China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
^^^
Agni-V post-effect
One country w/ WMD neutralized, but the other less stable and more suicidal (hence more concerning) remains.
Agni-V post-effect
One country w/ WMD neutralized, but the other less stable and more suicidal (hence more concerning) remains.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
^ that or they are hinting at the fact that they can still win a conventional war against India, but I might be reading too much into it..
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
The Chicago Tribune had an article that went a little further. China wanted Russia and the US to "drastically" reduce their nuclear inventories. NFU + reduced inventories is only the penultimate step.
I think India should test a TN - now. That should lead to calls for 0-nukes. Verified.
srai,
My feeling is that TSP has been removed from these complex equation. Nations are working to get rid of NK. China has, then, precious little to work with. I am looking forward to the day when China gives in into this stupidity called South China Sea, etc. Like Pakistan has leased (or is about to) parts of disputed areas, India SHOULD lease from 'Nam and Philippines and ..... parts of the South China Sea.
I think India should test a TN - now. That should lead to calls for 0-nukes. Verified.
srai,
My feeling is that TSP has been removed from these complex equation. Nations are working to get rid of NK. China has, then, precious little to work with. I am looking forward to the day when China gives in into this stupidity called South China Sea, etc. Like Pakistan has leased (or is about to) parts of disputed areas, India SHOULD lease from 'Nam and Philippines and ..... parts of the South China Sea.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Without Israeli tank ammunition how will the IA fight more than a few days? How is such impotence/incompetence possible? Importing rifles and tank ammunition, 65 years after independence? This country needs to be conquered again.
PS Sorry for the above rant. I just read an interview with VK Saraswat where he talks about private companies moving from component manufacturers to sub-systems and finally system integrators and I feel a little better. I still think the whole DPSU set up has gone from what was a no choice situation into what is now an obsolete/mediocre manufacturing set up to force imports and allow massive bribes to be obtained. That national security suffers as a result is acceptable collateral damage to the scumbags who rule India.
PS Sorry for the above rant. I just read an interview with VK Saraswat where he talks about private companies moving from component manufacturers to sub-systems and finally system integrators and I feel a little better. I still think the whole DPSU set up has gone from what was a no choice situation into what is now an obsolete/mediocre manufacturing set up to force imports and allow massive bribes to be obtained. That national security suffers as a result is acceptable collateral damage to the scumbags who rule India.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
India Takes on China
ndia now has the capability to target and destroy space satellites in orbit. "Today, we have developed all the building blocks for an anti-satellite (ASAT) capability," scientific adviser to the defence minister and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) chief Vijay Saraswat told India Today. This capability has given India a deterrent against China. In January 2007, a Chinese asat missile destroyed an unused weather satellite.
The test opened a new flank of vulnerability in India's $12 billion (Rs 60,000 crore) space infrastructure. India has 10 satellites including the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) new Radar Imaging Satellite (RISAT) 1. Launched on April 26, the spy satellite can identify one-metre wide objects from space. China's alarming test spurred India's quest for a similar satellite-killing system.
The successful April 19 trial of 5,500 km-Agni V Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile that Saraswat calls a "game changer", is another step towards the capability to target objects in space. The missile scaled a height of 600 km before re-entering the atmosphere. "DRDO will field a full-fledged ASAT weapon based on Agni and ad-2 ballistic missile interceptor by 2014," says a top government source who does not want to be named. This weapon is unlikely to be publicly tested.
This was confirmed by Saraswat who says that India will not test this capability through the destruction of a satellite. Such a test risked showering lethal debris in space that could damage existing satellites. Instead, India's ASAT capability would be fine-tuned through simulated electronic tests.
Most military satellites orbit up to 2,000 km above the earth's surface in low earth orbit (LEO). Seeking to guide India's responses to this emerging threat, Space Security Coordination Group (SSCG) was set up in 2010. Chaired by the National Security Adviser Shiv Shankar Menon, SSCG involved representatives of DRDO, Indian Air Force (IAF) and National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO). Besides laying down the Government's space policy, this body will also coordinate response on an international code of conduct in space.
The US responded to the Chinese test by downing an unused satellite in 2008. In June 2010, the US indicated that they would consider a new treaty for restrictions on space-based weapons. A new treaty would foreclose India's options for testing asat weapons. Indian analysts say it could lead to a new restrictive regime on space weapons, like the present treaties on testing and possession of nuclear weapons and long range ballistic missiles. The SSCG has directed DRDO to accelerate its ASAT capability.
