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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:05 
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Is resupply of the Chinese camp by trucks / helicopter being permitted?


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:06 
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it seems they brought some dogs with them and no doubt stocked up on tinned food before our party arrived back on the scene.
in worst case they will first eat the dogs and then a few of each other...but will stand fast because they know if they desert what will happen to their loved ones back in mainland.

I figure they could be stocked with 30 days of lean supply...enough time it is hoped for PRC to force a resolution to its liking.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:07 
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We still have problems in North East, so we cannot make big moves about Tibet issue. So, we have maximum damage to China with minimum cost or rather benefit for Indian economy.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:08 
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vic wrote:
KC Singh also says link it to trade.


You can do that, but it will take too long. This needs to be resolved in the next few days. Just surround them by a sufficiently large force, approach politely, smile, and invite them to head back. If they refuse, give them another smile and take them into custody.

Have air cover and other back-ups ready for the operation.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:09 
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I am from the north east - what problems do we have there. arunachalis , assamese, refugee tibetans would like nothing better than to beat cheen with a stick. nagaland has been outsourced to the nscn to rule as they please so long as the INC remains the official power. the rest also will strongly support any indian move.

there are more anti-india elements in the metros than in NE.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:11 
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shyamd wrote:
IA UAVs have been pressed into action. Intel at the moment is PRC have not deployed additional troops. Armed forces are following SOPs so no talking to media. Info is being tightly controlled. Some media are also keeping a distance from those in the know.


Don't push hopes up too high. Chinese may have some leverage over upavasis in 2G scam. That is why they are blackmailing now.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:12 
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Trade action take one day. Also China has been building infrastructure for 30 years, we have been importing foreign weapons to fund Italian family.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:17 
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Minister From External Players In India Mr Khurshid still plan to visit Peking for setting the agenda of how many salutes to JI when he arrives in Delhi ? The China Ambassador Li dismiss Indian concerns shows the contempt UPA government have earned in the Diplomatic circle.
IMHO, this incursion into Indian territory and sending ship to Japan shows PRC have run of constrictive ideas to deal with the neighboring countries. Just like Weakness invites aggression, wanton aggressiveness is the sign of mental weakness. No way China can compete with USA on global level with such low level mentality and intellectual inferiority.


Last edited by Jhujar on 25 Apr 2013 22:26, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:17 
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What happened to the demand to ban Chinese telecom & power equipment, is well known in all circles but cannot be posted here. Some BR members have been saying for 2 years that China is preparing to take some action to rub Indian nose in dirt. Will the Italian go and hide in Italian embassy as in 1971?


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:19 
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I am from the north east - what problems do we have there. arunachalis , assamese, refugee tibetans would like nothing better than to beat cheen with a stick. nagaland has been outsourced to the nscn to rule as they please so long as the INC remains the official power. the rest also will strongly support any indian move.

there are more anti-india elements in the metros than in NE.


+1. ArP is BJP and completely Pro-Indian. Bhutan is completely Pro India. And they are the ones that border China.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:19 
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kurshid FM is going there to beg and grovel before the han emperor on may9. so definitely no chance of any close encounter before that...still 2 weeks away...he will return tail between legs after getting a few kicks on his backside and being disrespected by some junior minister.

btw huawei has finally and officially abandoned the US telecom market per their GM...US lawmakers have made it impossible for any telco in US to buy huawei gear. right or wrong, the US knows how to play hardball and be obdurate.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:24 
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Now, Chinese choppers enter several hundred kilometres inside India {Does TOIlet know the meaning of "enter several hundred kilometers inside India" ?}

LEH/NEW DELHI: As the intruding Chinese soldiers refuse to budge from their occupied position in Daulat Beg Oldi(DBO) sector in Ladakh, two Chinese military helicopters have violated Indian airspace at Chumar, several hundred kilometres southeast of Leh, adding to the prevailing tension. The Chinese choppers entered the Indian airspace on April 21 and hovered over the area for quite sometime and returned after dropping some food cans, cigarette packets and notes written in their local language, official sources said today.

The incident happened five days after a platoon-strength contingent of China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) had come 10km inside the Indian territory in Burthe in the DBO sector on the night of April 15 and established a tented post there.

Chumar, which is about 300km from Leh, provides another access to Aksai Chin, an area which is under illegal occupation of China, besides from DBO.

After the incursion incident, Indo-Tibetan Border Police, the border guarding force, has beefed up its strength in the area and Army from the nearby location had increased its surveillance.

Last September, Chinese helicopters flew over Chumar with some of its troops even getting onto the ground. The troops destroyed bunkers and old tents of the Indian Army before returning to their own air space. The situation in the DBO sector, meanwhile, continued to remain tense with the PLA personnel, who have come with some dogs and vehicles, refusing to budge from the area.

After the flag meeting on Tuesday, India asked China to revert to the status quo position in Depsang Valley in Ladakh where troops of both countries were in a face-to-face situation after Indian military alleged that Chinese forces intruded nearly 10km inside Indian territory.

Apart from the flag meetings between the local military commanders of the two countries, the issue has also been taken up by the officials of the foreign ministries under a working mechanism that was established to address problems faced by the two armies on the ground while patrolling the vast tracks of disputed boundary.

The incident has thrown out of gear a flurry of engagements at the top between the two countries before the planned visit of Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's visit to New Delhi next month.

