Indian political class and babudom ...ashish raval wrote:Sridhar, Where did I put Indians Down !!! Why would I put myself down ! What I am trying to tell here is we have to be honest in admiring a stronger enemy and there is no harm in replicating their success in our country too. Stronger enemy does not mean that we have to look other way and try to belittle them. If they can look and come down in India and learn how to replicate our success in China's IT sector what stops us to do the same !
Vinod Ji, when I specifically address a person, I expect a reply from him/her and I am sure that person is perfectly capable of explaining himself/herself.Vinod Ji wrote:I don't see him putting India down.SSridhar wrote:ashish raval, while you are perfectly entitled to admire the Chinese, you don't need to put India and Indians down unnecessarily.
For some reason I expect someone living in London and going on about the glory of Britain and the English language to use better English grammar than full stops after exclamation marks or plurals with apostrophes or capitalizing grandfather and failing to capitalize English or putting "were" after a singular noun.You stop finger pointing. Literacy level in India in 1947 were 12.2 % and even my Grandfather knew how to write and speak english so stop peddling BS. J.C.Bose did not learned how to make wireless by reading Veda's. Neither did he communicated with Einstein in Sanskrit. Could you explain to me what they taught in Village education centres in 1800's in India !! Certainly not how to make steam engine's right !!. Give the due where it is necessary. Indians did not go to England to learn english comeback and teach rest of Indians it was british people who taught english to Indian born english, anglo-indians and wealthy Indians and later missionaries did it.
Think of all our belongings languishing in British museums. We should do the same.China is ratcheting up pressure for imperial treasures to be repatriated, condemning overseas auctions of its relics and demanding they come home.
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China's drive to recover the heads has alarmed Western museums and auction houses, who are also sparring with Greece, Italy and other nations over the return of art treasures.
ashish raval, your unnecessary references to the Vedas and Sanskrit are unacceptable. They are treasures of our land, whether one likes them or not. And, they are irrelevant to the issue being discussed. After saying that, you give lecture on why we should not admire the Chinese ?ashish raval wrote:Sridhar, Where did I put Indians Down !!! Why would I put myself down ! What I am trying to tell here is we have to be honest in admiring a stronger enemy and there is no harm in replicating their success in our country too. Stronger enemy does not mean that we have to look other way and try to belittle them. If they can look and come down in India and learn how to replicate our success in China's IT sector what stops us to do the same !
you really have no idea.ashish raval wrote:The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries). Otherwise we are behind chinese in every aspect which requires imagination.
ask anyone in academia who has to read papers coming out of the mainland and you will get an idea of the state of higher education in the PRC.no doubt the PRC economy is far ahead at the moment.China makes everything for world right from panty liners to providing rare metals for US precision weapons to fuel cell batteries of next-generation cars.
I don't have access to any academics or to Chinese research papers but I'm very curious about this. What is wrong with their publications?you really have no idea.
I am sure it's not a race issue, but it most certainly is a social or cultural issue in a habitually autocratic country.
Seriously speaking, I have to agree with raval. Without English, India would have been really far behind China. I guess if we compare Bollywood with Chinese cinema, we are ahead, but HK cinema I am not so sure. Over in the West, they don't really like sing and dance movies. This really turns them off! I mean we have good actors, good plot and cinematics and then booosshh the serious hero starts to sing. I have seen my colleagues laugh the hell out when that happens!Rahul M wrote:you really have no idea.ashish raval wrote:The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries). Otherwise we are behind chinese in every aspect which requires imagination.
I am sure it's not a race issue, but it most certainly is a social or cultural issue in a habitually autocratic country.no doubt the PRC economy is far ahead at the moment.China makes everything for world right from panty liners to providing rare metals for US precision weapons to fuel cell batteries of next-generation cars.
but of the commodities you mention, which are exactly cutting edge ones developed in china ?
whatever high technology items are produced in china is done by MNCs using their own tech.
..... well at least they have research papers in Chinese too, I haven't seen one in Hindi. As a civilization, we need to start doing things in our own language, else our language will never advance.Constructing one of the world's tallest building requires cutting edge technology in Architecture, Civil Engineering, Mechanical engineering and human comfort engineering. Running Maglev, high speed rails, maintaining massive influx of people in railway stations, Olympic size stadiums, developing ICBM's and drilling own oil rigs requires cutting edge technology too. This cannot be done by people who dont know what is cutting edge. MNC's use their own tech in whichever countries they operate be it India, China or even Brazil. What I am saying is that they have been successful in mass producing and exporting products while we are still learning. We have to quickly adapt if we want to eat their piece of cake because if we dont they will eat our piece of cake in IT and ITES.Rahul M wrote:Show me one International journal (Science and Mathematics and not IT) where Indian technical writers have produced more papers in any issue. I want to get enlightened on it.ashish raval wrote:you really have no idea.
