LCA News and Discussions

[Pratyush]

AMCA/Tejas updates

The key take away is

GTRE is also determined to fully carry out development work on its current Kaveri engine , which also includes integration of Kaveri engine with Tejas MK-1 platform which should take place by mid o f 2012 with an earlier prototype Tejas aircraft .

[shiv]

You mean India will still exist with all these weaknesses?

I am not a pessimist but as a former HAL Trainee, all i can say is "GOD SAVE INDIA". My HAL instructor brilliantly described HAL as nothing but Russian brain,Russian technology and Indian labor

Interesting. Must be Nasik. In Bangalore it is "nothing but British brain, British technology and Indian labor"

[Indranil]

It does not really matter what I believe

But I do believe that there is a lot of rot in HAL/NAL ... I actually am yet to meet to a guy who has worked in HAL and has had good stories to share ... In more cases than not I end up fighting for HAL rather than the other way around ... A common thing that I kept hearing from my friends was that young people were never given a chance to question ... the moment they would question, they were asked "to not act smart" ... ALL of my friends and acquaintances, without any exception have at least told me this once, "Tu agar wahaan kaam karna bhi chahega, tujhe karne nahi denge!"

The other day I was speaking to a guy on the train from the forces and he said and I quote, "Sahab (misplaced salutation), aap PhD kar rahe ho! bahut badiya hai, aap DRDO mein bharti ho jaiye. Maje ki zindagi hai ... wahaan se jo bhi aate hai, ek kaam nahi karte hai, kissi cheez ko haath nahi lagate. Woh sirf bolenge, yeh karo, woh karo, par kabhi jeb se haath nahi nikalte!"

So as much I hate dhoti shivering, and as much I respect the PSUs for the service that they have provided to the nation, I hate to admit that I am very far from believing that HAL/NAL/DRDO are doing the best that they can.

[abhishek-nayak]

Interesting. Must be Nasik. In Bangalore it is "nothing but British brain, British technology and Indian labor

No i am talking of HAL,sunabeda, the engine division of all our migs and sukhoi's

[abhishek-nayak]

It does not really matter what I believe

But I do believe that there is a lot of rot in HAL/NAL ... I actually am yet to meet to a guy who has worked in HAL and has had good stories to share ... .

CONGRATS, you have me in BR.I worked in the RD 33 Overhauling Section as a trainee.Sorry to tell you i don't have any good stories to tell you about HAL.

[Sagar G]

No i am talking of HAL,sunabeda, the engine division of all our migs and sukhoi's

It's an already known fact you aren't sharing any new information.

[Kersi D]

HAHA, as expected, delays and more delays.By the time AMCA takes it's first flight China would have inducted it's J20 fighter and by the time AMCA joins the airforce,US and China would be inducting 6th gen fighters.

You mean India will still exist with all these weaknesses?

A Chinese 6th generation combat aircraft !!!!!!

Where can I buy one ? Does it fly ?

K

[abhishek-nayak]

No i am talking of HAL,sunabeda, the engine division of all our migs and sukhoi's

It's an already known fact you aren't sharing any new information.

Want new Info? how about the following:-


1) Till date HAL has manufactured just 1 su 30i engine (ie AL31FP) that too is undergoing a long test in the koraput test bed.

2) manufacturing of MIG engines will soon be closed so as to modernize the plant for the manufacturing of AL41F engine for the T50 pakfa plane.

[shiv]

Want new Info? how about the following:-


1) Till date HAL has manufactured just 1 su 30i engine (ie AL31FP) that too is undergoing a long test in the koraput test bed.

2) manufacturing of MIG engines will soon be closed so as to modernize the plant for the manufacturing of AL41F engine for the T50 pakfa plane.

I'm glad they are testing it. Whod'a thunk it!

Keep it coming brother. We need a dose of reality. What else did your HAL instructor tell you?


In my day only IIT guys had this kind of insight! You from IIT?

[tsarkar]

Abhishek - Avoid posting anything that is not public knowledge. Even if someone has worked as an summer trainee, the person still covered under OSA.

Also, different members have different opinions, and its best not to react to divergent opinions.

I do share your sentiments, but please do realize that most BR members get highly carried away by design specifications publicly stated by our top scientists. Its a different matter that the actual performance specifications often do not meet these design specifications, then quite a few BR members indulge in conspiracy theories how services love foreign stuff, etc.

