Genocide Denial: the war against history

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Atish
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Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

About 3 months ago I stumbled across and article in the Economist on rape during wars. It listed the Indian Army :eek: as being responsible for (only) 200,000 rapes in Bangladesh. subsequently they corrected the error on the website, which has a much smaller readership that the mag, without a prominent apology in the print section.

Now this woman Sarmila Bose is popping up everywhere giving her theory on how gallant and chivalrous the Paki army was. What blew me over was that she holds a faculty position at Oxford, not some unknown entity as I would have imagined.

The Bangladesh Genocide is so little known inside India that its a criminal murder of history, no less despicable than holocaust denial. when people realize that Pakis could kill 2-3 million fellow muslims and citizens for their cock a bull theories and bloodymindedness, it exposes forever how ridiculous Aman ki asha is and why Mani Shankar Aiyer deserves a punishment I dare not print.

I have a feeling that there is a conspiracy of silence regarding 1971 within the Indian media and government. Because in today's India the words "secular" and "communal" mean exactly the opposite of what they are supposed to. The argument I think probably goes like this:

Pakistani Army/Pakistan = Islam, Rape/murder = evil. since Islam cannot be associated even tangentially with evil (that would be a communal statement), therefore Pakistani army cannot commit rape and murder.

There is a great deal of support for the rapists and murderers in Bangladesh too. So this is a case where both the Jews (victims) nor the Allied forces (anti genociders) are willing to blame the enemy (Nazis) for their sins. If this attitude was taken by allies and Jews after WW 2, Nazism would be a political powerhouse again within Europe.

I think that Indians are making a big mistake by not giving adequate thought, publicity and attention to the 1971 experience. Question is what is going on and what can be done about it? Is there a deliberate conspiracy to downplay 1971?
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Rahul M »

good thread Atish. http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/ is a reasonably comprehensive primer for those who are unaware of the enormity of pakistan's genocidal nature.

p.s. good to see you after a long time Atish.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yesterday Canada's Globe and Mail had a front page heading on the Civil war (the US) "Worst loss of life on American soil".

One wonders if these people are merely stupid-I don't think even this can be explained by the usual Christian, White blah blah ethnocentrism.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by harbans »

On a long Taxi drive when in Tasmania, during a conversation with a Taxi driver i asked incidently about Tasmanian aborginals and their population. I was shocked when she said matter of factly..'the last one was executed in 1929'. I could'nt control myself and blurted means it was genocide of the entire race. To which she said yes one can say so..i could'nt help telling that India in it's entieriry never committed genocide of any race or culture. It protected Jews, Parsi's , Tibetans. Gave a home to all throughout history..how could people genocide a people that have give a home to one was beyond me. It must have sucked to be aborginal in those days. Sometimes i feel Whites take off their inherent guilt of genocide by ridiculing India on the Caste issue. When whites raise this with me i always say there is no word for Caste in Hindi or sanskrit at least. The first Caste based formal divisions were made by the British. The word is Varna misinterpreted with Caste. The feudal-serf volatility is being defined in caste terms. The Feudal-Serf equation is of European import.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by brihaspati »

Is the thread on just Bangladesh genocide denial - or all genocide denials? Suggest fixing that in particular reference - otherwise there can be soon equal-equal or "worse than" claims. For example there already exist claims about matching stuff on a certain "valley" if you raise things about Paki la-jabaab napungsaks in uniform. Typically its a short walk from there to Shoa[HaShoa] and Naqba denial equal equal.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by brihaspati »

The most common claim is that a certain British news service printed an extra "0" at the end of 3,00,000 deaths/missing onlee by mistake onlee. Moreover, pictorial evidence of deaths were from the Bay-of-Bengal hurricane which were passed off by the perfidious "Hindu"s and kaffirs as evidence of Paki kindness. Even "non-subcontinental" authors are to be suspected for reliability if they find evidence of massive organized Nazi style extermination camps and systematized brothel/sex-slavery from Bengali women. Even greater turn of tongue twisting is to be resorted to if there is an exploration of community-wise break up of victims. How dare one denigrate the memory of "shaheeds" or "viranganas" by trying to look into the demographic profile of the targets - for that may show religious motivation too - cannot be allowed!
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atri »

