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PostPosted: 23 May 2011 20:39 
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Singha wrote:
for H&D photos, a couple of para SF guys could also sit there and do the strong crewcut rogue warrior extraction thing for == onlee.

In fact, Parachute Regiment have done something even more impressive for Dhruv
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JffsYlJAf48&feature=player_profilepage#t=252s
Now top that! :twisted:


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PostPosted: 23 May 2011 20:59 
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I wonder who supports the BSF Dhruvs? IAF ? its upto HAL and the supporting body to work things out and give higher uptime.

higher uptime == more costs + more people that much is given. provided the money is there, it should not be an issue.


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PostPosted: 23 May 2011 21:56 
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Marten sir,
I guess you can upload the artice in its entirety here.. Better here than any other thread...


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PostPosted: 23 May 2011 22:39 
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Singha wrote:
I wonder who supports the BSF Dhruvs? IAF ? its upto HAL and the supporting body to work things out and give higher uptime.

higher uptime == more costs + more people that much is given. provided the money is there, it should not be an issue.


The IAF has no dealing with the BSF choppers. They are serviced by HAL.


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PostPosted: 23 May 2011 23:56 
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Pratyush wrote:
Then why not design a Apache/ Mi28 class helo to begin with.

Also what is the gurantee that your enemy will oblige you with providing you with targets that will be suitable for the Heavies when they are available. What happnes when they send a target in an area that only a heavy as defined by you can deal with but, only the LCH is present (Assuming that the LCH isnt good enough for the JOB). Does the IA/ IAF loose the fight or they fight and prevail with what they have.

Changing tack, the Attack helo tender went to every helo manufacturer out there including the Tiger and the A 129. They did not participate due to different reasons. That tells me that the IAF/IA dont have clear difination of the machine they are looking for. It has to be an attack helo, its capabilities will be evaluated and only the most capable and the one performing the best in Indian conditions will be selected by the IAF/ IA. In that situation, if the LCH meets all the criteria of evaluation, then the tender ought to be scrapped and only the LCH be procured. If the LCH fails to meet the parameters then the winning design of the tender ought to be procured in the numbers ment for the LCH.

Pratyushji,
The Attack heli of that class will be a derivative of the IMMRH, which is still pretty much in the planning stage. So i guess its gonna be a long time before we can make our own attack helicopter of that class.

About the Targets, there is absolutely no guarantee that our enemy will deploy exactly in the manner we want this assets to be deployed. But the ace up LCH's sleeve is its capabilities at high altitude. So apart from the high altitude areas, the Apache's/Mi28's and LCH can be co-deployed almost everywhere.

I can't speak about the spec mentioned in the RFP since i have not gone through it yet. But i can understand why they want limited numbers of these heavy hitting birds. Big is always big, irrespective if they are better or not. And that's exactly what we need for some roles, like Recon: search and destroy to name two.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 00:09 
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shiv wrote:
Marten wrote:
Vayu has a comparison of Lizardclone vs LCH. I have two images. Mods, would it be ok to post these?


It's here - kelik on thumbnail
Image


Some mistake there looks like.... why is the WZ-10 loaded wt greater than its MTOW??

I'm guessing the correct figures should look something like this:

LCH:

empty wt: 2.5 tons
loaded wt: 4 tons
MTOW: 5.5 tons
Useful load: 3 tons

WZ-10:

empty wt: 5.5 tons
loaded wt: 6 tons
MTOW: 7 tons
Useful load: 1.5 tons

Seems like something wrong to me, even with those numbers. But if true, brilliant stuff!!!


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 05:33 
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IAF could use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. To exploit this capability IAF could be looking to buy just 28 of these big birds and buy LCHs in the hundreds.

I hope they complete the selection quickly. With the Alphabet soup of agreements from the US, the deal might swing the Mi28s way. Incidentally Mi-28 sports a radar very similar to the Longbow radar on an Apache.
A Pooch for gurus, How much do they cost?


Last edited by Shrinivasan on 24 May 2011 08:18, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 06:09 
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the twin engine AH1W supercobra weighs 4.6t empty and the Rooivalk @ 5.5t

the single engine AH1 weight around 2.6t empty

is anyone sure of the 2.5t empty for LCH ? the argiden engine weight 205kg each and then there might be external parts per engine...


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 06:11 
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cheenum wrote:
IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.


Do you have any source to back up this description of Apaches being able to guide LCHs and the IAF having such a plan- or are you extrapolating what you know about the Apache to imagine a secure datalink between Apache and the as yet unavailable LCH.