Its quite difficult to express the actual state of affairs without divulging details one is privy too, but internet forums are far removed from the real world to have any effect, and its best not to divulge for the sake of an internet debate.

[vic]

What is actually secret is different from what is not known on the forum. It is difficult to believe that HAL manufactering skills are unknown.

Be as it may, New Al-31 engines will have to be manufactured till 2040, so we still have a long manufactering run for the engines ahead of us. HAL may need to manufacter anything from 500 to 1000 engines.

[abhishek-nayak]

Abhishek - Avoid posting anything that is not public knowledge. Even if someone has worked as an summer trainee, the person still covered under OSA.

Thanks for reminding me about the official Secrets act 1923.In HAL this law is applied mostly to those people who bring in mobile phone or camera inside or near HAL factory.I am not sharing any technical details or any performance or design specifications. The info i mentioned is publicly known in that locality.Anyways i would love to share some general knowledge type infos in this forum

[shiv]

Thanks for reminding me about the official Secrets act 1923.In HAL this law is applied mostly to those people who bring in mobile phone or camera inside or near HAL factory.I am not sharing any technical details or any performance or design specifications. The info i mentioned is publicly known in that locality.Anyways i would love to share some general knowledge type infos in this forum

I am interested in what your instructors told you in other HAL branches like Nasik, Lucknow and Bangalore. Of course - only the public stuff.

But this is certainly disappointing.

Here are links to HAL's engine divisions.

http://www.hal-india.com/enginedivisionkoraput.asp
http://www.hal-india.com/enginedivisionbangalore.asp

Koraput - only Russian engines
Bangalore: Only British engines

That is so sad. My friend's uncle had told me that India has lots of engines named after rivers - Ganga, Jamuna, Brahmaputra etc, - I can't remember all the names. I think Indian labor is being misused

[abhishek-nayak]

I am interested in what your instructors told you in other HAL branches like Nasik, Lucknow and Bangalore. Of course - only the public stuff.

But this is certainly disappointing.

Here are links to HAL's engine divisions.

http://www.hal-india.com/enginedivisionkoraput.asp
http://www.hal-india.com/enginedivisionbangalore.asp

Koraput - only Russian engines
Bangalore: Only British engines

That is so sad. My friend's uncle had told me that India has lots of engines named after rivers - Ganga, Jamuna, Brahmaputra etc, - I can't remember all the names. I think Indian labor is being misused

Since i am a mechanical engineering graduate, i have worked only in the Koraput plant and that too mostly in overhauling and assembly section.
I did a project on Overhauling of RD 33 engines.But i have also some experience in foundry,forging,gear,blade and turbine section.The Koraput HAL is the real thing as all of india's fighter jet engines are made there.The Bangalore one is for trainer jets and jaguars(i think so)

As for naming the engine after rivers is concerned, it is hardly a issue.Most HAL workers don't even know the indian name of the engines.

[kapilrdave]

I am interested in what your instructors told you in other HAL branches like Nasik, Lucknow and Bangalore. Of course - only the public stuff.

But this is certainly disappointing.

Here are links to HAL's engine divisions.

http://www.hal-india.com/enginedivisionkoraput.asp
http://www.hal-india.com/enginedivisionbangalore.asp

Koraput - only Russian engines
Bangalore: Only British engines

That is so sad. My friend's uncle had told me that India has lots of engines named after rivers - Ganga, Jamuna, Brahmaputra etc, - I can't remember all the names. I think Indian labor is being misused

Since i am a mechanical engineering graduate, i have worked only in the Koraput plant and that too mostly in overhauling and assembly section.
I did a project on Overhauling of RD 33 engines.But i have also some experience in foundry,forging,gear,blade and turbine section.The Koraput HAL is the real thing as all of india's fighter jet engines are made there.The Bangalore one is for trainer jets and jaguars(i think so)

As for naming the engine after rivers is concerned, it is hardly a issue.Most HAL workers don't even know the indian name of the engines.

You don't understand Shivji's sarcasm. On the other hand, a trainee (not particularly you, no offence intended) is always fond of passing judgement without understanding the whole thing. As they grow, they understand why things are the way they are. In ANY organization of any sector, majority of employees (say 80%) are for to do the routine work and rest do the thinking/innovating works.

