Recession & irrelevance of GoI in its citizen's affairs

[Tanaji]

I am starting this topic to document how over the course of time the Government of India through its ineptness, corruption and sloth is gradually becoming irrelevant and impotent in the everyday affairs of the indian citizen. Indeed, it is becoming a hindrance in most cases.

The primary duties of GoI are in no particular order:

• Security of the individual (both internal and external)
• Provision or means by which the individual can provide himself the basic essentials of life such as
  • Water
  • Relatively safe air
  • Electricity
• Education
• Health care

Others can add more as they see fit. We can see that in each and every point of the above, the government has failed. I know its easy to blame the government, but some aspects are really down to criminal neglect, sloth and corruption rather than a lack of resources.

[Tanaji]

Healthcare:

http://business.rediff.com/column/2009/ ... shines.htm

Health care in India is terrible

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0 ... 14,00.html

Enough has been said about the lack of affordable health care, whether be it for the extremely poor, or even for the middle class. The profusion of tests, referral scams amongst doctors further serves to drive up costs.

[Tanaji]

Water Shortage:

The government has failed in the basic duty to provide safe and clean water for everyone.

The scene in metros:

Cities to run dry, facing water shortages
http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2 ... arcity.htm

Indian cities to run dry by 2020
http://www.rediff.com/money/2009/feb/10 ... y-2020.htm

The scene in rural areas is even more dire. Only in India, is there a market to the tune of 1500 crore rupees because the government utterly fails to provide safe water even in the towns and cities.

There are absolutely no concerted plans for water conservation and rain water harvesting

[Tanaji]

Electricity

The villages and towns are either not electrified or have a connection that suffers from massive power cuts to the tune of 10 hours a day. Barring the major cities like Mumbai, all cities in Maharashtra are facing massive power cuts. Villages are even worse.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 540800.htm

State electricity boards are dens of corrupt thieves, transmission losses are rampant and there is no action to improve the same. The nuke deal is expected to ease this situation but we have no idea when this happens.

[Tanaji]

Clean Air

http://www.cseindia.org/campaign/apc/apc-index.htm

There is a wealth of data available at
http://www.indiastat.com/environmentand ... stats.aspx

but you have to register.

[Tanaji]

Education

The less said about this the better. Its better to link to the existing thread for this one:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=1040

[Tanaji]

Given the above, what does the GoI really deliver on?

Mods:

I suppose this could all be in the whine thread, so if you feel this topic is pointless to discuss, feel free to delete.

[Hari Seldon]

Tanaji,

Many a cloud has a silver lining, seems like. E.g., in edu - the comprehensive failure of the state or gubmint to cater to minimum citizen needs has allowed an entire pvt edu industry to rise and shine in our urban areas - at different price points for different tastes.

Same in healthcare too - every gully has a clinic, nursing homes flourish even in semi-urban areas, the number of doctors, nurses and other med professionals churned out by the system scales in the 1000s, hajaar bottom-up jugaad and innovation all around, a vibrant low-cost pharma industry that even global biggies grudgingly respect for capabilities and delivery, and so on and so forth.

Cleanliness and all - seems citizen initiatives are all the rage for local garbage collection and disposal in Kolkata of all places. Nainital residents banded together and cleaned up their naini lake themselves.

Sure, there are areas where gubmint alone can be prime mover. Hopefully, we will get there too someday.

Jai Ho.

[Rahul Mehta]

Tanaji,

What legislations do you propose to reduce the problems?

.

[Raja Bose]

^^1st one is The Right to Own SMERCH - the commons have spoken Mehta ji, lets see this Right posted on your website.

[Marut]

Tanaji,

What legislations do you propose to reduce the problems?

.

Rahul Mehta,

I have reported your post to the moderators.

Mods,
This is a humble request to rein in Rahul Mehta from barging into every thread and talking about legislations. The talk about legislations doesn't serve to further the discussion and many posters stop discussing once he is in with his 'legislations & right of commons' tripe. I understand that he wants to improve things in India and has contested Parliamentary election to that effect. But to wield it as though this action has bestowed upon him the unquestionable right to tell us how to fix things smacks of arrogance. I believe that the 'Indian Neta-Babu-Judiciary' thread has been allowed to be the crucible for his ideas and theories about commons and legislations. I request that he be asked to confine his legislative ideas and thoughts to that thread. His participation in the other threads will need to go with the flow of ideas and thoughts being discussed with none of the rhetorical 'What legislation do you propose?'.
Thanks,
xxxxxxx

I am amazed with your persistence in peddling the legislation tripe when you should know by now that the major problem in India is the enforcement of the said legislation. All that these new legislations will do is to provide the govt bureacracy with another stick to beat commons and extort money to execute even the minimum duties required by them. How do you propose to remedy this? Another legislation? Give me and everyone here a break, please. We don't need more government but less of it. Read the post below to understand why.

