]

RayC,

I am not fundamentally contradicting you on most of the points - though you are drawing different conclusions. I am not saying that the Indian and Pk ethos are the same - in fact they are different. But they were not "born" diffrent, gievn their identical "parentage", the diffrences arose due to the actions of the initial crop of leaders, both civilian and military - your example of the Pak Constituion is pertinent to prove the point.

But your point on "self sufficiency" is more difficult to understand. By that logic, every bank should also run a Tech company, given the amount of technology banks use. Or every software company should run a PC manufacturing unit, as well as an electricity generation plant, or a telecoms company, and so on....I have no axe to grind against Gen Joshi, he might have been a smart general, but I am afraid running a Bank is not an Army's job, howsoever "imaginative" it might be..Your rant against the bankers apart (we are these days the favourite whipping boys of everybody!), the fact is that the best talent in the world even today works for Corporate America, and increasingly Corporate Asia - just look at the number of policy makers in Washington from Corporate America...Not just today, but for a long time..We can talk more about the pitfalls of runnign a bank, but I suspect it wont make a diff..

But all of this is OT..More interesting is the question of Cold Start...It is interesting that you think the "mobilisation" was at the root of Pakistan's failures in the battlefied..I would put it as lack of strategy.. In 1965, they thought Ops Grand Slam would result in an uprising in Kashmir - first fundamental mistake in assumption. Second they thought India wouldnt broaden the conflict aceross the IB - second fundamental mistake in assumption. One would suppose their ORBAT and mobilisation would have been as per their strategy, and that itself was flawed..Not to say India's was (tactically) much better - Gen Chaudhuri was only too prepared to retreat and give up pretty much the whole of Punjab - it took Gen Hurbaksh Singh to put his foot down...But at least we surprised them in terms of our "grand strategy"...

In 1971, they thought the "defence of the east is in the west", and pretty much fully alienated the bangladeshis..We again, surprised them by runnign a first class intel ops first, and then went hell for leather for the East, making only a holding posture on the West..

Kargil, again they assumed that we wont escalate the conflict to conventional levels..we surprised them by doing exactly that, bringing in heavy arty, AF etc..They thought we would be tempted to cross the LOC and invite instant international mediation - we refused to that either...So again, we had the right "grand strategy", their assumptions were faulty...

That is my take - but open to others for surre.

Somnath,

What parentage? True it was from one country, but the mentality was totally different. The world was one – of the same parentage. But is the mentality and philosophy of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc same? Flawed logic!

The issue is mentality!

I am not sure of Banks, but I am sure of the Indian Army. When we found that the govt would give no funds for housing, we used ours to build the same. Self sufficiency! To quote Obama as of his Press Conf today, to act is more positive than not to act!

Your example of a Bank, IT industry is again flawed. By the way, UTI has it own housing for its staff! General Bipin Joshi’s plan was not to run electric generation, but to ensure there is funds where we don’t go begging to the olalala bureaucrats and kowtow for things that is ours! Something wrong there?

Again you are a being a balkikhal chap! Army did not want to run its bank with its personnel. It was to be run by experts who would be paid commensurate to the market. The Army would not run it.

OK, so you are a banker! Hold on to your job. Tough days ahead. Corporate America? Ask Obama. He knows more than me! He is still fire and brimstone against this Corporate fraud who call themselves as Bankers. Are you a banker?

Cold Start is not an answer to Op Grand Slam and I see no connection. Let’s not get too enamoured by Harbakh or any other. Let us analyse. God has given us the ability.

Sadly, you understand too little of the Army and its operations and so you draw your interesting conclusions including on Bangladesh.

It is most ridiculous to think that Kargil was escalated. We did not even enter Pakistan!

Christ! All are 'experts' and yet they can confuse those who served!

What is heavy arty?

BTW, Banks can outsource. Indian Army can't till funds are allocated after a whole lot of kowtowing. Banks kowtow? Since you are in Singapore, where the Chinese ensure you understand their culture and their way of life and follow it unless you want to be in jail, you will surely understand what is 'kowtow'. You all do it daily!

[somnath]

RayC,

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) you bring up too many issues at the same time - so it gets diffcult sometimes to discuss on a point!

Re parentage - I dont think there was any difference in the parentage of the Indian and Pak armies from a "mentality or philosophy" perspective. They were both officered by the Sandhurst trained crowd. What made the difference with time was how the leaders (especially political) drove the respective socities forward.anyway, this is way OT...

Re runnign a Bank, please read my earlier posts. Forget "staffing" the bank, there is a certain amount of capital one needs to deploy just to start a Bank. And thge capital requirements keep going up as the balance sheet size increases. I gave some ball park calculations on the kind of capital that might be required - any idea how the army would have funded the kind of capital required to set up a bank?

Re self sufficiency - India tried (as economic policy) somethign similar in the 60s and 70s - with fairly disastrous consequences..Ever heard of the theory of "core competence"? It is a Harvard Business Review classic - authored by (among two) an Indian, CK Prahlad!

A lot of companies did have their own housing - most of them have cut back completely over the last few years....The concept is the same - none of these companies were in the business of constructing and mantaining housing colnies!

I did not make any connection to Cold Start and ops Grand Slam. I was making the link between what you said was a "mobilisation" problem with all of Pak's campaigns...I am not saying I am right, just expressing my POV..Based on what I read and understand (from sources like the official history of the '65 war, or RD Pradhan's book, or Cap Amrinder Singh's accounts on some of the battles)...I am open to knowing other perspectives, which is why I am here!

About Kargil - absolutely it was "escalated". We use the Air Force, we used heavy arty (artillery), we mobilised the Navy..We escalated it beyond what Pakistan expected when it started..At least this is sometjhing a lot of analysts, including Pakistani ones, agree on..

I would ignore your comments about me as a banker and "holding on to my job" - its unbecoming of you..

Lastly, about Singapore, well it isnt a Chinese country at all..the President of Singapore is an ethnci Indian! Ditto for a number of cabinet ministers..In fact they are quite wary of the Chinese - why do you think they exercise so heavily with India? I assume you havent been to Singapore, hence your (mis)conceptions about kowtowing..

[rohitvats]

@Somnath: Let me take the liberty of pointing out what RayC Sir was saying. To quote what he said

If you understood as to why Pakistan always had the initial success and in the final analysis lost out, you would understand the impact of the Cold Start. Suffice it to say that Pakistan has lost the initiative that the tardy and cumbersome Mobilisation caused!

