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Jagan
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2010 11:03 
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http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/pakis ... feedburner

Quote:
Pakistan Army admits to Kargil martyrs
Press Trust of India, Updated: November 18, 2010 19:05 IST


Islamabad: Eleven years after the Kargil War, the Pakistan Army which has been denying its role in the conflict has quietly put the names of 453 soldiers and officers killed in the battle on its website.

Proof of the involvement of regular Pakistani soldiers in the 1999 Kargil War over a string of strategic heights in the Kargil sector of the Line of Control in 1999 has come from an institution that spent years denying its role in the hostilities with India, the Pakistan Army.

The 453 Pakistani soldiers were shown killed in Batalik-Kargil sector in Jammu and Kashmir.

The names of those who died in Kargil are tucked away in a list of thousands of personnel killed while on duty that has been posted in the "Shuhada's Corner" (Martyrs Corner) of the website.


The very first page of the long list of martyrs includes the names of Capt Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan, who were both killed on July 7, 1999 in Kargil and awarded Pakistan's highest military award, the Nishan-e-Haider.

Several others were posthumously given other gallantry awards like the Tamgha-e-Jurat (Medal of Courage).

The army also reveals the codename given to the operation to occupy strategic mountains and heights on the Indian side of the LoC "Operation Koh-e-Paima" or Mountain of Resolve.

In some cases, the campaign is also referred to as "Operation Kargil".

A majority of those who died in Kargil were soldiers from the Northern Light Infantry, a formation that was made a regular regiment of the Pakistan Army because of its performance in the 1999 conflict.

It was earlier a paramilitary force formed by the amalgamation of several militias from the Northern Areas or Gilgit-Baltistan.

Several causes are cited for those who died in Kargil "killed in action", "enemy action", "enemy firing", "enemy artillery shelling" and even "road accident".

The list gives the name, rank, unit, and location and nature of death of each
casualty.

During the Kargil conflict and in subsequent years, the Pakistan Army insisted that none of its regular soldiers were involved in the hostilities.



Kudos to whoever did the story in PTI. I saw the shuhada section on the army site a week or so back. The thought of harvesting the data of it occurred but didnt really follow up. Someone seems to have actually done it. great job!
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VinodTK
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2010 04:05 
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Indian artillery inflicted maximum damage to Pak during Kargil

Quote:
The reasons for the maximum number of deaths given by the Pakistani army was "En Arty shelling" or "En shelling".
''En'' stands for Enemy, an obvious reference to Indian troops.
The Indian soldiers also killed another about 160 of regular Pakistani army men in exchange of fire with their hand-held assault weapons or as Pakistan puts it, "En Action".
Besides the exchange of fire, the Indian Army men also killed about 90 Pakistan Army personnel by shooting them down.
The reason given to such deaths was "En fire".
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anupmisra
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2010 06:45 
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Didnt Nawaz admit that the pakis lost over 5,000 soldiers?
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rohitvats
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2010 18:09 
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Many of the NLI Battalions had ceased to be effective fighting force during the Kargil War itself due to casualties (KIA and WIA)....the number of soldiers dead is bound to be high.
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2010 18:16 
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Am unable to get any search result except for Lalak Jan and Karnal Sher. :oops: Anybody have better luck? Will be nice to get it on xls

anup,

There are varying estimates on the number of Pakistani dead. Indian Army quotes 494 killed, which is fairly close to the official PA figure:

Quote:
A careful assessment of Pakistan Army casualties in Operation VIJAY has been carried out, based on a multiplicity of inputs. It is our belief that, 737 Pakistani soldiers to include 45 officers 68 Special Service Group (SSG) soldiers and 13 ISI personnel, died in about two months of operations that ensued in the Kargil Sector. That besides, two Prisoner's of War were taken in the Yaldor Sector. Naik Inayat Ali of 5 Northern Light Infantry was captured at Pt 4812, inside the Batalik Sector, on 03 Jul 99. On 15 Jul 99, Sepoy Humar Shah also of 5 Northern Light Infantry, was taken prisoner at the Padma Go heights, again in the Batalik Sector. Both bear ample proof of Pakistan Army's involvement inside Indian territory.