Tanaji,

Many a cloud has a silver lining, seems like. E.g., in edu - the comprehensive failure of the state or gubmint to cater to minimum citizen needs has allowed an entire pvt edu industry to rise and shine in our urban areas - at different price points for different tastes.

Same in healthcare too - every gully has a clinic, nursing homes flourish even in semi-urban areas, the number of doctors, nurses and other med professionals churned out by the system scales in the 1000s, hajaar bottom-up jugaad and innovation all around, a vibrant low-cost pharma industry that even global biggies grudgingly respect for capabilities and delivery, and so on and so forth.

Cleanliness and all - seems citizen initiatives are all the rage for local garbage collection and disposal in Kolkata of all places. Nainital residents banded together and cleaned up their naini lake themselves.

Sure, there are areas where gubmint alone can be prime mover. Hopefully, we will get there too someday.

Jai Ho.

The above post illustrates the need to remove the govt from being the prime mover for most of the areas. The private sector with its competition will provide the range of services that will cater to the needs of the market. The govt only needs to mandate the minima and/or maxima of the requirements and then stay on the sidelines ensuring these are fulfilled.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta: Tanaji, What legislations do you propose to reduce the problems?

Marut: Mods, This is a humble request to rein in Rahul Mehta from barging into every thread and talking about legislations. The talk about legislations doesn't serve to further the discussion and many posters stop discussing once he is in with his 'legislations & right of commons' tripe. I understand that he wants to improve things in India and has contested Parliamentary election to that effect. But to wield it as though this action has bestowed upon him the unquestionable right to tell us how to fix things smacks of arrogance. I believe that the 'Indian Neta-Babu-Judiciary' thread has been allowed to be the crucible for his ideas and theories about commons and legislations. I request that he be asked to confine his legislative ideas and thoughts to that thread. His participation in the other threads will need to go with the flow of ideas and thoughts being discussed with none of the rhetorical 'What legislation do you propose?'.
Thanks, xxxxxxx

The allegation that I barge into "every" thread is horribly wrong. Pls look at Mil Forum threads and many Strat Forum threads, and I have practically zero posts in most of those threads. I ask postors to provide legislations ONLY when they are cursing GoI wrt a problem. And IMO, that is 100% logical, for GoI runs on drafts of legislations, Govt Orders etc. And that is how GoI must run. If anyone is complaining about GoI, it is implied that he wants some changes in GoI behavior and a change in GoI behavior can come only after some legislation or GO is passed. Even if problem is lack of implementation, then also solution is only some other GO would bring the implementation.

And when do I stop people from posting what they want? I ask them a question, and they are free to answer or ignore the question. I dont ask same question to same postor on same issue again. My posts are not abusive. My posts are not defamatory. And yet they cause so much Takleeeeef to postors !! And if a post like "what legislation do you propose" cause Takleeef , I shouldnt be faulted for this.

===

I am amazed with your persistence in peddling the legislation tripe when you should know by now that the major problem in India is the enforcement of the said legislation.

Thats YO. IMO, problem is bad legislation drafts, which is why implementation becomes impossible despite the fact that 99% citizens of India are as honest as those in US.

Hari Seldon : Many a cloud has a silver lining, seems like. E.g., in edu - the comprehensive failure of the state or gubmint to cater to minimum citizen needs has allowed an entire pvt edu industry to rise and shine in our urban areas - at different price points for different tastes. Same in healthcare too - every gully has a clinic, nursing homes flourish even in semi-urban areas, the number of doctors, nurses and other med professionals churned out by the system scales in the 1000s, hajaar bottom-up jugaad and innovation all around, a vibrant low-cost pharma industry that even global biggies grudgingly respect for capabilities and delivery, and so on and so forth. Cleanliness and all - seems citizen initiatives are all the rage for local garbage collection and disposal in Kolkata of all places. Nainital residents banded together and cleaned up their naini lake themselves.

Marut: The above post illustrates the need to remove the govt from being the prime mover for most of the areas. The private sector with its competition will provide the range of services that will cater to the needs of the market. The govt only needs to mandate the minima and/or maxima of the requirements and then stay on the sidelines ensuring these are fulfilled.

So how do you propose we apply this "remove the Govt as prime mover" solution for some REAL problems like corruption in police, corruption in courts, nepotism in courts , weakening of Indian Military etc?

[Rahul Mehta]

^^1st one is The Right to Own SMERCH - the commons have spoken Mehta ji, lets see this Right posted on your website.

It is posts like above which are disrupting threads.