Another key ASAT milestone capability will be reached with the first test of a PDV interceptor later this year. This slender two-stage missile can destroy incoming ballistic missiles at an altitude of 150 km. The Ballistic Missile Defence (BMsD) project that aims to protect the country from hostile ballistic missiles has, in fact, developed the three critical elements required to destroy satellites. A long range radar able to detect them and a missile that can inject a "kill vehicle" or warhead into an orbit that actually homes in to destroy it. All these elements have been developed under the BMD programme.
The DRDO's Long Range Tracking Radar can scan targets over 600 km away. The 'kill vehicle' has been developed as part of the ballistic missile system. It has both electronic and radio-frequency guidance that can home in on ballistic missiles and satellites. "Unlike a ballistic missile, a satellite has a predictive path. A satellite has a diameter of 1 meter while our BMD system can track and destroy targets less than 0.1 metres," says Saraswat.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
I think china has had a NFU policy wrt non-nuclear states from day1, their policy against nuclear states has been a little ambiguous.
in any case, the only country they need to worry about is the US, which does not have any NFU policy against anyone, not even mexico or canada.
in any case, the only country they need to worry about is the US, which does not have any NFU policy against anyone, not even mexico or canada.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
China violated Indian airspace in March: Govt
China breached Indian airspace twice in March, Union defence minister AK Antony said on Wednesday, adding the intrusions were reported to Beijing to "facilitate maintenance of peace" between the two Asian giants. Chinese helicopters flew into Indian airspace on March 16 and 19, AK Antony told Parliament, specifying that on the first incident two aircraft illegally crossed the militarised border into India.
Both airspace violations occurred over India's mountainous Himachal Pradesh state, which shares part of its border with Tibet, the defence minister told Parliament's Upper House in a statement.
"Incidents of transgressions, intrusions are taken up with the Chinese side through established mechanisms such as hot lines, flag meetings, border personnel meetings and normal diplomatic channels," Antony said.
"These mechanisms facilitate maintenance of peace," the defence minister's statement said.
The disputed border between India and China has been the subject of 14 rounds of fruitless talks since 1962, when the two nations fought a brief but brutal war over the issue.
China claims all of the northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh as well as other areas in the northwestern province of Kashmir.
Chinese military infrastructure build-up along the frontier has become a major source of concern for India, which increasingly sees Beijing as a longer-term threat to its security than traditional rival Pakistan.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
^^ old news
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
With all that is going on, I am beginning to wonder what kind of technologies China is willing to part with to arm Pakistan and NK.
Seems to me that nations will collaborate to checkmate China. To counter that either she has to take on the challenge herself or outsource the risk - which is what she has been doing. That loop is being closed and China will have to go it alone here on out.
I really think India NEEDS to do two things:
1) Float the idea of leasing parcels of sea that 'Nam and/or Philippines claim, for 50 years, and
2) Test a phataka.
Seems to me that nations will collaborate to checkmate China. To counter that either she has to take on the challenge herself or outsource the risk - which is what she has been doing. That loop is being closed and China will have to go it alone here on out.
I really think India NEEDS to do two things:
1) Float the idea of leasing parcels of sea that 'Nam and/or Philippines claim, for 50 years, and
2) Test a phataka.
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Even after testing a phataka in 1998, we still need to test another phataka ?
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
This is First for India; good moves.. otherwise we have tendency not to interfere in others issues...
India steps into Philippines-China spat over South China Sea
India steps into Philippines-China spat over South China Sea
n an unusual statement that signals India's growing interests in South China Sea, the MEA on Thursday weighed in on the growing dispute between China and the Philippines. Admitting Indian concern about the events, the MEA spokesperson said, "Maintenance of peace and security in the region is of vital interest to the international community. India urges both countries to exercise restraint and resolve the issue diplomatically according to principles of international law."