I think what he was trying to say is that PA always had the upper hand wrt dashing to the border in case of crisis. The main reason is their cantonments are located very close to the border which allows them to reach their jumping point that much faster. Ironic as it may seem, their lack of “Strategic Depth” has been of great help to them.

To give an example, as per the UN Cease Fire terms, there is a cap on the number and nature of troops which can be stationed in the J&K on both sides especially armor and Air Force assets. While this is a big disadvantage for us, it is big boon for PA. The southernmost stretch of land in POK is quite narrow. The PA can maintain strong mechanized forces just outside the POK stretch in Pakistan proper. These have then used for attack on the Jammu and Akhnoor sector. Just look up the location of Kharian (HQ of 6th Armored Division – part of Mangla based I Corps) and it’s proximity to the Sambha –Jammu belt and Chamb, the scene of bitter fighting in the previous wars. Now compare this with the location of Indian Strike Corps elements.

Another important point to remember is that Pakistan has much better lateral lines of communication as compared to India. This has allowed PA to switch troops between sectors and reinforce the areas under pressure.

It is to negate this advantage that PA has that Cold Start Doctrine becomes extremely important. Courtesy the mobilization and orientation of forces (especially the Armored Divisions) in 2002 and the Cold Start doctrine, the PA shifted the Bahawalpur based 31Corps to Pano Aqil

[Aditya G]

Can the TA commisioned officers stem the shortage? There are cases of TA officers being embodied for years on an end.

[RayC]

RayC,

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately!) you bring up too many issues at the same time - so it gets diffcult sometimes to discuss on a point!

Re parentage - I dont think there was any difference in the parentage of the Indian and Pak armies from a "mentality or philosophy" perspective. They were both officered by the Sandhurst trained crowd. What made the difference with time was how the leaders (especially political) drove the respective socities forward.anyway, this is way OT...

Re runnign a Bank, please read my earlier posts. Forget "staffing" the bank, there is a certain amount of capital one needs to deploy just to start a Bank. And thge capital requirements keep going up as the balance sheet size increases. I gave some ball park calculations on the kind of capital that might be required - any idea how the army would have funded the kind of capital required to set up a bank?

Re self sufficiency - India tried (as economic policy) somethign similar in the 60s and 70s - with fairly disastrous consequences..Ever heard of the theory of "core competence"? It is a Harvard Business Review classic - authored by (among two) an Indian, CK Prahlad!

A lot of companies did have their own housing - most of them have cut back completely over the last few years....The concept is the same - none of these companies were in the business of constructing and mantaining housing colnies!

I did not make any connection to Cold Start and ops Grand Slam. I was making the link between what you said was a "mobilisation" problem with all of Pak's campaigns...I am not saying I am right, just expressing my POV..Based on what I read and understand (from sources like the official history of the '65 war, or RD Pradhan's book, or Cap Amrinder Singh's accounts on some of the battles)...I am open to knowing other perspectives, which is why I am here!

About Kargil - absolutely it was "escalated". We use the Air Force, we used heavy arty (artillery), we mobilised the Navy..We escalated it beyond what Pakistan expected when it started..At least this is sometjhing a lot of analysts, including Pakistani ones, agree on..

I would ignore your comments about me as a banker and "holding on to my job" - its unbecoming of you..

Lastly, about Singapore, well it isnt a Chinese country at all..the President of Singapore is an ethnci Indian! Ditto for a number of cabinet ministers..In fact they are quite wary of the Chinese - why do you think they exercise so heavily with India? I assume you havent been to Singapore, hence your (mis)conceptions about kowtowing..

Somnath,

I don't raise many issues. Would it not be preferable to check you raises various issues. The parentage issue is yours, not mine.

Let's get down to basics. We are all Indians and yet the communities that make up India do not display the same characteristics! Neither do the religions. My experience has been that if I asked a Muslim worker (to know which language I should use so that he is comfortable and understands) if he is a Bihari or a Bengali, he said he was a Muslim, as if that was his regional identity!! Yet ask that to any other worker, he will tell you his regional identity! So, one cannot use a generalisation to equate and hence to say a Pakistani Army will react the same way as the Indian Army is flawed. Islam is powerful an elixir! Interact and you will understand. Why was Mamta Banerjee different to Modi over the Nano - a prestigious project? Why did that idiot Jyoti Basu make Bengal and Calcutta, the once commercial capital of India into a barren land?

Ask Indian PsW how the Pakistani treated them and then ask the Pakistani PsW as to how the Indians treated them. You will understand the difference.

Ayub Khan was born in the village of Rehana in Haripur District, NWFP into a family of the Tareen tribe, the first child of the second wife of Mir Dad Khan, who was a Risaldar-Major (the senior most non-commissioned rank) in Hodson's Horse, a cavalry regiment of the Royal Indian Army. He was accepted into the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst. Pure blooded Koi Hai and yet he was the first Pakistani General to have a coup and then he self appointed himself as a Field Marshall! That much for the British traditions being upheld by the Sandhurst crowd!

I will be frank, I am not a type who is enamoured by foreign templates. So, what an American has to state while worth reading, does not make me feel that it is the be all and end all of a situation. The application must be as is suited to India and Indians know India best.

Heard of the success of the Japanese business system? The all encompassing 'family'?
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=B1k- ... &ct=result

Since you do not know of the Army funds available, including those given by the govt such as Imprest, etc, you will not know of the capital available. These are parked in nationalised banks and utilised as per requirement and rules. If these were parked in an Army Bank, it would be quite a sum!

I cannot speak of India and self sufficiency. I hope you remember what Rajiv Gandhi had said about how much of money actually reaches the man and the project! I am sure that corruption is not that high in the armed forces, even if you desire it to be so!

To understand war, you have to understand the importance of a 'threat in being'. The IAF in Kargil was hardly any offensive way of using the air power. The Navy had to be ready. So was the remainder Army. That is hardly 'escalation'.

There was no heavy artillery used. Merely, the Bofors. Hardly heavy, yet very effective. And good old Kulwinder used them well!

Are you a banker? You have been rather close chested on that issue. If you are a banker or a financial person, I regret having hurt your sensibilities, but the truth is the truth! My immediate family has bankers and CFOs of multinationals and I daresay, it is impressive even though they haul in hefty salaries!

Just to put you at ease, I am no Slumdog Millionaire. I don't live in Slum, and though not a millionaire, just eke an existence on a paltry pension. No savings either, because of 'Sandhurst ethos' ! - officers don't handle money! However, an officer has to live like an officer!

