China border watch

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Jan 2010 16:08

(Subscription required) India’s Himalayan road builders pay the price

The highest fatality rate in the Indian army is not in its infantry battalions massed on the border with arch-rival Pakistan. It is on another frontline closer to China among the army’s high-altitude road builders.

At a meeting in Itanagar, the hill station capital of Arunachal Pradesh, in India’s far north east, Lieutenant General MC Badhani, the director general of the Border Roads Organisation, last week gave a grave account of the gruelling lives his units lead in freezing conditions.

The road builders suffer from high stress and loneliness. Cut off from their families, they can usually only manage two to three years in the desolate Himalayan region bordering China.

During a recent 10-day period, the division lost nine men. Not only are the soldiers’ lives cut brutally short. Earthmoving machinery likewise lasts one third of the time it is meant to in sub-zero temperatures.

Yet the job of India’s military road engineers is likely to become more testing in the months ahead.

Pallam Raju, the minister of state for defence, has given the order that India needs to build infrastructure right up to its 4,000km border with China. He has asked for the urgent deployment of more helicopters to help with a massive airlift to strengthen India’s infrastructure in its Himalayan border states. Such is the rush that helicopters are to be hired from outside the armed services.

India has long neglected to develop its border regions. Reasons include scarce resources and bad weather. Of the BRO’s need for 3,500 tons of material and equipment last year, only 400 tons were delivered. Another factor is strategic. India feared that roads, railways and airports would help the Chinese quickly penetrate deep into India should they invade, as they did almost 50 years ago.

“[The strategy has been to] keep the border region under-developed so that the Chinese couldn’t come across,” Indrani Bagchi, the diplomatic editor of the Times of India, a daily newspaper, says.

“There has been big construction activity on the Indian border. It’s clear to anyone that it’s so much better on the other side.

“People said it was not as easy [to develop] on the Indian side of the border. That’s not an excuse for not doing what we should have done. 2006 was the first time things started to be done on the Indian side.”

Now in Arunachal Pradesh alone, construction is under way of 2,764km of road, more than half again of the existing network.

Envy and fear are the motivators of this reversal of policy.

First, senior political leaders have started to warn that Indians living in border areas neighbouring China are beginning to be jealous of fast-paced development brought by Beijing to the point of regretting being Indian.

Mani Shankar Aiyar, an outspoken former senior diplomat and cabinet minister with responsibility for India's volatile north-east region, views the progress that China has brought to its south-west and Tibet as "simply spectacular".

Second, India fears China’s greater assertiveness in territorial disputes, particularly surrounding Arunachal Pradesh. Not since the 1962 border war has China been so strident about its claims to Indian territory, some of which it considers South Tibet.

The friction between the world’s fastest-growing large economies has triggered disputes over Chinese visas for residents of Arunachal Pradesh and Kashmir, obstacles to multilateral lending programmes and a protest by Beijing over the visit by Manmohan Singh, India's prime minister, to Arunachal Pradesh before a state election. China’s assistance to Pakistan, military and civilian, has also led to deep misgivings in New Delhi.

The tensions, which extend from the Himalayas to the southern Indian Ocean, are forcing a reappraisal of India’s external threats. Brajesh Mishra, a former national security adviser, has warned that India needs to prepare itself for a military standoff as Beijing seeks to challenge India’s territorial integrity in the international arena.

Mr Mishra, who advised Atul Behari Vajpayee, former prime minister, and is close to current premier Manmohan Singh, predicts an "unprecedented challenge" of simultaneous fronts with Pakistan and with China.

Some senior Indian business leaders believe that India should be firmer with China. Their counterparts are more dismissive. One senior executive at a Chinese company operating in India says the potential for misunderstanding between the powers is caused by a fuzzy colonial-era border, drawn arbitrarily across a map. He says the imprecision of the McMahon Line, agreed in 1914, is the reason why soldiers can stray so easily 100 metres on the “wrong” side of the border.

No doubt the perception of a towering China is helpful as India’s armed forces lobby New Delhi for improved kit, including a multibillion dollar order for fighter jets. A report released by KPMG, the auditing firm, earlier this month estimated that about half of India’s military hardware was obsolete. By some estimates, China’s is about the same.

