Q: There were accusations of collusion between extremists and segments of the Army on your watch, too.
Mushy: The Pashtun and Taliban, they are all look-alikes. They all have beards.They all carry weapons. So who knows which one is a Taliban, and which one is a Pashtun? So this strategy [of allying with some tribal leaders] led to misperceptions in the West that I was double-crossing.
I don't think so Acharya ji. He was sarcastic about it. He was asking if the press wanted to see the photos of war in the past year to believe it. whether it demanded the photos of tens of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani population that were killed in the wars and so on...Acharya wrote:http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/ ... n_feb_test
Ever since Osama bin Laden's death was announced on Sunday night, we've heard a lot of debate over the White House's decision not to release bin Laden death photos. Then, on last night's Daily Show, Jon Stewart weighed in and seemed to be all for showing the photos. His rationale?
, and who knows also their nuke godowns may be... 
Assuming that OBL was living in that safe house since 2005, moving him now would ring alarm bells in OBL's mind. My hunch is that any ISI move to relocate OBL would trigger his instincts cause the plan to fail.Rudradev wrote: BUT BUT BUT... if Pakistan AGREED to let the US snatch OBL, why did they not bargain for a more H&D-saving facade? Why did they not insist that OBL be "found in the border regions of Afghanistan" rather than the very embarrassing location of Abbotabad? Why did they not angle for more recognition of their cooperative role so that they could get generous baksheesh in reward from the US Congress? Why did they submit to a raid that makes them look so very bad, in terms of H&D, and in terms of casting suspicion on their role in harbouring OBL all these years? Why did they let SEALS cart away incriminating evidence from the location instead of delivering Bin Laden to the Americans on their own terms?
There is only one possible answer: the Pakis may have agreed to let the US snatch OBL on such humiliating terms because... the only alternative available to the Pakis was WORSE. Unkil has something so damaging to the Pakis, that he was able to threaten them with it, and dictate the terms of how the OBL raid was going to go... or else.
(CNN) -- Al Qaeda released a statement on jihadist forums Friday confirming the death of its leader, Osama bin Laden, according to SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors Islamist websites.
The development comes days after U.S. troops killed bin Laden in a raid on a compound in the Pakistani city of Abbottabad.
The statement, translated by SITE, lauded the late militant, threatened to take action against the United States, and urged Pakistanis to "rise up and revolt."
Bin Laden's death will serve as a "curse that chases the Americans and their agents, and goes after them inside and outside their countries," the message said.
"Soon -- with help from Allah -- their happiness will turn into sorrow, and their blood will be mixed with their tears," it said.
The statement said al Qaeda will "continue on the path of jihad, the path walked upon by our leaders ... without hesitation or reluctance."
"We will not deviate from that or change until Allah judges between us and between our enemy with truth. Indeed, He is the best of all judges. Nothing will harm us after that, until we see either victory and success and conquest and empowerment, or we die trying."
It said that Americans "will never enjoy security until our people in Palestine enjoy it."
"The soldiers of Islam, groups and individuals, will continue planning without tiredness or boredom, and without despair or surrender, and without weakness or stagnancy, until they cause the disaster that makes children look like the elderly!"
It urged Pakistanis "to cleanse this shame that has been attached to them by a clique of traitors and thieves" and "from the filth of the Americans who spread corruption in it."
Bin Laden and other militants used the Internet to post messages to their followers before and after al Qaeda's September, 11, 2001 attack on the United States.
Luckily for the US and unluckily for Al Qaeda the Seals decided to kill Osama ******Mr Panetta also revealed it was the Navy Seals themselves who made the final decision to kill the Al Qaeda leader, rather than Mr Obama.
This is Unkil ka chootiy@p@; basically trying to send a message to India 'hey look we can do this for we are professionals, don't try this on your own'.longtimelurker wrote:Imagine what would have happened if Paki truely didn't know and made a spur of momemt decision that it was India attacking and threw nuclear bomb!
The fact that it was a risky mission (landing in that compound in pitch darkness) is indicated by the helo crash. And why send (and risk exposing) their latest helo. They could have sent the usual Blackhawks. Far too many holes in that theory. Any further theories built up on the basis of that will be resting on this very shaky foundation. Very similar to what Babur had towards the Indian Sub-continent; he hated India and loved the Central Asians regions, yet he was drawn to the riches and the land.Rudradev wrote:It goes back to the Arab Ghazi psyche.