Sadly for you, I have visited Singapore many a time since my daughter lived there - next to Orchard Road if you wish (That should speak for itself as to what financial status I have observed). My nephew is also there (again with his own flat in a dandy place with an all glass bedroom on the 14th floor). A great city. It would worthwhile for you to recall that there is a huge controversy on in Singapore as to why the Premier should only be of Chinese descent and the Minister Mentor had nothing worthwhile to add.

The ethos of Singapore is totally Chinese. Read Legalism and the Han culture mindset and you will understand. I also follow China and the Chinese closely.

Neither Singapore nor Malaysia is new to me.

You may feel Army people are dumb, but to tell the truth, we are not totally dumb even if you all feel that you are the sole bright sparks of Indian society!

Unlike you where you can rest on your laurels being from IIMs (believing that you are from the IIM) having joined an organisation and attend a few workshops and seminars of a few days and attend cocktails and dinners, we have to slog in prolonged courses in a variety of subjects to include international relationships, economy, governance and what is worse, pass tests at ripe old age to be considered as qualified! So, no poodle faking is allowed! Or a paid holiday!

[Sanju]

Ray Sir,

A pleasure to read your riposte! Actually one tends to learn a lot from these posts!

Regards,
Sanju

[RayC]

Ray Sir,

A pleasure to read your riposte! Actually one tends to learn a lot from these posts!

Regards,
Sanju

Thanks Sanju,

I too relax in an armchair today!

Getting a feeling that I am getting obsolete!

[ASPuar]

About Kargil - absolutely it was "escalated". We use the Air Force, we used heavy arty (artillery), we mobilised the Navy..We escalated it beyond what Pakistan expected when it started..At least this is sometjhing a lot of analysts, including Pakistani ones, agree on..

Oho! So, Pakistan invades Indian territory, kills Indian troops on a recce mission, and is lodged in positions which give it commanding heights over a strategic highway, vital to the defense of J&K... and it is we who are the escalators?

Are you aware, what the cost in human life in clearing those bunkers would have been, had the air force not been called in, had artillery not been used?

[ASPuar]

Can the TA commisioned officers stem the shortage? There are cases of TA officers being embodied for years on an end.

Most TA officers who are embodied for years on end do it out of choice. Officers in the category you have enumerated can ask to be embodied for long periods of time. This gives them, if they desire, the ability to serve as army officers for longer.

[ramana]

Folks the arguements are going on. Please dont report those you dont agree with. The truth will come out and emerge victorious.

Satyameva jayate!

[somnath]

@ Rohitvats,

The correlation between Cold Start and mobilisation speed is well taken. However, am not so sure that the placement of our Strike Corps is a "situational disadvantage". I would presume that the placement of the Strike Corps has been a matter of deliberate strategy, both political as well as military. It was pertinent, at some pioint in time, and now is surely a hindrance - hence Cold start is a good begining in terms of a discussion (though as I said, it is very very far from being a done deal - both "doctrinally" as well as in terms of equipment fit out)...

the UN restrictions in Kashmir are a joke - just like UN mandates/operations anywhere. The UNMOGIP simply doesnt have the infrastructure to monitor and certify anything on the ORBAT att all.. I would be very surprised if either party took them seriously..the chicken's neck area is a geographical weakness on our side - but defence against that is the entire netowrk of DCBs and heavy artillery concentration..And we have done some extensive work there..

Back to Cold start - it is to preempt Paki mobilisation. I would also say it is more to preempt international mobilisation of opinion against a war and inflict damage on Pakistan before the same finally kicks in. Most importantly it is searching for the "space" belwo the nuke threshold..However, the political leadership is obviously not confident enough of the last factor - else it would have been used this time around, given the immense public pressure...

But really the question was on the Pakis mobilising quicker than us..Well, I would say its a mixed bag.. They did, in 1965 spring a surprise..But we did the same in 1971...they did spring a surprise in Kargil, we did pretty much the same in 1984 in Siachen..So IMHO it has been about political objectives and how robust the plan was to meet them rather than any intrinsic ability of the Pak Army to mobilise quicker..

ASPuar, in your fury, you are simply not reading! You make it sound as if escalation is a four letter word I am using. Look at the scenario - at the end, the Pakis ended up with having a light infantry force (with light arty) facing up to the AF, heavy arty and pretty much anything that we could bring to bear..So we escalated, rightly so..they had expected our response to remain at a much lower level (certainly not bringing in the AF)...


RayC, I am surprised by your constant allusion to your relations and your knowledge of things like "financial position and status", your relations in various other places etc..How are they germane to this discussion? I am not embarrassed to be a banker - they only employ the very best in international banks...But surely statements like "hold on to your job" are in poor taste...cetrainly not "officer like"..

Obviously given your view of bankers, its no use trying to explain how complex it is to set up and run a bank, just in terms of the capital required to start with...Rajiv Gandhi's references to "15 paisa out of 100" is completely out of place in terms of setting up a bank..

How are Japanese business models relvant here? Or am I missing something? BTW, the Japanese business model is not about "family", the key take-aways have been concepts like Kaizen, Kanban...In fact these days the Japs are moving to a more American modelof corporate governance - the CEO of Sony is a non-Jap!

about Singapore, since you have been here, I am surprised how you came to the conclusion that people need to "kowtow" to Chinese culture...the President is an Indian, and about 10% of population as well..about Chinese being the PM, it is a complex issue..A lot of countries grapple with the racial question, must say Singapore manages it much better than a lot of others...Even in India, we are uncomfortable with a "foreign born" becoming the PM - by modern European concepts of catholicity, that would also be termed as racist! So it is a complex issue, certainly not something that can be termed as kowotowing..

So you think Bofors (and the Grad 21) are not heavy arty? Do we have anything "heavier" in the IA?

Lastly, your point on Muslims is quite stereotypical..the existance of Bangladesh shows that language is a far stronger centripetal force than religion...India and Pak (at least the militaries) started off in similar veins - but diverged quickly because of the differential mquality of (most importantly civilina) leadership that was on offer....There are lots of books that are good references to this (MJ Akbar, Bipin Chandra, Stanley wolpert, Patrick French) - how the two nations diverged after independence in terms of their destineis.....Also Steve Cohen's wonderful account of the Pak Army...