Of the assessed casualties, 494 Pakistan Army soldiers are known to be killed in action with our troops. 23 bodies have been positively identified as Pakistan Army regulars, while the units of 471 personnel cannot be clearly identified.


Documents such as identity cards, personal pay books, personal letters, military vouchers and other belongings found on the bodies reveal likely identities of the following deceased Pakistan Army soldiers:

Quote:
3 Northern Light Infantry (NLI)
Sepoy Mehboob Ali

4 NLI
Naik Shanbaz Ali
Naik Mubarak Shah
Lance Naik Mir Baaz Khan
Sepoy Mohd Ayaz
Sepoy Sherbaz Khan

5 NLI
Major Javed
Captain Izhar
Sepoy Abdul Rauf

6 NLI
Havildar Afraz Gul
Sepoy Mohd Sadiq

165 Mortar Regiment
Captain Imtiaz (Resident of Islamabad)

12 NLI
Major Iqbal
Captain Karnal Sher
Sepoy Khan Azam

Unidentified NLI Battalion
Subedar Shahid Mohd Shah
Sepoy Said Khan
Sepoy Gulam Haider
Sepoy M Noor (Resident of Astore)

19 Frontier Force (FF)
Naik Munir
Sepoy Habibur Rehman
Sepoy Mubarak
Sepoy Ashraf

33 FF
Sepoy Ahmad Khan
Sepoy Salikh Khan
Sepoy Noor Khan
Sepoy Abadat Ali

385 Signal Company
Lance Naik Tufail

ISI
Major Zakaria


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Jagan
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2010 22:36 
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Aditya G wrote:
Anybody have better luck? Will be nice to get it on xls


Aditya - Your wish has been granted :D

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... 26MO#gid=0

You can download it in XLS format through File > Download.

The Excel File has been provided by Manu Pubby of Indian Express - who it so happens was the one who broke the story. PTI in its usual fashion follows up with a generic story and circulates it. So we all owe Manu a round of thanks (and maybe a couple of beers!)

Additionally the following story is the latest in the series on the data mined by him

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/kargi ... ik/713127/

Added Later It appears that the Pak Army had put up a seperate list of casualities listed as "Kargil" instead of the Operatin name. those names are amounting to another 140 or so . Remove non operational losses and the pak casuality list is hovering around 440 admitted ones.
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 27 Nov 2010 22:17 
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Thanks Jagan. This is good data point for us to analyze how true is Pak Army reporting. I will start by comparing the data Indian Army has provided.
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 00:45 
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Poured over the data for sometime ... which I usually prefer doing only in office :((

The data complied by Manu Pubby is incomplete as he has tried to search by operation. More effective search is a simple search by the year 1999which gives us a more comprehensive 538 names. In Manu's list key names are missing such as Brig. Nusrat Sial, who I believe is the seniormost PA officer killed as part of Kargil operations.

Pak Army reported the killed from 30th Jan - 19th Sept 1999 under Koh-e-Paima. Without a check of each record I estimate that at least 450 are due to Kargil operations, with majority of the rest are in Siachen and LoC areas.

Key names that must be included in analysis of Pak casualities are Brig Nusrat Sial - who was the highest ranking officer killed part of the operations. He is listed under operation 'AIR CRASH'.

This is a gold mine of data and thanks to powerful search tool we can extract a lot of information. For example, we can tell that Pak Army aviation lost at least 3-4 helicopters during the operations at their side.
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Jagan
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 02:58 
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Aditya,

You are right . I was discussing this with Manu just after posting the above links - the complete list is available as well. There are 475 names listed between 12th May 1999 and 30th September 1999.

You raise a good point in that the Kargil Ops for them would have started much earlier - perhaps the winter of 98 and they may have more casualities.

The 475 names that I talk of has a few non Kargil area deaths. (1 from Karachi for eg). A few are from Siachen. Sial's Heli Crash victims figure in that list.

Now - this could be for a seperate thread - the casualities for the other wars as per the website come up as

47-48 War - approx 2200 (I think underreported by 20%)
65 War - approx 1700
71 war - 5000
Siachen - 900
Their recent counterisurgency - 2000+
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Bishwa
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 03:27 
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I noticed that all the casualties under OP Koh-e-Paima (286) were either NLI, Arty or EME.