Li, who took over from Wen Jiabao last month, chose India to be his first trip abroad as Prime Minister to send a message of friendship as well as importance China attached to improve relations with New Delhi.

From India, Li plans to go to Pakistan, China's all weather ally.

The new Pakistan government, which is expected to be formed after elections next month, is expected to be in place when his visit take place.



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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:38 
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rohitvats wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Has somebody already posted the coordinates of the Chinese camp, so one can look at the area on Google Earth? Would also like to see a map of Indian and Chinese perceptions of LAC in the area.


As per news reports, the PLA is sitting at Burtse or thereabout. please go back some pages, I have posted a map with all important landmarks. Plus there are couple of posts with URL links to important locations for reference.


Here is the link you gave for the Burtse camp - http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.10 ... 0&z=18&m=b

About 8-10 km north of that is the Qizil Langar camping ground, then 4 km further north there is the "TAC HQ" and another 6-7 km further north is the Daulat Beg Oldi airfield.

Any idea where the Chinese cap is relative to these landmarks?

PS - OK, saw your post viewtopic.php?p=1445960#p1445960


Last edited by Pranav on 25 Apr 2013 22:44, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:40 
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vic wrote:
What happened to the demand to ban Chinese telecom & power equipment, is well known in all circles but cannot be posted here. Some BR members have been saying for 2 years that China is preparing to take some action to rub Indian nose in dirt. Will the Italian go and hide in Italian embassy as in 1971?

Banned in all border states. Notice issued last year


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:42 
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habal wrote:

Don't push hopes up too high. Chinese may have some leverage over upavasis in 2G scam. That is why they are blackmailing now.

US tried that, the Italians tried that... Did it work? Nope. Chinese can try and fail too


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:44 
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Pranav wrote:
Is resupply of the Chinese camp by trucks / helicopter being permitted?

Yes via heli. They conducted a fly over Indian camps in that area as surveillance of our moves. Pretty brazen


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 22:49 
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shyamd wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Is resupply of the Chinese camp by trucks / helicopter being permitted?

Yes via heli. They conducted a fly over Indian camps in that area as surveillance of our moves. Pretty brazen


Hmm ... is our Burtse camp manned by IA?

If they are being resupplied with no interference from our side they could stay put for a long time.

I think we need to get sufficient force levels there and crowd them out or take them into custody. First start scrambling our jets every time the helis come near.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:07 
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shyamd wrote:
vic wrote:
What happened to the demand to ban Chinese telecom & power equipment, is well known in all circles but cannot be posted here. Some BR members have been saying for 2 years that China is preparing to take some action to rub Indian nose in dirt. Will the Italian go and hide in Italian embassy as in 1971?

Banned in all border states. Notice issued last year


List the states and the conditions of ban! You will find the ban as negligible window dressing.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:08 
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How China may use current crisis to extract big concessions from India
http://m.ndtv.com/article/india/how-chi ... dia-358958

Must read. Can someone please post in full?

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Chinas- ... 730605.cms

Another must read. Entire 14 corps (35k troops) plus an arty brigade placed on high state of operational readiness. Will escalate in a calibrated manner based on PRC moves and provide time for diplomacy to work. The Toilet article contradicts earlier articles talking about helicopter sorties supporting these troops.

SF and UAVs conducting missions of monitoring PLA and their force levels.

Meanwhile IA team in PRC to finalise arrangements for the hand in hand military exercise. What no govt official or army walla is willing to reveal is that PRC soldiers in those exercises are largely MI.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:20 
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Pranav wrote:
Acharya wrote:
chellaney says India needs to reopen the 'core issue' :mrgreen: of tibet.

Because it is the right time. World opinion is against PRC or neutral to PRC right now



What is needed is firmness and strength, but without unnecessary hostility. Maybe Namo would be able to handle it right.

In the past both India and China have been manipulated by west for their own interest.

Equal-equal, eh?

I doubt Chinese will agree that they are babies who are under the psychological control of the west, with no volition.

Do you think we are?

If someone invades our country, is hostility an improper attitude?


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:24 
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Singha wrote:
any amt of shiny hw is useless if political spine is lacking. kurshid's body language and govt's manner is defeatist in extreme. writing is on wall. retreat, shame and defeat are familiar companions whenever india has been ruled by weak pleasure seeking ruling class. :D

on other hand the rag tag equipped vietcong first defeated the french and then the US because they were ready to fight with whatever they had - rubber chappals and knockoff ak47, regardless of the B52 and napalm raiding death on their villages. cheen also fought US to a standstill in Noko and gave birth to that puppet state. even the iraqi insurgents with crude IEDs gave a strong fight to khan army and are now busy killing each other.

muscles without a heart is just a limp corpse.

+1 rubber chappal vietnamese also kicked out khmer rouge and taught a lesson to chinese lesson-teachers.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:29 
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shyamd wrote:
Another must read. Entire 14 corps (35k troops) plus an arty brigade placed on high state of operational readiness. Will escalate in a calibrated manner based on PRC moves and provide time for diplomacy to work. The Toilet article contradicts earlier articles talking about helicopter sorties supporting these troops.

SF and UAVs conducting missions of monitoring PLA and their force levels.

The TOI article sounds more reassuring but we had better make concrete plans for interception of any attempts to resupply by land or air.

Also, IMO gradual but steady build-up of force levels needs to start immediately.


Last edited by Pranav on 25 Apr 2013 23:43, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:35 
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Pranav wrote:

One should listen to and understand the other side. The Chinese may have had their own perceptions of Nehru's policies of allowing the CIA to train Tibetans, for example.