India not only has a growing presence in oil and gas exploration off Vietnam in the South China Sea, there has been an Indian presence in helping to keep the sea lanes safe and open for some time now. Besides, India is also signaling to the Southeast Asian nations that it remains engaged about the issues that concern them.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
These are fakes as they dont have tree branches and twigs
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
didn't see this image here before, a sneak peek at the chinese underground tunnel.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
these tunnels being very long would need special exhausts, usually mining tunnels have vertical shafts with a huge exhaust fan at the mouth, this is required for humans (miners) and machines working inside the tunnel to have sufficient fresh oxygen, if this exhaust fan fails, miners are on a clock (few hours) to evacuate
since the tunnel entrances are sealed, there should be a way for fresh oxygen circulation in the tunnel system, openings for incoming air as well as its exhaust much like HVAC in a large building
hydro carbons from the exhausts can be detected, and monitoring of air disturbances/artificial flows around mountain ranges with suspected tunnels is a good intelligence source, I believe US has sensitive hydrocarbon sensors
oh well, green vehicles can reduce this signature significantly
since the tunnel entrances are sealed, there should be a way for fresh oxygen circulation in the tunnel system, openings for incoming air as well as its exhaust much like HVAC in a large building
hydro carbons from the exhausts can be detected, and monitoring of air disturbances/artificial flows around mountain ranges with suspected tunnels is a good intelligence source, I believe US has sensitive hydrocarbon sensors
oh well, green vehicles can reduce this signature significantly
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
to put the lack of historical chinese naval might in context, around 1000 years before their famous eunuch admiral zheng he in the 15th century, the people of malaysia had sailed 4000km west, settled in madagascar island , today their language is malay based and 50% of gene pool is from malaysia. the kingdoms of calicut, Cholas, srivijaya, melaka, khmer, champa also had far more sea faring activity than the yellow sea hans. a thick network of shipping linked ASEAN to India.
chinese also have a habit of claiming every place zheng he visited paid tribute and accepted submission to the big panda, but in reality most places were just interested in trade and had nothing to fear from the big panda.
chinese also have a habit of claiming every place zheng he visited paid tribute and accepted submission to the big panda, but in reality most places were just interested in trade and had nothing to fear from the big panda.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... 18-372082/
Chengdu J-20 could enter service by 2018
Washington DC 8 hours ago Source:
The stealthy Chengdu J-20 fighter could enter operational service by early 2018 and join a rapidly improving Chinese military armed with long-range strike weapons, new unmanned air vehicles and command and control aircraft fleets, the US Department of Defense says in an annual assessment.
The J-20 is "still in a prototype phase," says David Helvey, the acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for East Asia for the US Department of Defense.
"So we'd like to be able to continue to monitor it--to continue monitor developments on that to understand exactly what China may intend to use it for, and I wouldn't want to speculate at this point for what those specific missions would be," he adds.
But the report itself says that the J-20 reflects "China's ambition to produce a fighter aircraft that incorporates stealth attributes, advanced avionics, and supercruise-capable engines
The first J-20 prototype started flight tests in January 2011 and a second example started flying earlier this month. But the US government is adamant that the aircraft will not enter frontline squadron service until much later this decade.
"We expect the J-20 to achieve an effective operational capability no sooner than 2018," Helvey says. "That reflects our judgment and interpretation of how far they are along in doing the research and development and flight testing of the prototypes," he adds.
Operational capability as the DoD defines it means that there should be enough aircraft, weapons and trained air crew to conduct real-world missions, Helvey says.
The DoD also believes that the Chinese have an interest in developing new unmanned aircraft.
"We know that China is interested in developing unmanned air systems, and they have in the past acquired a number of different types of UAVs," Helvey says. "This report doesn't make a net assessment between China's capabilities for unmanned air systems and US capabilities, but that is an area that China is interested in developing."
China has a number of unmanned aerial vehicles including the Israeli-made Israel Aerospace Industries Harpy and a number of domestic types.
Meanwhile, the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) is not neglecting its long-range strike capabilities. The country is upgrading its Tupolev Tu-16 Badger-derived Xian B-6 bomber fleet with a new, longer-range variation, which will be armed with new long-range cruise missiles, the report says.
The Chinese are also developing several types of airborne early warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft. These include the Shaanxi Y-8 Moth, based on the Antonov An-12, and the KJ-2000, based on the Ilyushin IL-76 airlifter, the report says.
Meanwhile, China's navy is moving on getting its first aircraft carrier into service. The refurbished Soviet-built ship started sea trials last August, but it not yet operational.
"This aircraft [carrier] could become operationally available to China's navy by the end of this year," Helvey says. "But we expect it'll take several additional years for an air group to achieve a minimal operational capability aboard the aircraft carrier."
The report also indicates that China is probably designing and possibly building in own indigenous carriers.
While China's public statements on its defence budget about $106 billion for 2012, the DoD estimates that the Chinese will actually spend more than $180 billion.