The casualties under OP Kargil were AAD, AK, Baloch, Engrs, Punjab, Arty, Sind, FF, SSG, STC, AC

NLI does not figure under OP Kargil and none of the infantry regiments figure under OP Koh-e-Paima.

The Koh-e-Paima casualties start from Jan 1999. NLI casualties before Jan 1999 seems to be under OP BDA
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Jagan
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 06:20 
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Here is the complete spreadshet

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... y=CLrg5u8F


Bishwa,

That BDA reference seems to be some location or some other routine regular name. it appears even against casualities from the 50s and 60s. So that may not be the yardstick to find out the other operational casualities. (it also appears as BDA (AK) at many places)
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 06:52 
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One thing I am trying to find is whether PA is under-reporting or mis-reporting the data. IA has listed around 20 names which they could find on the bodies. Out of these are 8 are officers or subedars. Looking for these names in the database was a direct match only for Capt Karnal Sher and approximate matches for 3 others as we have do not have full names. However, I could not find even an approximate match for these guys:

Major Javed 5 NLI
Havildar Afraz Gul 6 NLI
Captain Imtiaz 165 Mortar Regiment
Major Zakaria ISI

So I suspect that some truth is still hidden.

Bishwa wrote:
NLI does not figure under OP Kargil and none of the infantry regiments figure under OP Koh-e-Paima.


Bishwa, thats an important observation.

Wrt 'BDA' - it seems like a standard acronym in the PA. Many of the places are directly related to a name of a post like:

Rear HQ Munawar, BDA (AK)
Shah Post-BDA (AK)
Nadala Fwd Post, BDA (AK)
Khalid Post, BDA (AK)
Nadala Rear, BDA (AK)

Guess => it means Border Defence Activity :P
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Jagan
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 08:01 
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my vote goes for under reporting. atleast the numbers they give for 1948/65/71 wars fall anywhere between 10-20 percent of what other official pakistani sources mention. in their defence they did say that that portion of the website is still being updated..

for eg: the 47-48 losses from the Shuhada Corner lists around 2000 names for the Azad Kashmir Regiment losses. The Azad Kashmir Regimental History itself gives a figure of 2600 casualities - thats a 600 shortfall. Ditto for comparisions of the Frontier Force REgiment losses as given in their history with what is given for the wars on the website.

And finally - Paramilitary losses are not counted in the Webite. 100s if not 1000s of the Frontier Corps personnel were killed in the 47-48 War and they dont find a mention in the website. Pretty sure any non - PA personnel lost during Kargil dont make it there either. If the Pakistanis had chainganged any jihadis to be thier mule carriers for the operations who didnt make it back, they dont find any mention anywhere.

BDA - Border Defence Area? Baltistan Divisonal Area? Baltistan Defence Area?
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Bishwa
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 08:14 
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Regarding under reporting casualties.

The battle of Bilafond La happened in Sept 1987. This was when a force led by then Brigadier Musharraff attacked Indian positions defended by the 3/4 Gorkha Rifles and 8 JAK LI. The PA is reputed to have suffered heavy casualties. Lt. Gen V.R. Raghavan in his book "Siachen Conflict Without End" says the PA lost about a 100 troops killed on the glaciers around the pass. The PA units who took part in the operation included the 2NLI, 3 SSG and a Punjab unit as per "Amar Jawan A Book Of Remembrance"

Just look at the number of casualties reported in this website for that period under Siachen and in general. It is not significant. It is said that the result of this battle resulted in the seed for the Kargil operation.

The Indian Army which was defending suffered 12 KIA from 3/4GR , 6 KIA from 8 JAK LI, 3 KIA from 70 Med Reg for the period Sept 22 to Sept 27 1987 (source Amar Jawan) for a total of 21 KIA. The PA is reporting a total of 21 casualties in the same period. This for a force which was attacking uphill and was beaten back is low.

Another interesting fact is about the Bana Post operation which happened on June 26 1987. On this day 5 PA troops were killed and the post captured. One of the those KIA was N/Sb Atta Mohammed. The website does list 5 deaths on June 26 1987 including N/Sb Atta Mohammed but only one is listed under OP Siachen. The rest are either BDA or NA or others. The place of Shahadat Place is marked as either Siachen or Ali Brangsa or Khan Kiran. Ali Brangsa is a base for Bilafond La.