The Blood Telegram
The Blood telegram (April 6, 1971) was seen as one of the most strongly worded Dissent Channel [4] messages ever written by Foreign Service Officers to the State Department[5]. It was signed by 29 Americans. The telegram stated:
Our government has failed to denounce the suppression of democracy. Our government has failed to denounce atrocities. Our government has failed to take forceful measures to protect its citizens while at the same time bending over backwards to placate the West Pak[istan] dominated government and to lessen any deservedly negative international public relations impact against them. Our government has evidenced what many will consider moral bankruptcy,(...) But we have chosen not to intervene, even morally, on the grounds that the Awami conflict, in which unfortunately the overworked term genocide is applicable, is purely an internal matter of a sovereign state. Private Americans have expressed disgust. We, as professional civil servants, express our dissent with current policy and fervently hope that our true and lasting interests here can be defined and our policies redirected.

(U.S. Consulate (Dacca) Cable, Dissent from U.S. Policy Toward East Pakistan, April 6, 1971, Confidential, 5 pp. Includes Signatures from the Department of State. Source: RG 59, SN 70-73 Pol and Def. From: Pol Pak-U.S. To: Pol 17-1 Pak-U.S. Box 2535;[6])
In an earlier telegram (March 27, 1971), Blood wrote about American observations at Dhaka under the subject heading "Selective genocide":
1. Here in Decca we are mute and horrified witnesses to a reign of terror by the Pak[istani] Military. Evidence continues to mount that the MLA authorities have list of AWAMI League supporters whom they are systematically eliminating by seeking them out in their homes and shooting them down
2. Among those marked for extinction in addition to the A.L. hierarchy are student leaders and university faculty. In this second category we have reports that Fazlur Rahman head of the philosophy department and a Hindu, M. Abedin, head of the department of history, have been killed. Razzak of the political science department is rumored dead. Also on the list are the bulk of MNA's elect and number of MPA's.
3. Moreover, with the support of the Pak[istani] Military. non-Bengali Muslims are systematically attacking poor people's quarters and murdering Bengalis and Hindus.
(U.S. Consulate (Dacca) Cable, Selective genocide, March 27, 1971[7])
Although Blood was scheduled for another 18 month tour in Dhaka, President Richard M. Nixon and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger recalled him from that position since his opposition went against their hopes of using the support of West Pakistan for diplomatic openings to China and to counter the power of the Soviet Union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Blood

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just posting it for record to hint at US perfidy and support to largest genocide since holocaust.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

My essential concern is winning hearts and minds. Let us remember that during WW 2, all of the West had officially racist policies, the only reason they are considered the morally superior force is because of the Holocaust. Ditto communism, without the records of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao, the Cultural Revolution why would anybody think that the demise of the communism was bad. After all, there are plenty of human rights abuses and injustice in the West too.

The equal equal argument has to be broken. Indo-Pak is a fight of Good vs Evil, the Sane vs the Insane, and Civilization vs Genocidal Nihilistic Fascists. Without this conviction, victory will always be elusive, with it, almost guaranteed. Win hearts and minds, the battlefields and policy rooms are but a detail. And with the history of the past 100 years, genocide is the one argument which cannot be countered, by the left or the right, by the religious or the secular, it is a clinching argument.

The worst state sponsored massacre in India (1984), was 100 to a 1000 times less severe than 1971. If we can drum the information, just facts no propaganda necessary to every Indian we will win. Which is why I say that to a goodish extent, India is suffering from the Paki Problem because of its own lack of moral clarity. This is a form of cowardice and a mortal sin. Why is this not covered extensively in our media, school books etc. Can you imagine what Pakiland would have done if the reverse had happened? Indian self esteem and conviction would have been so thoroughly broken, I doubt we would have survived.