[maitya]

I am interested in what your instructors told you in other HAL branches like Nasik, Lucknow and Bangalore. Of course - only the public stuff.
...
...
That is so sad. My friend's uncle had told me that India has lots of engines named after rivers - Ganga, Jamuna, Brahmaputra etc, - I can't remember all the names. I think Indian labor is being misused

Since i am a mechanical engineering graduate, i have worked only in the Koraput plant and that too mostly in overhauling and assembly section.
I did a project on Overhauling of RD 33 engines.But i have also some experience in foundry,forging,gear,blade and turbine section.The Koraput HAL is the real thing as all of india's fighter jet engines are made there.The Bangalore one is for trainer jets and jaguars(i think so)

As for naming the engine after rivers is concerned, it is hardly a issue.Most HAL workers don't even know the indian name of the engines.

He'a alluding to Kaveri - basically, what the good doc has asked (in his own way, which I admit, requires years of reading and understanding the topics that gets discussed here) you to find out how GTRE came into being and if that had anything to do with HAL's erstwhile engine division and then contrast that infor with what you have posted above?

And if things are so bad, as you are making in a sweeping-generalising mode, how come do we have an contemporary engine (ok there are serious shortfalls on every front in that engine, but even then) designed/developed/tested and on verge of being flight-tested in a decade and a half timeframe (or so) - in the context of the military-industry complex that we have had in the 90's and in 00's.

Shivji, maybe we need to be a little patient with the newer folks and give a little more concrete "line-of-thought" and allow them to defend and maybe change their pov ultimately.

After all, we all have learnt and are still learning, isn't it?

[abhishek-nayak]

He'a alluding to Kaveri - basically, what the good doc has asked (in his own way, which I admit, requires years of reading and understanding the topics that gets discussed here) you to find out how GTRE came into being and if that had anything to do with HAL's erstwhile engine division and then contrast that infor with what you have posted above?

And if things are so bad, as you are making in a sweeping-generalising mode, how come do we have an contemporary engine (ok there are serious shortfalls on every front in that engine, but even then) designed/developed/tested and on verge of being flight-tested in a decade and a half timeframe (or so) - in the context of the military-industry complex that we have had in the 90's and in 00's.

Shivji, maybe we need to be a little patient with the newer folks and give a little more concrete "line-of-thought" and allow them to defend and maybe change their pov ultimately.

After all, we all have learnt and are still learning, isn't it?

i have nothing against HAL or it's workers.I have both good as well as bad experiences at HAL.The criticism i made is not exaggeration but reality and if something wrong happens to HAL, then rest assured Indian airforce will be grounded immediately.Again i say i worked in Sunabeda division and not others.I never said HAL is bad.It's just a chalta hai type organization just like any other govt organization.It's neither good nor bad.

[Kanson]

I do share your sentiments, but please do realize that most BR members get highly carried away by design specifications publicly stated by our top scientists. Its a different matter that the actual performance specifications often do not meet these design specifications, then quite a few BR members indulge in conspiracy theories how services love foreign stuff, etc.

Correct. If that same happens to foreign stuff, spec is re-written to accommodate them. So foreign maals always meet the specification and desi maal as you say, often do not meet design specifications.

[shiv]

India has not designed a successful engine until now other than the PTAE-7 of Lakshya. The good news is Kaveri should be getting there. I think the Russian tests will be done in November. I have heard no bad news yet and the plane with engine was displayed at MAKS.

The manufacture/assembly of Russian and non Russian stuff are strictly segregated. Bangalore has manufactured the Vampire, Gnat, Jaguar and Hawk. Russian aircraft have always been manufactured outside Bangalore.

If you look at the HAL Koraput website - it says that they are manufacturing nuts and bolts as well. Not surprising actually - but surprising too in a way. When you have a running military-industrial complex such as Russia/USA/France/Britain you order nuts and bolts from your local manufacturers who can meet your price/quality/specs.

But when you import an engine/design - there is no such local manufacturer. So either you source small parts from the supplier in Russia/the west, or set up shop to make them here in India. It is the failure of the Indian defence manufacturing policy in not having outsourced such products to private manufacturers. Not even nuts and bolts! Can you believe it? That policy was changed a mere 6-8 years ago. BR has been online longer. We read about it here and many of us are seeing the effects of that change in Aero India shows as more local private cos take part showing their capability.