Helvey says the DoD believe that many aspects of China's military modernization actually comes from different spending accounts rather than the main defence budget. Foreign acquisitions such as Russian-built fighters are counted the same way.
"For example, we think that some of their nuclear forces modernisation occurs off budget," he says. "So when you add all of that together, that helps us to develop, I think, a more accurate estimate of what the totality of the military expenditure is."
Chengdu J-20 could enter service by 2018
Washington DC 8 hours ago Source:
The stealthy Chengdu J-20 fighter could enter operational service by early 2018 and join a rapidly improving Chinese military armed with long-range strike weapons, new unmanned air vehicles and command and control aircraft fleets, the US Department of Defense says in an annual assessment.
The J-20 is "still in a prototype phase," says David Helvey, the acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for East Asia for the US Department of Defense.
"So we'd like to be able to continue to monitor it--to continue monitor developments on that to understand exactly what China may intend to use it for, and I wouldn't want to speculate at this point for what those specific missions would be," he adds.
But the report itself says that the J-20 reflects "China's ambition to produce a fighter aircraft that incorporates stealth attributes, advanced avionics, and supercruise-capable engines
The first J-20 prototype started flight tests in January 2011 and a second example started flying earlier this month. But the US government is adamant that the aircraft will not enter frontline squadron service until much later this decade.
"We expect the J-20 to achieve an effective operational capability no sooner than 2018," Helvey says. "That reflects our judgment and interpretation of how far they are along in doing the research and development and flight testing of the prototypes," he adds.
Operational capability as the DoD defines it means that there should be enough aircraft, weapons and trained air crew to conduct real-world missions, Helvey says.
The DoD also believes that the Chinese have an interest in developing new unmanned aircraft.
"We know that China is interested in developing unmanned air systems, and they have in the past acquired a number of different types of UAVs," Helvey says. "This report doesn't make a net assessment between China's capabilities for unmanned air systems and US capabilities, but that is an area that China is interested in developing."
China has a number of unmanned aerial vehicles including the Israeli-made Israel Aerospace Industries Harpy and a number of domestic types.
Meanwhile, the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) is not neglecting its long-range strike capabilities. The country is upgrading its Tupolev Tu-16 Badger-derived Xian B-6 bomber fleet with a new, longer-range variation, which will be armed with new long-range cruise missiles, the report says.
The Chinese are also developing several types of airborne early warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft. These include the Shaanxi Y-8 Moth, based on the Antonov An-12, and the KJ-2000, based on the Ilyushin IL-76 airlifter, the report says.
Meanwhile, China's navy is moving on getting its first aircraft carrier into service. The refurbished Soviet-built ship started sea trials last August, but it not yet operational.
"This aircraft [carrier] could become operationally available to China's navy by the end of this year," Helvey says. "But we expect it'll take several additional years for an air group to achieve a minimal operational capability aboard the aircraft carrier."
The report also indicates that China is probably designing and possibly building in own indigenous carriers.
While China's public statements on its defence budget about $106 billion for 2012, the DoD estimates that the Chinese will actually spend more than $180 billion.
Helvey says the DoD believe that many aspects of China's military modernization actually comes from different spending accounts rather than the main defence budget. Foreign acquisitions such as Russian-built fighters are counted the same way.
"For example, we think that some of their nuclear forces modernisation occurs off budget," he says. "So when you add all of that together, that helps us to develop, I think, a more accurate estimate of what the totality of the military expenditure is."
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
No use watching the first 8 minutes. The flight starts around 8 min 30 sec.wrdos wrote:Maiden flight of the second plane of J20-2002, on May 16.
http://www.56.com/u89/v_NjgzNDE1ODI.html
Takeoff with afterburner, unlike the last video I saw. Blue afterburner flame of the type I have seen only one one engine type.
Nosewheel lifts off 11 seconds after brakes off. Airborne in about 4 seconds after that.
Compare with LCA LSP 7. 14 seconds to nosewheel up and 16 seconds to lift off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPt06YJy-ug
Why does the tail chute housing remain permanently open in all flights?
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Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Need a base in FijiIndia to withdraw from oil exploration in SCS ?
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Second J-20 Flies at Chengdu
Observers at the 611 Institute airfield at Chengdu were treated to the first glimpses of the long-predicted second prototype (2002) of the Chengdu J-20 stealthy fighter early this month. In the days that followed the aircraft undertook a number of high-speed taxi trials, culminating in a first flight on May 16.
