Questioning the Army's Methodologies

[MohanG]

A post copied from another blog about the so-called degradation of officers of armed forces.

Reference: Ashwini Channan's article A Disquiet Within: Astigmatism In Civil-Military Relations

Copied below: posts 5 and 6 from Pragmatic Euphony

Ashwini Channan also cribs about the decline in ‘Status’. He says that during the British times the Commander in Chief was placed at the number 2 spot, whereas he is now placed lower than Chairman UPSC. A Field Marshall is placed below some civil servants. Usual cribs.

Now, he should be asked not to waste our time in making silly arguments.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

We are living in a democratic society.

Civilians will have precedence over military officers. Yes, even civilian officers.

Look at the US Protocol Precedence List at http://www.usma.edu/Protocol/images/DA_precedence.pdf

The Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff is placed at Number 76 (YES 76 !! ) below these officers:

54 DEPUTY SECRETARIES AND UNDER SECRETARIES (WHEN DEPUTY SECRETARY EQUIVALENT) OF THE EXECUTIVE
DEPARTMENTS (NUMBER-TWO POSITION)
55 ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS
56 ASSISTANTS AND COUNSEL TO THE PRESIDENT
61 DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
64 DIRECTOR, ARMS CONTROL AND DISARMAMENT AGENCY
65 DIRECTOR, U.S. INFORMATION AGENCY
66 UNDERSECRETARIES OF STATE AND COUNSELS
67 UNDERSECRETARIES OF THE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS (NUMBER-THREE POSITION)
68 U.S. AMBASSADORS AT LARGE
69 UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR ACQUISITION (FOR ACQUISITION MATTERS ONLY) (SEE #77)
70 SECRETARY OF THE ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE
71 POSTMASTER GENERAL
72 CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM
73 CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION
74 CHAIRMAN, COUNCIL ON ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY

Now a quibble can be raised. Many of the officers shown above are political appointees. Many need to be confirmed by the Senate. But so is the case with Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is also a political appointee and he also needs Senate confirmation.

Second, many of these officers are professional civil servants. For example, in the State Department, John D. Negroponte, Deputy Secretary of State was a career foreign service officer. So were many Undersecretaries.

I rest my case.

Did I mention that in India the Chiefs are placed above the members of Parliament ?

Sacrilege… Isn’t it.

In US, they are placed much below.

42 UNITED STATES SENATORS (BY SENIORITY; WHEN EQUAL, BY ALPHA)
43 FORMER UNITED STATES SENATORS (BY DATE OF RETIREMENT)

47 UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES (BY SENIORITY; WHEN EQUAL, BY ALPHA)
48 FORMER CONGRESSMEN (BY DATE OF RETIREMENT

Any comments ?

[ASPuar]

Mohan, I respect your knowledge of matters such as these too much to seriously believe that you put any credence in a post as poorly informed and motivated as this.

You are aware, as is the malfeasant author of this post, that there is a difference between a political appointee, and an appointment confirmed by the senate.

You are also, I am quite sure, aware that undersecretaries, and deputy secretaries are completely different animals in the US and India.

Let me state the following things:

1. First and foremost, India and the US are different countries, and comparisons such as these are odious. Their entire system of governance, a presidential one, has a completely diffrerent method of government and cabinet appointments, and the comparison is almost baseless.

2. If Generals are placed above MP's in India, let us not forget that so is the Cabinet Secretary, another government servant.

3. Under secretaries and deputy secretaries of state in the US are essentially junior ministers in the government, and the executive (the president), picks his own team, after taking office, and can appoint anyone he chooses (subject to senate confirmation).

4. Generals in the States are not "political appointees", (though they are more so than they are in India), and their system is, IMO, not on to be emulated at all. In any case, Generals (and high civil servants) in India are also appointed by the representatives of the people, with the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet handling these matters. There is a difference between being confirmed by the ACC and becoming a "political appointee".

5. The example of John Negroponte is tiresome and foolish overexcitement at the end of the author of this nonsensical piece. Negroponte served with the foreign office till 1997.

After that, all his appointments have been of a political and not a career civil service nature. This is akin to saying that Yashwant Sinha, an IAS officer, was finance minister, or that Jaswant Singh, an army officer was foreign minister. They were both retired from their respective services, before they took to politics, and became ministers, just as Negroponte did. Again, the US system is very different from the Indian one, and their civil and military services are, by the way, far more politicised than ours.

Please, do not post such pseudo reasoning, which even you know to be false and basely motiviated over here. They are merely the frustrated outpourings of a disgruntled bunch. Pay them no heed. Anyway what is the point of putting down the military? Are they not our soldiers? Why should anyone in India invest such time and energy in trying to post all this drivel? What motivates them? That is the question I want to know the answer to.

At any rate, the author of the post you have reproduced above is in error. It is a non sequitur to compare two incomparably different systems of governance and administration. If he believes so strongly in this system, then he should be ready to believe, also, that the post of cab sec should be tenable by a captain of industry, or a professor, or anyone the PM chooses to appoint, because such is the case for any high govt post in the United States.

[pgbhat]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... %2c+please

Good analysis from Bharat Karnad on our options vis-a-vis Pakistan

The Indian SF is competent in limited domains, and its questionable tactics were evidenced, for example, in handling the urban terrorist guerrilla menace during 26/11.

Can somebody explain the highlighted part........what does he mean??

[AdityaM]

A post copied from another blog about the so-called degradation of officers of armed forces.
Reference: Ashwini Channan's article A Disquiet Within: Astigmatism In Civil-Military Relations

Copied below: posts 5 and 6 from Pragmatic Euphony

Any comments ?

If you want a comment, then look no further than http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2009/01/28/1812/
for a sarcasm by someone called PS:

u are right sir.
these defence fellows must be shown their place or the door.
the delhi police (a good armed force) usually wins the marching
trophy every year so they can easily do the army job with a bit of
drdo help.
So why give 10 bottles of whisky per month to military officials to
conquer the kashmir ?