One has to understand the differences between the outlook and long-term objectives of the Sinic civilization vs. those of the western power structure. China is important because it is one major power which is least subverted. Far more independent than India.

From Indian POV, the policies of the western power structure have arguably been more damaging. Are those advocating hostility willing to show at least as much hostility towards the west?

Not that I am advocating hostility towards anybody ... ultimately one has to do whatever it takes to advance national interest, including cooperating with the west where necessary. Strength and vigilance, with understanding, is the best approach.


Pranav's post is valuable and should be archived under good posts. It is a great reference for the specious rationalizations that Indian ruling class routinely exhibits.


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:39 
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India China Border Stand Off: De-Escalate, Delineate And Set Norms – Analysis


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PostPosted: 25 Apr 2013 23:45 
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KLNMurthy wrote:
Pranav wrote:

One should listen to and understand the other side. The Chinese may have had their own perceptions of Nehru's policies of allowing the CIA to train Tibetans, for example.

One has to understand the differences between the outlook and long-term objectives of the Sinic civilization vs. those of the western power structure. China is important because it is one major power which is least subverted. Far more independent than India.

From Indian POV, the policies of the western power structure have arguably been more damaging. Are those advocating hostility willing to show at least as much hostility towards the west?

Not that I am advocating hostility towards anybody ... ultimately one has to do whatever it takes to advance national interest, including cooperating with the west where necessary. Strength and vigilance, with understanding, is the best approach.


Pranav's post is valuable and should be archived under good posts. It is a great reference for the specious rationalizations that Indian ruling class routinely exhibits.


Hello, what are you disputing.

Be specific.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 00:50 
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Frankly, I am sick and tired of the world leaders, "think tank" expert types, analysts, media and particularly Indian politicians, media and experts spewing out the same of platitudes about India-China relations as a backdrop to any aggressive moves by China. Let me give you a few examples of some patently annoying nonsense that keeps being parroted by all and sundry.

1. India and China are two emerging powers in Asia and therefore, "NEITHER" wants an escalation or a war and actually both want good relations with each other.

2. That the key here is trade. With the increase in bi-lateral trade, both countries will be able to resolve all problems amicably and develop almost a "partnership" in this century.

3. India and China share a long border mostly through the mountainous terrain and that incursions are quite common and mostly inadvertent on the Chinese side because after all the Chinese and Indians have different perceptions of where the LAC actually is in most cases. Overall, the Indo-Chinese border is very "tranquil and calm".

4. That there is a process in place (with some complicated and long name) which is used to resolved issues such as these.

5. That India does not want to do anything to jeopardise the upcoming high level meeting between the two heads of states or two foreign ministers, or two defense ministers or the two negotiators or even the two Vice Admirals from both sides.

6. That when the Indian media "finds out" about these incursions despite the "Indian Government's attempts to low-key" them, the Indian media reacts "emotionally" to such events (presumably well beyond proportion of provocation).

7. That the Indian Government would be prudent to put forward a "calm" response to this "nuanced" Chinese policy of expanding its influence in Asia and "maintaining good relations" with all its neighbors including India.

8. That the jury is still out if the rising China will be an aggressive or militarily expansionist China or an emerging positive force for good in the World. All efforts should be made to ensure (the burden is on others including India) that China doesnt become the former.

9. Nobody wants war as war will only affect the millions of impoverished people in the Indian subcontinent.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 01:14 
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Looks to me this Chinese Kargil. They occupy positions on Indian side dont vacate them as they did previous years. Meantime India is filled with Chinese fifth columnists including former officers who should know better.

Eg.

Hindu idiotorial

Restraint is the key

Quote:
The Line of Actual Control is crossed many times each year as if to underline the fact that India and China do not agree fully on its contours, but the latest incursion by Chinese troops in Ladakh has cast a shadow on the new warmth in ties between New Delhi and the new leadership in Beijing because the troops have stayed put and not returned. Just a month ago, at their meeting on the sidelines of the BRICS summit in Durban, Chinese President Xi Jinping told Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that the two countries must “broaden exchanges and cooperation between their armed forces and deepen mutual military and security trust.” President Xi also talked about both sides striving towards “a fair, rational solution” on the border issue “as soon as possible.” Further, he said both countries should “continue to safeguard peace in their border areas and prevent the issue from affecting bilateral relations.” The developments in Daulat Beg Oldie, 10 km inside Indian territory, near Burthe in eastern Ladakh, are contradictory to the spirit of the sentiments expressed by the Chinese President. A flag meeting between the two sides on Tuesday, the second in a week, failed to resolve the issue, and the PLA soldiers continue to camp on the Indian side. To their credit, :eek: both governments have seen the wisdom of not allowing the matter to escalate, and have been restrained in their statements.

In the last decade or so, both sides have tried to quarantine the border issue from the rest of the bilateral relationship, succeeding in large measure. India and China have held 15 rounds of talks on their border dispute since 2005; additionally, in 2012, a border management mechanism was set up to sort out potential threats to ‘peace and tranquillity’. Meanwhile, trade relations have grown to a point where they are routinely cited as a model in how nations with a border dispute can still have civil ties. Despite many other irritants, there have been high-level contacts to widen engagement to strategic and security related issues, including a bilateral dialogue on Afghanistan, and an agreement on maritime co-operation. On the military front too, there has been interaction. Army exercises are planned and there is greater coordination on anti-piracy measures. Unfortunately, incidents such as the one in Ladakh take away from these successes, feeding into unhelpful popular perceptions about India-China relations. :eek: The scheduled visit by Premier Li Keqiang next month, in itself significant as it is likely to be his first tour abroad after assuming office, is now likely to be dominated by the border issue. It is essential that both sides work swiftly to clear the air.