In the meantime, battle is joined with the pick and shovel across the Himalayas.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 27 Jan 2010 12:05

Highway will bring Nepal and Tibet 'in from the cold'

it's an important investment because this mountain pass not only connects Tibet to Nepal - it's also the most direct land route to India's capital, Delhi.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8480637.stm

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 28 Jan 2010 20:16

China mulls setting up military base in Pakistan

BEIJING: China has signaled it wants to go the US way and set up military bases in overseas locations that would possibly include Pakistan. The obvious purpose would be to exert pressure on India as well as counter US influence in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
....
A military base in Pakistan will also help China keep a check on Muslim Uighur separatists fighting for an independent nation in its western region of Xingjian, which borders the North West Frontier Province of Pakistan. Beijing recently signed an agreement with the local government of NWFP in order to keep a close watch on the movement of Uighur ultras.
...
A Pakistani expert on China-Pakistan relationship has a different view on the subject. "The Americans had a base in the past and it caused a political stink. I don’t think it would be politically possible for the Pakistani government to openly allow China to set up a military base," he said while requesting anonymity. Pakistan might allow use of its military facilities without publicly announcing it, he said.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 05 Apr 2010 19:11

China Pushing Nomads into Ladakh Region : BJP

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 07 Apr 2010 04:14

NSC Discusses Infrastructure Upgrade on China Border

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 30 Jun 2010 13:11

Mega tunnel - Rohtang pass

For India's Border Roads Organisation (BRO), that is building the nearly 9 km-long Rohtang tunnel, it will prove a 'geological challenge' to cut through the mighty Himalayas to create an all-weather passage in this avalanche-prone zone.

The 8.82-km long tunnel, whose construction is to be launched by Congress president Sonia Gandhi Monday, will eventually pave the way for round-the-year road accessibility to the strategic Ladakh region through this pass when completed by 2015.

The nearly Rs.1,500 crore (over 30 million USD) tunnel, besides opening up development avenues to the Lahaul Spiti valley, has strategic importance as well.

Constructed with the help of Austrian firm Strabag and India's Afcons, the tunnel is a first step towards making an alternate route to strategic Ladakh region an all-weather link with round-the-year accessibility.

Its strategic value was reiterated after the Kargil war during which the Pakistan Army had aimed at cutting off road access to the Ladakh and Siachen glacier.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jun 2010 13:52

Kailash wrote:
<SNIP> Constructed with the help of Austrian firm Strabag and India's Afcons, the tunnel is a first step towards making an alternate route to strategic Ladakh region an all-weather link with round-the-year accessibility. <SNIP>

While the Rohtang Tunnel is a welcome and long overdue development (it was supposed to commence in 2002) - what I fail to understand is that how are we going to make the Manali-Leh highway "all weather and all year round"?

The reason I ask is that apart from Rohtang, there are three other passes enroute to Leh which come after Rohtang. These are Baralacha La 4,892 m (16,050 ft), Lachulung La 5,059 m (16,598 ft) and Taglang La 5,325 m (17,470 ft) - and these are higher than Rohtang (13,051ft). While the last two above are considered as "less problematic" due to lower snowfall, these are still likely to be non-moterable during winters.

But the good thing is, we will have access to the Lahaul & Spiti districts of HP during winter time as well - not only from military perspective but also from local population.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Jun 2010 15:28

Rs 1500 crore = $ 300 million @ fx rate of 50

... BRO, the Indian Army's construction agency...

Can some clarify, if BRO part of IA or separate? What is the reporting line? Is the budget also under IA?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jul 2010 10:06

^^^Has it own officer Corps plus officers from IA (Corps of Engineers) are seconded+doctors from AMC....the DG is IA Officer. IIRC, it comes under the MOD and not part of IA per se

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 02 Jul 2010 13:03

^^^^^^^^

BRO comes under the admin control of Ministry of Surface Transport

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 08 Jul 2010 00:27

China plans railway link with Pakistan

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 14 Jul 2010 02:05

Craig Alpert wrote:China plans railway link with Pakistan

I wish India will add a railway along with the road to Ladakh. This will be expensive. But it will be offset by tourism revenues, savings by transporting troops by rail instead of by air during peacetime. Besides, both the money spent and tourism will create employment within India, helping the economy. The people of India can enjoy tourism into Ladakh - improving their quality of life. After all China already has a railway up to Lhasa is planning to extend it; now China is planning a railway across the Karakorum mountains into Pakistan. Surely India can do a fraction (in terms of route length) of China is able to do. China's decision to build the Lhasa railway was probably made over 10 years ago when their industrial output and economy was probably as big as that of India today.