I am sure it's not a race issue, but it most certainly is a social or cultural issue in a habitually autocratic country.no doubt the PRC economy is far ahead at the moment.
but of the commodities you mention, which are exactly cutting edge ones developed in china ?
whatever high technology items are produced in china is done by MNCs using their own tech
maglev --> siemens, germany.Running Maglev, high speed rails, maintaining massive influx of people in railway stations, Olympic size stadiums, developing ICBM's
is equally stupid.The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries). Otherwise we are behind chinese in every aspect which requires imagination.
the boom in research papers from china that everyone talks about came after a massive funding effort in early 2000's dictated by the communist leadership. one fallout of that was a requirement that every chinese student has to publish papers in journals with a cumulative impact factor of 4.0 to get Ph.D. now this is not an unreasonable demand, any standard journal, even those in 'not so popular' subjects have an IF of at least 2-2.5, so two standard papers during a 4-5 year PhD would suffice.S.Gautam wrote: I don't have access to any academics or to Chinese research papers but I'm very curious about this. What is wrong with their publications?
oh yes, the moksha of Indian movies is to get a pat on the head from the west !Prasanth wrote: Seriously speaking, I have to agree with raval. Without English, India would have been really far behind China. I guess if we compare Bollywood with Chinese cinema, we are ahead, but HK cinema I am not so sure. Over in the West, they don't really like sing and dance movies. This really turns them off! I mean we have good actors, good plot and cinematics and then booosshh the serious hero starts to sing. I have seen my colleagues laugh the hell out when that happens!
Regarding the level of English in China, even in academic circles,
never disputed that. what I disagreed with I've highlighted above.ashish raval wrote:So when you talk about IT from where did we got on IT bandwagon ! Which company of India develops Microsoft, Linux, Oracle, DB2, Mac OS ! Everything comes from west or goes to west. Same way Chinese have learnt things to build and in a few years time they will build on their own while the same Siemens and Swiss company will come 10-15 years down the line and build those infrastructure in India.
and btw, I personally never did talk of IT.The only place India is ahead of chinese is English, movie making and IT (thanks to britain and visionaries). Otherwise we are behind chinese in every aspect which requires imagination.
qauntity != quality. I think I've already mentioned that china does produce more papers and PhD's than India. but the quality in general is really awful.Show me one International journal (Science and Mathematics and not IT) where Indian technical writers have produced more papers in any issue. I want to get enlightened on it.
I don't think they developed any new tech at all for the past century. The point is they are systematically absorbing all the latest tech and have shown a fair bit of innovation with it. You can shut China up now and it will still be able to make that maglev and ICBM, the industrial bases are there. Notice that they are always concentrating on the tech, rather than imorting the product. It's always how to fish not the fish. They are the masters in reverse engineering.Rahul M wrote:Running Maglev, high speed rails, maintaining massive influx of people in railway stations, Olympic size stadiums, developing ICBM's
maglev --> siemens, germany.
olympic stadium --> swiss
ICBM --> jump started full tech transfer from russia including manufacturing equipment.
Amen!harbans wrote:Impressive Mr Roy! I concur
Acharya san can speak for himself but IMHO the problem he was alluding to was one of legitimacy. Whilst it is easy to paint as illegitimate the unrepresentative, autocratic and self-serving CPC in cheena, its woefully hard to paint yindia as an oppressive impe-realist power-hungry hegemon without, errr, sounding packee.Jarita wrote:Was that what Acharya meant by India is a deeper problem for the US than either TSP or PRC
ramana wrote:Jarita to explain all tha would take a very long post. Please take it as an axiom. Its not US the country, but, US the leader of the West that has the problem.
nicely explained.Hari Seldon wrote:..........
And stripping Yindia of legitimacy takes a serious toll on cred, IMHO.
whereas we will chart our own independent path. This is what scares the west.
we can innovate . china does not want to. this means that china is already calibrated. we are not.
1) I am not belittling India, but launching 10 lightweight satellites is not really an innovation nor ground breaking tech. The point is our payload is at least two times less than Chinese payload. US do not send 10 small sats at once, but that doesn't mean they can't, it's just that commercial sats weight something like 2-3 tonnes per unit. India was launching mostly research sats weighing less than 100kg.D Roy wrote:excuse me, who launched 10 satellites in one go?
who sent a probe to the moon on a shoe string budget that discovered water among other things?
who leads the world in thorium tech? who is building a commercial grade FBR?
who moves 18 million passengers on a single day on its rail system?
who is the first country in the world to set up a nationwide realtime reservation ticketing net?
who evacuated its citizens during the first gulf war in what was the greatest air evacuation in history at the time?
who did operation Sukoon and whose ships helped during the Indian ocean Tsunami?
who actually was a pioneer in the test tube baby?
Who manages the world's greatest democratic exercise on a scale unprecedented in history?