Days before, the first prototype (2001) is reported to have deployed to the Chinese flight-test establishment at Yanliang near the city of Xian, signaling the beginning of a new phase of flight trials. Once factory trials have been completed, the second aircraft is expected to join the first-born at Yanliang.
The second aircraft exhibits no major differences from prototype 2001, which first flew on January 11 last year, apart from the relocation of the nose pitot probe to the extreme tip of the radome, rather than being mounted above it. At this stage of the program, however, it is unlikely either aircraft has radar installed.
The second prototype also appears to have some undercarriage modifications: all photos of 2001 show it with the doors left open when the main landing gear is deployed, whereas 2002 can close its doors.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Chinese AL31F Orders Keep Russian Engine Maker Busy
Russian engine manufacturer Salut revealed that its backlog for the AL31F series now exceeds 400, thanks largely to orders from China. At the Engines 2000 exhibition in Moscow last month, Salut confirmed that more negotiations with China took place recently, but it declined to provide details. Salut also revealed progress on increased-thrust versions of the AL31F.
This engine powers several combat aircraft in Chinese service, including Russian-built twin-engine Su-27s, Su-30MKKs and Su-30MK2s, and their Chinese clones, namely the land-based J-11 and ship-launched J-15. It also powers the Chinese-designed and built J-10 fighter. Salut general director Vladislav Masalov told AIN last September that negotiations were under way for a second batch of nearly 140 AL31FN versions for the J-10.
China buys most of its AL31F-series engines from Salut, but also takes smaller quantities from the Ufa-based UMPO factory of the United Engine Corporation (ODK). Some of the engines going to China are replacing older ones with expiring lifetimes. Salut has established a partnership with Limin in China for local repair and maintenance. China may now have ordered more than 250 AL31FNs for the J-10, which suggests that confidence in the indigenous WS10A turbofan to power the single-engine fighter might not be as high as previously indicated.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
SO J-11 production is going full steam ahead? Does J-20 also use Al-31?
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
If you can show me photos of any other engine that produces that characteristic blue afterburner flame I would say that the J-20 uses something different. There is something unique about that mix of gases coming out the back of an Al 31 that creates that flame. I have never seen that with any other engine.Aditya_V wrote:SO J-11 production is going full steam ahead? Does J-20 also use Al-31?
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Hi Shiv, the Tu-22M's NK-25 engines also produce a blue flame. I believe it has got something to do with more efficient combustion with very little excess fuel being present in the flame-front, and a higher flame temperature.shiv wrote:If you can show me photos of any other engine that produces that characteristic blue afterburner flame
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Chengdu J-20 could enter service by 2018
US DoD : ANNUAL REPORT TO CONGRESS - Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2012
The stealthy Chengdu J-20 fighter could enter operational service by early 2018 and join a rapidly improving Chinese military armed with long-range strike weapons, new unmanned air vehicles and command and control aircraft fleets, the US Department of Defense says in an annual assessment.
The J-20 is "still in a prototype phase," says David Helvey, the acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for East Asia for the US Department of Defense.
The DoD also believes that the Chinese have an interest in developing new unmanned aircraft.
"We know that China is interested in developing unmanned air systems, and they have in the past acquired a number of different types of UAVs," Helvey says. "This report doesn't make a net assessment between China's capabilities for unmanned air systems and US capabilities, but that is an area that China is interested in developing."
The Chinese are also developing several types of airborne early warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft. These include the Shaanxi Y-8 Moth, based on the Antonov An-12, and the KJ-2000, based on the Ilyushin IL-76 airlifter, the report says.
Meanwhile, China's navy is moving on getting its first aircraft carrier into service. The refurbished Soviet-built ship started sea trials last August, but it not yet operational.
"This aircraft [carrier] could become operationally available to China's navy by the end of this year," Helvey says. "But we expect it'll take several additional years for an air group to achieve a minimal operational capability aboard the aircraft carrier."
US DoD : ANNUAL REPORT TO CONGRESS - Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s Republic of China 2012
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Interesting. I have not seen that blue flame outside of Russian/Soviet aircraft. All Chinese aircraft that are known to use the Al-31, that is the J-10 and J-11 have that same blue flame.Mihir wrote:Hi Shiv, the Tu-22M's NK-25 engines also produce a blue flame. I believe it has got something to do with more efficient combustion with very little excess fuel being present in the flame-front, and a higher flame temperature.shiv wrote:If you can show me photos of any other engine that produces that characteristic blue afterburner flame
The J-20 is likely to be using exactly that. In a sense the Chinese have been sensible. they have fixated on one proven engine, they are giving the Russians huge orders for the Al 31 while they try to clone it. And clone it they will, given time.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Logistically it makes good sense to standardise on single engine type for J-10 and J-20 , would go a long way for them and thats excellent thinking.