The Koraput plant that makes nuts and bolts side by side with turbine blades is a socialist dream of creating a Soviet Union in a single tier 4 town of India with a local workforce of possibly questionable engineering skills simply because it is easier to get trained engineers to work and stay in Bangalore or Delhi than Koraput.

Engines made in India have been a source of IAF-HAL friction. I know things have improved somewhat in a decade but there have been crashes and deaths from nuts and bolts left in an engine and fires from clips not having been replaced. However a recent flight safety magazine has a story of a private manufactured fuel pump with loose bits inside - saved by an alert IAF technican. Sadly Indian engineering has been fairly shoddy in areas. Not always - there has been excellence, but centers of excellence have not been fostered in India. Centers of engineering excellence are invariably post-graduate training centers and PG engineering training in India is sneered at. For exmaple IIT graduate s used to/still do look down at MTechs as a useless bunch. The Btechs are the "cream" and the get their PG training abroad.

This will change. Albeit slowly. Koraput and Indian jet engines are a legacy of an 85% rural and 15% literacy India in 1947

[negi]

Abhishek interesting snippet on the AL-31FP, I know the Koraput website claims that it has facilities to make blisks, baldes and other parts of the hot section from raw materials , question is does that apply to AL-31FP too ? Finally afaik we do not have a high altitude test apparatus and related facilities in India so how does one qualify an engine which is being manufactured in India from raw materials for the first time ?

[tsarkar]

If that same happens to foreign stuff, spec is re-written to accommodate them. So foreign maals always meet the specification and desi maal as you say, often do not meet design specifications.

If you objectively analyse foreign purchases vs domestic, you'll realize that specs are more watered down for domestic purchases. IJT HJT 36 Sitara had very basic specs by any standards, yet that program is more dismal than Tejas.

This will change. Albeit slowly.

I seriously doubt unless attitude and policy changes. India has no dearth of Intellectual Property or resources. Its mismanagement that has led to the present state of affairs. What is going horribly wrong is that a select cartel/coterie of PSUs - with the ability to influence policy - have mandated that none other than them can R&D or build defense product. This is to primarily protect their gravy train. Hindustan Shipyards was one of the best shipyards in India from 1941-61. The first Indian ship Jal Usha was built there. lt was nationalized in 1961 and today its performance is abysmal.

Whenever any PSU claims that only they have India's best interests in mind, I am reminded of HM Ambassador's claim of it being the only car fit for Indian roads and Doordarshan's claim of it being the only entity that can broadcast good for the nation.

MDL procures assemblies from France & calls them Mazgaon Procured Materials (MPM). However, it is not illuminated to the public that anything coming from Mazgaon is not fully indigenous, but MPM. HSL was building fine ships in the 50s and 60s, and could have built warships as well, if orders were forthcoming.

Another example of PSU economics. It is claimed that despite huge time overruns, Indian ships are cheaper to build than foreign ships. Now, foreign yards have high labour costs, but deliver in relatively shorter timeframes. Indian yards have low labour costs, but deliver in relatively longer timeframes. Because of the long build time, the benefit of labour arbitrage in India is negated.

However PSU's mask this by multiplying foreign rates with Indian timeframes and showing the supposed cost savings. This is gross misrepresentation, because foreign shipyards never take that long!

This is not a private vs PSU debate. In the US, we observe the opposite. Private Industry has formed a cartel with senators, and innovation is suffering. The Zumwalt destroyers, LCS frigates and JSF fighters cost abnornally high vis-a-vis capability offered.

What I am proposing is transparency - public or private - and disciplined efforts irrespective of whosoever is making those efforts.

The MDL Pipavav deal is a scam. Pipavav will build hulls, charge a good margin, and MDL will outfit those hulls and charge a margin. This means both organizations are charging a margin, and the taxpayer has to pay for two companies's margins/profits while getting only one ship. This started with Goa Shipyards outsourcing hull manufacture to ABG (or some other private yard in Gujarat) and fitting them out in Goa. This is the reason why despite higher budgetary outlay, our capabilities simply dont expand proportionately.