[Surya]

Lets not shut somnath up - he may irritate at times but he is prodding in interesting places

on the other hand

Does any US based member really belive this has already happened?? It may happen - but thats a diff thing and at that point am pretty sure there will be not much gloating because a lot of other countries will get sucked along

The US has collapsed thanks to these type of people ( I saw Obama's first Press conference),

As for this

Heard of the success of the Japanese business system? The all encompassing 'family'?

Not sure in what context it is mentioned?? Is the assumption that system is somehow caring for the family and is better suited to India??

Somehow it seems to be the trend that MBAs, Bankers, marketing types are all idiots - because all the screw ups around are happening due to them - based on that all Military personnel should be graded on the lines of Mushy and other tin pot generals


So instead of spinning into Singapore and kowtowing and other assorted diversions - lets pick one clean discussion point

The Issue of the Army managing its personnel's finance needs by indirectly or directly managing a bank\credit union whatever.

[Mohan G]

The Issue of the Army managing its personnel's finance needs by indirectly or directly managing a bank\credit union whatever.

I don't have very many positive words to say about Fund Managers and Bank Managers, however in the context of above question I do not think it is a good idea for government organizations to get into providing loan services to their employees.

Late Sudip Banerjee, who just passed away, ex-Secretary in the Human Resources Development Ministry, and a left-leaning poet and intellectual in his own right, did the right thing when he was Principal Secretary Finance in Government of Madhya Pradesh. The state government used to provide soft loans for house building to state government employees. He got rid of that provision; instead a deal was worked out with a leading public sector bank (after calling for bids) to provide such loans to employees at a discounted rate. The Government held out assurances to make payments from the salary of the employee directly to the bank in case of default on payment of loan installments. Not only that, the existing house building loan portfolio of the government was also sold to the bank.

This meant the government was free from one unnecessary burden, especially in an age where getting bank loans for salaried people is no longer difficult.

IMHO Government agencies should concentrate on their core tasks, and leave such auxiliaries to people in the private sector who are best competent to deal with them. And the government agencies (for example the Army in this case) can work out some mutually beneficial deals (that they can revise later, if need be) with the private players rather than try and do everything themselves.

[somnath]

Providing soft loans to employees again is a very different proposition to creating a structure which accepts "deposits" in some form..structurally any instituion that accepts deposits AND creates loans on the "asset side" would be subject to very very stringent regulatory capital norms - either a bank or an NBFC...Its simply not worth any organisation's while, not to say its beyond most organisations' monetary capcities..

[Mohan G]

^ True.

All I am saying is that government organizations should focus on their core responsibilities and if there are some tasks that can be done more efficiently by the private sector (including banks) then they should not do them. Ideally each task or chore the organization does should be reviewed periodically to see if it is needed and if yes, are there alternative methods to do it better.

Of course it also means government should not take up other specialized jobs that private agencies are doing well.

Usually I find the economic concepts such opportunity costs, total cost to organization, and financial efficiency are not very well understood or followed in government.

About operating a military-controlled bank for providing services to serving and ex-servicemen, this idea seems to contain too many operational problems (In theory, there shouldn't be any legal problem in opening such a bank.) to be viable, effective, and efficient. Then there are issues about the desirability of increasing military's non-core activities in the 'civilian' sector.

[RayC]

The Doctrine of the Cold Start is already in place and it has been practiced. The glitches have been addressed and rectified. If the military is satisfied, it is a bit odd that those who will not be involved in fighting on the front should so authoratively comment on the issue that it is still in the nascent form! The Doctrine was set out by Gen Joshi. The then DGMO, Lt Oberoi has explained the Doctrine in an open forum i.e. a magazine titled “Salute to the Indian Soldier” and I have posted it on this forum. Surprising that people seemed to have missed it.

The concept in simple terms is to negate the advantage Pakistan has because their troops and cantonments are close to the border and so in the event of a war, they seize the initiative. By reorganising what were the defensive formations and giving them more ‘teeth’, this teeth can be set into action immediately to form a shallow bridgeheads, so to say, from where, as and when the Strike Formations arrive, they can be launched. Since the bridgehead would be on a broad front, the option will be many and the enemy will be kept guessing and would not be able to commit its reservation formations.

Further, it allows the Indian military strategic surprise, which the tardy mobilisation of yore denied.

It is essential to note that no matter what the political objectives are, getting to be the first of the block is absolutely essential for the military or what in military terminology is called ‘seizing the initiative’.

The UNMOGIP exists in J&K only in form. It is no longer recognised by India and so is moribund. India’s stand is that the delineation of the Line of Control after 1971 had rendered the UNMOGIP redundant. Pakistan recognises it and has used it many a time, but to no avail since India does not recognises the UNMOGIP. They still have stations in J&K with their HQ at Srinagar and they are confined to their HQs and Stations.

Escalation is not a four letter word. One has to understand what escalation is. Sabre rattling or a nuclear threat warning is not escalating. Boots and equipment on the ground is and more so when it crosses the Rubicon.

We must be conversant with the terminology. Misusing terminology causes disconnect and confusion. I am surprised to know that in Kargil there was heavy artillery. I surely would be pleased if I could be educated, since I was there and I seem to be unaware!

Somnath,

I can’t help allude to my relatives of the financial world. Your condescension and you attempt to indicate that the banking world is from Mars is indeed vexing and odious. Do you think the world is all of fools? International banks recruit the best. Fine. So, you massage my ego. My daughter who is just about 30 is the Head of Operations in a multinational and she set it up when it opened office at ‘x’ city! I did not think much of her, but thanks to you, you have given reasons for me to be proud of her. Likewise, CFO of a US FMGC! Therefore, when you are condescending and pithy, it is essential to tell you that we are not living in slums and uneducated and no Slumdog Millionaires either! Your continuous bashing of the Army, with half baked facts and your rubbing shoulders with Gen Roychowdhury, in no way impresses me. What takes the wind off my sails is you élan and sole purpose of doing down the Army! True the Army is no prima donna, but to use half baked ideas to bash it, is ridiculous. I assure you that I am a very tolerant man since varied views helps. But when one harangues without facts and that too in a public forum, it rankles! So, quit the being hurt attitude. Face up and box on based on facts! Just take you self opiniated comments on the Cold Start. What do you know of the Cold Start Doctrine or what are the lessons learnt in the exercises conducted to test it?