Rascal acts like a disinterested party inside India advising restrain to both sides! When China is recalictrant how does India get tagged by Indian elite?

Ajai Shukla in Business Standard

China's 3rd Confrontation with Indi's Border Build-Up

See he blames India.
How did he get selected and be a colonel in Ind Army? Must be the UPSC's JNU quota.

Quote:
China's intrusion into the Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) sector, at the northern tip of India just below the towering Karakoram Pass, is a demonstration of anger - certainly that of the People's Liberation Army (PLA), and possibly that of Beijing as well - at the Indian Army's third surge towards the Sino-Indian border.

The first Indian move to militarily occupy the Sino-Indian border began after 1957, when New Delhi discovered that China had built a nearly 200-km highway through the Aksai Chin, a high altitude desert that abuts Ladakh on the east. Belatedly realising the need to establish a presence along its claim lines in Ladakh and the North East Frontier Agency (NEFA, now Arunachal Pradesh), New Delhi rushed troops into these unknown areas in what was known as the "Forward Policy". With the PLA fearing that India was backing a massive Tibetan rebellion, and with that apprehension inflamed by the refuge that New Delhi granted the Dalai Lama in 1959, the Indian move forward degenerated into war.


{Idiot how is responding to China's illegal and surreptious building of Aksai Chin road an Indian troop surge?}

The second Indian move to the border began in 1982. Army chief, General KV Krishna Rao persuaded prime minister Indira Gandhi that 20 years of fearful holding back had to end and the Indian Army moved forward again, deploying in strength over the next four years in Tawang and Chushul. In 1986, a Chinese patrol pitched tents in a disputed area called Wangdung, north of Tawang, triggering a furious Indian Army build up that came close to actual hostilities. China sought a flag meeting; the PLA realised that it was dealing with a very different Indian Army from the one it had whipped in 1962. Diplomatic engagement led to Rajiv Gandhi's 1988 visit to China. In 1993, prime minister Narasimha Rao visited Beijing and signed an "Agreement on the Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the India-China Border Area," which maintains a largely peaceful border even today.

{Again refer to previous comment. How is responding to Chinese pitching tents on Inidan side of LAC a troop surge?}

We are now in the middle of the third Indian surge to the border and, like the previous two, it is being contested by China. It began with the raising of two Indian mountain divisions for the defence of Arunachal Pradesh and with the activation of three Sukhoi-30 fighter bases in the Brahmaputra valley. Simultaneously, seven Advanced Landing Grounds in Arunachal were refurbished, permitting their use for forward replenishment and for heliborne operations. Two armoured brigades are being raised and a mountain strike corps will begin raising shortly. The improvement of road infrastructure forms a part of this effort.

In Ladakh, too, India is thickening its presence on the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the de facto border with China. The arrival of 8 Mountain Division in Kargil during the Kargil War freed a full brigade for the LAC. With militancy reducing in Kashmir, another brigade moved out to Chushul. Landing grounds were activated in Nyoma and DBO and roads started coming up to connect isolated posts.

All this raises China's hackles. Road building near the LAC, especially in the areas of Chushul-Demchok and a new alignment that will connect DBO, has been steadfastly resisted by the PLA. Chinese patrols objected to new bunkers built by the Indian Army near Chushul several years ago; like today, the PLA retaliated by establishing a camp on India's side of the LAC, forcing the Indian Army to negotiate a settlement. The current PLA encampment at DBO is again retaliation for Indian Army defences constructed elsewhere.

{Throughout the sixities thru 80s the Communists of all shades used to blame the 1962 Chinese agggression on India. This man is doing the same here.}


The Indian Army has no good options in DBO, unlike in 1986 during the Wangdung intrusion. Then, the army was close to its road head and the helicopter base at Tawang, permitting a massive build up that quickly dominated the Chinese camp (that the Chinese are still there is another matter). Today India has no surface link to DBO, and the DBO landing ground permits only a limited build-up. In contrast the Chinese enjoy a road link to their camp across the wide Depsang Plain. Like in 1962, India's logistical build up has not kept up with the operational build up. Now, there is little option but to negotiate a Chinese withdrawal.

China has clearly signalled its discomfort with India's troop build up, submitting a draft proposal for a freeze on troop levels that will solidify and make permanent India's disadvantage along the LAC. The ministry of external affairs (MEA), eager to create "deliverables" that could create an air of success around Chinese Premier Li Keqiang's visit to India next month, is studying the proposal.

China's strategy is evident: to confine Indian strategic attention to the Sino-Indian border, preventing New Delhi from looking beyond at Tibet and Xinjiang, China's most sensitive pressure points. Beijing apprehends - with the fearfulness of a state that knows its weaknesses - that signing a border settlement would free India from the burden of having to continually lay claim to, and physically defend, a challenged border. China realises that a settlement would change the fundamental nature of the New Delhi-Beijing engagement. No longer a supplicant, India could raise the issue of Tibet, a lead that western democracies would quickly follow.