[somnath]

The Indian SF is competent in limited domains,

He is referrgin to the usage of the Special Forces in limited domains, ie, counter insurgency ops. Though I must say I didnt understand this bit either..

questionable tactics were evidenced, for example, in handling the urban terrorist guerrilla menace during 26/11.

[MohanG]

ASPuar,

You are right in saying that it is difficult to compare across different systems. You are right in saying that Deputy Secretary/ Under Secretary in US are more like junior Ministers here.

However, I agree with the author of the post that the Armed Forces are whining about losing their status. To compare the Military Chief's current position (12) in the WoP to the position held at the time of independence (2) is height of idiocy.

What the WoP in US demonstrates are two points:

(1) There are more than a thousand US citizens who are placed above the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff in US. Not many Indian citizens are placed above a service chief in India.

(2) There are many 'civilian' authorities (Under/Deputy Secretaries, Secretary of Army/Navy/AirForce) placed between the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Defence Secretary in US. In India, it appears that the Service Chiefs don't talk to or report to anyone in the Defence Ministry other than the Cabinet Minister.

The constant reference to and reliance on the WoP while talking of the 'status' of defence personnel is an anachronism that needs to go away. It unnecessarily inflates military egos, and is incompatible with smooth civil-military relations in a democratic society. I hardly ever hear about the WoP in civilian circles, and do so quite frequently in military circles.

And yes, GoI can post political appointees to the post of Secretary. Two prominent examples - Manmohan Singh and Montek Singh Ahluwalia. They haven't posted any political appointee to the post of Cabinet Secretary yet. But that can change anytime. {Mayawati has appointed a political 'Cabinet Secretary' - incidentally a pilot - in UP. }.

[MohanG]

If you want a comment, then look no further than http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/2009/01/28/1812/
for a sarcasm by someone called PS:

u are right sir.
these defence fellows must be shown their place or the door.
the delhi police (a good armed force) usually wins the marching
trophy every year so they can easily do the army job with a bit of
drdo help.
So why give 10 bottles of whisky per month to military officials to
conquer the kashmir ?

Good sarcasm. Hope it works for PS.

BTW, I think the recent reduction in liquor quota is a good step.

[KrishG]

Indian Army to have amphibious force soon

New Delhi (IANS): The Indian Army is all set to get next month its own amphibious brigade, modelled on the lines of the Indian Navy's marine commandos and specialising in land and marine warfare. Experts see it as a “necessary adjunct” to meet India's security challenges.

"The amphibious brigade of the army has been undergoing training for over a year at Thiruvananthapuram and will be formally launched by the defence minister (A.K. Antony) next month," a defence ministry official told IANS.

Named the 91 Infantry Brigade, the amphibious force has a strength of 3,000 personnel.

“The soldiers have been drawn from the Sikh, Gorkhas and Madras regiments,” the official added.

"Dedicated ships and aircrafts would be needed to make it (amphibious brigade) fully operational. But it is a good beginning for the augmentation of the maritime security of the country," said Major General (retired) Ashok Mehta.

Amphibious warfare is the utilisation of naval firepower, logistics and strategy to send troops ashore. In the modern era, amphibious warfare persists in the form of commando insertion by fast patrol boats and mini submersibles.

“In modern warfare, an amphibious landing of infantry troops on a beach is the most complex of all military manoeuvres," an army official said.

"The undertaking requires coordination of numerous military specialities, including air power, naval gunfire, naval transport, logistical planning, specialised equipment, land warfare, tactics and extensive training in the nuances of this manoeuvre for all personnel involved,” the official said.

A well-planned and executed amphibious operation - basically a tri-service operation launched from the sea by carrying soldiers and their weaponry on a ship and affecting a landing on enemy shore - could change the course of a war.

Last year, India unveiled the joint doctrine for its amphibious operations. The doctrine is meant to serve as a guideline on how the armed forces intend to plan and conduct amphibious operations and achieve full synergistic effect of joint combat power.

“In this century this (amphibious) capability is desirable. It is a necessary adjunct to the capability of India seeing the kind of security challenges it has to face,” said strategic analyst Commodore (retired) Uday Bhaskar.

The Indian Army has been augmenting its amphibious capabilities for long. One of the most advanced amphibious warships of the Indian Navy, the INS Shardul, was affiliated to the 5 Armoured Regiment of the Indian Army last year.

Loaded with state-of-the-art equipment, INS Shardul is an amphibious warship capable of transporting personnel and accomplishing all objectives of beaching operations.

The 5 Armoured Regiment holds some of the most potent and advanced tanks in the world. Since 2002, the regiment has been at the cutting edge of the mechanised operations.

“The Indian Army always had a certain degree of amphibious capability. The fact that we are moving to a brigade level is enhancement of one more component of joint combat. For a country like India, what is important is how we are weaving together the technological and component profile,” Bhaskar added.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 291651.htm

[rkhanna]

Can somebody explain the highlighted part........what does he mean??

Whether we like it or not we all have to agree that the Rescue Operation (dispite the Difficulties) could have been done better. Alot of the "Better" refers to the adminstration part of it and lack of Experience in such a place.

1) No plane..took for ever to get them from Delhi To bombay

2) Lack of BluePrints on the two hotels.

3) Lack of Intel/Or time to gather Intel before going in. All Units essentially went in blind.

4) No Effective Comms/Or other Equipment ..Even Ballistic Shields are important. not only do they protect the operators they are key in moving rescued Hostages. Lack of Enough NightFighting Capability.

5) Lack of any form of Parameter Security/Ring. Lack of Control over the Media

6). Lack of Helo.. The Helo Assault on Nariman House is slow and the Mi-17 is the worst Helo in such an Enviorment. You need to go in Fast and hard and deploy troops onto roof tops a LOT FASTER than the NSG was deployed.. THe noise of the Helo gives enough warning to the badguys to waste hostages.