On a broader subject, why is India unable to think aggressively? Indians do not lack courage - throughout history Indians have often fought to the last man in battles with invaders. Indians do not lack critical thinking - there is clear evidence of India's intellectual contributions thoughout history till today. Regarding cultural disposition, let me respectfully observe that three of India's major religions (Hinduism, Islam and Sikhism) have advocated war as a means to oppose evil. (I hope I am not offending someone's religious sentiments with this observation. If I am, admins - kindly delete this sentence.) What is the problem with India today?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 09 Aug 2010 05:12

Chinese soldiers cross to India in search of 'love Flower'

BajKhedawal · Post by **BajKhedawal** » 09 Aug 2010 08:08

^^^I think this is yet another attempt by national toilet paper and congress to trivialize all foreign threats to our nation.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 29 Aug 2010 05:00

Pak gives PoK region to China for Gulf road

The New York Times said that there were two important new developments in Gilgit-Baltistan; a simmering rebellion against the Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the Chinese People’s Liber-ation Army in the area, which is closed to the world.

“China wants a grip on the strategic area to assure unfettered road and rail access to the Gulf through Pakistan,” the paper said, and for this purpose is building high-speed rail and road link.

The link up would enable Beijing to transport cargo and oil tankers from eastern China to the new Chinese built Pakistani Naval base at Gawadar, Pasni and Ormara in Balochistan, just east of the Gulf in 48 hours.

“Many of the PLA soldiers entering Gilgit-Baltistan are expected to work on the railroad. Some are extending the Kara-koram Highway, built to link China’s Xinjiang province with Pakistan. Others are working on dams, expressways and other project,” the paper said. It said that mystery surrounds the construction of 22 tunnels in secret locations, where even Pakistanis are barred.

Tunnels would be necessary for a projected gas pipeline from Iran to China that would cross the Karakorams through Gilgit.

“But they could be also used for missiles storage sites,” the Times said.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 29 Aug 2010 06:52

India should open up Kashmir to Indians, allow Indians to buy and settle down. Once we set our foot there, Kashmir issue will disappear and will open tourism more. Of course, Indian Military help is needed for initial few years for the settlers. This is how China tackled the Tibet problem with Hans settling down in large numbers.

manum · Post by **manum** » 29 Aug 2010 08:32

Thomas Kolarek wrote:India should open up Kashmir to Indians, allow Indians to buy and settle down. Once we set our foot there, Kashmir issue will disappear and will open tourism more. Of course, Indian Military help is needed for initial few years for the settlers. This is how China tackled the Tibet problem with Hans settling down in large numbers.

its brilliant idea...those sitting above must get their hands on such brilliant ideas...

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 29 Aug 2010 16:18

Beijing keen on road, rail links deal with Dhaka

About the much-talked-about tri-nation 111-km highway connecting Bangladesh-Myanmar-China, Qin said the Chinese government will extend all necessary cooperation to establish the highway.

In reply, the prime minister said the proposed highway connecting Chittagong-Myanmar-Kunming would play a vital role in increasing bilateral trade and commerce.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 Aug 2010 18:03

Starting a rail link to Laddakh going to be very expensive and time consuming. Even Jammu to Kashmir track hasn't been laid yet. Link to Laddakh is much more difficult. Like road links, traffic will be dependent on weather conditions and most people, even the migrant labourers travel by air during winters.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 29 Aug 2010 19:02

more of the same, and some interesting notes..

a simmering rebellion against the Pakistani rule and the influx of an estimated 7,000 to 11,000 soldiers of the Chinese People's Liberation Army in the area, which is closed to the world.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 Aug 2010 21:57

Sinha asks PM to give befitting reply to China, Pakistan

BJP seeks statement from PM on security front in Parliament

Beginning of some rumblings among the MPs.

The PM must make a suo moto statement on the issue in Parliament tomorrow", Rajnath said, adding UPA government has no comprehensive action plan for internal and external security of the country which was under serious crisis.

Expressing his deep concern over unwanted interference of China over Jammu and Kashmir isuue, Sinha said, “''The PM should convey China in clear-cut terms that India will not tolerate any mess in the region.

Sinha lamented at the reported deployment of about 11,000 Chinese troops in the strategic Gilgit-Baltistan region in the Pak occupied Kashmir (POK).