So far, India's military, bureaucracy and political elite have fallen for China's game, directing their energies into placating China in the hope of a border settlement. Realising our ill preparedness to defend our territorial claims has created endemic strategic defensiveness. New Delhi remains disinclined to change the game by challenging China on Tibet.

This remains so despite frequent reminders of China's vulnerabilities. On Tuesday, 21 people were killed near Kashgar, in Xinjiang, in a violent armed stand off. The anger against Beijing in its restive border regions was again underlined on Wednesday when two Tibetan monks in Sichuan set themselves afire, adding to the gory tally of more than 100 self-immolations since 2011. China has flooded Xinjiang and Tibet with black-suited armed militias, whose members now carry portable fire extinguishers to douse Tibetans who are attempting self-immolation. But there remains widespread resentment at Beijing's increasingly colonial presence in these areas.

In contrast, India's border population along the LAC remains heartwarmingly Indian. In Ladakh, Himachal, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh, despite New Delhi's inexplicable neglect, pro-India sentiment is high and China is regarded with distrust and suspicion that is constantly reinforced from across the border.

{i]{Later part of his article is good.}[/i]



Meanwhile just like in 1962,

PTI reports:


Quote:
NEW DELHI: A major reshuffle is expected in the top Army brass with several new appointments being made in key formations, including the Udhampur-based Northern Command of the force.

Present western Army commander Lt Gen Sanjiv Chachra has been recommended to be shifted to head the Northern Command to succeed Lt Gen KT Parnaik, who is retiring on June 30, officials said.

Lt Gen Chachra is expected to be replaced by Lt Gen Philip Campose, who is currently heading the perspective planning (PP) directorate at the Army headquarters here.

Present Director General (IT) Lt Gen Sanjeev Madhok is expected to be elevated as the chief of Army's Shimla-based Training Command, the officials said.

Central Army commander Lt Gen Anil Chait is expected to be shifted to head the tri-services integrated defence services headquarters in Delhi while he is expected to be succeeded by Lt Gen Rajan Bakshi, they said.

Bakshi is presently heading the Leh-based 14 Corps. The defence ministry has given its approval to the new appointments and has forwarded the proposal for final clearance by the appointments committee of the Cabinet.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 01:42 
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Ajai Shukla on NDTV claims that Sumdorong chu is in possession of China.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/left-r ... /272492?hp

Is this true?. Can any one confirm?.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 01:50 
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Pardon me, but unless we make fundamental changes in our approach, this is the blast from the future:

Quote:
TNN Bangalore: April 5, 2039: The Shahi Imam of the Islamic Republic of Uttar Mughalistan (formerly known as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar) announced the taller than oceans and deeper than mountains relationship with China on the 20th anniversary of Chinese reclamation of Bodh Gaya . The announcement came from the rebuilt ramparts of the Grand Babri Masjid destroyed by Hindu fanatics decades ago at Islampur (formerly Ayodhya) at a function held for the Chinese Ambassador to Uttar Mughalistan. 20 subversive Nepalese leaders were handed to Chinese police at a border checkpost South of Kathmandu, highlighting close anti terrorist cooperation between China and Uttar Mughalistan.

The President of UM endorsed the controversial move of handing over Mukteshwar, Ramgarh and upper reaches of Uttaranchal to the Chinese in a deal done last decade. India's aggressive takeover of Noida in a pre-emptive military maneuver prior to formation of Mughalistan and subsequent building of an electrified fencing is one of several major disputes with Uttar Mughalistan. Britain and US have condemned India's aggression over the NOIDA territory. China endorses a peaceful resolution of the NOIDA dispute. Both countries claim that territory.

The President also opposed the electrified fencing off Jharkhand, Chattisgarh with Mughalistan by India and requested China to supply 200 J XX fighters to help maintain the balance of power in the region. Many parts of Chattisgarh, MP and Rajasthan borders are disputed. Artillery firing over several sectors has made life for local villagers unbearable. Respected peace Laureate Aruna Roy in Guardian mentions increased defense spending on both sides to be a major cause of poverty in both feuding nations.

Reports also mentioned the Chinese leadership displayed disappointment with Indian leadership over misuse of Chinese myths by Indian citizens, specially naming people and places after Shiva and Vishnu. Prof Ravichandran Guha, a leading expert in China studies has argued credibly that the Chinese have a point. Just like companies in China are not allowed to brand products as Apple, or Appal or Appel, brand equity for Chinese ownership over the Myths of Shiva and Vishnu is diluted. The Indian Foreign Minister Salman Khurram says constructive talks with Chinese leaders are on this issue. WHen pressed by reporters on Chinese issuing staple Visas to those whose names are are Vishnu, Shiva, Gautam he was emphatic that India has taken a strong stance and had issued a Demarche to the Chinese Ambassador in the Capital city of Bangalore.

Foreign Minister Khurram urged the visiting Chinese Minister to use his good offices to request Uttar Mughalistan to issue visas to pilgrims for the Kumbh Mela at Allahabad, a practice discontinued for 2 decades. Last year Mughalistan executed 7 Indians who crossed illegally to take a dip in the Ganges. The Minister said India had strongly protested the outrage and also then given a demarche to the Mughalistan Ambassador and presented a 300 page dossier.

Mani Swamy Aiyer since has made several trips on track 2 diplomacy and says "the hospitality received in Mughalistan is over whelming and the people are just like us. We need to engage with the peace lobby in Mughalistan. Religion and politics must not come in the way of brotherly relations between the two nations."