As far Al-31 although J-20 prototype are most certainly using AL-31 series engine but considering J-20 is a big aircraft it will be underpowered for production variant , I think eventually the Chinese will jump over to AL-31FM2 with 14.5 T of thrust thats 2T more thrust per engine or 4 T more thrust over AL-31F/J-20 series.
Another option is to jointly fund with Salut the more advanced AL-31FM3 vairant with 15.5 T of thrust , both these types are just plug and play replacement of AL-31F series needing no intake changes or with minor modification if at all but OEM insists no changes needed.
I think even if WS-10 gets developed it will continue to flounder on thrust and reliability front and would need longer gestation period spanning over decade to qualify as proven engine.
As far Al-31 although J-20 prototype are most certainly using AL-31 series engine but considering J-20 is a big aircraft it will be underpowered for production variant , I think eventually the Chinese will jump over to AL-31FM2 with 14.5 T of thrust thats 2T more thrust per engine or 4 T more thrust over AL-31F/J-20 series.
Another option is to jointly fund with Salut the more advanced AL-31FM3 vairant with 15.5 T of thrust , both these types are just plug and play replacement of AL-31F series needing no intake changes or with minor modification if at all but OEM insists no changes needed.
I think even if WS-10 gets developed it will continue to flounder on thrust and reliability front and would need longer gestation period spanning over decade to qualify as proven engine.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Another thing i have noticed is Chinese are not tinkering with Thrust Vectoring , i may be wrong but i think TVC ( 2D or 3D ) would need major changes in FCS and need elaborate flight testing program with Aerodynamics and Engine all working in tandem something the chinese might not have experience with and they are probably better of using engine and stealth and save TVC for some other day.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Well, the B-1B's F-101 turbofan also produces a blue flame, while the other engines like the F-414, for example, do not. I've discussed the blue vs yellow flame thing in a little more detail in the FAQ thread.shiv wrote:Interesting. I have not seen that blue flame outside of Russian/Soviet aircraft. All Chinese aircraft that are known to use the Al-31, that is the J-10 and J-11 have that same blue flame.
The J-20 is likely to be using exactly that. In a sense the Chinese have been sensible. they have fixated on one proven engine, they are giving the Russians huge orders for the Al 31 while they try to clone it. And clone it they will, given time.
I agree with your point though. The Chinese appear to have made the sensible choice and stuck to using the proven Al-31 engine for at least the first few prototypes of this aircraft.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
The blue flame of "perfect fuel-air mixtures" versus orange/yellow flame of sooty excess fuel mixtures is a well documented fact in science magazines, but to me it begs the question, why are most manufacturers of engines in the world making "inefficient" afterburner designs when afterburning itself is one of the biggest fuel guzzling gizmos invented? Afterburners have different settings in which more or less fuel can be injected into the exhaust pipe and surely the flame colour should vary as the fuel air mix varies as would occur with an ordinary burner. If the lowest afterburner setting itself has excess fuel and all remaining oxygen is combusted, there would be no point in injecting even more fuel for 2 or 3 "higher" afterburner settings. Clearly the explanation is likely to involve something more than just the fuel-air ratio.Mihir wrote:Well, the B-1B's F-101 turbofan also produces a blue flame, while the other engines like the F-414, for example, do not. I've discussed the blue vs yellow flame thing in a little more detail in the FAQ thread.shiv wrote:Interesting. I have not seen that blue flame outside of Russian/Soviet aircraft. All Chinese aircraft that are known to use the Al-31, that is the J-10 and J-11 have that same blue flame.
The J-20 is likely to be using exactly that. In a sense the Chinese have been sensible. they have fixated on one proven engine, they are giving the Russians huge orders for the Al 31 while they try to clone it. And clone it they will, given time.
I agree with your point though. The Chinese appear to have made the sensible choice and stuck to using the proven Al-31 engine for at least the first few prototypes of this aircraft.