Last edited by Bishwa on 28 Nov 2010 11:25, edited 7 times in total.

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chetak
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 09:34 
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Bishwa wrote:
Regarding under reporting casualties.

The battle of Bilafond La happened in Sept 1987. This was when a force led by then Brigadier Musharraff attacked Indian positions defended by the Gorkha Rifles and JAK. The PA is reputed to have suffered heavy casualties. Lt. Gen V.R. Raghavan in his book "Siachen Conflict Without End" says the PA lost about a 100 troops killed on the glaciers around the pass.

Just look at the number of casualties reported in this website for that period under Siachen and in general. It is not significant. It is said that the result of this battle resulted in the seed for the Kargil operation.


Bishwa ji,

They are not under reporting. They are simply stating a truth as perceived by them.

One towering paki jehadi is equal to ten cowering yindoos onlee. :lol:
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 15:16 
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Jagan wrote:
my vote goes for under reporting. atleast the numbers they give for 1948/65/71 wars fall anywhere between 10-20 percent of what other official pakistani sources mention. in their defence they did say that that portion of the website is still being updated..


Disclaimer could be there simply because it is a live database and each year/month they must be adding to the list (due to ongoing ops in NWFP).

Quote:
....And finally - Paramilitary losses are not counted in the Webite. 100s if not 1000s of the Frontier Corps personnel were killed in the 47-48 War and they dont find a mention in the website. Pretty sure any non - PA personnel lost during Kargil dont make it there either. If the Pakistanis had chainganged any jihadis to be thier mule carriers for the operations who didnt make it back, they dont find any mention anywhere.


True. BTW it seems Musharraf had published in his book that 357 Pakistan Army men were killed in his book.

Can we calculate the exchange ratio of those killed (lets go by official figures):

Pakistan Army:
1. 453 (website)
2. 494 (estimate by IA)

Indian Army: 527

This gives us 1 : 1.16 ratio between the 2 sides, which is a favourable account to India since PA troops had the tactical advantage in the fighting.
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Jagan
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 20:50 
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Quote:
True. BTW it seems Musharraf had published in his book that 357 Pakistan Army men were killed in his book.


He did that in the Indian - Hindi edition - not the English edition that first came out. He got lotsa flak for the English edition which didnt even mention the number. When the indian hindi edition came out, the number was inserted in the text.
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Aditya_V
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 20:56 
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Ithink they have ommitted causualties of Thier side of the LOC, in IAF raids and Indian artillery.
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Jagan
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2010 21:21 
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One observation based on the list - With the exceptin of two Officers - EVERY other Officer in the PA list has a posthumous award to his name.
Quote:
PA 16260 BRIG Nusrat Khan Sial Punjab Crash TJ,S BT
PA 19410 MAJ Muhammad Hanif Punjab Crash
PSS 26192 MAJ Muhammad Sohail Arif Punjab Kargil S BT
PSS 26773 MAJ Muhammad Ali Hyderi Baloch Kargil T BT
PA 28983 MAJ Javvad Iqbal Baloch Kargil T BT
PSS 26413 MAJ Anwer Shamim Abbasi Baloch Crash T BT
PA 23120 MAJ Abdul Wahab Baloch Kargil SJ, T BT
PA 26102 MAJ Muhammad Arshad Hashim AK Kargil SJ
PSS 27375 MAJ Ahmad Khan Tiwana FF Kargil T BT
PA 33334 CAPT Inam Ullah Punjab Kargil T BT
PA 35187 CAPT Muhammad Nasir Hameed Arty Kargil T BT
PA 33439 CAPT Farhat Haseeb Punjab Kargil S J
PA 35005 CAPT Saeed Ahmed Khan Sind Crash T BT
PA 29332 CAPT Muhammad Uzair AD Crash S BT
PA 29553 CAPT Jamal Akbar AK Crash T BT
PA 35306 CAPT Sardar Izhar Haider Baloch Kargil SJ
PA 32762 CAPT Zulfiqar Ali Khan Arty Kargil T BT
PA 31525 CAPT Ahsan Waseem Sadiq Arty Kargil SJ
PA 35261 CAPT Taimur Malik AK Kargil T BT
PA 33654 CAPT Muhammad Ammar Hussain SSG Kargil SJ
PA 30090 CAPT Muhammad Khalil Arty Kargil T BT
PA 33612 CAPT Karnal Sher Sind Kargil NH
PA 35019 CAPT Sajid Hussain Arty Kargil T BT
PA 34407 CAPT Amir Ali AC Kargil T BT
PA 34569 CAPT Muhammad Asghar AK Kargil T BT
PA 34857 CAPT Abdul Malik FF Kargil T BT
PA 35243 CAPT Qazi Jawad Ikram AK Crash T BT
PA 33139 CAPT Javaid Iqbal Arty Kargil T BT
PA 36619 LT Faisal Zia Ghumman FF Kargil S J
PA 35945 LT Naveed Ahmed Mir AK Kargil