Lincoln said, "If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong". I say, If Nazism is not wrong, nothing is wrong; If communism is not wrong, nothing is wrong, and If Pakistan is not wrong, nothing is wrong.

If I ever make a billion dollars I will make it my life's mission to make this info popular. since that is unlikely, we should think of other methods.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Lalmohan »

the moral superiority comes from ostrich like head in the sand, pretending it never happened or that our boys couldnt do it etc., etc
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

From the first post of the Packee thread
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Pakistani army genocide in Bangladesh
How many died?

The number of dead in Bangladesh in 1971 was almost certainly well into seven figures. It was one of the worst genocides of the World War II era, outstripping Rwanda (800,000 killed) and probably surpassing even Indonesia (1 million to 1.5 million killed in 1965-66). As R.J. Rummel writes,

The human death toll over only 267 days was incredible. Just to give for five out of the eighteen districts some incomplete statistics published in Bangladesh newspapers or by an Inquiry Committee, the Pakistani army killed 100,000 Bengalis in Dacca, 150,000 in Khulna, 75,000 in Jessore, 95,000 in Comilla, and 100,000 in Chittagong. For eighteen districts the total is 1,247,000 killed. This was an incomplete toll, and to this day no one really knows the final toll. Some estimates of the democide [Rummel's "death by government"] are much lower -- one is of 300,000 dead -- but most range from 1 million to 3 million. ... The Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 331.)
Image

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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by ManuT »

X-Post from Subcontinentalism thread ...

anupmisra wrote:Of all the threads, I think this is the best one for this article. Read and learn from history, folks. Read, learn and remember. For those who Forget Are Doomed to Repeat It.

A khaki dissident on 1971
"Kill as many b@stards as you can and make sure there is no Hindu left alive"
Over nine million went as refugees to India. An order was given to kill the Hindus. I received the same order many times and was reminded of it .
Of the ninety-three lakh (9.3 million) refugees in India, ninety lakh were Hindus


Still want the pakis and the bangladeshis to join with India for pan-subcontinentalism?
======================================================================
From the article:
“Sir, I do not kill unarmed civilians who do not fire at me,” I replied.

“Kill the Hindus. It is an order for everyone. Don’t show me your commando finesse!”
...

He fired from his machine gun and some of the villagers who had brought us water, fell dead. “That is the way my boy,” the Colonel told this poor Major.
...
For operations and visits to my sub units, I travelled all over East Pakistan. I never killed anybody nor ever ordered any killing. I was fortunately not even witness to any massacre. But I knew what was going on in every sector. Thousands were killed and millions rendered homeless. Over nine million went as refugees to India. An order was given to kill the Hindus. I received the same order many times and was reminded of it . The West Pakistani soldiery considered that Kosher. The Hamood Ur Rehman Commission Report mentions this order.
...
With federal capital in Islamabad, dominated by West Pakistani civil servants and what they called a Punjabi Army, East Pakistanis felt like subjects of a colony. They never liked it ever since 1947. In early sixties, my fellow Bengali officers called each other general, a rank they would have in an independent East Pakistan. We all took it in good humour. But 1971 was not a joke. Every single Bengali felt oppressed. Their life and death was now in the hands of what they called "Shala Punjabies".



What drove me mad? Well I felt the collective guilt of the Army action which at worst should have stopped by late April 1971. Moreover, when I returned to West Pakistan, here nobody was pushed about what had happened or was happening in East Pakistan. Thousands of innocent fellow citizens had been killed, women were raped and millions were ejected from their homes in East Pakistan but West Pakistan was calm. It went on and on .The world outside did not know very much either. This owes to the fact that reporters were not there. General Tikka was branded as "Butcher Of Bengal". He hardly commanded for two weeks. Even during those two weeks, the real command was in the hands of General Mitha, his second-in-command. General Mitha literally knew every inch of Bengal. He personally took charge of every operation till General Niazi reached at the helm. At this juncture, General Mitha returned to GHQ. General Tikka, as governor, was a good administrator and made sure that all services ran. Trains, ferries, postal services, telephone lines were functioning and offices were open. There was no shortage of food, anywhere by May 1971. All in all, a better administrative situation than Pakistan of today ! But like Pakistan of today, nobody gave a damn about what happens to the poor and the minorities.