Lastly the NSG has never ever dealth with or trained for such a threat as what happened in bombay. In contrast NYPD ESU and others have repeatedly trained for Mass Urban Counter Terrorism in the past. Same goes with the SAS CT Unit. They routinely visit Important Structures all over the country and recce them incase in the future they need to "retake" it.

Lastly. Maybe Just Maybe we need to Update/Improve even the simplest Skills such as RoomClearing, Stealthier Helo Insertions Etc. the NSG is GOOD. no doubt. But for along time they have remained Stangant and not continued to improve/ammend/Modify their Tactics.. They need further Exposure to Western/Foriegn Methodogy. IN the West GSG-9/GIGN/American SWAT Units/SEALs etc routinely meet and discuss new tactics and methodology. We need to start doing the same. Improve our Skill set and Improve out Technology.

[RayC]

The problem is that most of us, including those who make policies template the US or western philosophies, to organisations to be raised.

One has to organise its defence forces based on its need and on its political drive and aim.

If SF is to replicated the SAS and the US SF, it requires to also have the same political will as these countries.

Right now, as things stand, we have a wolf based on the policies dictated by sheep!

[RayC]

Mohan G,

When a man is ready to sacrifice his life for his country, which no other damned son of a gun, is ready to do so, he requires status! He has to know his country cared for him as a true son of the country.

If you pay peanuts,then you get monkeys are the US saying goes. I am not talking of money since money in the armed forces is not the sole driving factor - izzat is!

If one's wife thinks one is a wimp and a doormat and only tolerate one for the money one brings home, I am sure one would not in raptures of ecstasy that one is heaven sent!

Even though you feel that it is so!

Have you picked up a gun and stood post?

It is time you looked at Puar's post without flippancy!

[somnath]

The problem is that most of us, including those who make policies template the US or western philosophies, to organisations to be raised.

One has to organise its defence forces based on its need and on its political drive and aim.

If SF is to replicated the SAS and the US SF, it requires to also have the same political will as these countries.

Right now, as things stand, we have a wolf based on the policies dictated by sheep!

Aboslutely, key to using the SF as a strategic weapon is the political will to drive it..There can be some "bottoms up" initiatives as well - like the way the services often do for "shiny" projects like tanks and aircraft - but the IA has been too conservative...

But special ops is a very poltiical call, almost at the same level as nuclear weapons (at least in our context)..And will is aboslutely missing there..

[RayC]

The problem is that most of us, including those who make policies template the US or western philosophies, to organisations to be raised.

One has to organise its defence forces based on its need and on its political drive and aim.

If SF is to replicated the SAS and the US SF, it requires to also have the same political will as these countries.

Right now, as things stand, we have a wolf based on the policies dictated by sheep!

Aboslutely, key to using the SF as a strategic weapon is the political will to drive it..There can be some "bottoms up" initiatives as well - like the way the services often do for "shiny" projects like tanks and aircraft - but the IA has been too conservative...

But special ops is a very poltiical call, almost at the same level as nuclear weapons (at least in our context)..And will is aboslutely missing there..

Bottoms up?

The IAS highlords rule the roost and even correct things like the Cold Start is shoved into oblivion (remember the post of Lt Gen Oberoi I posted) and you talk of bottom up?

It was only an attack on the Parliament, when those women in the Parliament masquerading as men quailed, was it put in place!

And you have the 'idea' to suggest of ''bottom up''?

[somnath]

This question of ranks and parity come up so often. Quite frankly, I think that the political establishment uses this (and Siachen tourism) as the touchstone for good "defence policy", merrily ignoring the larger questions. Developing a military industrial infrastructure, getting the services organisation right to attract the "right" quality, appropriate doctrines for India - defence ministers are too busy for these while gaining brownie points by visiting Siachen and doling out "ranks" and "increased allowances and pay"...

RayC, while I can understand the reason for your emotions on this issue, I dont find this "have you served" argument rational. I have said this before, this is akin to Dr Kakodkar saying "dont argue with me on thermonuclear bombs", or dr Kalam saying "dont criticise me for the failure of Arjun" - something that many, including some in BR, do with credible eloquence...

the question of rank parity bothers only a small fraction of the "brass" in the services - majority of the officer corps (who retire as Lt Cols) dont care. A vast majority of the Captains and Majors quitting prematurely are quitting for the money outside the govt, not because of rank parity..JMT..

[somnath]

Bottoms up?

The IAS highlords rule the roost and even correct things like the Cold Start is shoved into oblivion (remember the post of Lt Gen Oberoi I posted) and you talk of bottom up?

It was only an attack on the Parliament, when those women in the Parliament masquerading as men quailed, was it put in place!

And you have the 'idea' to suggest of ''bottom up''?

RayC, the same approach taken by the IA to prove that T90 is the best tank since the German Tiger (!) and hence we have ordered a few thousand more of them. Or that we absolutely need a "foreign" air defence system - Akash is a piece of shit - and we order the SPYDER! there are numerous occasions when the services do take a fairly succesful bottoms up approach...In any case, I am completely in agreement with you on this - a special ops doctirne is in the domain of the civilian leadership. I only wish the services also showed some foresight in the matter and created a "bottoms up" pressure on them!

[MohanG]

RayC,

With due respect, let's consider the importance of the place in the WoP as a measure of 'status'.

If a place in WoP is so important, then I would imagine no officer would like to work in the US military. Because, no matter how hard they work and how 'suitable' they are for a military job, even at the pinnacle of their career (as Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff) they would still be placed below more than a thousand civilians in the WoP.