[abhishek-nayak]

Abhishek interesting snippet on the AL-31FP, I know the Koraput website claims that it has facilities to make blisks, baldes and other parts of the hot section from raw materials , question is does that apply to AL-31FP too ? Finally afaik we do not have a high altitude test apparatus and related facilities in India so how does one qualify an engine which is being manufactured in India from raw materials for the first time ?

Yeah HAL has two factories, one for MIG opened in 1960's and another one is for Sukhoi which was opened in 2002.They do make AL31FP parts but only for those engine which come for overhauling.Usually a engine comes for servicing after 1500 flight hrs. In india we have underground test beds in koraput,nashik.

We do not manufacture sukhoi engine yet.The mig engine after being fully constructed is first tested in the sunabeda test bed and then send to nashik for further testing.In nashik they directly attach the engine with the plane and test it(of course ground test is done first) but i am not sure about it.

[Nikhil T]

The MDL Pipavav deal is a scam. Pipavav will build hulls, charge a good margin, and MDL will outfit those hulls and charge a margin. This means both organizations are charging a margin, and the taxpayer has to pay for two companies's margins/profits while getting only one ship. This started with Goa Shipyards outsourcing hull manufacture to ABG (or some other private yard in Gujarat) and fitting them out in Goa. This is the reason why despite higher budgetary outlay, our capabilities simply dont expand proportionately.

Sir by that logic the solution is to have one manufacturer have all the capabilities. Procurement of parts like GE LM 2500+ CODOG engines also happens this way. The engine is imported - GE gets a margin, the shipyard installs it on the Ship - shipyard gets a commission. I think the MDL Pipavav deal is great news. Its for the first time that a Govt Shipbuilding yard is collaborating as a JV - this also means shared ownership i.e. if the margins between MDL and Pipavav are exorbitant, the JV will lose future orders. We need to create centers of excellence in shipbuilding - if L&T is great with submarine hulls, then it should get those orders. Sooner than later, the Navy will have to give orders to Private shipyards if it is going to achieve a 140+ ship blue-water strength.

Also, shipbuilding is probably the only Pvt sector initiative in defence that has sunk serious capital $$$ into building infrastructure first before asking for orders.

[NRao]

This means both organizations are charging a margin, and the taxpayer has to pay for two companies's margins/profits while getting only one ship.

In theory the two companies should be spliting the work, so it should not matter - some basic assumptions apply. The cost to the tax payer should be about the same.

[SaiK]

Actually the problem lies in the findings itself..

centers of excellence are at phd level onlee..

Now this has to change to starting from kindergarten level.

masan middle school has pre-engineering/tech-ed.

/OT, but may help.

[shiv]

Actually the problem lies in the findings itself..

centers of excellence are at phd level onlee..

Now this has to change to starting from kindergarten level.

masan middle school has pre-engineering/tech-ed.

/OT, but may help.

Very much OT onlee. It is said that a class of Industrial Training Institute graduates have practical skills but no engineering knowledge. Many Indian trained engineer graduates have little by way of practical skills. There is now a belated "lateral entry" process for allowing Industrial training institute graduates to become engineers via a truncated course.

The other problem with HAL is the gubermand need to put up factories where no one else is putting up factories to generate employment. I betcha Koraput has been built around HAL. HAL Bangalore benefits from ten thousand schools and colleges locally with any number of people wanting to live there. Who actually chooses Koraput as "This is my dream town to live out my life". That is true for other towns too - including Nashik.

[Yagnasri]

I thought there was a factory coming up in Odissa. What happened to that?

[vivek_v]

The other problem with HAL is the gubermand need to put up factories where no one else is putting up factories to generate employment. I betcha Koraput has been built around HAL. HAL Bangalore benefits from ten thousand schools and colleges locally with any number of people wanting to live there. Who actually chooses Koraput as "This is my dream town to live out my life". That is true for other towns too - including Nashik.

Extreme OT, this issue is more pronounced in places like HAL Korwa (it is located near rahul baba's constituency) where some avionics work takes place. I Still distinctly remember a place with one Internet center in the whole campus and one small hotel outside the campus (ramlakan sweets or something like that) where the same menu gets served for breakfast, lunch and dinner and having a power cut of 6 hours everyday. Datacard gave me one signal point for browsing. Not many's first choice would me " Guess what i want to stay in Korwa". The exposure and the quality of people you could attract to such campus is quite limited. Compare this with HAL Hyd where there is a perceptible difference in quality of the campus, the difference is stark indeed.

