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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 06:56 
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Quote:


Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 06:58 
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maitya wrote:
Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed :oops: ).


There is this report from Shiv Aroor. Well not report as such but does give some info.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 07:28 
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shiv wrote:
Quote:


Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:



Not living in US, but Canada is not that far away hence would like to add my opinion.

As far as jingoism is concerned, in a society where all these cultures/immigrants/religions/nationalities coexist (like US/Canada), it is not possible to survive without loving your nation and your type. Even people who couldn't care less about what was happening in India while they were living in India, are forced to change when they immigrate. The social dynamics are such that there is "segregation within integration."

Hence, IMO, you should not worry about us "ass licking" goras. In fact, nowadays, it is quite the opposite.

We try to act as ambassadors of our nation and do our best to project the best of it to the world. On a social level, there is mutual respect between both groups (Australia is the only exception).

No disrespect but it is very easy to come here and criticize, but I personally know many Indians (students/politicians/lawyers/doctors) that consistently endeavour for greater cooperation between India and the west. This "image" of India in the local population is what leads to more FDIs and JVs which drive the Indian economy.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 07:32 
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shiv wrote:
Quote:


Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:


I dont know about the regular run of the mill - strat stuff - but on this particular subject - I am in touch with a couple of famlilies involvied in tracking down these crash sites and they have been fairly appreciateive and grateful of the cooperation extended by India - and access to the restricted areas (most of the crash sites are in the NE which are restricted to the phoreners . if any they seem to be quite critical of the US government for not doing as much as they should.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 08:17 
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maitya wrote:

Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?

Only time will tell I guess!! :P


My guess is that the outrageous $ 40 million price tag is as much a result of French weapon/missile prices as the cost of the upgrade itself! The upgrade in terms of the aircraft in itself hardly seems anything groundbreaking.

The IAF is probly looking at Micas and Asraams in 100s, perhaps even 1000s. Sipri shows that the IAF bought 200 Super 530Ds and 1500 Magics! I mean even the Paf bought 500 Amraams for their 40 odd solahs. Each Mica iirc - is supposedly upwards of $ 4 million a piece (including program costs I guess/hope)! Still, it won't be less than $ 1-2 million no matter how we look at it. The Asraam is another $ 0.5 million per piece.

My guess is just these weapons will cost India close to $ 500-1000 million. And that is not including any A2G weapons.

Another concern - iirc, the French were on record saying that it'll take 2 years to upgrade the first 2 aircraft, which will then be followed up by HAL doing the rest at a better pace, 2-3 per month. So, a fleet of upgraded M2k-5/9s does not seem likely before 2015!

CM

Edited for corrections!


Last edited by Cain Marko on 28 Feb 2010 09:01, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 08:30 
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shiv wrote:
Quote:


Sorry. OT

Can I ask those living in the US - do you ever see a news item that says "India appreciates US moves on xyz"?

If not, don't you think this sort of headline (Gora praises me and my kind) is the kind of ass licking servility that is typical of Indians?). maybe for pisko thread.. :roll:


We cannot expect news items - as in news paper reports. The reporters themselves may or may not understand the import of such a situation.

However, I am more than sure that ANY vet, a vet org or armed forces person would appreciate it. This could actually become a great PR item for India in a positive way. Let us see what we can do with this news item.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 09:30 
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It seems that the order for 50 extra MKI might have been dropped. Upon questioning, AM Barbora stated in an interview (with an unmentionable rag) that the IAF expects to have 230 MKI by 2018!

CM.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 09:34 
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OK so the "US appreciates" news item is misleading at the very least because it fails to acknowledge the specific groups who are grateful while it credits the entire nation with being grateful. There is a difference and the news item appears to be in the genre of "XYZ dosa stall is very popular. Even foreigners come there"


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 13:19 
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Order for additional MKIs not being dropped but wont be made another media circus when Putin comes , instructions to keep defense purchase low key affair str8 from top .


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 14:00 
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satya wrote:
Order for additional MKIs not being dropped but wont be made another media circus when Putin comes , instructions to keep defense purchase low key affair str8 from top .



Which "top"?? ours or ........


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 16:10 
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maitya wrote:
Quite a bit has been written about this M2K upgrade, but have not seen a single site/news-item/report that chronicles the exact subsystems being made part of this upagrade (I used to have a a few bits of nuggets in my HDD, before it crashed :oops: ).