You have written about the SSC entry. Indeed it is one solution, but then you have not indicated how Gen Kapoor’s theory of allowing them HC course etc as an ‘attraction’. If a person has command a Battalion (18 years of service) and then get nominated, how will a SSC chap achieve that service if he is to retire/ quit at 10 years?

If the best were to be in banking and finance, then the US and its Banks would not fold up. Any comments?

Running a bank is complex? Nothing is complex in life. It is just knowledge and attitude. One would find driving a car in Kolkata a complex issue! We are no Natural Disaster Management experts and yet we save the Nation in a natural disaster. Innovation and sheer common sense and those who are highly educated in all the theory of natural disaster management are total failure! Attitude and the desire to ensure results!

Ok, if you think Rajiv Gandhi and what really reaches the intended people and his statement is bogus, so be it!

The Japanese system works in India. Come over and see! The CEO of Sony can be from Mars, his people are Japanese (and not Japs!). They are changing to the US ways as you say and they are also in deep trouble! It is time you realise that unless there is the ‘we are a family’ attitude, things will not work. A Master – Servant equation does not work!

So, the PM of Singapore is a ‘complex issue’ being only reserved for Chinese? What’s so complex? India has no problems with Muslims (who got their homeland carved out of India) to be the President, high officials, Chief of the Military and so on. There was nothing complex in India, such a huge country and yet it is complex for a city state that can be traversed one end to the other in one hour!

Here again you condensing shows. You thought with the Army pay and pension, one could not go around the world. True. But with the paltry sums available to us, we have tried to give the best education we could give to our children and they have done us proud!

Again, I have to go to my family antecedents on this issue of Muslims and you will state I am using my relatives. Interesting as it is, I have Hindus, Brahmo Samajis, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, and a whole lot of Indian communities, and international communities including Jamaicans and Jews as a part of my extended family. I am from an international and inter racial and inter religious community’s type of a family. We meet and exchange ideas and so I am quite a tolerant type.

It must also be remembered that to bet the best of brains, be it banking or conservancy staff, it is attracted by the 'best of greed content' commensurate with expertise!

[RayC]

Lets not shut somnath up - he may irritate at times but he is prodding in interesting places

on the other hand

Does any US based member really belive this has already happened?? It may happen - but thats a diff thing and at that point am pretty sure there will be not much gloating because a lot of other countries will get sucked along

The US has collapsed thanks to these type of people ( I saw Obama's first Press conference),

As for this

Heard of the success of the Japanese business system? The all encompassing 'family'?

Not sure in what context it is mentioned?? Is the assumption that system is somehow caring for the family and is better suited to India??

Somehow it seems to be the trend that MBAs, Bankers, marketing types are all idiots - because all the screw ups around are happening due to them - based on that all Military personnel should be graded on the lines of Mushy and other tin pot generals


So instead of spinning into Singapore and kowtowing and other assorted diversions - lets pick one clean discussion point

The Issue of the Army managing its personnel's finance needs by indirectly or directly managing a bank\credit union whatever.

Be self-satisfied that there is no success but the US and Singapore.
Have you been to Singapore?
It is an excellent place to live, but it is quasi police state.
Nothing wrong actually, but it is time you understood Legalism. If you have not, then you are in a Fools Paradise!
Nobody is an idiot, even if idiots throng the organisation. And nobody is perfect?
Where do you live?
Heaven!
Do you grudge your family being looked after? Do you dislike you Mother, Father and children and wife that much?
Sorry, I am being blunt, but if I were not to worry about my family and have all things normal, I would be better versed to apply myself to the task at hand for which I am paid.
Do you think that is a wrong philosophy?
Sure want to know so that I understand an attitude that I have not perceived!
The sad part is none is understanding that none is transgressing the govt's core responsibility by having a bank, It is helping the govt actually to concentrate on the core responsibilities

Since when has banking become a govt's core responsibility?


Mrs G nationalised banks to ensure that they have social responsibility, If you have not complained so far over this, why are you all so het up if the Army wants to meet its social responsibilities? More so, when the govt is incapable of meeting it

[somnath]

RayC,

If you dont argue on facts but only on rhetoric and strange "family connection" allusions, its really no point...

about cold start, I went through Gen Oberoi's note - it didnt say too much I am afraid about Cold Start, its results or its level of operationalisation..Walter Ladwig's article that I posted earlier said much more about Cold start, and till date remains the most exhaustive piece that I have seen...the other one is Subhash Kapila's analysis here..http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers10/paper991.html

From my understanding of this (and a lot of the other analyses), mobility is surely a key variable for Cold Start. But so is "geopolitical preemption", ability to wage a more "limited war", and presenting a smaller target for possible Paki tactical nukes are equally pertinent ones...

there were no of exercises to validate the doctrine (from Divya Astra onwards)...As per published info, there are key equipment gaps in the existing "docntrinal" setup. the most important of them is joint ops..The Army envisages integrated air (and naval) assets with its IBGs - IAF doesnt want to hear anything about it..Second, such fluid, mobile operation would require a level of network centricity that is currently only on the drawing board (including dedicated military satellites, bandwidth for the services etc)...Third, according to a recent comment from Gen Oberoi (surprise surprise!) himself, the IA has just about enough to equip "completely" only one of its strike corps..In fact he mentioned how the entire "critical" assets of the IA are sometime mobilised for division level exercises!! All the exercises carried out have been corps level (max about 40k troops) - so there is a lot of ground to be covered before we have enough equipemnt for the 8 envisaged IBGs...

that much for the doctrine as it stands today..

More important, how does this dovetail inot the political objectives of the country..India absolutely wants to keep any conflict below the nuke threshold..It is also a basic premise of Cold start..Obviously the political leadership is not "comfortable enough" with it yet, in terms of this being able to "keep" the conflict below the threshold..especially as Pakistan has clearly stated (per Gen Kidwai of SPD - link posted earlier) that any major destruction of its military infrastructure would mean a nuke first response - and Cold Start looks to do exactly that, destroy a big part of the military infrastructrue..therefore, its still WIP frm the most important politico objkectives basis.

therefore, its amusing to hear you say that the doctrine is "already in place and it has been practised"...By the admission of most published literature, it isnt..

Just out of curiousity, are their "heavier" arty assets in the IA outside of Bofors and Grad 21?

More amusing is your allusion to how the "japanese system" works in India...Do you know that it took two and half decades before the Maruti plant in Manesar was even "near" the productivity levels of Suzuki in Japan? And they are the exemplars of Japanese industry in India...Family is hardly a factor - most Indian businesses are family owned..In case you are interested about the Japanese model, you can read the "Toyota Way" - thats a good start..