Sinha urged the Prime Minister that when China was interfering in the internal matters of India while touching the sensitive issue of Jammu and Kashmir in such circumstances India should give befitting reply to China in the same tone. Sinha said that India should raise the issues of Tibeat - Taiwan and human rights violations in China at the international level if Beijing did not stop interfering in the Jammu and Kashmir issue.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 Aug 2010 23:32

From TSPA dhaaga

sum wrote:
WRT the tunnel thing in POK and Indian intel, let us not jump the gun. How do we know that India does not know about these tunnels? Or the real purpose? These tunnels are not something one can mask. Same for movement of people and heavy equipment. If jingoes on this forum can pin-point these using open source satellite infra, guess what specialist with dedicated resources can do?
Rohitvats-ji,
What you mention is true but what exactly has GoI been doing about this issue ( other than raise a whimper or two from time to time)?

What is the point of knowing what is going on and doing nothing about it until it is toolate and everything the Chinese wanted has already happened?

Army readies for China threat

The New York Times’ disclosure on Saturday that there are 11,000 Chinese troops in Gilgit-Baltistan is a “developing story” for the Indian Army, sources said.

The sources added that they were aware of what was going on.

The issue has been discussed and a strategic response worked out based on the apprehension that the threat would manifest itself by 2020.

Silence was being deliberately maintained, sources told Hindustan Times.

“The defence is supplemented by modern surveillance means,” a source said.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 29 Aug 2010 23:52

So from POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir), it has become COK (China Occupied Kashmir), so our 50 years dream of getting back POK is over ?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 30 Aug 2010 00:19

Sorry, sir but since when we have tried to realize this dream of ours . our establishment does not give us right to evne purshase in what we call it our integral part.it already belongs to Pakistani supported hurriyat who stops kashmir at will. It has been 50 years when only pakistan is trying to occupy the rest and now they are making it a chinese base , so when our establishment is spending billion of dollars to purchase arms , pakistan are simply trading our land to our enemy for their riches. Ek teer do nishaney .....

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 30 Aug 2010 01:18

manum wrote:
Thomas Kolarek wrote:India should open up Kashmir to Indians, allow Indians to buy and settle down. Once we set our foot there, Kashmir issue will disappear and will open tourism more. Of course, Indian Military help is needed for initial few years for the settlers. This is how China tackled the Tibet problem with Hans settling down in large numbers.
its brilliant idea...those sitting above must get their hands on such brilliant ideas...

For that Article 370 has to go.

manum · Post by **manum** » 30 Aug 2010 01:29

i hope you know i was sarcastic...i don't think, one can do such thing without a local harmony of sorts...it'll be devastating in other words...china is a different story altogether, slowly i am realizing their examples are totally useless for us...

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 30 Aug 2010 01:37

When America can integrate California and Alaska to the Union, China can do with Tibet, why not India ?
Keep Kashmiris busy with jobs and prosperity, they will accept the new world realm. Unless India integrates Kashmir more to itself, they will feel alienated. Else even with 100 years situation will remain the same in our side of the border.

manum · Post by **manum** » 30 Aug 2010 02:00

i don't know about Tibet example...and china's position...as per Kashmir, if it's relevant or not, given them being China (wrt to their unilateral policies and world view, which to the core amuses me, how a whole nation, oldest civilization can accept being pervert and monotonous)
but see there are local complexities involved, which can be understood best by a local politicians or a person borned and living there...like we understand our environment and its fabric better...incoherent theories specially in fragile environment of Kashmir, though how convincing they look, wont materialize...Remember issue raked over land being given to Amarnath pilgrims...Army involved means some deaths also...how many and why? would we like it when done in our home?

Government has applied reverse policy on it actually, government is integrating Kashmiri's in India, there are special quota's for them in education in every institute, which means them being settled all over...

you can have different opinion...we can expedite the process by better means and may be more proactive willingness...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Sep 2010 04:24

China's Visa Denial Reflects Their Predilection: Jaswal

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Sep 2010 01:35

DELETED.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2010 12:17

VinodTK wrote:DELETED

India has discovered that this is easier said than done. Moreover, the Indians have discovered that they are far behind Chinese efforts. When they took a closer look, Indian staff officers found that China had improved its road network along most of their 4,000 kilometer common border. Indian military planners calculated that, as a result of this network, Chinese military units can move 400 kilometers a day on hard surfaced roads, while Indian units can only move half as fast, while suffering more vehicle damage because of the many unpaved roads. Building more roads will take years.