However there's has been some confirmatory comments like,
Quote:
“Under the upgrade, the entire airframe will be stripped down to be re-wired and re-equipped with new avionics, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites and of course weapon systems to extend and enhance the operational life of the multi-role fighters.”

but never a comprehensive list of the subsystems that is being made part of this upgrade.

So here's another attempt: 8)
1) Radar - RDY MK2
2) New Missile system - MICA (including IR version)
3) Countermeasure - Integrated countermeasures system (ICMS) Mk4 from Thomson-CSF
4) Navigation - Sextant Avionique’s Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS
5) Datalink - Joint tactical information data link system (JTIDS)
6) HMS - Topsight E helmet-mounted sight/display
7) Cockpit Display and MC - Rafale's MDPU
8 ) A brand new 1553 digibus

But nothing really new to the AG capability - IAF seems to be happy with their Litening-II pods.

Also no confirmation on,
1) any active or passive MAWS - atleast DDM-SAMIR/DDM-NG type IR based system
2) any internal SPJ
3) no IRST system (this is confirmed)

So, prima facie, this French-Indian consortium including Dassault (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator), MBDA (missiles) and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited based upgrade is a very very comprehensive upgrade (specially on the AA areas).

Now, my pet peeve - is it still worth $40mil/aircraft upgrade?

Only time will tell I guess!! :P


to add to your comprehensive list- I think, though this is just my opinion, that the airframe may be strengthened as well to add hard-points. This Mirage-2000 layout shows the number of hard-points on the Mirage-2000H/TH and this pic shows the number of hard-points on the -5. The -2000H has one of these hard-points rated for ~200kg to carry a LDP, but it may be beefed up to carry an AAM and its pylon in addition to adding another to the other side.

in addition, it may also feature an OBOGS (which was added to the Mirage-2000-5 Mk2), greatly increasing the mission duration for the Mirages, which currently depend on carrying oxygen tanks, which dictate mission duration, rather than the fighter's endurance or pilot fatigue.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 16:53 
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Vayu Shakti is being telecasted on DD National if possible somebody record it


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 17:10 
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DDM correspondant on *NDTV* looks at a leaflet and says...

Soon we will have the Mirage 27's and the Sooo's [apparently referring to the Sukhoi's].. :rotfl: & major :roll:

If there is one branch where you can do half a job and still get paid for it, its definitely 'DDM journalism'...


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 18:39 
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Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
day & dusk phase is over, night phase will commence shortly.

so far:
searcher-II feed made available to DD - it is easily able to track moving ac below it
surya kirans
sarang
1 x Jag drops LGB from 13,000ft
2 x Mi35 rocket attack on tanks
1 x Mi17 gSh gun pod attack on troops
1 x Mi17 with Garud launches gun attack via windows
1 x Mi17 drops a garud gypsy which drives to target and places charges, before returning, "radar" blows
up a few mins later
heavy cargo pallet drop from IL76
2 x AN32 drop 15 para/garud/marcos each
1 x MKI aeriel display (same one in which president flew recently) - flat spin, tail slide, vertical
charlie, very slow tvc fwd flight ....

I think night phase will have some serious heavy bombing. IN chief looks absent, must be busy
with the bay of bengal exercise. president patil is there. pretty solid bundobust with band playing
and white liveried staff serving tea and snacks to all.

DD cameras are much better compared to 10 yrs ago when it was shaky footage of clouds of smoke
in the distance, here it was able to follow the LGB all the way down....LGB seems to oscillate a bit
around its midpoint like see-saw...but did score a direct hit.

searcher footage from above also makes the targets and hits very clear.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:19 
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Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
Night phase - pls save this post for future fight club sessions.

to aid viewers, ac had nav & anti collision lights on and released flares to indicate weapons drop.
the compere explained this would ofcourse not be done in real life.