I can engage with you on the complexities of runnign a bank, but it wouyld be completely OT..Why dont you just refer to the very ballpark calculations for capital required I had given on a possible Army Bank? Where do you think such capital will come from, year after year?

Lastly, I would really want to know where I have "bashed the Army" as you put it...some references to posts would be useful for future consideration...and rubbing "shoulders with Gen Roychoudhury"!!when did I mention that? Only once I referred to a conversation on the point about the Arjun tank - I have only met him once, but was fortunate to have a really long chat....

About the question of singapore - Muslims are indigeneous people of India, they are not immigrants...The indigeneous people of Singapore are Chinese, Indians and Malays are immigrants (I nwould take the latter too as immigranst)..therefore the issues are far more complex..Its about the possibility of an Indian getting elected as the Dutch PM, or a Turk becoming the German Chancellor..For all their egalitarianism, the europeans are struggling with the issue of race and ethnicity...In the same way as we have problems if an Italian born becomes the PM...

Lastly, sir I dont think you bring any credit to this discussion (or to the achievements of your relations) by invoking the latter...I dont need to prove my background or credentials to you (suffice to say that has been done by some of the most elite institutions in India, onces that are only open to the "99th percentile" that I allude to for the PC), so lets stick to the facts...

[RayC]

I am not too sure if you understand the value of ‘family’!

You may not have lived in a non unitary family and so you will not understand.

The Armed Forces is a family, just like the Indian Joint family system!

It is the point. If my father was killed, would I stand idle?

You understand balance sheets and things that are not real in human affairs and so you will not understand human emotions. I don’t blame you!

I am sure you don’t expect Oberoi to spell the Cold Start in raw terms. I tried to explain it in more detailed terms. If you have not got it, I regret that I cannot give you the Op Plans.

Subhash Kapila is a Brigadier and my instructor. And I have high regards for him.

Unless you are in the ‘inner circle’ you would not know what’s up and I will be damned if I told you so in an open forum!

Let’s not get smug with all the gobbledygook about network centric etc. Have aim, will deliver. All one has to know what is expected of them! What’s the big deal? It has been done before and it can be done now!

The air assets are integrated, the navy is on a limb and know that it has to be delivered and so you are pessimistic to feel Indian is in disarray. Since you are a political creature, address your apprehension to them.

What is wrong have 8 IBGs? You want more? Are you the DGMO or COAS? If you feel that they are idiots and you know more, as a banker, spell it out. Stop hedging!

If the doctrines and practices are not in place and you know more, then may this helps:
http://www.sunna.info/prayer/TheBasicso ... Prayer.php...

About the nomenclature of Arty equipment as to what is heavy, light and medium and since you know more than all, why don’t you educate us?

I am not interested in knowing how a bank is run. Gen Joshi was no fool and he surely must have examined the issue. The fact that the AWHO is successful is a pointer! It is not in the military’s domain and yet one of its successes!

You have not bashed the army, You have showered valentine kisses!

Good for you to be on name calling basis for Gen Roychowdhury. It does not mean he is =the last word! Though I have great respect for him, are you asking me to sell my soul?



Chinese are the original inhabitants of Singapore?

Why do you fudge everything to prove you are sir Oracle?

Here it is on Singapore

The Merlion has a lion head and a fish body resting on a crest of waves. The lion head symbolises the legend of the rediscovery of Singapura, as recorded in the "Malay Annals". In ancient times, Singapore was known as Temasek, a Javanese word for sea. In the 11th century A.D, Prince Sang Nila Utama of the Sri Vijaya Empire rediscovered the island. When the Prince first landed on Singapore's shores, he sighted a mystical beast which he later learnt was a lion. The Prince then decided to name the island "Singapura" which in Sanskrit means Lion (Singa) City (Pura). The fish tail of the Merlion symbolises the ancient city of Temasek and represents Singapore's humble beginnings as a fishing village.

Why can’t you research? As a banker you should. Or are you of the genre of Pricewaterhouse Cooper and let anything pass so long as the price is right?


To be frank status or profession does not impress me.6

If you rub shoulders with Gen Roychowdhury, it impresses. How many wars has he faced?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating!

Yet, is Gen Roychowdhury better than me?

You be he is!

[somnath]

RayC,

you are really not making any sense to me..Maybe the others can interpret better! So now everything about Cold start is a "done deal", but behind the curtain! IAF is integrated?! Every other day some CAS talks about how integrating air assets with Army formations is a sub optimal use of air power..

I dont "want" any more or less than 8 IBGs - thats what the doctrine says..Unfortunately, as Gen Oberoi says, we have just about enough equipment to properly equip 1 strike corps!

If you think AWHO is a pointer to how an Army can successfully start and run a Bank...Well....

Why dont you tell us what is "heavy arty" in IA according to you?

I dont have any "first name basis" with Gen RoyC, and I dont consider him as the last word on anything either..

About Singapore - see the link..http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107963.html for some data...

We are not talking about "original inhabitants" here..We are talking about people who have been here for a few generations compared to those who are only a couple of generations here..Indians, most of them, are onkly a couple of generations old here...Chinese have been around for much much longer...and they broke away from Malaysia partly due to this reason...

[Surya]

Once again throwing all sort diversions

we well get back to my lack of knowledge of Singapore , the Japanese workplace, the ethnic divisions in Malaysia - in ample time. After all I am a US fanboy and now a Singaporean one.

Why don't we focus on the straightforward discussion on the Army managing to run a bank either by itself or by its ability to hire skilled staff from the private sector. Maybe it can - maybe it cannot.

Purely stating that you are sure Gen Joshi would have analyzed and had all the answers is no argument.

Somnath - you also need ignore all the other things thrown out (family, status. Singapore. Maruti ) -focus on the banking aspect. Maybe starting with some x numbers and throwing questions at RayC would be the way. then bring in the variables which you start encountering and throw the what ifs.

This way we will have some interesting points. Obviously in a place like this no one is going to admit anything but those who read are intelligent enough to know hwo the discussion goes - that should be your main target.

[HariC]

Lets not shut somnath up - he may irritate at times but he is prodding in interesting places

You are being polite by using the word irritate.

Some people "make their minds up" and you cant do anything to change it so why bother. I have to appreciate RayC's patience in responding to the naysayers

If you notice most of the people have dropped off this thread not because they are at a loss of points or they dont have counter points, but they see no value in converting the disbelievers which is a complete waste of time.