In Dhaka, where I served most of the time, there was a ghostly feeling until about mid April 1971. But gradually life returned to normal in the little circuit I moved: Cantonment, Dacca Club, Hotel Intercontinental, the Chinese restaurant near New Market. Like most human beings, I was not looking beyond my nose. I moved around a lot in the city. My brother-in-law, Riaz Ahmed Sipra was serving as SSP Dhaka. We met almost daily. But the site of rendezvous were officers’ mess, some club or a friend’s house in Dhan Mandi. Even if I could move everywhere, I did not peep into the hearts of the Bengalis. They were silent but felt oppressed and aware of the fact that the men in uniforms were masters of their lives and properties. I frequently met Mr Fazlul Qadir Chaudhry, Maulana Farid Ahmed and many other Muslim League and Jamaat leaders in one government office or the other. Prof. Ghulam Azam and Ch Rehmat Elahi also used to meet me to provide me volunteers to carry out sabotage across the Indian Border.

Dr Yasmin Sakia, an Indian scholar teaching in America, told me once an anecdote. When she asked why in the 1990s she could not find any cooperation in tracing rape-victims of 1971, she was told by a victim," Those who offered us to the Army are rulers now."


...
The untold part of the story is that one day I enquired about one soldier from Cammandos unit. He used to be my favourite in 1962. “Sir, Aziz-ul –Haq was killed”, the Subedar told me rather sheepishly.

“How?” was not a relevant question in those days. Still I did ask.

“Sir! first they were put in a cell, later shot in the cell”.

My worst nightmare even forty years later is the sight of fellow soldiers being shot in a cell. “How many ?” was my next question. “There were six sir, but two survived. They pretended to be dead but were alive,” came the reply.

“Where are they ?”

“In Cammilla sir, under custody”.

I flew from Dacca to Commilla. I saw two barely recognizable wraiths. Only if you know what that means to a fellow soldier! It is worse than suffering or causing a thousand deaths. I got them out, ordered their uniforms and weapons. “Go, take your salary and weapons and come back after ten days.” They came back and fought alongside, were prisoners and then were with difficulty, repatriated in 1976. Such stories differ, depending on who reports.

All these incidents, often gone unreported, are not meant to boast about my innocence. I was guilty of having volunteered to go to East Pakistan. My brother-in-law Justice Sajjad Sipra was the only one who criticized my choice of posting. “You surely have no shame,” he said to my disconcert. My army friends celebrated my march from Kakul to Lahore. We drank and sang! None of us were in two minds. We were single-mindedly murderous! In the Air Force Mess at Dacca, over Scotch, a friend who later rose to a high rank said, “ I saw a gathering of Mukti Bahini in thousands. I made a few runs and let them have it. A few hundred ******** must have been killed” My heart sank. “Dear! it is the weekly Haath (Market) day and villagers gather there,” I informed him in horror. “ Surely they were all Bingo ********!,” he added. There were friends who boasted about their score. I had gone on a visit to Commilla. I met my old friend, then Lt. Col. Mirza Aslam Beg and my teacher, Gen. Shaukat Raza. Both expressed their distaste for what was happening. Tony, a journalist working with state-owned news agency APP, escaped to London. He wrote about these atrocities that officers had committed and boasted about. It was all published by the ‘Times of London’. The reading made me feel guilty as if I had been caught doing it myself! In the Army, you wear no separate uniform. We all share the guilt. We may not have killed. But we connived and were part of the same force. History does not forgive!
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Rahul M »

this picture needs to be posted as well.