target 12 - enemy radar and C3I outfit
224 sq "warlords" 1 x Jag Darin2
4 x 1000lb CCIP
500 ft level drop

target 13 - power grid yard
30 sq "Rhinos" 1 x Su30MKI
N x 1800kg bomb
3000ft level drop
(seemed like 6-10 explosions on searcher feed)

target 14 - C3I node
32 sq "thunderbird" 1 x Bison
2 x 250kg bomb

target 15 - armour colomn
224 sq "warlords" 1 x Jag Darin2
4 x 1000lb CCIP
3000ft, 20' dive

target 16 - C3I node
7 sq "Battleaxe" Mirage2K-2 seater
1 x Paveway LGB, self lased from LDP
15000ft level
30 seq drop time to impact

target 17 - Terrorist camp picked up by UAV
30 sq - "Rhinos" - 1 x Su30 MKI
26 x 250lb bomb :eek: (must be the "claw rack" thing)
3000ft level - this was definitely the biggest hit... a brown khaki job

target 18 - Mech convoy
12 sq "Striking Yaks" 1 x AN32
10 x 1000lb :twisted:
1800 ft x 400 kmph ingress and level drop, egress at 450kmph
announcer said they "specialized in bombing" :shock:

finally a 3 plane display formation Embraer Legacy, AN32 and IL76 from
Agra, Palam and Nagpur who flew at 1500ft line astern and released
huge number of flares

unlike the oil drum explosions used in movies, real explosives create very little flame
just a dense cloud of black smoke and dust. no napalm was used in this exercise, usually
they let a stick of bisons drop napalm for show but not this time...maybe napalm is
outlawed or something...


Last edited by Singha on 28 Feb 2010 19:30, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:22 
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I hope one selfless soul recorded it for us :((


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:24 
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hopefully Shiv was on the job and not playing golf and guzzling beer at the KSGA clubhouse saying "who me?" :lol:

if all else fails, hopefully shiv aroor would be able to obtain the footage ...


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:35 
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Later, theatre commander was informed about the only partial destruction of targe 2 and target 15 - thru uav feed.

a su mki is sent to destroy the remains of target 2 and 15.

later dhruv arrives with a messenger from garuda force runs to the podium and delivers a pic taken by su to be presented to the president. ACM P V Nayak presents the pic and a memento to the Prez.

National Anthem and Call it Vayu Shakti 2010


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:41 
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@Surya , i have recorded it but not full ,suryakiran display ,little sarang display ,sukhoi 30 acrobats and the night bombing i will upload them later and put it you tube by tomorrow , ok here is the problem whole night bombing has taken up 300 mb ,what to do ?


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:44 
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Location: General Error : Bhery Phamous General !
caught the No7 sqdn mirage strike onwards. program ended with

night landing of ALH (sarang livery) on a spot lit up by a Mi-17 with searchlight. the dhruv carried a garud force Fl Lt who presented to the ACM a framed picture of the dignitaries taken earlier by the mki during a fly-by.

between the embraer/An-32/IL-76 fly-by (I think it was the IL-78 btw) and the dhruv landing two targets that had not been destroyed completely (BDA by searcher) were hit again by two mki's with a large number of 250kg bombs (I forgot the count).
the commentator said it was an UAV assisted fighter strike.(UAFS)

from whatever little I got this was an very impressive demo. the way the aircrafts were easily visible on the searchers flying above was incredible !

karan ji, aapke munh mein ghee sakkar !


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:57 
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karan

a thousand thanks

only care about bombing runs and searcher feeds :) (need to correlate to non public info from few yrs ago)

hopefully we full bombing runs - all the ones Singha mentioned (day, dusk , night) - aerobatics is for the civilians :mrgreen:

every MB is valuable - so don't lose it :) - probably would split it and upload it one of the free ftp sites

unless others have better idea


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 19:59 
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karan_mc wrote:
@Surya , i have recorded it but not full ,suryakiran display ,little sarang display ,sukhoi 30 acrobats and the night bombing i will upload them later and put it you tube by tomorrow , ok here is the problem whole night bombing has taken up 300 mb ,what to do ?


Can you split it using compression software like winrar (with out splitting the video) and upload it in file sharing website like rapidshare


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:02 
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No damn announcement from DD the buffoons! Anyhow I got some beautiful night pictures - aircraft seen by the light of flares from DD. Got some other stuff off both DD and Headlines Today. I am sure there will be more. Can Vishnu be far behind? If anyone finds out about any new telecast please tell me.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:06 
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This time even the Cluster bombs (BL755??) were not used


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:17 
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Headlines today link 6 parts..

clicky


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:17 
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What They Did At Vayu Shakti
Image


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:17 
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weren't cluster bombs going to get outlawed or something? also, their primary effective usage is against troop convoys in open areas - rather than 500kg iron dropped down the musharraf of a cowering jehadi... which is far more fashionable these days


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:22 
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Lalmohan wrote:
weren't cluster bombs going to get outlawed or something? also, their primary effective usage is against troop convoys in open areas - rather than 500kg iron dropped down the musharraf of a cowering jehadi... which is far more fashionable these days


Convention on Cluster Munitions
India did not sign the treaty


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:23 
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India is not a signatory to ban cluster bombs..