And if the number of applicants, both for the soldier class and the officer class, is any indicator, it is not true that 'no damned son of a gun' is ready to fight for India. That the selection system (for the officer class) deems some applicants 'unworthy' does not mean citizens lack the 'jazba' to fight for our country.

I wonder if Admiral Mullen's wife considers him a wimp for being placed below a thousand civilians in the WoP. She must be jealous of our Army Chief's wife ! I don't know if she ever asked Admiral Mullen why he chose to work for US military under such a 'degraded' WoP.

I repeat - our military should get rid of its obsession about the WoP as a measure of 'status'. Clinging to WoP is likely to lead to more disappointments in the future.

[RayC]

This question of ranks and parity come up so often. Quite frankly, I think that the political establishment uses this (and Siachen tourism) as the touchstone for good "defence policy", merrily ignoring the larger questions. Developing a military industrial infrastructure, getting the services organisation right to attract the "right" quality, appropriate doctrines for India - defence ministers are too busy for these while gaining brownie points by visiting Siachen and doling out "ranks" and "increased allowances and pay"...

RayC, while I can understand the reason for your emotions on this issue, I dont find this "have you served" argument rational. I have said this before, this is akin to Dr Kakodkar saying "dont argue with me on thermonuclear bombs", or dr Kalam saying "dont criticise me for the failure of Arjun" - something that many, including some in BR, do with credible eloquence...

the question of rank parity bothers only a small fraction of the "brass" in the services - majority of the officer corps (who retire as Lt Cols) dont care. A vast majority of the Captains and Majors quitting prematurely are quitting for the money outside the govt, not because of rank parity..JMT..

Let's be frank, I would not argue about the scientific aspect of a nuclear device. But I sure would discuss its use and employment since that is my area of responsibility and I would sure ask as to how that will effect the battlefield and also the environment. I would be a damned fool if I didn't.

Have you served is very much an issue. I have not served in the Armoured Corps or the Artillery and I am not aware of their problems as they would know. I have a general idea. Does make a difference!

The overlording of IAS and their total disdain does affect all and it is all about status. The IAS and IPS is responsible to a great extent to the fragging that is there in the services and which the media gloats about!

Let me give you an example. I was a Company Commander (Major) commanding Mahar (scheduled class) troops. One of my jawan's father who dared to build a house amongst the Patils, was parade on a donkey, face blackened and hair saved off. It came out in the local media. The Police and govt of Maharastra took no action. We wrote official letters to the District administration. Nothing happened inspite of repeated reminder. My first cousin was the Secretary Home and so I wrote to him as to how disgraceful it was. He put the screws and things worked out and people arrested and thing like that!

Tell me, if a person has the money to build his house wherever he desires is not allowed to do so, is that India? Further, think of agony the soldier faced and the insult of his father being paraded like that because of a apathetic administration that does not care for official letters from a responsible govt organisation as the defence? If such scant concern is the rule, then why should anyone care to die for the country and why should any volunteer to work for peanuts and die, when one could join another organisation that has the connection to 'get things done'?

[RayC]

RayC,

With due respect, let's consider the importance of the place in the WoP as a measure of 'status'.

If a place in WoP is so important, then I would imagine no officer would like to work in the US military. Because, no matter how hard they work and how 'suitable' they are for a military job, even at the pinnacle of their career (as Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff) they would still be placed below more than a thousand civilians in the WoP.

And if the number of applicants, both for the soldier class and the officer class, is any indicator, it is not true that 'no damned son of a gun' is ready to fight for India. That the selection system (for the officer class) deems some applicants 'unworthy' does not mean citizens lack the 'jazba' to fight for our country.

I wonder if Admiral Mullen's wife considers him a wimp for being placed below a thousand civilians in the WoP. She must be jealous of our Army Chief's wife ! I don't know if she ever asked Admiral Mullen why he chose to work for US military under such a 'degraded' WoP.

I repeat - our military should get rid of its obsession about the WoP as a measure of 'status'. Clinging to WoP is likely to lead to more disappointments in the future.

Mohan G,

You, like the young generation, are fascinated by the US. Nothing wrong. However, India has still to be the US in status or mindset. You forget that!

The ethos of the Indian Army and the Armed Forces was not fashioned on the US, but on the British system and on the Indian class culture. Change that and I will agree with you!

Have you noticed the 'class' struggle over who is the Boss now that Manmohan is out of action? Sonia has ensured that none can be the sole honcho! Indian ethos quickly understood by the Italian domiciled Indian! Mafia also believes in the same! No one should be too powerful except the 'Boss' i.e. the IAS!

[somnath]

Have you served is very much an issue. I have not served in the Armoured Corps or the Artillery and I am not aware of their problems as they would know. I have a general idea. Does make a difference!

You are right. I wouldnt know a fraction of what you would on infantry (or arty/cavalry) tactics, but that does not take away the right to question on the basis of logic. Its finally its that, logic, and not faith, and so can be questioned!

The overlording of IAS and their total disdain does affect all and it is all about status. The IAS and IPS is responsible to a great extent to the fragging that is there in the services and which the media gloats about!

Let me give you an example. I was a Company Commander (Major) commanding Mahar (scheduled class) troops. One of my jawan's father who dared to build a house amongst the Patils, was parade on a donkey, face blackened and hair saved off. It came out in the local media. The Police and govt of Maharastra took no action. We wrote official letters to the District administration. Nothing happened inspite of repeated reminder. My first cousin was the Secretary Home and so I wrote to him as to how disgraceful it was. He put the screws and things worked out and people arrested and thing like that!

Tell me, if a person has the money to build his house wherever he desires is not allowed to do so, is that India? Further, think of agony the soldier faced and the insult of his father being paraded like that because of a apathetic administration that does not care for official letters from a responsible govt organisation as the defence? If such scant concern is the rule, then why should anyone care to die for the country and why should any volunteer to work for peanuts and die, when one could join another organisation that has the connection to 'get things done'?