Meanwhile India has received a loan from IMF to put storage tankers at sea and produce much needed fresh water. Under the Ganges Yamuna Treaty of Mughalistan, India gets 5% of waters which are not enough for it's need. Even that Indians claim is being violated. Indian Foreign Minister Salman Khurram thanked China for voting in India's favor and thus helping secure the IMF loan. There were no negative votes for India. Even Mughalistan did not vote against the loan for India, though experts off the record say is due to Chinese pressure. Leading GCC experts have pointed that a sign of growing maturity in diplomatic behind the scene consultations between the GCC, Islamabad, Islampur and China with Bangalore. A sign many in the Indian media and establishment say point to the fact that despite Indo-Chinese differences, we can work together to solve our problems. IN that light Guha has acknowledged the success of the border treaties with China South of Simla. The Indo-Chinese borders south of Dharmasala and The East-West Siliguri belt are cited were cited as examples of mature cooperation between the 2 nations after a century of mistrust.

Hardline Hindu nationalists demanded in the Indian parliament taxing the Mughalistan-Pakistan Road corridor in lieu of more water rights. India which had acknowledged the demand and provided a transit fee free corridor between Mughalistan and Pakistan decades ago said there was no question it would dishonor the treaty of free transit. Talks were on also between Islamabad, Islampur, Bangalore on the question of illegal immigrants misusing the free tranist corridor. Both Pakistan and Mughalistan maintain there were no illegal migration and misuse. They blame India for blocking the passage of 40 Tanks and 136 heavy artillery vehicles from Islamabad to Mughalistan. The case has been taken to the International courts. Indian sources say they have a strong case of blocking the artillery and tanks. The ruling they say will probably be restricted to 2 tanks and 20 heavy artillery pieces every week as a face saving gesture for Islamabad and Islampur at the maximum.

Indian Hindu nationalists also created an uproar in parliament on news that the Indian PM decided to de link talks and terror. Coming soon after the massive attacks in Chennai, Vizag, Cochin the leadership stressed that we will have to continue to live as neighbors and terror affects both countries. Aruna Roy in landmark article in the Guardian had earlier stressed that Saffron terror and misuse of Chinese symbols was a major cause of distrust between these neighboring nations. Many Indians have stopped naming Children after Shiva and Vishnu. Noted leftist Mr Bannerjee in the Hindu even suggested making a list of names and seeking approval from Chinese authorities which ones would be acceptable. Mr Guha approves of such venture and talks as they will bring trust and show China, that India is sensitive about Chinese legacy issues on misuse of names like Gautama and Shiva. Leaders and experts are of the opinion that violence and war are not an option or solution to the development and improvement of ties.


Last edited by harbans on 26 Apr 2013 02:46, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 02:25 
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Pranav wrote:
shyamd wrote:
Another must read. Entire 14 corps (35k troops) plus an arty brigade placed on high state of operational readiness. Will escalate in a calibrated manner based on PRC moves and provide time for diplomacy to work. The Toilet article contradicts earlier articles talking about helicopter sorties supporting these troops.

SF and UAVs conducting missions of monitoring PLA and their force levels.

The TOI article sounds more reassuring but we had better make concrete plans for interception of any attempts to resupply by land or air.

Also, IMO gradual but steady build-up of force levels needs to start immediately.


Okay. Then what? Attack? Do you honestly believe Congress will stick it to the Chinese? We can't even deal with the Pakistanis or Sri Lankans.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 02:51 
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/donaldkirk/ ... himalayas/
China's Thrust In The High Himalayas
Quote:
can it really be that China wants to flex its muscles against India in a repetition of the Sino-Indian border war of the fall of 1962 that resulted in at least 2,000 killed, two thirds of them Indian? Almost without anyone noticing what was going on, two dozen Chinese troops have moved about six miles beyond the “Line of Actual Control” that’s viewed, at least in New Delhi, as India’s de facto northernmost border.A few dozen Indian troops have set up camp several hundred meters from the Chinese in a confrontation that no one quite expects to burst into bloodshed. Should not loudspeaker demands to get out, and banners strung up bearing the same message, be enough to persuade the Chinese to decide, We’ve made our point and now we can leave. That’s how it’s been in hundreds of such “intrusions,” as they’re delicately called, over the decades since the two sides were actually shooting at one another in a contest in which the Chinese definitely proved their prowess.
This time, though, the Chinese are staying much longer than usual in a most inhospitable region covered with snow and ice at altitudes of several thousand meters. Much to the consternation of Indian policy-makers, the Chinese commander has refused to come to any agreement or understanding with the Indian commander. This time around, the Chinese seemed more determined than usual to nip away at the Indian lines — and Indian self-esteem.The Chinese would seem to have already amply proved their military superiority by refusing to consider abandoning a virtually uninhabited region called Aksai Chin that the Chinese took over in 1962 and have held ever since. The region is so desolate, so difficult to defend and of so little immediate value that India virtually ceded it while still claiming it. The Line of Actual Control, as far as the Indians are concerned, is the border separating the territory the Indians still hold from Chinese-held territory.There is a feeling in Delhi of, this can’t be, and won’t this latest hassle go away. That’s partly because China’s premier, Li Keqiang, is due to come to Delhi next month to meet India’s Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh. They should have a lot to talk about, including the problem of China diverting precious waters by damming the enormous rivers that flow out of China through northern India and neighboring Bangladesh. The Indus River flows out of Tibet, through northern India south of the disputed line with China before cutting through Pakistan.The Chinese and Indian leaders may decide they have much more to worry about than the latest Chinese incursion. China is Pakistan’s biggest arms supplier. India imports arms from Russia and the U.S., not from China. The image of Chinese troops hanging out in tents way up there on the roof of India is just a symbol of much larger problems.In a larger sense, the Chinese intrusion symbolizes Chinese muscle-flexing from the South China Sea, which it claims as its own, to the East China Sea, where the Chinese face off against Japan’s hold over an island cluster known as the Senkakus to the Japanese, Daioyu to the Chinese. And then there’s China’s complex relationship with North Korea, which China keeps on life support with fuel and food while North Korea threatens South Korea, Japan and the U.S. with nuclear war.On the periphery of China, two dozen Chinese troops huddled in tents at an altitude of nearly 6,000 meters are at the tip of the point of China’s expansionist aims throughout Asia.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 03:01 
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PTI reports reassuringly:

New Delhi: Considering the threat perception from both China and Pakistan, the Indian Air force (IAF) has upgraded its capabilities to meet any challenge from the two fronts simultaneously. These capabilities were tested successfully for the first time during the recent three-week war games 'Livewire' in which over 400 fighter jets participated, IAF sources said on Monday.

In the exercise, which commenced on March 18, the IAF created a simulated scenario of a challenge from both eastern and western fronts simultaneously. Testing its capabilities to meet the challenge, the IAF swiftly mobilised its frontline fighter and transport aircraft from Pakistan border to the eastern front, particularly the recently-developed Advanced Landing Grounds (ALGs) in the Northeast, the sources said.

All the major aircraft of the IAF including the Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguars, MiG 29, MiG 27s and the MiG 21s took part in the war games. They said the force kept the required number of aircraft in the western front while mobilising the majority of its assets including the mid-air refuelling aircraft towards the eastern front, they said.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 03:55 
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Telegraph, Sujjan Dutta has an article

the image is here
Image


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 04:06 
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The Chinese LAC even in wildest dreams cannot extend to the earmarked areas in the 1st photograph!


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 04:42 
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If I was Chinese, I would be in two minds about whether to turn this into a defiant "loss of face" issue and make India blink first, OR risk increasing attention on the Tibet question, which is the 'core issue' here as suggested by Prof. Brahma Chellaney.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 05:06 
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Salman Khurshid is the worst foreign minister India has ever had. He should be sacked immediately. No self-respecting country should have to tolerate a person who is openly hostile to its national interest as their representative. Dr. Manmohan Singh needs to find and apply the ointment that erases a national embarrassment like Salman Khurshid. He needs to go back to stealing money from charity.

Quote:
Incursion acne, can be cured with ointment, says Khurshid

"Somebody asked me is the standoff with China going to dilute your friendship, will it derail your relationship with China, will it mean you will not visit China, will it mean the premier of China will not visit India?" Khurshid said at a FICCI function Thursday.

"Doomsday predictions are absolutely absurd. It's absurd not so much for China as it's absurd for us," he said. "We shouldn't destroy years of investment, years of contribution that we have made to this relationship because somewhere some little thing goes wrong. One little spot is acne, which cannot force you to say that this is not a beautiful face... that acne can be addressed by simply applying an ointment," he said, adding this should not be considered as surrender or admission of defeat.

"Ointment is part of the process of growing up, just as acne is part of the process of growing up. And the relation between India and China is a relationship which is growing up. We started off as children who fought over something they needed, demanded or believed were theirs. They have grown up into two beautiful adults who can talk about these things and who can find a solution," he said.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 05:17 
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Location: जो हिंदू हित की बात करेगा वही देश पर राज करेगा !!!
Its time we play this game of being unpredictable for change.

Fire three brahmos on these yellow little bandit soldiers, make them part of stone and dust of Himalyas.

1st report comes in newspapers about failed cruise missile test of brahmos.

Which the DRDO denies, by "No no failure".

then newspapers insist that missiles have been tested and failed.

DRDO comes back with 'No there has been no missile test, so no question of failure.'

Meanwhile chinese are hakka-bakka not knowing what to do, while Bhartiya Sena continuous to mobilise, all over LAC with building of new bunkers starts on the same spot where 3 brahmos turned those yellow soldiers into charcol grey powder. Sukhois, Jaguars, baaz & vajras doing CAPs.

Then another report in media that in fact 3 missiles were not tested but fired in anger at poor yellow lil' soldiers, while some other mediamen raising doubt over these reports.

Then on govt. direction an officer who retires this month, tells the whole story on a newschannel making the chinese a laughing stock.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 06:14 
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RoyG wrote:
Okay. Then what? Attack? Do you honestly believe Congress will stick it to the Chinese? We can't even deal with the Pakistanis or Sri Lankans.


Apparently the tactic of crowding them out has been used with success on previous such occasions. Preferable to push them back without any shooting, as far as possible.


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 06:57 
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editor of orbat.com is scathing as usual :)

Friday 0230 GMT April 26, 2013

· India and Chinese intrusions: oh no not again! Alas, it is all over again. The Chinese have walked 10-km into India, set up a platoon post, thus signaling they intended to stay for an unknown amount of time. In the last two years, they have intruded 478 times into Indian territory. Why do they do this? To use the inane American expression, because they can. This is all part of their “sophisticated” diplomacy that is so complex, layered, and nuance that only they can fully appreciate it. In the real world what they are doing is called aggression and thuggery.