Griggin LGB :twisted:


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:28 
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Location: Satte pe satta satte pe soot; Pakistan ki m@ ki ....
Key points:

1. Jags dropping a Griffin LGB (I wasn't sure if IAF had Griffins too)
2. An-32 dropping 10*1000lb bombs
3. MKI 26*250kg NTU (how many sorties ? ) :eek:


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:36 
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yes Negi - there is a old Su30 photo on BR from the bottom showing the "Claw racks" holding the small bombs. that time I had counted around 20 possible, but newer racks may permit more. and looks like
250 KG not Lb per the board. 6.5 tons in a single sortie.

the "partially damaged" targets and 2nd strike must have been part of the program to show the C3I loop and response cycle. theres always going to be partially damaged targets left to beat up 8)

the part I loved was the searcher tracking the surya kirans and the MKI doing aerobatics. the depth
perception of how high the a/c is flying was not there but the a/c themselves were quite easily in focus.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... /SB121.jpg

looking at pic, it can carry 8 small bombs on each wing (4 +4 on the inboard pylons) for a total of 16.
the rest 10 are carried below the fuselage. even on outermost (3rd pylon) it might carry 1 each and 8 under fuselage.

:lol:


Last edited by Singha on 28 Feb 2010 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:40 
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BETAB anti-runway bomb
http://i.flamber.ru/files/st1/121192255 ... 0130_o.jpg


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:40 
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What are BETAB? Just saw 4 being fired by Rambha, they deployed parachute and then fired a rocket to dig deep in to ground.

Ahhh thanks!


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:42 
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IAF displays fire power prowess at Vayu Shakti-2010 - PIB


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:45 
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sunilUpa wrote:
What are BETAB? Just saw 4 being fired by Rambha, they deployed parachute and then fired a rocket to dig deep in to ground.

Ahhh thanks!


BetAB-150/-250/-500 Penetration Bombs (Russian Federation), Bombs - Unguided

www.janes.com wrote:
This family of penetration bombs was developed to give Russian and allied air forces a capability of attacking concrete and hardened structures such as airfield runways, concrete shelters, dams, sluices and other solid objects. Before the 1990s, the only known bombs in this family were the BetAB-150 DS and the BetAB-250. However, in the early 1990s limited details were released on two larger and more up to date bombs designated BetAB-500 and BetAB-500 ShP. The designation letters BetAB stand for betonoboynaya aviatsionnaya bomba meaning 'concrete-piercing aircraft bomb'. The designation numbers refer to the bomb size category, and any further letters signify special applications. The BetAB-500 ShP was primarily developed for cratering airfield runways and is delivered at low level and high speed. It is thought that this bomb is rocket-assisted which could account for the ShP designation. All the bombs are designed to withstand the high g forces encountered by combat manoeuvres of high-speed attack aircraft, and are fitted with standard Russian spaced suspension lugs allowing them to be carried under the wings or fuselage of some aircraft, or in the bomb bays of larger bombers. The bombs are believed to be cleared for carriage on MiG-21 'Fishbed', MiG-27 'Flogger', MiG-29 'Fulcrum', Su-22 'Fitter', Su-24 'Fencer', Su-25 'Frogfoot', Su-27 'Flanker', Tu-95 'Bear', Tu-16 'Badger', Tu-22 'Blinder' and Tu-22M 'Backfire' aircraft of the Russian and allied air forces.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:50 
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^^^ dont we have the durandal for the jaguar fleet?


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:50 
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How many times will Aroor say "blistering" "unabashed" :rotfl:


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 20:53 
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Surya wrote:
How many times will Aroor say "blistering" "unabashed" :rotfl:



Such a irritating commentary! can't these guys try to relate what's on TV..?


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 21:08 
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i have tried some sites, which can host such huge files ,but i am not that confident on the Desi Babu broadband to many disconnections happen ,i will try anyways , night bombing is not clear we can only see targets exploding nor aircraft approach , UAV live feed to DD was great where professional


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2010 21:08 
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Its as bad as the DD commentary of Republic day in some ways

god that was painful - watched the rest on mute. We mujahids do not the stupid commentary :)


Last edited by Surya on 28 Feb 2010 21:15, edited 1 time in total.

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