Let us resist from posting articles and links from that rag, Strategy Page. This article is nothing but load of BS and written by someone who doesn't know jackshit about the these things.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 04 Sep 2010 14:33

^^Rohitvats ji,In this case the article is mostly correct.Can you point where the article is wrong?

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 04 Sep 2010 15:13

^^^^^^
Darshhan Bhai,

The basic premise of the article , and particularly, the Title of the article is misleading, if not downright wrong. The title implies that India and Indians are amateurs at mountain road building! Without delving into the civil engineering aspects of mountain engineering, I just want to point out that the major issue on our side is that we are starting late, funds are limited compared to the Chinese and the terrain and weather on the Indian side is more formidable vis-a-vis the Chinese side.

The premise of the article that Indians are amateurs is wrong simply because the BRO has been building such roads for a long time, case in point being roads in Ladakh and the Hindustan-Tibet Road; there was delay in Arunachal simply because we had decided not to build these roads and let those areas be! It is only in the last 18 months or so, that the BRO has received a clear mandate from the GoI to build road-heads in various areas of Arunachal and also, lately in Himachal and Ladakh. Accordingly, three new BRO task forces have been set up, including one that was earlier specialised in mountainous area bridge building. That said, it will take us about 4 years to build the roads. There are delays particlularly with availability of labour and bitumen; the working season is also limited becaus of weather constraints in winter and during monsoons. Also, the terrain on our side is more adverse because the mountains rise suddenly after the northern Assam plains, while on the Chinese side, its relatively moderate.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 04 Sep 2010 15:16

The other point made in the article is that Indians are not considering logistics...obviously, the author has not heard of places like Tenga, Tawang, Summer Camp..etc..etc.....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Sep 2010 16:12

^^^ In my travels in the mountains of Uttaranchal on roads build by the BRO under operation Chirag and Deepak. The roads were in excellent condition. Granted that they will not handle MLC 70 traffic. but for most of the other military loads they seemed to be quite sufficient in terms of meeting the requirement of the Indian military.

Also every 25 or so kms on the road and in every blocl level town there was distinct military area which was well stocked in terms of supplies along with the equipment needed to repair the roads in case they were damaged.

The point that I am trying to make is that the road infrastructure is quite well developed to meet the logistical needs of the IA for waging a defensive war in the mountains.

True, things can get better by building a MLC 70 four lane expressway to every border outpost.

If the Chinies infrastructure seems better. Then it is simply a result of it being located on the flat Tibbeten platue.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Sep 2010 16:13

They have learn't a way for attracting readership via headlines and are earning money. But, it leaves a lot of people fuming. Indian media too employs the trick. They deliberately write things that attract readership.

Strategypage regularly dishes out such stuff as it attracts a lot of Injuns.

But, they have a point. the articles ain't pointless.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 04 Sep 2010 17:04

Thanks Gagan for Demchok lead. With some inspiration from you, I toured around Demchok. I used google maps so the findings may be outdated

Demchok Region with F for Fukche and D for Demchok. Demchok is under a white cloud

Those black dots are some structures situated across that region.

I circled something that looked like white strip....

Its more prominent in this snapshot...it doesn't add up....

Here, I found 2 wheel trails..1 leading towards fukche..and another one leading to Wolou and jianji in China...what mystified me was the trails leading to those Chinese locations were more prominent than the one leading to fukche..found 2 or 3 bridges on the river

didn't see any runway in fukche...google didn't update I guess...there are some structures which are in the middle of no where....

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 04 Sep 2010 17:11

I think if fukche is upgraded to a full fledged air field.....then Demchok will be better secured

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Sep 2010 22:08

darshhan wrote:^^Rohitvats ji,In this case the article is mostly correct.Can you point where the article is wrong?

darshan, Avik has given excellent explanation. Yes, we are lagging in terms of infrastructure but we as amateur in mountain warfare and logistics? Yeah sure......

Plus, we have troops (reserves) far closer to border than the Chinese. IA knows the what is up against and has worked to best of it's ability.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 05 Sep 2010 01:47

Rohitvats ji , Even I don't agree with the title of the article.But then article is not pointless.If you read the article they have not denigrated our engineering capabilities.Instead they have just laid out the challenges that are ahead.

Although it has not been suggested as such but the situation on ground is an indictment of the politico-bureaucrat nexus which is ruling this country and their defensive mindset because of which road development in Arunachal was not taken up for more than 40 years.