Image
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Hari Seldon »

The shrilless with which the 'west' attempts to occupy the 'moral high ground', second only to the super-shrillness of the packees, now becomes understandable. They're merely following military dictums of "attack is the best defence and all that" only.

The Economist rag's subtle racism and anti-Yindia bias is no secret but is executed so neatly it is hard to make a watertight case against them. Even I'm forced to admit I read that rag as its' coverage of the rest of the world is excellent only.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

From the gendercide link above and also quoted in my ebook
They were in batches of six or eight, and in the light of
a powerful electric arc lamp, they were easy targets,
black against the silvery water. The executioners stood
on the pier, shooting down at the compact bunches of
prisoners wading in the water. There were screams in the
hot night air, and then silence. The prisoners fell on
their sides and their bodies lapped against the shore.
Then a new bunch of prisoners was brought out, and the
process was repeated. In the morning the village boatmen
hauled the bodies into midstream and the ropes binding
the bodies were cut so that each body drifted separately
downstream. (Payne, Massacre [Macmillan, 1973], p. 55.)
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by harbans »

This is possibly from one of the 5 liberals in Pakistan..
Let us remember that this is the same Kayani who was in Washington just three weeks ago with a fifty-six page shopping list of arms and ammunition that he wanted from the United States. These are weapons designed to kill innocents, but more importantly for the Army, there is much money to be made in weapons deals. So to keep the gravy train going, the Army needs to keep finding punching bags, and right now, the people of FATA are it.

But while we’re at it, let’s ask the Army to apologize for the slaughter of innocents in the following as well:

1971: The East Pakistan/Bangladesh massacre, in which millions may have been murdered
1974: The Baluchistan operation, which massacred thousands
1983: Army operations in Sindh against the MRD movement, killing thousands
Now: Operations in Baluchistan which have killed thousands, as well as the operations in Swat and FATA

And certainly, the brutality and oppression visited on the Afghan people under the Afghan Taliban is more blood on the hands of the Pakistani military establishment.

We don’t want apologies, General Kayani. We demand accountability for the murders that you and the Army have committed for decades.
https://progpak.wordpress.com/2010/04/1 ... s-apology/

Rahul M ji, that pic is a classic. Routine check procedure verification. Wrt erstwhile East Pakistan not being cut in the right place meant getting cut up completely for a lot of people. I've always had the feeling that 9-10 million coming into India would be a lower SDRE type estimate only.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

Can you imagine how the Indian editorial writing class would have treated if the Indian army would have been the killers. 2002 has been exploited to make India the moral equivalent of Pakiland, and Samjhauta to equate Hindutva with Islamofascism. The only problem is one is 1000 times worse than the other, and since there never will be perfection in human institutions, no institution is bad because no institution is perfectly good either.

A single episode like 1971 may be enough for vivisection of India since not unfairly so, the moral conviction in our elite, our soldiery will disappear. Pakis because they are pathological do not feel this problem. And the Indian intelligentsia like Mani Shankar Iyer, by mentioning Pakis as just like us, are no better than the worst Nazi apologists and holocaust deniers.

I have noticed that sometimes, the themes of discourse that I read on BR after a few years lag makes its way to the mainstream. I am hoping somebody will call out MS Iyer and their ilk and expose them for what they are on TV or mainstream newspapers. We gotta talk about 1971 over and over again, everywhere we can. Never ever let them forget, always put them on the defensive. We have the clinching argument already , we just don't use it.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

Shiv,

How can we give more visibility to this issue? Make it more prominent in the mainstream.

Atish.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Manny »

In India, they do not teach schools about any Genocide. They don't teach about the Holocaust. the Goa Inquisition, the Islamic Genocide ...nothing.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

Atish wrote:Shiv,

How can we give more visibility to this issue? Make it more prominent in the mainstream.