Hundreds of millions of Indians suffer this apathy every day. Its unfortunate what happened to the jawan in your unit, but the apathy of the civic infrastructure is faced by Indians every day of their life! To somehow claim greater "burden" on account of being a serviceman is surely stretchign the point..

[MohanG]

I am sorry to say it but often we lose perspective when we look too closely at a problem and get too deeply involved in it. {the 'specialist' syndrome}.

1) It is claimed that the apathy of local administration is responsible for a great extent for the incidences of fragging. Clever. Is there any evidence ?

The Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR) conducted a study on ‘Suicide and Fratricide among troops deployed in Counter Insurgency Areas’. Source:

Fragging: Humiliation biggest trigger

9 Jun 2007, 0000 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit, TNN

NEW DELHI:

...

"The jawans attributed perceived humiliation and harassment, over and above occupational and familial causes, as the triggering factor which forced them to take such extreme steps," says the latest study done by the Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR).

...

The DIPR report collected data, through questionnaires and interviews, on over 2,000 soldiers serving in 15 (Srinagar) and 16 Corps (Nagrota) under the Northern Command at Udhampur and 3 Corps (Dimapur) and 4 Corps (Tezpur) under the Kolkata-based Eastern Command.

The "causative factors" listed in the report include "occupational hazards" like increased workload; zero-error syndrome; non-grant of timely leave; and lack of adequate sleep and rest for jawans deployed in relentless counter-insurgency operations.

Soldiers posted in far-flung areas also undergo tremendous mental stress for not being able to take care of the problems facing their families back home, which could range from property disputes and harassment by anti-social elements to financial and marital problems.

Then, of course, lack of basic amenities, paltry pay and allowances also play on their minds. But the jawans "gave lesser weight" to personal and family problems as compared to "harassment and humiliation, which caused hurt to self-esteem and forced them to resort to such extreme steps", says the report.

...

So the DIPR suggests the causative factor with the highest weight is "harassment and humiliation, which caused hurt to self-esteem and forced them to resort to such extreme steps".

Interesting. IAS/IPS officers have an obnoxious habit of lording over specialist institutions (example AIIMS). I did not know they have taken over DIPR also.

2) Now let us look at the suicide and fragging figures. About 100 soldiers commit suicide and about 5-15 are killed in fragging in recent years. Is this rate astonishingly high for our country?

People say things about their organization assuming everyone else in the country is making merry. NCRB statistics reveal that the All India Suicide Rate in 2007 is 10.8 per 100,000{Remember, unlike in the military, a large number of suicides in the civilian world are not reported as such. Reason, complications in dealing with police, I guess.}. With a military of 1.2 million, the suicide rate is not much different than the rest of the population. And if you randomly choose a house to rent in a city like Bangalore, there is a fourfold chance that your neighbor will commit suicide as compared to a randomly chosen soldier in the Army. Suicide rate in Bangalore is 42.7

And just to be honest, we males are a weaker sex. Two-third of the suicides in the civilian world are committed by men. Almost all of the suicides in the military are by men. So man-to-man a civilian is about 60% more likely to commit a suicide than a soldier.

But aren't the other Armies doing better in preventing suicides? There are no 'status' problems there. Unlike our ungrateful nation, they love their soldiers. What are their suicide rates? Let's see. Canada: 12.2, France: 14, UK: 11, Russia: 30, US: 13 (out of 100,000).

Aha! US army has a rate of 13 when it is fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan so it is not difficult to understand. Indian Army is not facing the same level of stress. Gotcha!

No Sir, for US those were the rates for largely peaceful years 1980-1992. What about now? Say, 20 in 2008, despite the extensive effort made in psychological counseling.

Oh, damn the civilians! In western countries too they overlook the letters of Army Officers regarding the problems of their soldiers. Ya Allah!

Now who would have thought of this reasoning. We were supposed to believe that it is the apathy of civilian administration and the tough working conditions unique to the soldier class that are responsible for the deluge of suicides and fragging incidences. Guess what, civilians aint doing better either!

I just remembered what Admiral Nadkarni said:

Indians love scapegoats. How comforting to know that someone else is responsible for all one's inefficiency, ill luck and problems.

[rkhanna]

One has to organise its defence forces based on its need and on its political drive and aim.

If SF is to replicated the SAS and the US SF, it requires to also have the same political will as these countries.

Right now, as things stand, we have a wolf based on the policies dictated by sheep!

Abosultely agree 100%. And i think another major problem is the sytemic lack of Education of our Political Brass wrt the deployment, and employment of SpecOps Unit.

All the PHDs nor Political will ,will help them in making the right decision. (Part of it ofcourse has to do with the Deep Conventional Mindset of Brass Advising them aswell.)

[ajay_ijn]

Then, of course, lack of basic amenities, paltry pay and allowances also play on their minds. But the jawans "gave lesser weight" to personal and family problems as compared to "harassment and humiliation, which caused hurt to self-esteem and forced them to resort to such extreme steps", says the report.

who would harass a man with a gun?

[MohanG]

^^^

Now, that's an interesting question.

[HariC]

I


People say things about their organization assuming everyone else in the country is making merry. NCRB statistics reveal that the All India Suicide Rate in 2007 is 10.8 per 100,000{Remember, unlike in the military, a large number of suicides in the civilian world are not reported as such. Reason, complications in dealing with police, I guess.}. With a military of 1.2 million, the suicide rate is not much different than the rest of the population. And if you randomly choose a house to rent in a city like Bangalore, there is a fourfold chance that your neighbor will commit suicide as compared to a randomly chosen soldier in the Army. Suicide rate in Bangalore is 42.7

And just to be honest, we males are a weaker sex. Two-third of the suicides in the civilian world are committed by men. Almost all of the suicides in the military are by men. So man-to-man a civilian is about 60% more likely to commit a suicide than a soldier.