Anyways back to lurk mode.

[abhishek-nayak]

I thought there was a factory coming up in Odissa. What happened to that?

i don't think so they are building any new plant in orissa.Last i heard is that they are now planning to modernizing the MIG plant for the handling of PAKFA .One thing i forgot to mention is that the HAL factory is located in one of the most dangerous parts of india.It's in southern koraput district in the town of sunabeda.The town was specially constructed for HAL and it's employees.Just outside the township Cobra commandos carry out regular combing operations.This koraput district is the 3rd most affected district in india from Maoist violence after dantewada in chattisgarh and malkangiri in orissa.

[shiv]

" Guess what i want to stay in Korwa". The exposure and the quality of people you could attract to such campus is quite limited. Compare this with HAL Hyd where there is a perceptible difference in quality of the campus, the difference is stark indeed.

India's socialist PSU's are an example of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The government has no incentive to choose the best technical location. It is a political location. If you are an engineer who gladly takes up work in Korwa/Koraput and then starts a family where will your kids go to school and college? This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. Do you have to sacrifice family for country and you profession?

[abhishek-nayak]

The other problem with HAL is the gubermand need to put up factories where no one else is putting up factories to generate employment. I betcha Koraput has been built around HAL. HAL Bangalore benefits from ten thousand schools and colleges locally with any number of people wanting to live there. Who actually chooses Koraput as "This is my dream town to live out my life". That is true for other towns too - including Nashik.

No, HAL build it's plant in Koraput district and not koraput township.A town called as Sunabeda was constructed in the 60's for the plant and it's employees.Non HAL employees are not allowed to live in that town.During my training days i used to live in the neighboring town of Semiliguda.Koraput district is the Kashmir of Orissa.It's very cold there throughout the year and during the winters, temperatures are usually 5-10 degree.

[ArmenT]

^^^^
Just out of curiosity, are electricity, water, transport etc. all guaranteed 24/7 (or at least plant working hours) in remote townships? Or does HAL build a separate power station as part of the package of setting up a plant in smaller towns?

[vina]

This will change. Albeit slowly. Koraput and Indian jet engines are a legacy of an 85% rural and 15% literacy India in 1947

Indeed. In addition, the "socialist" paradise of a commie/Kangress unionized workforce, doing "heroic" socialist labor and "self sufficiency" in Govt owned factores and "planned economy" is a big contributory reason as well.

The reforms of 1991 have just about started percolating down to the private sector. For eg "Shipbuilding" was a "Govt Reserved" sector.. "It had to be in the commanding heights" you see. So, even pioneering ones like Scindia Shipyard was nationalized as HSL (and run to the ground).. GRSE, etc soon followed, Cochin anyway was the communist paradise/ wet dream with an abysmal record in building anything .It is only in the last 10 years, you have private guys (many who went to the IITs) have built up the capital and when the policy was opened out, you have a rash of shipyards (Pipapav, ABG, L&T etc) coming up (and kicking ass and winning international orders) and now knocking the doors of the defense orders and trying to kick down the doddering PSU dinosaurs.

[tsarkar]

Sir by that logic the solution is to have one manufacturer have all the capabilities. Procurement of parts like GE LM 2500+ CODOG engines also happens this way. The engine is imported - GE gets a margin, the shipyard installs it on the Ship - shipyard gets a commission.

Lets separate manufacturing from components. Components like radars and engines always come from OEM and is not relevant for our discussions. What shipyards like DCN/Pipavav/MDL manufacture is hull/superstructure modules + specialized parts like masts and sonar housings.

What Mazgaon Procured Materials (MPM) means is that certain parts - like shock proof rafts on which equipment like engine and DG sets in submarines are mounted to minimize noise and vibration - will be procured from DCN. The reason why this goes against indigenization is that as a shipyard, MDL is supposed to manufacture those or acquire knowhow. When it simply buys structural components and installs and passes it off as indigenous, then it is not being honest to itself or the nation.