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Bishwa
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2010 02:42 
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Some reports suggest porting was done by troops from Bajaur and Chitral Scouts. This reports were linked to info by captured POWs like Naik Inayat Ali, from the 5th Battalion, the Northern Light Infantry (NLI) like http://www.nenanews.com/OT%20July%2022- ... 9/oh25.htm which has "The loads were carried to Munthu Dhalo from Gambat Ganoks across the LoC and then onwards to the posts by personnel of Bajaur and Chitral Scouts. Dressed in salwar-kameez, these paramilitaries preferred carrying the loads at night because of Indian artillery shelling, and they also built up numbers at certain posts facing difficulties."

The casualties suffered by these Scouts (essentially para military orgs) is not reported here.

Keep in mind that in 1999 even the NLI was a para military organization. It was made part of the PA after Kargil. It is possible that may be a reason why he NLI casualties comes under OP Koh-e-Paima and not OP Kargil.

B.t.w as per Amarinder Singhs "A Ridge Too Far", the MI estimates of PA casualties are 772 Killed including 69 Officers and 76 SSG personnel. It also has a list of 44 Officers whose bodies were recovered and IDed or from radio intercepts.
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vic
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2010 10:25 
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Pak Army under-reported its casualities for H&D. Now they have two aims - Mush to embarass and underreporting, hence their official reports will always be less than 500, just less than India's own soldiers figures of KIA.

Indian GoI/Army also want to under-report official figures of Pak casulities as this will show how far they were sleeping at the steering, hence their official report will be around 750, just more than India own KIA.

The real figures of Pako KIA can be anything from 1000 to 5000. After-all remember Mantho Dalo which had 100 dead in one day?
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Bishwa
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 05:06 
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Does anybody have details about Operation Trishul Shakti (28 Jul to 3 Aug 1992) which happened in the Siachen area?

The PA website lists 30 deaths for this period including 10 officers. This includes a Brigadier whose helo was shotdown.

The Amar Jawan book does not list any Indian Army casualties for Border Management (which includes Siachen) during the same period.

Given the significant PA casualties I am sure award citations must have some details.

The only info i was able to locate is http://books.google.com/books?id=Nqmg3x ... 22&f=false
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 05:15 
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Interesting, one of the few claimed missile kills in India-Pakistan wars.
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ramana
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 06:02 
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Bishwa, Click on the 118 on the google page and it takes you to the page describing the operation!

BTW if you scroll up it has a few more ops described.

I dont know how to copy paste the google pages!
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Bishwa
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 08:24 
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Ramana,

I had read that page 118 before posting above. However it is short on detail. I am looking for more information that what this has.
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ramana
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 09:11 
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Can you post what is there here? And the other ops too?
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Jagan
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 10:23 
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Bishwa wrote:
The Amar Jawan book does not list any Indian Army casualties for Border Management (which includes Siachen) during the same period


Aj has listed two names between the dates

03-Aug-92 14399833 GNR RAM SAROOP SIACHEN 60 FD REGT REGT OF ARTILLERY
29-Jul-92 14326928 NB SUB SAHIB SINGH CHANDAIL SIACHEN 326 LT AS REGT (COMPOSITE) REGT OF ARTILLERY


I remember having a newspaper report on the battle including the claim of the heli being downed. I hope I have scanned it somewhere (else not going to find it)

BTW I am going to split the thread - the Pak Casuality posts can be a seperate topic of their own....
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rohitvats
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 10:34 
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^^^Jagan, in the second entry for Siachen Ops, I think the unit needs to read as LT AD Regt(Composite).