But aren't the other Armies doing better in preventing suicides? There are no 'status' problems there. Unlike our ungrateful nation, they love their soldiers. What are their suicide rates? Let's see. Canada: 12.2, France: 14, UK: 11, Russia: 30, US: 13 (out of 100,000).

Aha! US army has a rate of 13 when it is fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan so it is not difficult to understand. Indian Army is not facing the same level of stress. Gotcha!

No Sir, for US those were the rates for largely peaceful years 1980-1992. What about now? Say, 20 in 2008, despite the extensive effort made in psychological counseling.

Oh, damn the civilians! In western countries too they overlook the letters of Army Officers regarding the problems of their soldiers. Ya Allah!

Now who would have thought of this reasoning. We were supposed to believe that it is the apathy of civilian administration and the tough working conditions unique to the soldier class that are responsible for the deluge of suicides and fragging incidences. Guess what, civilians aint doing better either!

I just remembered what Admiral Nadkarni said:

Indians love scapegoats. How comforting to know that someone else is responsible for all one's inefficiency, ill luck and problems.

You are preachign to the choir. long ago shiv had a thread on suicides in Indian army in which he proved that the suicide rate was not too far away from the national rate.

Aha! US army has a rate of 13 when it is fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan so it is not difficult to understand. Indian Army is not facing the same level of stress. Gotcha!

and with what credentials do you pass the statement that the Indian Army is not facing the same level of stress? if you ask me their stress levels are even higher. The US soldiers operate from a safe distance, resort to UCAVs and air power , and employ lop sided firepower a luxury indian soldiers do not have. The US soldiers serves only an year tour of duty - and anyone who is stressed out is free to leave. The indian army soldier spends years on in a conflict area - and his pay and perks are no where near the national median as the US army soldier's pay is.

[HariC]

Btw that Pragmatic dude is just a frustrated babu whos venting out on the armed forces via his blog at every opportunity he gets. Someone posted why that idiot had an axe to grind on shiv's live fist (cant find it now, possibly deleted) so I doubt if anyone here takes him with anything but a buckt of salt.

[RayC]

RayC, the same approach taken by the IA to prove that T90 is the best tank since the German Tiger (!) and hence we have ordered a few thousand more of them. Or that we absolutely need a "foreign" air defence system - Akash is a piece of shit - and we order the SPYDER! there are numerous occasions when the services do take a fairly succesful bottoms up approach...In any case, I am completely in agreement with you on this - a special ops doctirne is in the domain of the civilian leadership. I only wish the services also showed some foresight in the matter and created a "bottoms up" pressure on them!

Somnath,

I wish you had served in the Army HQ.

When the 81mm Illuminating rounds were to be bought, a 'learned' IAS officer opined on file that history indicates that wars have been fought by day and thus the procurement was wasteful and it would save 'x' to the exchequer, which could be used elsewhere!!

Before the 1971 War, we had to buy Anti Tank Grenades. It was shot down by the IAS (expert on fighting wars) and the file went right up to the Defence Minister, Jagjivan Ram.

FM (then Gen) Maneckshaw just wrote on the file - my army will be nude!

That much for bottoms up!

We won 1971, since Yahyah was doing a different type of a bottoms up!

You are right. I wouldnt know a fraction of what you would on infantry (or arty/cavalry) tactics, but that does not take away the right to question on the basis of logic. Its finally its that, logic, and not faith, and so can be questioned!

Maybe.

I should question the heart surgeons who did the re-bypass on the PM and tell them that they are a wee bit out since I have surfed the internet!

I am sure that would be a fair thing, what?

Hundreds of millions of Indians suffer this apathy every day. Its unfortunate what happened to the jawan in your unit, but the apathy of the civic infrastructure is faced by Indians every day of their life! To somehow claim greater "burden" on account of being a serviceman is surely stretchign the point..

Indeed they do.

The only difference that you will not fathom is that the jawan has two months (annual leave) to run from pillar to post, while the others (civilians) have a whole lifetime!

One must understand the ground realities from theoretical and philosophical angles!

[RayC]

RayC,

With due respect, let's consider the importance of the place in the WoP as a measure of 'status'.

If a place in WoP is so important, then I would imagine no officer would like to work in the US military. Because, no matter how hard they work and how 'suitable' they are for a military job, even at the pinnacle of their career (as Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff) they would still be placed below more than a thousand civilians in the WoP.

And if the number of applicants, both for the soldier class and the officer class, is any indicator, it is not true that 'no damned son of a gun' is ready to fight for India. That the selection system (for the officer class) deems some applicants 'unworthy' does not mean citizens lack the 'jazba' to fight for our country.

I wonder if Admiral Mullen's wife considers him a wimp for being placed below a thousand civilians in the WoP. She must be jealous of our Army Chief's wife ! I don't know if she ever asked Admiral Mullen why he chose to work for US military under such a 'degraded' WoP.

I repeat - our military should get rid of its obsession about the WoP as a measure of 'status'. Clinging to WoP is likely to lead to more disappointments in the future.

As I said, I am not in competition with the US nor do I compare our situation with them since that will never converge. Their cultural background is different and so is their mindset.

My own are US citizens having migrated in 1971. Their values and approach to life is now way different to what it was when they were on Indian shores. Apples and oranges to use your style of expression, but my remains chalk and cheese.

So, there is no comparison!

They can invade countries without a qualm on their conscience since they feel that they must imprint the world with their ideas of freedom and democracy.

We can't even do so to imprint our ideas in our own country, let alone doing so elsewhere around our neighbourhood.

Culture and mindset!

"harassment and humiliation, which caused hurt to self-esteem and forced them to resort to such extreme steps".

Something that they should take it in their stride?

Yes, they should since humiliation and harassment is not a IA phenomenon alone. It is in the Indian workplace too.