I mean - you read a few popular books and you think you are an expert in managing the army strategy - heck - what can i tell you to convince you otherwise

[HariC]

Lets take your own view points

we focus on the straightforward discussion on the Army managing to run a bank either by itself or by its ability to hire skilled staff from the private sector. Maybe it can - maybe it cannot. Purely stating that you are sure Gen Joshi would have analyzed and had all the answers is no argument.

Why not. You have never met Gen Joshi. You never knew him. If you did, You should say so and lay out why you dont think he is capable.

RayC met him and that is is opinion and judgement of Gen Joshi being capable. if you say "nyaah nyaah nyaaa. i dont believe you.." then there is nothing to be done from then on .. right?

[Surya]

HariC

I agree. Thats why I am trying to focus him in the area where he is not purely "book driven' and a point brought up by RayC. ie. the idea of the ARmy running a bank

On the other hand RayC's points(to put it mildly) are wildly of tangent and all over the place. Likewise his area of expertise is in the operational aspect of the Army where he is solid.

When one moves out of the comfort aspect of their respective expertise it needs to be a little more focussed. And that goes for all the folks on the forum no matter how senior.


There are a number of reasons people go silent but you and me can discuss that offline so that we keep this foucssed on one topic (hopefully).

drop a line at balaji_b4 AT hotmail


Added later
Ref Gen Joshi
Ok - if you think that helped you get the answer to the Army capable of running a bank then so be it. Not sure that would be a valid debating point - ie. someone who heads a certain type of organisation brilliantly can automatically be assumed to be aware of the intricacies and pitfalls of running other complex institutions or businesses- but if you are convinced I have no issue

Now that we are disagreeing at least people will not think we are the same person

[RayC]

I am not here as a Prophet to preach a new religion and convert people.

Yet, to see the continuous Army bashing does get my back up, especially when it is on half baked knowledge and more so, with Sir Oracle flourish!

I have no hang up if things that are not hunky dory with the Army is stated. Like the issue of Gen Deepak Kapoor’s idea of making the SSC an ‘attractive scheme’. Prima facie, given the realities, it appears odd. Bareboned, it appears a fudge. I have not hesitated to say so. Yet, on the other hand, the media could have either not understood it or has not reported it fully and if so, I am wrong.

Let us look at running a bank. What do you require? Capital and expertise. Army has the capital. There are two types of funds – Army generated (mandatory contributions) and public funds. To feel that this is a small amount is another misconception. The Army Budget or a part of it we talk about is parked where? To use Pranab Mukherjee – in heaven? And is the Army Budget spent in one day? So, is there a dearth of finance?

Next, expertise. Is there a dearth of financial and banking personnel, who for a fat salary won’t work for the Army?

I am no fanboy of any country, but my own!

Running banks is a side issue that cropped up, but the main issue was the Army and its ways. Sadly, even the credit to Gen Joshi and his vision of Cold Start got rubbished, but by those who are busy in account books and ledgers. I say that if they are better than Gen Joshi, then why don’t they come and take over, instead of earning fat salaries (the best are in international banking!!!!!!) and serving foreign interests! It is no idea of talking big here. Put your money where your mouth is! Not as an Indian saying, but whose that are rolling over in praise of the financial heaven - the US!

The Pais and Kamaths or their forefathers when they started their banks were experts?

Now on the contention that the best are in international banking, how come they are folding up and are being salvaged by taxpayers’ money (an anathema to US economic philosophy)? The best should not have to make the US go ‘socialist’! I believe being a socialist or a liberal is a cussword in the US). This can be debated in a separate thread. Just for records, how many of the banks with brilliant people folded up and how many of these brilliant people and their folks are being kept afloat with govt money? Any takers?

Gen Joshi may not have all the answers. But he was no birdbrain as some would like to indicate as if they are from Krypton saving the world!

It matters not who is a fanboy of the US or now of Singapore. Yes, for an Indian, used to chaos, Singapore is great. But then make a small error and you are hauled over the coals! But of course, why should one of Gandhis’s country ever make an error! We are so perfect!

Yet, given all the infirmities of India, I remain a fanboy of India. Is that shameful an act?

The family, status etc have not been thrown in just for fun. The condescending attitude that Army men are some illiterates and are some weeds from the ground is what got the goat. Quite a large numbers of us are from highly educated and intellectual families. We have not joined the Army just because we had nowhere togo! To be frank, there are many who need not have joined the Army, but then they were groomed to believe, rightly or wrongly, that it was a ‘calling’ and not a ‘profession’. I will concede such is a dying class, even though still there!!

Even in this place, people are ready to give way and concede things are not OK or do not sound right – like Kapoor’s SSC stuff! Does not appear right or the media has got him wrong! Let’s not feel all are dogmatic and standing on egos! In case it is the style of some, it should not be washed on others with a broad brush!

Let us look at running specialised services. Is Manmohan Singh a soldier or a General? Yet he can get the Army going as per his desires! He is the piper who pays for the tune. There is enough of funds and Gen Joshi could not have called the tune?

Somnath,

I happen to see and partake in the Kinetic Honda philosophy near Mhow and my sister in law is a Japanese magnates daughter! Sorry, it is family again! Stupid of us, right?
.

[HariC]

Not sure that would be a valid debating point - ie. someone who heads a certain type of organisation brilliantly can automatically be assumed to be aware of the intricacies and pitfalls of running other complex institutions or businesses- but if you are convinced I have no issue

Its a good thing that all of us werent around when someone proposed the whacky idea of entrusting ghat road building in remote areas to the Army saying its not the army;s job to build roads. Where would we be without that complex institution called the BRO?

Some companies in the US run their own employee credit union (or have spinned off such). i worked for a company whose core competancy was cell phones and electronics. put my money in their ECU, got car loans from them. for all purpose it was a bank. so whats the big deal of running a bank anyway?

Lets go to any small town in india and there are a lot of co-operative banks. Quite a few did well on their own. it doesnt require an IIM education to start a bank. especially with a captive customer base like army personnel. todays world when we say bank, we tend to think of CDOs, Mortgage crisis, stock market etc. Thats not the activity we are talking about.

[RayC]

BRO is a quasi military organisation.

An excellent and an efficient organisation with selfless workers! The Army salutes them! Without their selfless service, asking for so little, our life would be hell. God Bless them.

They are a great input of India's defence!