I have a reason for asking this question. You may well be right in your thinking - but your post sounds so juicy and attractive to the jingo ear that you will find some lurker of today ask on this forum after one year (in 2012) "What happened to the plan of integrating Apache with LCH?" or if Apache is rejected someone will have a caterwaul/rant and say "MoD Babus are stupid - the IAF plan to ingrate Apache Longbow with LCH has been dashed". So your post had better not be misinformation or imagination.

In my view India will not get the Longbow even if we get Apaches for the same reason that India did not get CISMOA with the C-130s. Longbow (the radar) will come with EULA that will demand that India reveal how it will be used. Besides - secure datalinking it with LCH will mean either having some Longbow source code or asking the Americans to create a datalink to be used in LCH along with EULA etc.

Finally a mast mounted radar is something that requires intensive maintenance because of the high vibration environment it has to operate ie - and that means that American Longbow technicians will be crawling all over IAF Longbows.

Lastly - the Longbow radar is mast mounted so that the Apache can hide behind terrain features and yet use its detection and aiming capability. That means that the Longbow Apache is not an "AWACS" type design that calls for it to be somewhere far away outside the theatre of action. If the Apache is in the theater of action why use LCH - or are you suggesting a caste system where it is OK to lose a few LCHs who expose themselves but preserve the hiding Apache. If all helos, Apache and LCH are hiding behind terrain so that line of sight communication is impossible - what sort of secure communication will be used? We will need a dedicated satellite for that. Or will it be an AWACS? Is the IAF planing that as well?

Can you be a bit more clear about what you claim the IAF envisages.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 06:36 
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IAF's attack chopper competition is simply a one to one replacement of the hinds, probably because the LCH is still at least a couple of years away from completion. given that choppers with no fire-control radars, like mangusta and tiger were also sent RFPs I don't think the idea that IAF wanted to use the foreign attack chopper in co-op with LCH sticks.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 06:53 
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shiv wrote:
cheenum wrote:
IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.


Do you have any source to back up this description of Apaches being able to guide LCHs and the IAF having such a plan- or are you extrapolating what you know about the Apache to imagine a secure datalink between Apache and the as yet unavailable LCH.


This possibility of Apache being able to do this is from a Design Engineer in McDonnel Douglas (which designed the original Apache which was since then acquired by Boeing). At the same time will the US SD/DOD allow Boeing to sell an Apache Longbow or will IAF select the Nanga Apache is a million dollar question.

My scenario is an ideal scenario, Jingo wet dream, I cannot talk for the IAF... Gurus are there for it.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 06:59 
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shiv wrote:
cheenum wrote:
IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.


If the Apache is in the theater of action why use LCH - or are you suggesting a caste system where it is OK to lose a few LCHs who expose themselves but preserve the hiding Apache. If all helos, Apache and LCH are hiding behind terrain so that line of sight communication is impossible - what sort of secure communication will be used? We will need a dedicated satellite for that. Or will it be an AWACS? Is the IAF planing that as well?

Can you be a bit more clear about what you claim the IAF envisages.


My suggestion was for Apache (1 or more) to lead a flight of LCH into a strike mission. PERIOD. There is a capability to do this. Both Apache and Mi-28 can do it. I never meant LCH would be cannon fodder. LCH would actually do its attacking from a standoffdistance(couple of KM).

Also if the enemy is going to attack this strike flight. They would actually try to take out the lead Apache/Mi-28 than the LCH as this would dis-orient the strike force.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 07:30 
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cheenum wrote:

My suggestion was for Apache (1 or more) to lead a flight of LCH into a strike mission. PERIOD. There is a capability to do this. Both Apache and Mi-28 can do it. I never meant LCH would be cannon fodder. LCH would actually do its attacking from a standoffdistance(couple of KM).

Also if the enemy is going to attack this strike flight. They would actually try to take out the lead Apache/Mi-28 than the LCH as this would dis-orient the strike force.


Fair enough - but if it is your suggestion, that does not translate to its being the IAF's idea. Sorry to nitpick - but your actual statement was:

Quote:
IAF is looking to use Apache's/Mi28's along with LCH in a strike role. An Apache with Longbow radar can guide a flight of LCHs towards their target to deadly effect. This is why they are looking to by 28 of these big birds and LCHs in the hundreds.