However, could the DIPR (another fancy organisation that has no idea of ground realities) speak plainly as to what is 'humiliation and harassment'? If it is cuss words, man, even as a Brig I have heard it! Heard of a thing called Takiya Kalam = verbal crutch!

Now who would have thought of this reasoning. We were supposed to believe that it is the apathy of civilian administration and the tough working conditions unique to the soldier class that are responsible for the deluge of suicides and fragging incidences. Guess what, civilians aint doing better either!

The working conditions in the Armed Forces and especially the Army is as comfortable as a bakshee job at the UN. Happy?

Why don't you live a year up in the front? Maybe Siachen!

[Rahul M]

Then, of course, lack of basic amenities, paltry pay and allowances also play on their minds. But the jawans "gave lesser weight" to personal and family problems as compared to "harassment and humiliation, which caused hurt to self-esteem and forced them to resort to such extreme steps", says the report.

who would harass a man with a gun?

would a soldier carry his service INSAS into his village when on leave.

[RayC]

Then, of course, lack of basic amenities, paltry pay and allowances also play on their minds. But the jawans "gave lesser weight" to personal and family problems as compared to "harassment and humiliation, which caused hurt to self-esteem and forced them to resort to such extreme steps", says the report.

who would harass a man with a gun?
would a soldier carry his service INSAS into his village when on leave.

That would be the day when that happens.

Maybe some out here would realise the chaos it can cause, if not speed up the administration's efficiency!

[HariC]

If a place in WoP is so important, then I would imagine no officer would like to work in the US military. Because, no matter how hard they work and how 'suitable' they are for a military job, even at the pinnacle of their career (as Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff) they would still be placed below more than a thousand civilians in the WoP.

And if the number of applicants, both for the soldier class and the officer class, is any indicator, it is not true that 'no damned son of a gun' is ready to fight for India. That the selection system (for the officer class) deems some applicants 'unworthy' does not mean citizens lack the 'jazba' to fight for our country.

I wonder if Admiral Mullen's wife considers him a wimp for being placed below a thousand civilians in the WoP. She must be jealous of our Army Chief's wife ! I don't know if she ever asked Admiral Mullen why he chose to work for US military under such a 'degraded' WoP.

I repeat - our military should get rid of its obsession about the WoP as a measure of 'status'. Clinging to WoP is likely to lead to more disappointments in the future.

I was reading something about the New Illinois governor (he was the deputy governor till yesterday). it said that he attended every single funeral of a soldier killed in action who was from illinois in person. thats how much respect they get. Unless it is someone who is killed in a high visibile terrorist attack you dont get the same kind of attention in india.

moreover the crib is not just about the WoP. it is how over the years the feckless IAS babus have ingratiated themselves with the political classes and ensured that they slowly moved up in the WoP. just take the WoP from 1948-1950 and compare it with today and you will get the idea.

[MohanG]

You are preachign to the choir. long ago shiv had a thread on suicides in Indian army in which he proved that the suicide rate was not too far away from the national rate.

Sorry, I am a new member, I missed it.

and with what credentials do you pass the statement that the Indian Army is not facing the same level of stress? if you ask me their stress levels are even higher. The US soldiers operate from a safe distance, resort to UCAVs and air power , and employ lop sided firepower a luxury indian soldiers do not have. The US soldiers serves only an year tour of duty - and anyone who is stressed out is free to leave. The indian army soldier spends years on in a conflict area - and his pay and perks are no where near the national median as the US army soldier's pay is.

If the probability of dying on a given day when a soldier is on duty is an indicator of stress, then you would probably agree that US troops are under greater stress in the recent years.

However, my point was different: even when the US troops were at peace, they still had a suicide rate of 13 which is higher than the current suicide rate of 8.3 for the Indian troops. It means the 'suicide situation' in our military is not alarming. Not that we should not try to reduce it.

Pay comparison not including benefits:

Indian Sepoy's minimum Annual Pay after 6th CPC: (say) Rs 150,000 = about 3.5 times the per capital income of the country in 2007.

US soldier's minimum annual pay: $27,000 = about 0.6 times the per capital income of the country in 2007.

What national median are you talking of ? Please don't talk in a vacuum. Show me some hard figures.

Btw that Pragmatic dude is just a frustrated babu whos venting out on the armed forces via his blog at every opportunity he gets.

No idea about his/her identity. Just that he/she sometimes comes up with blogposts I find interesting.

would a soldier carry his service INSAS into his village when on leave.

Please read the ToI link.

[samsher]

Sorry not related to this discussion. Not sure the correct thread where I should post this, I figured this might be appropriate. (Also posted in a couple of other threads).

Does anyone have information on how one can be a part of the IA expedition to Siachen? specifically
- When are the expedition dates announced and when do you apply
- How do you apply (through the Army adventure cell?)
- What is the selection process

info regarding any of this is really appreciated.

Thanks,

[Abhi_G]

would a soldier carry his service INSAS into his village when on leave.

Please read the ToI link.

Where does it say that soldiers carry guns on leave?

[MohanG]

Why don't you live a year up in the front? Maybe Siachen!

People should be able to come up with better arguments.

Maybe they are not so educated as you, and are down to earth. Are you a PhD?

If one makes such arguments, one can also expect to hear sentiments like, "Please solve the stochastic calculus equation for a particular credit derivative", or "please work as a window cleaner in a high rise building", or "please solve the a particular low-torque problem occurring repeatedly with the engine of an aircraft", or "please negotiate our trade agreement at WTO", or "please make a wildlife conservation plan for (say) Ranthambhore", or "please make a design for a particular high-level bridge near Udhampur for Indian Railways" etc. etc. There are hazaar things one won't be able to do.

Not ones fault, one may not be trained for these activities.
It will be sad if one express doubts over some statements a so-called 'specialist' makes, one encounters not only his indignation at not being taken at his word but also sullen questioning of the type "Can you do X or Y?"