But surprisingly, neither thread starter nor self appointed Thread Rakshaks find such posts disruptive, and instead complain against me for posts like "what laws do you propose?"

[BijuShet]

Rahul Mehtaji please ignore all the nay sayers and the ones who mock you. Until last week your right to recall initiative was made fun of by many here. Today morning I read about Gujarat state govt proposing a similar bill. I would not be shocked to learn that your persistant highlighting of this issue managed to reach the right ears in the state govt and someone acted on it. If possible please give us a brief summary of how the provisions within the new proposed legislation is similar and where it is different from the one you drafted. It may help us better understand which proposals are doable and which ones are pie in the sky objectives. I do not know if you will receive any credit from the state govt for your efforts on the right to recall movement but you have my gratitude for the service you render to our motherland.

[Abhijeet]

Completely agree that the problem is largely not lack of resources in India, it's the consistent failure of government in many different areas. Without fixing basic governance issues (which I have repeatedly written - or ranted - about), our growth rate will be difficult to sustain. Roads, power, water, sewage, garbage collection - all of these very basic things are still difficult for our government to provide. At the end of the first decade of the 21st century, surely it can't be that difficult.

At the risk of starting a flamewar here, I'll say this. It must surely be one of the great ironies of our time that an unelected, autocratic government in China has been far more responsive to the basic needs of its citizens than our multitudes of democratically elected, representative governments.

[Yudhajit]

@ BijuShet, RM has already answered that in the Neta-Babu thread.

RM ji, you rock ! Don't worry about the naysayers --pretty much the same kind of people who would have laughed their stomachs out at the very thought of India being a democracy, in case we haden't been one today.

[BijuShet]

Thanks Yudhajitji.

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehtaji please ignore all the nay sayers and the ones who mock you. Until last week your right to recall initiative was made fun of by many here. Today morning I read about Gujarat state govt proposing a similar bill. I would not be shocked to learn that your persistant highlighting of this issue managed to reach the right ears in the state govt and someone acted on it. If possible please give us a brief summary of how the provisions within the new proposed legislation is similar and where it is different from the one you drafted. It may help us better understand which proposals are doable and which ones are pie in the sky objectives. I do not know if you will receive any credit from the state govt for your efforts on the right to recall movement but you have my gratitude for the service you render to our motherland.

Thanks BijuShet, Thanks Yudhajit.

Replied in neta-babu thread, because some say that this thread is too holy for my posts. And thread starter belongs to that camp.

[svinayak]

Completely agree that the problem is largely not lack of resources in India, it's the consistent failure of government in many different areas. Without fixing basic governance issues (which I have repeatedly written - or ranted - about), our growth rate will be difficult to sustain. Roads, power, water, sewage, garbage collection - all of these very basic things are still difficult for our government to provide.

This is what I am talking about - decolonization of the Indian govt. The govt structure is still similar to the colonial govt which is to rule and create order but not about governance and "facilitating" the needs of the society and community.

[Rahul Mehta]

At the risk of starting a flamewar here, I'll say this. It must surely be one of the great ironies of our time that an unelected, autocratic government in China has been far more responsive to the basic needs of its citizens than our multitudes of democratically elected, representative governments.

First, it is bit misleading that we have more democracy than China.

China doesnt have elections. But then in India, so called elections are confined to MPs, MLAs and two bit Panchayat Members. i.e. We only elect people with no real powers. We dont elect CM, PM. We dont elect judges. We dont elect Police Chiefs. We dont elect RBI-G. We dont have Jury. And even when we elect MLA, MP , the power is useless because we dont have recall powers. So as far as legislation goes, we get mere 1 out 1000 marks more. And recruitment procedures in administration and courts are far LESS nepotic and less corruption prone than India. So committed people in China have greater chances of getting inside and doing something useless. In India, recruitment in State Govt and all courts have become hell holes of nepotism and corruption. UPSC was non-corrupt, but cracks are now visible.

=====

The govt structure is still similar to the colonial govt which is to rule and create order but not about governance and "facilitating" the needs of the society and community.

And let me repeat this FACT 1256th time : the mess in India is because we "decolonized" administration by removing Jury System which colonial powers did leave. The leaders after 1948 wanted to run courts in Indic way. And so this colonial JurySys was killed. And as a result corruption etc in courts grew 100 times and rot in courts started ruining every corner of administration. If we had preserved the "colonial" JurySys and accepted more western (=colonial?) procedures like Jury, Coroner's Jury, recall, MRCM etc. things would have been better.

Also, if you insist that we should de-colonize GoI rather than further Westernizing it, fine. But it would be useful if you can post the DRAFTS of legislations and Executive Notifications needed to decolonize GoI. After all, GoI runs on ENs and without EN nothing can change. And in absence of legislation drafts, it is impossible to decide whether non-colonial model will better than Western model I propose.