The suggestion is yours, but your have said that the "IAF is looking to use..". That is wrong. The IAF has stated no intention to use Apaches in this manner. Perhaps you meant to say "It would be good for the IAF to use Apache Longbow with LCH"?

The capability may be there - but that capability is only nascent and not a plan. Like I said - I believe that the IAF is unlikely to get Longbow along with Apache. That is my opinion because the Longbow will come with too many strings attached.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 08:06 
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Comparing article of LCH and Chinese lizard

Combat attack helicopters: Rivals in the air

It seems India and china are par on Helicopter technology if not better :eek:


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 08:15 
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I stand corrected, will reword my post.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 08:33 
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imo this whole spotter-shooter thing devolves into a easier model if a helicopter or small plane mounts a GMTI radar (Astor, french horizon), flies say 20-30km behind the edge of the desired battle (to keep out of range for mobile SAMs) and feeds the tactical picture via datalink to the attack helis. the helis by themselves have thermals and TV channels and radio comms to allocate targets and shoot.

web indicates france retired their 4 horizons in 2008 because of high cost and use of UAVs to do same job.
The helicopter is equipped with a long-range, multi-mode retractable pulse Doppler radar. A rotating antenna is carried beneath the fuselage. The radar range is 200km, with the helicopter operating at an altitude of 4,000m and a cruise speed of 180km/h.

The radar scans a ground area of 20,000km² over a depth of 200km in ten seconds, and the data is then transmitted to a ground station. For moving targets the radar provides a speed resolution of the target of 2m per second.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/horizon/

so the problem becomes simpler - mount ground surveillance radar on a large MALE UAV and feed that into shooter via some channel. I think we will see Rustom MALE variant in that role when it arrives - its a gaping hole in current IAF capability. at higher end for surveilling corps sized areas , a EMB145 variant might come along, reusing interior work from the AEW project.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 08:49 
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Singha this whole business of "network centric warfare" is the seamless integration of all sensors. It may be a man on the ground 500 meters from the enemy - a UAV, a helo or an AWACS. Everyone should be able to see what someone else sees. So an infantryman can track a tank and feed the info to the network and that tank can be taken out by any available asset.

OT here - but in this connection Prodyut Das (in his latest article from Vayu that I uploaded to Rapidshare) mentions the possibility of a 3-D cube - probably a computer rendition on a 2-D screen that allows a pilot to see his own position relative to all others - friends and threats.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 08:52 
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karan_mc wrote:
Comparing article of LCH and Chinese lizard

Combat attack helicopters: Rivals in the air

It seems India and china are par on Helicopter technology if not better :eek:

Good. wherever chips market their wheezy 10, we could take up a counter bid for LCH, provided buyer is a safe country/customer with no links to terrorism.


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 09:44 
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SELF DELETED


Last edited by atul.arvind on 24 May 2011 10:06, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 09:53 
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atul.arvind wrote:
BSF dont want DHRUV heli...says its totally useless....



news :TOI Bangalore edition.will post link as soon as i get 1....



Already posted


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PostPosted: 24 May 2011 13:38 
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WRT, the longbow radar and the Ah64. Why can the Item be fitted to the LCH it self or be deployed like the MMwR FCS on the Ah1Z. Also why not ask the proposed LOH to be equipped with a similar radar to locate targets and guide the LCH to the target.

Also it is not necessary that you have Helo based radar onlee. Why not use some thing like the JSTAR/ ASTOR to guide the LCH where the targets are.

My point is we need to end this fascination with foreign maal. We must be the only nation where the Proposed imported solution and the domestically developed solution will have similar time line of entry into service. Yet we are wishing for an Imported solution to be acquired and add to logistical complexity.

Also considering the development efforts for the WSI Dhruv and the lineage of the LCH. We can be sure that the LCH will have a minimal time lag in terms of completing the test flight and reaching deployment.

Granted that the HELINA will take some time to enter into service (As per DDM 2013). But what prevents the LCH to be equipped as an interim measure with an imported ATGM. As it is we are ok with the Imported ATGM serving with the Imported Attack Helo.

Added later: I had not seen Singhas post


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PostPosted: 25 May 2011 05:30 
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Russian Helicopters to be assembled in India
Quote:
The MiG setback has been a humbling experience for Russian defence contractors. Now, the Russian Helicopter company is sweetening the deal by offering local production in the race for three Indian tenders worth $4 bn.
:
In a move unprecedented in the country’s history, the Russian Helicopters, JSC announced it was ready to establish manufacturing of military equipment in India with the right to re-export to third countries. The helicopter builders are thus trying to gain the upper hand in three tenders for supplying the Indian Air Force with light highlander choppers, cargo carriers, and assault helicopters worth more than $4 billion in total.