I think the MDL Pipavav deal is great news. Its for the first time that a Govt Shipbuilding yard is collaborating as a JV - this also means shared ownership

Now, as I understand how it will work, Pipavav will manufacture some structural blocks or maybe the entire hull and MDL will put it together and add equipment. The reason its inefficient is that two shipyards will be working on an activity that can effectively be done by one. And both will charge for it.

UK shipyards are building their aircraft carrier in that manner - multiple blocks from multiple shipyards, but it is for employment generation given the high unemployment there. But their Royal Navy suffers, they cant afford ships in sufficient numbers because of the high cost of such programs, hence they're today smaller than the Indian Navy.

i.e. if the margins between MDL and Pipavav are exorbitant, the JV will lose future orders. We need to create centers of excellence in shipbuilding

No, L1 rule doesnt apply for orders to PSU. An esoteric clause called "Acceptance of Necessity" is used. Nothing stops MDL from charging 30% margin + cost from MoD, and passing 15% margin + cost to Pipavav. Pipavav is happy, because it will never get a frigate/destroyer order under normal circumstances. The policy is skewed that when a PSU builds destroyers, other private players will be denied permission, because government needs to provide revenue to government.

The policy is similar to the government policy that all government employees need to fly Air India for official travel + LTC. This despite the fact that a LCC may charge one third of what AI is charging. The government will deliberately lose money for giving Air India business.

Pipavav has found a good way of milking the mamaries of the welfare state. And MDL can grab even more orders.

In theory the two companies should be spliting the work, so it should not matter - some basic assumptions apply. The cost to the tax payer should be about the same.

As I said, L1 doesnt apply for PSU. If a PSU is doing the same work as a private firm, then typically the order goes to the PSU even if the private firm is T1 or L1. For the decision maker, its a good cover-your-ass exercise, because he is spending government money on another arm of the government, completely ignoring that the other government arm may be incompetent or inefficient.

Not giving business to a PSU is akin to treason for a government officer.

[vina]

India's socialist PSU's are an example of robbing Peter to pay Paul. The government has no incentive to choose the best technical location. It is a political location. If you are an engineer who gladly takes up work in Korwa/Koraput and then starts a family where will your kids go to school and college? This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. Do you have to sacrifice family for country and you profession?

Ah.. The socialist paradise had self contained townships like the Former Soviet Union where the "socialist workers" could live and work and by definition, there would be a kendriya vidyalaya there as well. That is how these things work.

But anyway, the problem is that R&D does not and need not happen at Korwa, It would be just a manufacturing entity. All it would need are skilled technicians and manufacturing folks and the engineers there would be line/production/maintenance engg than top end R&D and design ones, who per the socialist model would be in GTRE in Bangalore, Kerala. So yeah, the blue collar/ very pale blue collar folks can be kicked out to the Korwa/Sonebada boonies to "develop" the country and spread all the peace and prosperity. That was the PSU bizn model.. BHEL, HAL, ITI, HMT, you name it, all of them , similar models.

[abhishek-nayak]

^^^^
Just out of curiosity, are electricity, water, transport etc. all guaranteed 24/7 (or at least plant working hours) in remote townships? Or does HAL build a separate power station as part of the package of setting up a plant in smaller towns?

The township is not completely remote, they do have engineering colleges,diploma institutes and english medium schools.A lot of telugu people also live there.The population of both the towns (sunabeda and semeliguda) must be around 2-3 lakh.Yes Water and electricity are 24/7 available.Lodge and hotels are cheap as well as of good quality.The road quality is bad but AC bus is easily available.

There is a dam nearby and naturally HAL factory is the no 1 priority.I don't think so HAL has a separate power station there.

[tsarkar]

If you are an engineer who gladly takes up work in Korwa/Koraput and then starts a family where will your kids go to school and college? This is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. Do you have to sacrifice family for country and you profession?

For some it might be a professional or patriotic decision, but for most its the stability & perks of a government job. Recession or Inflation, there's always pay commission. And after a 3 year stint, they'll demand a move to better location.

[vic]

GoI has never put in the typf of money required for deep manufactering required by HAL. We prefer to waste money on things like CWG

[Sid]

Is this "the" LCA thread?

[suryag]

I am still waiting for those LSPs to fly, may be both LSP7 & 8 will fly this month.