Atish.
Not an easy question to answer. But I believe that keeping the issue alive and relentlessly giving it publicity via fora such as this and via other social media like Facebook will allow enough people to become aware of it and provide enough interlinking on the internet that make the information pop up easily in searches done after 2-3 years. So if you start work now - expect it to come to the mainstream in 2-3 years.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

I do put it on Facebook, which is not easy coz I have substantial number of Pakistanis who are individually extremely good chaps. And talk about it as much as I can everywhere I can. Also have got a reputation as a rabble-rouser and a Hindutva type. But I dont care, way I see it its my constitutionally mandated and humanitarian duty, consequences be damned. I am looking for allies in this Jihad. help me BR-ites. Try to understand the power of this simple message. Drum this into people's heads. We are reaping a bloody dividend for forgetting history. Forget about what akbar did or Tipu did not. This is recent enough that it cannot be easily whitewashed.

Atish.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by JE Menon »

One of the most effective ways is to go about it changing one mind at a time... Talk to people when the subject comes up, rationally, gently and persuasively without getting bug-eyed about it. It's extremely effective, and there are enough of us. Of course, blogs, twitter, facebook, social-nets in general help a lot as well.. The message has to be tailored to the audience... Time consuming but ultimately effective.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Yagnasri »

According to Justice Khadju of Supreme court Muslim kings are shown in a bad lights etc. His big statement

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 704204.ece

Welcome to new history now written by Judges.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by anupmisra »

I am happy to see this rather touchy thread. It will likely bring out the best and the worst amongst us. Time will tell as this thread grows.

There are genocides and then there are GENOCIDES. The first one (a relative term) is conducted over a short period of time. For example, the Bengali genocide by the paki army and their local lashkars (even though numbering in millions and probably lasting one year or so). The second one is a systematic elimination (or an effort to) of one group of people over decades, centuries or even millenia. What happened to the Hindus in the sub-continent and the Jews and the Armenians in Europe would fall under this. The Jewish people have made an effort to remember what happened to them over thousands of years (even remind others of it regularly). The world ignores the Armenian plight. But it is unfortunate that most Hindus have forgotten that part of their history. The few attempts to chronicle that memory have been futile and frowned upon.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

Why would you try to highlight events that are lost in the mists of history, versus much more relevant and pertinent events of 1971? The nonchalance of Indians to the genocide against Bengalis and by Bengalis themselves is a fascinating (and disturbing) psychological phenomena. People like MSA wax copious tears about the Palestinians and rant against Israel, but sing love songs for the Pakis why? why? Apart from the fact that he is an ********, I mean. why can he get away with it? Why isnt he called out? Do the Punjabis/ North Indian Muslims feel a kinship for the Paki Army versus the Bengalis? Whats going on?
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

http://isq.sagepub.com/content/43/1/73.full.pdf (I think dloads need subscription, if there is nuff interest I can post the full pdf here).
The U.S. Congress and the 1971 crisis in East Pakistan -- P.V.Rao, International Studies, 2006, 43:73
In the wake of Pakistan'’s military crackdown on East Pakistan and the consequent crisis situation in the subcontinent, the American Congress demanded an immediate policy response from the White House. But the Nixon Administration’s “massive inaction” towards the East Pakistan situation failed to satisfy Congressional concern. Congress reacted by suspending American military and economic aid to Pakistan until the conflict was resolved by Pakistan’'s military regime and international relief work was allowed in the affected areas. The US government’'s continued shipping of arms to Pakistan, despite suspension, angered the Congress and India. Unconvinced by the Administration'’s explanation, the Congress undertook the unusual step of touring the subcontinent and visiting refugee relief camps both in East Pakistan and India. The East Pakistan crisis exemplified both the strength and limitations of the US Congress in playing a role, along with the executive, in foreign policy matters.
Gus
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Gus »

Changing one mind at a time and using social media - like 'remembering the genocide' on anniversaries etc or pointing to the Archer Blood telegram and posting a pic of it etc on Facebook may catch on.