“We may do the final assembly in India and enter other markets from the Indian market base,” Andrei Reus, CEO of United Industrial Corporation Oboronprom, said. The Russian Helicopters, JSC, an Oboronprom subsidiary, is responsible for the design and manufacturing of all helicopters in Russia.


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PostPosted: 25 May 2011 22:49 
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DGCA certifies Dhruv simulator to Level D
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/05/dgca-certifies-dhruv-simulator-to-level.html

added later: for all who do not known what a level 'd' flight simulator is, please click on link below and go to motion in flight simulators sub-heading;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_simulator#Motion_in_flight_simulators


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PostPosted: 28 May 2011 00:20 
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Price row prompts HAL to look elsewhere for chopper engine

Quote:
BANGALORE: A dispute over fees may hamper French firm Turbomeca's chances of participating in the development of Shakti engines for Light Utility Helicopter programme.

Turbomeca has asked for a higher fee to fit the LUH, with Shakti engine, jointly developed with Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), prompting the state-owned defence undertaking to look elsewhere. "We have been in dialogue with other engine manufacturers," P Soundara Rajan, managing director of HAL's helicopter complex, told The Economic Times in an interview.

The LUH, which will have both civil and military variants, will replace the obsolete Chetak and Cheetah helicopter fleets of the forces. The Shakti engine currently powers the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter-Mark-III as well as HAL's Light Combat Helicopter.

However, the Shakti has a twin-engine configuration, and HAL has been re-evaluating its options in converting it to a singleengine platform on which the LUH is based. "We will have to take a call shortly on whether the twin-engine platform will be a good fit. This should be done by the end of the year. There are design and qualification changes that have to be worked out," Soundara Rajan said.

The country's largest aeronautics company will also have to consider certification issues, such as the changes in the gearbox design, in order to incorporate the Shakti engine into the single-engine LUH, he said. "There are a number of costs involved, plus efforts in design, engineering, qualification and certification. One has to look at economic viability. These are techno-commercial decisions that have to be taken," the helicopter complex managing director said.

It is yet unclear whether the French manufacturer has drawn up a fresh proposal for the programme. In response to an email questionnaire sent by ET, Turbomeca said the Shakti engine would be "well-suited to meet the propulsion requirements of the LUH programme".

"Therefore, the possibility of its installation on this aircraft is under discussions between HAL and Turbomeca," an email from the company said. Soundara Rajan has also confirmed that HAL-Turbomeca joint venture was not under evaluation. However, companies such as Honeywell and Rolls-Royce are believed to be in talks with the state-owned defence undertaking. General Electric and Honeywell did not respond to emails sent by ET.

In an email statement, Prat & Whitney spokesperson said: "Prat & Whitney is not in discussion with HAL for engines on the LUH". In a statement, Rolls-Royce declined to comment on specifics.

"Rolls-Royce has class-leading helicopter engines that are wellmatched to LUH requirements. An opportunity to power the platform, in collaboration with Indian partners, is of high potential interest and such collaboration would draw upon our over 200 million flight hours of helicopter engine experience and decades of working in partnership with Indian industry, to serve the needs of the Indian military . However Rolls-Royce does not comment on specific on-going campaigns," it added.

Discord between partners in the defence industry is nothing new. In 2002, HAL entered into a joint venture with a Russian consortium that included aerospace giants Irkut Aviation, Ilyushin Aviation Complex and Rosoboronexport, to develop a multi-role transport aircraft for India and Russia, only for Irkut to pull out six years later. The project got back on track only in late-2009.

The Cassidian-Larsen & Toubro JV also ran into trouble after government regulator, the Foreign Investment Promotion Board , rejected their earlier proposed equity structure. The three-tonne LUH has been designated as one of HAL's future flagship products.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2011 01:02 
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we will be ever rolling the stones, and gather no mass (technical knowledge).


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PostPosted: 28 May 2011 11:08 
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This whole article could be a Chankiyan attempt by Yindoos to army twist the VIP Frenchies (in town) to get a better deal. There are many deals which could be in the Frenchies pocket (or ...). If we are seriously looking at other options after so many years, we are shooting ourselves in the foot because the same story would be repeated with the new partner after 2-3 year.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2011 14:12 
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The news and discussion on Turbomeca-HAL dispute on provision of Shakti engines for LUH; set me off on thinking on what would be the commonality of engines for Helicopters for the Largest users and producers of Helis viz., USA and Russia. Accordingly have collected the information on an excel sheet. Tried to put it up for discussion, but did not find a way. Could somebody please provide information on putting up an excel sheet on this forum.