[svinayak]

=====

The govt structure is still similar to the colonial govt which is to rule and create order but not about governance and "facilitating" the needs of the society and community.

And let me repeat this FACT 1256th time : the mess in India is because we "decolonized" administration by removing Jury System which colonial powers did leave. The leaders after 1948 wanted to run courts in Indic way. And so this colonial JurySys was killed. And as a result corruption etc in courts grew 100 times and rot in courts started ruining every corner of administration.

Jury system is only one form of the system. There are other forms which can be proposed.

[Rahul Mehta]

Acharya: The govt structure is still similar to the colonial govt which is to rule and create order but not about governance and "facilitating" the needs of the society and community.

Rahul Mehta: And let me repeat this FACT 1256th time : the mess in India is because we "decolonized" administration by removing Jury System which colonial powers did leave. The leaders after 1948 wanted to run courts in Indic way. And so this colonial JurySys was killed. And as a result corruption etc in courts grew 100 times and rot in courts started ruining every corner of administration.

Acharya: Jury system is only one form of the system. There are other forms which can be proposed.

Sure. Pls post the draft of the legislation needed to bring that "better than Jury" alternate system. The reason I am asking is : too many people from Greek thinkers to Jefferson have said that JurySys is the best possible system they could think of. This doesnt mean that better system cant exist. But unless one sees the DRAFT of the better system, it is hard to say if that system is even 1/10th as fair as JurySys.

.

[Hitesh]

Rahul Mehta,

You are setting up a straw man argument. There are countries that do not have a jury system and yet they do very well in responding to citizens' concern. No the problem is at the local level where the people don't take the initiative and take matters into their own hands. If you take a look at western countries, you will see that the local government, not the state or national level, are responsible for most of the basic needs, such as water, sewage, garbage collection, electricity (to some extent), and roads. They are able to do those things because they have taxing power at the local level and can spend those local tax revenues to address those concerns. Of course, responsive local courts, media, and enforcement goes hand to hand. Also open and direct participation of the citizens are needed to make this work.

So it is not such the jury system that makes it work but the active and local participation of the local citizens with the mindset that *THEY*, not the state or national government, are responsible for the implementation of solutions and problem solving. That is what the colonialism destroyed. Decolonialism will bring those things and the required mindset back. During the colonial times, the locals did not even have the right to tax themselves. Instead they had to pay taxes to the colonial masters who would take those taxes out of the country and not even do anything for the locals. For 200 years, India endured that and suffered mightily. After 60 years of independence and incremental progress, the damage done is far from being repaired but we will get there as we encourage more active local participation and problem solving and promote the attitude that only you and your local citizens can solve the local problems, not the state or the nation.

[Rahul Mehta]

There are countries that do not have a jury system and yet they do very well in responding to citizens' concern.

1. How countries have population above 20 lakh
2. Of above, how many have judge system and how many have JurySys
3. What is the correlation of corruptionless-ness and presence/absence of Jury?

I have done the above survey, and JurySys and corruptionless-ness have a very good correlation. Even Japan had to accept that and move to JurySys starting Aug this year. This thread is not to discuss the JurySys etc. Some details of JurySys etc are here http://rahulmehta.com/articles/rn_why.htm . And since you say that JurySys is not needed to reduce corruption, nepotism in courts in India : can you provide me Jury-less laws by which nepotism and corruption in Indian courts can be reduced?

1. No the problem is at the local level where the people don't take the initiative and take matters into their own hands.

2. If you take a look at western countries, you will see that the local government, not the state or national level, are responsible for most of the basic needs, such as water, sewage, garbage collection, electricity (to some extent), and roads.

3. They are able to do those things because they have taxing power at the local level and can spend those local tax revenues to address those concerns. Of course, responsive local courts, media, and enforcement goes hand to hand. Also open and direct participation of the citizens are needed to make this work.

...

1. So pls propose the DRAFTS of the legislations by which you think people will "start taking initiatives". One such way, where people do things themselves, is JurySys which you oppose. Another procedure where people do things themselves is Recall, where in people themselves expel a judge or police chief without calling maai-baap judge or Minister. But again, Recall is a Western (=colonial?) concept and so most likely you oppose (am I right?) So what laws you propose that would enable people to take initiative?

2. In India too, all above except electricity is managed by Municipalities. And in most US states too, electricity is managed by State Govt and not Municipalities.

3. So what laws you propose to promote this - what you call as - "open and direct participation of the citizens "? Three such mechanisms to promote open and direct participation are Jury, recall and referendum which are all Western (=Colonial?) constructs, and since they are Western I am assuming that you oppose them all. So what legislation do YOU propose to increase "open and direct participation of the citizens"?