The MiG series, the Jaguar, Tornado, F-15, Gripen and even F-22 IIRC throw out an orange flame and not a blue one. Considering that 99.9% of ordinary domestic gas burners produce a perfectly blue flame, it would seem odd that afterburner designers don't seem to be concerned. Perhaps it has nothing to do with efficiency and is just a result of a unique design?
But let me leave that aside - the real point for this thread is that the Al-31 has a unique design feature that produces that blue flame. The Chinese are using the Al-31 in some numbers and that same blue flame is seen in all the aircraft known to use the Al-31. Now if I see a photo of the J-20 producing that blue flame, I would bet that it is using the Al 31 and not some unique new Chinese engine simply because 90% of engine designs do not produce a blue flame on afterburning for whatever reason. This is guesswork. Not science.
Last edited by shiv on 21 May 2012 06:29, edited 1 time in total.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Some engine news from Oct 2011
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/article ... 8-2011.asp
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/article ... 8-2011.asp
Russia is not conceding defeat in its effort to halt Chinese theft of Russian military technology. This can be seen in China having more difficulty than it will admit in its battle to free itself from dependence on Russia for high-performance jet engines for its top-line jet fighters. This surfaced recently when China protested restrictions Russia was insisting on for the use of AL-31FN engines China ordered two months ago. Russia wants guarantees that the AL-31FNs will only be used to power Chinese warplanes, and that none of them will be disassembled to assist Chinese engineers in perfecting the illegal Chinese clone of the AL-31FN, the WS-10A. China is resisting these restrictions, which simply makes the Russians more insistent. China has been stealing Russian military tech for years, especially since the end of the Cold War. Back then, Russia could no longer to buy new military gear, and it was only orders from China and India that were keeping many Russian defense firms in business. This was, and still is, particularly true with Russian manufacturers of military jet engines. Thus Russia wants, and still needs, the sales, but does not want China to become a competitor by using stolen Russian technology.
And then there's the problem with China not wanting to admit that its own engine development efforts have consistently come up short. For example, last year, China revealed that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. Then, two months ago, China ordered another 123 AL-31FNs, to be delivered over the next two years.
The Chinese claim the WS-10A is superior to the AL-31F, even though the WS-10A copied a lot of the Russian technology.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
China revealed that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. Then, two months ago, China ordered another 123 AL-31FNs, to be delivered over the next two years.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
On the engine topic, for a scramjet program, laser ignition was tested with success, if used in regular jet/IC engines would it help in better burning of fuel mixture? could be useful in starting up engines soaked in colder climates or relighting engines at higher altitudes
LASTEC and Kaveri?
LASTEC and Kaveri?
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
I believe J-10A/Su-27/Su-30MKK continue using AL-31, but J-10B/J-11 will be using WS-10, as their prototypes are flying with WS-10.Singha wrote:China revealed that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. Then, two months ago, China ordered another 123 AL-31FNs, to be delivered over the next two years.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Try putting the engine from the Suzuki Maruti inside a Tata Nano. WS10 has a CFM core (1st paragraph, Wikipedia).Marten wrote:Defies logic. If the WS10 is good enough to fly prototypes, why is not good enough to fly on the other types?ashi wrote: I believe J-10A/Su-27/Su-30MKK continue using AL-31, but J-10B/J-11 will be using WS-10, as their prototypes are flying with WS-10.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
[OT]Of course. The air-to-fuel ratio is one of the main things the flame colour depends on, but not the only factor. The level of mixing of the fuel spray with the air is also important here. If the mixture isn't fully mixed, you will get not get complete combustion even if there is enough excess air to theoretically do so. So an afterburner should be able to produce increased thrust by injecting more fuel into the exhaust gas stream without ever realising complete combustion.[/OT]shiv wrote:Afterburners have different settings in which more or less fuel can be injected into the exhaust pipe and surely the flame colour should vary as the fuel air mix varies as would occur with an ordinary burner. If the lowest afterburner setting itself has excess fuel and all remaining oxygen is combusted, there would be no point in injecting even more fuel for 2 or 3 "higher" afterburner settings. Clearly the explanation is likely to involve something more than just the fuel-air ratio.
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
Maybe it is plasma and the different ways a flame is kept alive in the ass of the engine, that imparts those pretty colors
Re: China Military Watch - Jan 11, 2011
China fake parts 'used in US military equipment'
China is a no brainer. expected behavior.
Ouch.After China, the UK and Canada were found to be the next-largest source countries for fake parts.
China is a no brainer. expected behavior.