This last refers to a far greater achievement than a stadium or managing crowds during the olympics. ( we do a Kumbh mela also remember?) As far as the 13 km Maglev is concerned many countries in the world operate such systems albeit capable of slower top speeds. it is a showpiece and is disliked by the shanghai people themselves. it has very little utility and is just part of the commie arriviste culture. even pakistan can set up a demonstration project on a few lines. we can too. its just not that easy to waste public money on mega projects in India without some NGO bindiwalli turning up with a Lal Jhandaa. And sometimes that can even be a good thing.
And all this even as potential JC Bose's have left India for foreign shores and India has been denied even standard technology such as instrumentation tech for oil exploration in the name of limiting dual use tech transfers.
India is creating IP even with the best having gone abroad. I sincerely hope they come back. In any case India has a almost one to one mapping with the US in terms of ongoing sci/tech development programs
China can copy all it likes but at the end of the day it will just end up becoming a good/ bad copy of the US.
whereas we will chart our own independent path. This is what scares the west.
we can innovate . china does not want to. this means that china is already calibrated. we are not.
all Indians need to stick together.
Good points. You are 400% correct that GoI needs to develop ability to execute (largest number of executions, more than the rest of the world combined and doubled) happen in PRC. And land 'rights' aren't rights when they can be taken away at any time by the gubmint. As for environmental record, the point isn't that crap doesn't happen in Yindia but that there are at least some checks and balances in place.Hari,
The Indian rupee has a lower value than yuan and Indian workers are also cheaper. Why didn't we turn into an export machine and horde forex? Again it lies in their ability to execute. FYI, I do not find Indian environmental record any better yet we are not as developed as them. In Mumbai, I smell crap, in Shanghai I smell carbon coal. That's the diff!
Land rights? In India, how many of the farmers actually own the land they tilt? In China, due to their land reforms, every farmer has got land. That's why they have property rights to be infringed upon. What about our farmers?
please?Mandarin for Dhimmies
1) I am not belittling India, but launching 10 lightweight satellites is not really an innovation nor ground breaking tech. The point is our payload is at least two times less than Chinese payload. US do not send 10 small sats at once, but that doesn't mean they can't, it's just that commercial sats weight something like 2-3 tonnes per unit. India was launching mostly research sats weighing less than 100kg.
2) Again, I do not have to repeat myself. It was an AMERICAN instrument that discovered water and prior missions sent by America had already detected minute trace of water. Chandrayaan confirmed it in larger quantities. Shoe string? Half the instruments were from foreign countries...you do the math.
3) Nobody is pursuing thorium because only India has viable reserves near the coast. India is not the leader in FBR and it had not been commercialized yet. The origin of FBR tech? I have no idea, but isn't it a coincidence Russia has it in a more advanced form. If nobody has FBR and India has it, thats called groundbreaking and pioneering. Russia is the leader in FBR and last I read, they are selling their most advanced tech to China in a collaboration to 'commercialize it'.
4) The pioneer of test tube tech was the UK. The first test tube baby was born there.
5) Nationwide reservation ticketing system? I am not sure, but I don't think we were the first, assuming computer were available in the west first. We can claim to be the first and make you happy but logics tell me a different thing.
The Chinese have their own:
1) 3G tech standards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD-SCDMA
2) Digital TV tech standards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMB-T/H
3) Wireless encryption tech standards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLAN_Authe ... astructure
Do we have any of these? These are not copied tech, but different systems altogether and you know what is shocking, it's all completed and in use! They do not boast before the thing is done.
The truth is, we had not develop any groundbreaking tech, most of our pride stem from the fact that there are many lower cost Indian scientific workers overseas. Now you understand the significance of English? Imagine the Chinese could speak English as good as us and send their scientist in droves to be researchers and lecturers in the West.
Can you tell me what IP India created? Last year China became one of the top 10 patent applicant in the World. Huawei is the biggest patent applicant on earth overtaking Philips.
That's the point. We definitely can do it. I think we Indians are as smart if not smarter than the Chinese. The difference lies in their ability to plan, organize and execute. We always fail in the execution part.
Standards define a technology. And now they have both. I do not think it's a simple case of using existing research paper. What they are doing is complex and unique but not groundbreaking. We have not done anything, so we cannot judge it's merit.
Hari,
The Indian rupee has a lower value than yuan and Indian workers are also cheaper. Why didn't we turn into an export machine and horde forex? Again it lies in their ability to execute. FYI, I do not find Indian environmental record any better yet we are not as developed as them. In Mumbai, I smell crap, in Shanghai I smell carbon coal. That's the diff!
Land rights? In India, how many of the farmers actually own the land they tilt? In China, due to their land reforms, every farmer has got land. That's why they have property rights to be infringed upon. What about our farmers?
you missed the point.
When did they become so generous as to share the space? Would be interested to know who..SSridhar wrote:A well-known Chinese scholar said that it is the Chinese belief that only two nations can occupy the Heavens, one China and the other India. All the others will be below them. It is a civilizational belief.