But the essences is ''Can you to do X or Y".

Is there any other way out?

I can't fly an airplane. I have flown helicopters. So, am I the best judge on the issue?

I have never been a Foreign Minister, but I am tolerably quite clued up about it. But am I as good as Pranab Mukherjee?

[RayC]

You are preachign to the choir. long ago shiv had a thread on suicides in Indian army in which he proved that the suicide rate was not too far away from the national rate.

Sorry, I am a new member, I missed it.

and with what credentials do you pass the statement that the Indian Army is not facing the same level of stress? if you ask me their stress levels are even higher. The US soldiers operate from a safe distance, resort to UCAVs and air power , and employ lop sided firepower a luxury indian soldiers do not have. The US soldiers serves only an year tour of duty - and anyone who is stressed out is free to leave. The indian army soldier spends years on in a conflict area - and his pay and perks are no where near the national median as the US army soldier's pay is.

If the probability of dying on a given day when a soldier is on duty is an indicator of stress, then you would probably agree that US troops are under greater stress in the recent years.

However, my point was different: even when the US troops were at peace, they still had a suicide rate of 13 which is higher than the current suicide rate of 8.3 for the Indian troops. It means the 'suicide situation' in our military is not alarming. Not that we should not try to reduce it.

Pay comparison not including benefits:

Indian Sepoy's minimum Annual Pay after 6th CPC: (say) Rs 150,000 = about 3.5 times the per capital income of the country in 2007.

US soldier's minimum annual pay: $27,000 = about 0.6 times the per capital income of the country in 2007.

What national median are you talking of ? Please don't talk in a vacuum. Show me some hard figures.

Btw that Pragmatic dude is just a frustrated babu whos venting out on the armed forces via his blog at every opportunity he gets.

No idea about his/her identity. Just that he/she sometimes comes up with blogposts I find interesting.

would a soldier carry his service INSAS into his village when on leave.

Please read the ToI link.

There was a thread on the psychological and physiological reasons for Security Forces fragging and suicides. Somehow, maybe it was too technical, it is no longer active. Those who are studying the issue have no clue of ground realities and base it on the opinions of those who they interview and treat.

I have found in my, heaven knows how many years of service, that if a man is listened to patiently and then explained as to why one is taking a decision the way he is, the man is satisfied, even if it does not go his way!

I am not too sure if the US soldier has more stress than the Indian one. The US soldier can shoot down anyone and still get away, but if an Indian one shoots, then there is the Army Courts of Inquiry and then the Human Rights and then the Courts. Who is under greater stress?

[Rahul M]

Does anyone have information on how one can be a part of the IA expedition to Siachen?
..................
Thanks,

I think the army adventure cell would be the best bet.

also, since the first instance had NDTV personnel, may be vishnu might know the details.
(if he can be located around these parts that is !)

alternatively you can identify the NDTV reporter from the TV segment and find her email from their website.

[Rahul M]

MohanG, which TOI link ??
I suppose there are millions of TOI links and you mean only one ??
or do you want me to read all of them ?? (not sure I'll survive such an ordeal)

[MohanG]

Abhi_G,

I think the question was "who would harass a man with a gun". My suggestion was to read the ToI report. The first paragraph gives a hint.

HariC,

Don't get taken in by the funeral attendances by US politicians. There are reports of high homelessness rates amongst US veterans. You could search online. Obama stressed on this issue in his campaign.

About WoP. What changes from 1947 till now do you grudge? Moving constitutional authorities above service chiefs, or moving the Cabinet Secretary above service chiefs? What else has got changed? Where, in your opinion should the Service Chiefs be placed? Have you looked at the case in Britain {which is a country closest to us in the form of governance}? Where are the senior military officers placed as compared to senior civil service officers in their Senior Executive Service? Where are they placed compared to the politicians? How many posts are considered senior government posts in UK? How many of them are civil posts, how many military? How do they stand in proportion to the size of the civilian workforce and the military workforce? Is the Cabinet Secretary (in UK) senior or junior to the CDS?

My dear Sir, don't believe my words or the words of military officers. Do some of your own research.

Rahul M,

The same link as in my original post. Sorry, I called it Source there. Here it is again.

----

My last post got inadvertently edited by the moderator. So here is the original post:

Why don't you live a year up in the front? Maybe Siachen!

People should be able to come up with better arguments.

If one makes such arguments, one can also expect to hear sentiments like, "Please solve the stochastic calculus equation for a particular credit derivative", or "please work as a window cleaner in a high rise building", or "please solve the a particular low-torque problem occurring repeatedly with the engine of an aircraft", or "please negotiate our trade agreement at WTO", or "please make a wildlife conservation plan for (say) Ranthambhore", or "please make a design for a particular high-level bridge near Udhampur for Indian Railways" etc. etc. There are hazaar things one won't be able to do.

Not ones fault, one may not be trained for these activities.

It will be sad if one express doubts over some statements a so-called 'specialist' makes, one encounters not only his indignation at not being taken at his word but also sullen questioning of the type "Can you do X or Y?"

[Rahul M]

Stress and the Indian Jawan.

[HariC]

MohanG here are some hard numbers for you.

A subedar in the Indian Army with 28 years of service will get 21,080 per month or about 2,50,000 Rs per annum.
try living in a medium town for a familiy of four. best of luck with getting some good education for your kids. http://www.indianmilitary.info/2008/08/ ... rears.html

A Sgt Major in the US Army with 21 years of service will get $84,793.92 USD per annum. Which is PRETTY comfortable for an average US family.
http://www.dod.mil/cgi-bin/rmc.pl (enter E9, 21 Years of service)

Look at the opportunities available for the Subedar in India vs the Sgt major in the US. now tell me, the Sgt Major has undergone more stress than the Indian subedar and I will believe pigs fly too.