· The Chinese are intruding for two reasons. One is to underline to the Indians that for all the hot air that wafts north from the Indian plains, extolling the greatness of India, the Chinese are the lords and we pathetic Indians are the vassals. It’s simply a strategy of psychological intimidation, where the superior yellow race keeps the inferior brown race in its place – which is firmly under China’s fat, stinky foot. The second reason is the Chinese want to force India to formally recognize Beijing’s claims to Ladakh, in exchange they will recognize India’s possession of Arunachal Pradesh.

· The Chinese must believe the Indians are morons, because while they have possession of their Ladakh claim, they have no possession of Arunachal Pradesh and no hope of ever gaining possession. This is like the thief in the night who occupies one room of your house, and then says he is prepared to recognize your occupation of the rest of your house, as long as you accept his right to that one room.

· Now, while the Indians are the biggest cowards in the known universe, they are not morons. They have steadfastly insisted that the border can be satisfactorily demarcated – once China vacates the parts of Indian Ladakh that they seized in 1959-1962. In other words, the demarcated border will become the line of control as it existed before 1959.

· Accordingly the Chinese, after decades of failing to coerce India to their terms, decided some years ago to show India that intransigence has a cost, and so you’re getting a situation where an average of 20 intrusions a month has become routine. The idea in large is intimidation, in small it is salami tactics. China plains to gain more Indian territory, which it is always willing to give back to India – providing India dances to Beijing’s tune.

· Imagine if during the Cold War – or even today – the Russians established an army post 10-kilometers into Alaska. What would America’s response be? At the very least it would be to kick out the Russians, followed by strong punishment to ensure there was no repeat.

· What has India’s reaction been to this new and deep intrusion? Well, we’ve sent the Indo-Tibetan Border Police to set up a counter-post 300-meters away. The purpose of this post is to watch the Chinese post. The ITBP is not police, but a very-well trained high-mountain force. The Indian Army has also sent troops from 5th Ladakh Scouts to back up the ITBP, and is considering moving up more troops. 5 Ladakh normally covers the Daulat Beg Oldi sector. This sector is at the extreme northeast of Ladakh and is known for the highest operational airfield in the world, at about 5800-meters.

· Not without coincidence, India has been upgrading Ladakh air bases long abandoned since India decided there was no more threat from China. Daulat Beg Oldi is one such base. Of course, India is remilitarizing the northern border because China took us for a ride – as always with the Chinese. They sweet-talked us into demilitarizing the border, which was solely to their advantage and not ours, and then they started pushing us around. So for China to say “well, you’re building up on the border” is a bit disingenuous. The China-India border would be demilitarized today had China not decided to walk into Tibet starting 1957 or so and occupying Indian territory in the Northeast.

· China’s response to this new crisis is a good-humored big-brother-speaking-kindly-to-little-brother approach. The Chinese say there is no crisis. After all, the border is undemarcated and these differences will take place. Why not demarcate the border once and for all? On our terms, of course. If China were really serious about peaceful relations with India, it would leave Indian Ladakh and agree to a 40-km DMZ between the two countries. Then intrusions wouldn’t happen. That, and not preposterous Chinese claims to Indian territory, is the solution – if China wants peace. Which of course it doesn’t.

· Do the Chinese realize that if India followed China’s fantasy policy of claiming all territory to the watershed, it would have to withdraw at least 100-km back north in the Northeast? India controls the heights, the watershed is that of the Bhramaputra, which would put India within a day’s striking distance of Lhasa.

· But again, our point here is not to condemn China. The strong do as they will, the weak must live as they can with the consequences. By “observing” this incursion and making vague references to Sumdorongchu 1986, India is already wimping out. There should be no discussion. Indian Army should be told to capture the Chinese outpost, a company-sized operation at most. The prisoners should be immediately handed to the Red Cross for transfer to China. No warnings, no discussion. Does anyone seriously think China will escalate when all India is doing is pushing the Chinese back across the claim line that they made up? If it escalates, the implication is it wants war. Good. Give it war, and take back Ladakh. It is a complete fantasy to think the Chinese can take on India in the north. It does not help this fantasy is perpetuated by India itself.

· The way to handle a hardball player is to play hardball. Not send your foreign minister on a previously arranged visit where he will add the Depsang Valley intrusion to a list of things to be discussed.


It is said a brave man dies just once, a coward dies a thousand times. Anyone in Delhi listening?


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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2013 07:12 
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Singha wrote:
editor of orbat.com is scathing as usual :)

Seems to have some inaccuracies -

Quote:
· Now, while the Indians are the biggest cowards in the known universe, they are not morons. They have steadfastly insisted that the border can be satisfactorily demarcated – once China vacates the parts of Indian Ladakh that they seized in 1959-1962. In other words, the demarcated border will become the line of control as it existed before 1959.


As per Kanwal Sibal on timesnow, it is the Chinese that are resisting demarcation.

Quote:
It is a complete fantasy to think the Chinese can take on India in the north. It does not help this fantasy is perpetuated by India itself.

Practically speaking, from their side they have a wide, mostly flat plain, with good roads, whereas from our side we have very mountainous terrain to cross and a toehold on the said plain on the other side of the mountains. It would probably be much easier for them it bring tanks to Daulat Beg Oldi than it would be for us. Not that these disadvantages cannot be handled with good planning and technology, but these statements smack of emotionalism.


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