It is time to recognise them also!

[Surya]

ok now we have a little more focus (once again lets ignore Singapore , US , Japanese work sturcture, in laws, magnates ) etc.


So Somnath - RayC says the Army will come up with the capital.

So now your turn - put some numbers and explain why at some point there will hurdles (which I believe is what you are saying).

[rohitvats]

@Somnath

The correlation between Cold Start and mobilisation speed is well taken. However, am not so sure that the placement of our Strike Corps is a "situational disadvantage". I would presume that the placement of the Strike Corps has been a matter of deliberate strategy, both political as well as military. It was pertinent, at some pioint in time, and now is surely a hindrance - hence Cold start is a good begining in terms of a discussion (though as I said, it is very very far from being a done deal - both "doctrinally" as well as in terms of equipment fit out)...

If you look up the locations of the Strike Corps HQ and their principle assets (Armored divisions and RAPIDS), they'll be invariably situated close to major rail and road junctions allowing for easy of transportation to the designated AOR. But their is another imprtant point.All these cantonments were main centers of Military during the British Raj. These centers had the infrastructure which was used for stationing of these elements. Mathura, Sagar, Allahabad, Jhansi to name a few.

the UN restrictions in Kashmir are a joke - just like UN mandates/operations anywhere. The UNMOGIP simply doesnt have the infrastructure to monitor and certify anything on the ORBAT att all.. I would be very surprised if either party took them seriously..the chicken's neck area is a geographical weakness on our side - but defence against that is the entire netowrk of DCBs and heavy artillery concentration..And we have done some extensive work there..

It might very well be a joke but please look up the ORBAT of IA in the sector. Only Sambha (prior to Jammu) has a Armored Brigade in the sector. You can argue that Pathankot, which is major military hub, is not that far off, this is situation on the ground. And which 'heavy artillery' concentration are you refering to?

But really the question was on the Pakis mobilising quicker than us..Well, I would say its a mixed bag.. They did, in 1965 spring a surprise..But we did the same in 1971...they did spring a surprise in Kargil, we did pretty much the same in 1984 in Siachen..So IMHO it has been about political objectives and how robust the plan was to meet them rather than any intrinsic ability of the Pak Army to mobilise quicker..

PA springing a surprise in 65' was more from good concealment of ORBAT and movement of own troops (the fact that PA had 2 and not 1 Armored Division and its location in Kasur was the biggest surprise of the war). The surprise element of attack on Chhamb-Jaurian was the exactly becasue of the geography thing I mentioned earlier. I do not know how surprise and 1971 IA mobilization are related.

[Rahul M]

Lets go to any small town in india and there are a lot of co-operative banks. Quite a few did well on their own. it doesnt require an IIM education to start a bank. especially with a captive customer base like army personnel. todays world when we say bank, we tend to think of CDOs, Mortgage crisis, stock market etc. Thats not the activity we are talking about.

I'm not an expert in this by any means but it does look to me that Gen Joshi's idea was more akin to a co-operative bank than a general bank. (wrong term I suppose but kindly overlook that !)

am I right ? in yes then somnath would have to put his points accordingly and not "why army can't create ICICI" because AFAI understand it never intended to do so.

[jimmbswu]

If the Indian Army wants to stand up its own employee credit union/bank, then there are important questions on the scope of its activities. [speaking as a dis-interested observer]

1st, Should the Army place its operational and personnel budget inside the bank as a deposit? Generally, government entities keep their budget at the central bank. I presume that the current Army budget is at the Reserve Bank of India? The central bank of a country generally use the government deposits as its own collateral for the various activities of a central bank, such as loans to banks in crisis, etc. The central bank depends on the government deposits for its own operational funds, so it is doubtful that the Reserve Bank will let go of the Army deposit without a turf fight. If the Army pulls out its money, the other ministries and services will surely follow, leading to the collapse of the Reserve Bank. Is that a desired outcome?

It must be kept in mind that the only government entities, worldwide, that's allowed to keep money away from a central bank, are clandestine activities and intelligence agencies.

If Army can't pull its budget from the Reserve Bank, that significantly reduces the potential capital available.

2nd, Who should the "Army Credit Union" loan money to? A bank does not make money simply by sitting on the deposits. It has to make loans to somebody. Otherwise it cannot afford to pay interest to the soldiers. RayC, would you recommend your soldiers to put their money in a bank that gives them 0% interest?

The two options are: A, loan money only to members(soldiers & dependents), or B, loan money to the general public.

Loaning money only to members will increase the security of the deposit, because the peer pressure will increase repayment rate. However, since soldiers don't seem to be engaging in small businesses (my impression), the bank will not make a lot of money.

Loans for the average consumer are of two types, business and real estate. Business loans charge more interest and has more profit, also more risk. Real estate, on the other hand, charges less interest (because of the collateral) and less profit, but safer. If Army Credit Union only loans to soldiers, who primarily will be buying houses and farms, the bank will not make a lot of money. It also cannot give out a good interest rate for CDs and saving accounts.

And because it is a credit union or a membership bank, it will be under a lot of pressures by the members to make loans at sub-market rates, further depressing business margins.

If I was a soldier in India, I would only leave enough money in the Army Bank to keep up my membership and take advantage of the loans. I would keep the rest of my savings at a normal bank that gives me competitive interest rates.

B. loaning out to everybody. If the Army Bank loans out to everyone, it will be exposed to market risk like any other commercial bank. It will make more money for the shareholders (soldiers), but with more risk. To give an example, the California Public Employees Retirement System, the largest public employee pension fund in the US, lost $81 billion between Oct07 and Dec08, or 31% of its value. CalPERS is one of the best managed financial fund in the US, so I'm using it to illustrate the extent of market risk.

Can an Army Bank survive if it loses 31% of its loans? Does India have a guarantee on saving deposits, similar to the American FDIC?

3rd, should the Army Bank get involved in investment activities? In the US, soldiers can supplement their pension by saving in a retirement investment account (mutual funds TSP) and individual retirement accounts.

4th, does the Army use a government credit card / government travel card like the US gov't? Should the Army Bank offer credit card services, which is useful but dangerous?

Anyway, there are some important details to be hashed out. The Reserve Bank is probably the biggest obstacle here. According to RayC, Indian officers and soldiers don't have much of a savings account, so if that's all the Army Bank can draw on [plus the regimental mess funds], that is not a whole lot of capital there. The Army Bank would be very limited in what it can do and offer.