In fact, I am going to hunt for a suitable pic and post it in my FB. Any dates on this genocide coming up, that we start a little FB campaign on?
Atish
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Atish »

Hmm yah, like an intellectual Anti Pakistan page focusing on the genocide. This is a good idea. I wonder what the red lines are not to get banned on FB though. Something on twitter maybe?
negi
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by negi »

Atish there is a hate India page and other derogatory pages posted by dallas from land of pure on FB I don't see any reason why a page with facts and images from the past will land you in trouble.

This is what I will suggest if the page is going to have some serious stuff then you might want to share the id with someone like minded so that you guys can delete the crap being posted by paklurks.
shiv
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

Atish I am ready for a Facebook campaign. I have gathered up the courage to get on Facebook.
svinayak
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by svinayak »

negi wrote:Atish there is a hate India page and other derogatory pages posted by dallas from land of pure on FB I don't see any reason why a page with facts and images from the past will land you in trouble.

This is what I will suggest if the page is going to have some serious stuff then you might want to share the id with someone like minded so that you guys can delete the crap being posted by paklurks.
There is a site for even - We Hate Dhoni
Unless we have large numbers others are going to drown us in FB
saadhak
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by saadhak »

I read somewhere that "The Pakistan-based anti-Indian viewpoint seems to be disproportionally represented on the net". It is true.

Talking about online campaigns, spreading awareness, bringing out the truth and never forgetting, how about starting on a series of myth v/s fact pages on TSP, Kashmir, 1971 war and others as needed?

The TSP page for example can be a compilation of standard Paki claims, whines, rationalizations, WKK logix that are repeated deliberately with the aim to whitewash history and establish these as the truths.
For example:
1. Pakistan is a victim of terrorism
2. Pakistan started its quest for nuclear weapons after 1974
3. The people of Pakistan want peace with India. It is only the army and the ruling class are keeping the Indian and Pakistani citizens apart. Therefore we must encourage people to people contacts
4. "Indian-held-Kashmir" v/s "Azad Kashmir"

This can include a references section with relevant links like the below
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

IMHO, this page should be kept free of sarcasm, emotion and focus on keeping the narrative to cold-and-hard facts which can be easily verified by a simple google search. The text should be reviewed by the BRF gurus.

It can probably be expanded later to give the India POV to the various "solutions" or advice that comes from the western world on the solutions for peace in the subcontinent - for example pushing India to give up Kashmir, or holding India responsible for ensuring stability in Pakistan, etc.

The day-to-day discussions on the various forum threads are a wealth of information, but it is 'unstructured data' - not easy to recall and search the information. This will be an on-demand page for re-directing less informed countrymen who form their opinions based on DDM news only.

I think if we desire to counter the propaganda machinery and do our bit to win the information war (in fact this is a defensive step in countering misinformation), it would be good to have strong data points readily available to us aam janta.

Just a starting thought. Can certainly be built upon or modified as feasible.
svinayak
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by svinayak »

saadhak wrote:I read somewhere that "The Pakistan-based anti-Indian viewpoint seems to be disproportionally represented on the net". It is true.
They have targeted the credible source of India first. Then they have made sure that most sources of Indian news is non credible. There is systematic and coordinated targeting in the internet.
Prem
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Prem »