Thanks,
Mike.


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PostPosted: 28 May 2011 14:59 
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Mike,
You could upload it to any filehosting website like rapidshare or ifile and post the link here...


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PostPosted: 28 May 2011 15:21 
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Thanks Bala, the rough comparison has been put up at the following link.

The news and discussion on Turbomeca-HAL dispute on provision of Shakti engines for LUH; set me off on thinking on what would be the commonality of engines for Helicopters for the Largest users and producers of Helis viz., USA and Russia. Accordingly have collected the information on an excel sheet.

http://thenativeopinion.blogspot.com/20 ... spute.html


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 01:01 
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Hindustan Aeronautics Light Combat Helicopter to come out with its third prototype

Quote:
BANGALORE: Hindustan Aeronautics' Light Combat Helicopter programme will soon come out with its third prototype after incorporating a host of design and production improvements. This is less than a year after the much-anticipated chopper had to abort its flying display at the country's premier air show, Aero India 2011.

...
...
The latest prototype will be lighter, have higher load limits and better camouflage. The Bangalore-based aeronautics company is currently working on the breakaway fuselage of the chopper, and expects to conduct the ground test for the same soon.

"The entire load spectrum is simulated on the ground, and the aircraft is then taken apart to see whether the intended design parameters are behaving exactly the way they should. We have completed the manufacturing of the breakaway fuselage, and it is getting instrumented now," Soundara Rajan said.

...
...


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 01:35 
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So they have designed themselves into a corner again?

I guess this will continue till they develop their own engines.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 02:28 
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Default engine thrust de-rate of 30% is a must I think for all DRDO aviation projects. We have IAF complain on LCA thrust, etc.. history of data is golden. Or build all product first cut as prototype, with heavier metals and loads, and then go on the next phase of weight reduction with advanced materials. They get in to multi-phase mode, which is good in an agile tranche sense. But, as long as it falls within schedules, no complain is high priority.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 04:07 
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EngineS!!!

India better start - right now - investing in R&D. Else this tamasha will continue.

All players have mature R&D and will not provide latest and greatest. What is provided will always be (gen - 1ish).

Local R&D cannot be beat.

And, do it very, very quietly. No need to announce anything. Serves no purpose.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 09:52 
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I feel its better to conclude a new deal with turbomeca than bring in a new vendor at this stage. the extra money turbomeca will wring out of us here will get balanced by the new product integration cost, training, time if we go elsewhere. plus with argiden we know what we are getting, the seductive charms of a another engine we have not dealt with earlier may be good - for the honeymoon period only.
in parallel start a project for "cold section" of turboshaft atleast - like the chinis are doing...mating their cold section to ardigen. start work on helicopter gearboxes , on main rotor quietening......leave the hot section for a best effort thing - kaveri-snecma needs to mature for that.

once we break out of the hot section cage, make sure everyone gets invited to a party where they are read the new laws of the land.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 11:36 
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putnanja wrote:


Will this be the size zero (Reduced weight) LCH as promised by the HAL. Or will it just be a repeat of the previous LCH weight.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 22:17 
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Pratyush wrote:
Will this be the size zero (Reduced weight) LCH as promised by the HAL. Or will it just be a repeat of the previous LCH weight.

The article you linked does state that the third prototype will be lighter.


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 22:42 
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I agree with Singha - for now we may be better off and live with the extra cost then start over and delay. As long as the contract is iron clad with deliveries and further raises

unlike the AG, these are more needed to encounter the lizard and its wh0re

Long term if we feel that they screwed us - make them pay when the time comes


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PostPosted: 01 Jun 2011 23:41 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30
Posts: 3685
Hindustan Aeronautics sees spike in light combat helicopter orders


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011 00:03 
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BRFite

Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Posts: 1648
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Noob pooch.. Though this question might have been discussed ad nauseum..
The article above indicates that the current order for Dhruv is around 159+76 WSI version..
Is it confirmed or is it just DDM???


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PostPosted: 02 Jun 2011 09:20 
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BRF Oldie

Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25
Posts: 8179
Was this posted earlier?
Prasad Sampath, GM HAL Rotary Wing R&D Center talks about the LUH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIatPdCb4ps


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