For the uninitiated, that is Light Air Defense Regiment (Composite)...these are equipped with ZSU-23 and since it is a composite, AFAIK, there would be component of MANPADs.
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Bishwa
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 18:20 
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Yeah, it is the 326 Light Air Defence Regiment (Composite). It is listed as such in the AJ book.

These are some events listed in the google book link i pointed to in the previous post

1. An officer and 10 jawans were moved from Bahadur post to establish themselves at the ridge
2. Enemy made an attempt to occupy a saddle at 2330 the following day but could not make progress
3. July 30, 1992 saw heavy firing
4. At 1635 hrs on July 31, 3 Lama helicopters dropped an enemy observation party at Manjit OP to direct firre at Bahadur Post
5. At 1155 hrs on Aug 1, 2 enemy Lama helicopters were seen approaching Manjit OP. The first was shotdown by an Igla.
6. On Aug 2 there was heavy exchange of fire
7. Estimate of enemy casualties were 60 KIA, 70 injured. The dead included a Brigadier and 10 officers
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Jagan
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 19:20 
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Another thing to note - the Brigadier and his two pilots (Both Majors) have the SJ against their names . Perhaps the Gazette of Pakistan will have the citations?

Code:
PA 10117   BRIG   Masood Navid Anwari   FF   Air Crash   SJ   HQ FCNA   1992-08-01   Siachin   Due to hel crash
PA 17207   MAJ   Khalid Sohail Sultan   ASC   AIR CRASH   SJ      1992-08-01   NOT KNOWN   DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH
PA 17325   MAJ   Babar Ramzan   Arty   AIR CRASH   SJ      1992-08-01   NOT KNOWN   DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH


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shiv
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 19:37 
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:((

Pakistan producing a list of dead is a dangerous development. If Pakistanis start telling the truth today - to themselves and to others - they can become a truly deadly enemy tomorrow. They have been jokers only because they have lived in cloud cuckooland. So far. I'm hoping they will keep lying to themseleves forever.
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Jagan
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 19:49 
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shiv, its still only 80% truth.. there is quite a bit of under reporting in all wars.

But I hear ya.. i get what you are saying :D
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rohitvats
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 20:36 
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From the link about heptr crash above - seems the PA allows even officers from ASC to volunteer for AAC.

That aside,wasn't there a case of PA heptr brought down by ZSU-23? Or am I confusing things?Thanx.
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Lalmohan
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 20:41 
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^^^ or was he a passenger?
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Jagan
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2010 22:43 
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Posts: 2830
Location: Earth @ Google.com
A quick check of an article by a PA Army Aviation Officer Brig Sher Khan (link) fails to bring up three names mentioned in it.

(Rank Unknown - probably Maj or above) Tauhid Ul Haq K in 70s in Heli Crash
Major Jilani k in Heli crash 68 or 70
Capt Bilal k Mushak inverted flying (Pre 2000)

None of the three officers can be found in the list. Though some other names that he mentions in the article are found in the list.
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prithvi
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 00:02 
discussion on this thread prompted me to run a google search on Bilafond La.. and I came across nice little gem of an article by an American journalist visiting both sides of Siachen Glacier post Kargil....

the link below..
http://www.wesjones.com/coldest.htm


some interesting snippets...
In settings like this, suffering is often transformed into legend. The Pakistanis tell of a post beyond Sia La, at nearly 22,000 feet, that is said to have three separate cracks in the ice known as Three-Man Crevasse, Five-Man Crevasse, and Eight-Man Crevasse - each named for the number of men who died falling in. Soldiers talk of men losing their minds and leaping from the posts to their deaths. Some say their tormented cries can be heard in the wind over the peaks. And then there's the story about the platoon killed in an early battle at Bilafond La, whose bodies froze into such grotesque positions that their corpses had to be hacked into pieces before they could be placed in helicopter panniers and brought down for return to their families.