Bangladeshi war film Meherjaan rekindles old enmities
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13034953
Sense of injustice
But these explanations have failed to convince her critics in Bangladesh, where issues relating to 1971 are still sensitive. There is a sense of injustice among many Bangladeshis that those responsible for the atrocities have gone unpunished. The film-making world is divided as to whether it was correct to withdraw Meherjaan And those who went through enormous suffering during the war disagree with the way the movie has depicted the events during the war.Ferdousy Priyabhashini, a well-known sculptor, was 23 in 1971 and she says she was repeatedly raped by Pakistani soldiers during the war. She says the movie has undermined the suffering of thousands of rape victims like her. "I am a rape victim and I have gone through lots of humiliation and suffering. My objection to the film is that they have shown a soft corner for the Pakistanis," she says. "There is a silent message in the movie that we can forget about it. This historical sentiment cannot be erased."
Some feel that the time is not yet right to take such a bold step as to show a love affair between a Bengali girl and a Pakistani soldier. But why is the issue still so sensitive?"Pakistan still has not...apologised for the killings of hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshi civilians by its army during the war. Under such circumstances, the making of this film is a bit premature," says eminent writer and director Aly Zaker. Despite his views, Mr Zaker said he did not demand that the movie be withdrawn. Other cultural figures too felt that the screening of the film should have been allowed."Probably the distributors were worried about public sentiment especially when the trial of the alleged war criminals was around the corner," Mr Zaker says.But for now, the supporters of Meherjaan will have to wait before the film hits the cinema screens of Bangladesh again
shiv
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by shiv »

saadhak wrote:I read somewhere that "The Pakistan-based anti-Indian viewpoint seems to be disproportionally represented on the net". It is true.
Certainly fits in with my personal observations
mraghu
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by mraghu »

A good rebuttal to Sarmila Bose's recent article in the EPW site : http://opinion.bdnews24.com/2011/03/14/ ... mila-bose/ , The author got the website to change the article heading to denote the 1971 crackdown was a genocide and not a "civil war" as the pakistanis were suggesting

The original article by Sarmila bose is available at http://epw.in/epw/user/loginArticleErro ... rtid=11475 ( Subscription needed ).
Dipanker
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by Dipanker »

saadhak wrote:I read somewhere that "The Pakistan-based anti-Indian viewpoint seems to be disproportionally represented on the net". It is true.
My experience on the net too. It is obvious from the nature of the content that these are part of a broader propaganda campaign, large share of it borne by Paki Military establishment and ISI.
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by AKalam »

I have always been puzzled by the fact that 90,000 soldiers surrendered after committing a horrible genocide, which I have witnessed with my own eyes and lived through, though at a rather young age, but still old enough to remember. How is it that they got away? Under what conditions? Who were responsible for their freedom? Why we did not conduct trials of the criminals for the crimes they committed? I am not sure if these issues were discussed in BRF before, my guess would be that it was covered before. But may be this is a good thread to revisit these issues. They got away, but if we could send each one of them through some kind of trial, we could probably gather more evidence for the crimes they committed and get much more of a first hand eye witness account of what took place from the perpetrators themselves.

It is already much too late for that to happen although Hasina govt. is trying with its War Crimes Tribunal to go after the old and fading criminals on the BD side, many a times using it as a political weapon against AL opponents. But this should take place IMO, regardless of its political fall outs inside and outside BD, because crimes should not go unpunished

But it will be good, if we could discuss the details of how this thing happened, the escape of the 90,000 criminals, just so we can learn who were responsible to make it happen, and how they went about it using what kind of justifications.

Even from Islamic standpoint, which the Pakistani's follow to some extent when it suits their purpose, they are subject to some jurisprudence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_eye
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas
brihaspati
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Re: Genocide Denial: the war against history

Post by brihaspati »

Akalam bhai,
agree fully. There should have been a kind of "Truth and fact finding commission" that would cover the dead perpetrators too.

The reasons of "suppression" I can postulate are
(1) the technicalities of surrender
(2) possible international pressure and bargaining to preserve Paki H&D
(3) possibility of a "snake while digging for worms" - hints of collusion and collaboration from within powerful and influential sections within BD society
(4) internal factional infighting within AL (for example the meeting with KM in Agartala where Tajuddin declared his presenting himself as the PM at the Delhi conference [together with a currently eminent economist, a barrister,?] and KM's reaction that should have been a warning!)
(5) a possible divided role within the upper echelons of the ertswhile EPR and new BD army
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