The Pakistani gear that I saw seemed to be generally low-quality stuff; most of it carried the brand name Technoworld, which no one I spoke to in the outdoor industry had ever heard of. In contrast, Indian soldiers get state-of-the-art gear from a wide range of highly specialized Western firms like Koflach, Asolo, and Black Diamond.

In April 1989, the Indian army launched a mission known as Operation Ibex; its aim was to capture this peak and force the Pakistanis to vacate the entire upper portion of the Chumik Glacier. Three teams of Pakistani soldiers attempted to reach the summit to thwart the Indian operation and failed; one team was wiped out by an avalanche, the others halted by overhanging seracs. A last-ditch decision was made to airlift troops to a point just below the top of the 22,185foot mountain using French Lama helicopters designed to fly no higher than 21,000 feet.

The air was so thin, the pilots feared they would crash if they attempted to hover. So after stripping as much excess weight as they could, they used a maneuver called a "running drop," which required an individual soldier dangling from the bottom to be dropped onto the peak as they passed over. The first to make it was a 29-year-old lieutenant named Naveed-ur-Rehman. He was soon joined by a sergeant named Mohammed Yakub. But then a storm blew in and both men were forced to huddle on the mountain without supplies for two nights.

"The wind was so strong," Naveed, who is now a major, later told me, "that we had to dig in our heels to avoid being carried away." Over the next 40 days, six choppers relayed 86 soldiers and 38 tons of supplies onto the peak. Two Pakistani soldiers died and 30 were wounded during the defense of Naveed Top. That May - after the Indian advance was halted by a massive avalanche that killed a large number of their troops - both sides agreed to demilitarize the summit.

Or so say the Pakistanis. To this day, the Indian army denies that any of this ever happened.[b]
[b]BEFORE LEAVING PAKISTAN I heard quite a few remarks about Narinder "Bull" Kumar, a legendary Indian military man and mountaineer, and none of them were complimentary. "Colonel Kumar is the man who started all this," Major Tahir had fumed. "I have no wish to meet him - that ********

for the knowledgeable members of this community these all might be already known... apologies in advance..
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VikB
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 02:06 
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Joined: 29 Jun 2009 10:02
Posts: 314
Location: Mumbai/Delhi
^^^ Awesome find. Thank you very much
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 03:20 
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Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1473
One of the interesting entries:

Code:
PA 1810   GEN   Muhammad Zia Ul Haq   AC   Air Crash   TJ   GHQ   17/08/1988   BAHAWALPUR   C-130 CRASH   Rawalpindi


:twisted:
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Aditya G
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 03:50 
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BRFite

Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Posts: 1473
Downloaded the whole 15,183 records. Compiling some trivia:

Total officer KIA. The Pilot Officer is Rashid Minhas:

Code:
Row Labels   Count of Rank
2/LT   37
LT   65
HON CAPT   2
CAPT   261
MAJ   213
LT COL   41
COL   2
BRIG   20
LT GEN   2
MAJ GEN   7
GEN   3
Pilot Officer   1
Grand Total   654


Top-30 Units/formations:

Code:
FCNA   1516
Jatha   1116
12 DIV   434 [b](PA's first and largest division)[/b]
11 DIV   409
33 DIV   318
14 DIV   313
17 DIV   295
7 DIV   287
9 DIV   252
8 DIV   245
37 DIV   193
15 DIV   176
16 DIV   168
18 DIV   163
19 DIV   138
23 DIV   92
SFS HYD   84
SSG   82
HQ 10 Corps   80
HQ FWO   78
HQ FCNA   77
HQ SSG   63
GHQ   62
HQ ENGRS 30 CORPS   57
HQ ENGRS NLC   57
11 CORPS   56
25 Mech Div   53
111 IIBG   50
35 DIV   50
40 DIV   48
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Ambar
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010 04:52 
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Joined: 12 Jun 2010 09:56
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Location: Dharma, Bijaksana, Kshatria
Did the Poak's use any mercenaries at all in Kargil ? If they did, then that would probably explain 'in thousands' number that both BB and Nawaz Sharif have quoted.
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