To people like OBL, disputes like Kashmir are beneath contempt for an organization of Al-Qaeda's scope and ambition. They are squabbles between lesser beings, not worthy of his time or effort.
Muppala garu, I think this whole Paki Aid is a money laundering business. I am glad Rudradev ji made a reference to BCCI. Some of those transactions were yet to be traced...Muppalla wrote:Another thought:
US want Pak and Pak makes money from US. This is known to BRF. In this event, Obama desperately wanted OBL and they have identified where he is. Pak is ready to sell but were aprehensive of the impact of "sell off" inside TSPA and also various terror shops (Talibs, LeT, HUM etc.) that they run. Based on the lessons learnt form Lal Masjid fiasco, both of them decided to make it pure uncle only affair. All the pomp and show is only to prove the same. It is win-win for both uncle and TSP. TSPA is making all the noises of soverignity attack etc and uncle is making all the noise of double-game. Noise will subside and will be back to normal work.
+1Muppalla wrote: Rudradev, it was a beautiful post on BRF after a long while. We should keep it part of FAQ thread to feed this as a lesson to Newbies.
Shiv jishiv wrote:Personally I find it difficult to believe that the Pakis "gave up" bin Laden.
What have they got for it? Ridicule, suspicion and contempt. Recent videos of the corpse kamandu's meeting show all of them looking more morose than I have ever seen them.
Of course it may be said that good things are in store for them in future. But the good things would have come anyway for cooperating. Why put them through this insult? The Pakis in view had absolutely no intention of giving up Osama on the day he was taken.
shiv wrote:Personally I find it difficult to believe that the Pakis "gave up" bin Laden.
What have they got for it? Ridicule, suspicion and contempt. Recent videos of the corpse kamandu's meeting show all of them looking more morose than I have ever seen them.
Of course it may be said that good things are in store for them in future. But the good things would have come anyway for cooperating. Why put them through this insult? The Pakis in view had absolutely no intention of giving up Osama on the day he was taken.
Unless they were forced to choose between "Osama" and "Crown Jewels".shiv wrote:Personally I find it difficult to believe that the Pakis "gave up" bin Laden.
.....
The Pakis in view had absolutely no intention of giving up Osama on the day he was taken.
Moi hunch...SwamyG wrote: Also, if India is just a push-over and does not matter in anybody's equation, why wage the jihad as per your points 11 and 12? To just snatch J&K away? Isn't a large Islamic territory being formed consisting of Afg, Pak & our state of J&K? Why would anybody think this entity can be trusted to behave the way they want against a weak India a far away China and ailing Russia?
wtf!npr (inskeep): Were you aware that OBL was living in Obattabad when you were the president?
musharraf: ...blab.. you see nobody can be aware what would happen. see 911 happened without Bush knowing it!
A similar concept has been detailed in the book 'Breaking India', though it does not state anything about Mughalistan or a subcontinental Islamic arc staring down PRC (although that would be one of the significant utilities of such an arc).RamaY wrote:
Imagine somehow Khalistan and independent (not Paki owned) JK are formed. The next phase would be a deoband movement (remember the calls for a political party for minorities?) in UP & Bihar.
Now you have an Islamic Arc cutting India down and facing PRC. Similar to another Arc in ME.
Thier new Editor is a citizen of a foreign country, why do you think just because a paper is printed in India, thier loyalties are towards India?Sam wrote:Beats me why an Indian newspapers published this?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 994136.ece
Speculative writing about how things should have been...........People not well informed of ground realities often write like this and The Hindu is known for being a tangential newspaper that puts forth such articles. it might appeal to sympathisers as a great article, but this is the point, to differ always attracts welcome comments from sympathisers.Sam wrote:Beats me why an Indian newspapers published this?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 994136.ece
Freedom speech and all that aside, imo Indian media should not appear to be sympathetic to the enemy (Pakistan).Aditya_V wrote:Thier new Editor is a citizen of a foreign country, why do you think just because a paper is printed in India, thier loyalties are towards India?
It is a pity many MPTPs want him alive!Sam wrote:Beats me why an Indian newspapers published this?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 994136.ece.
Pakistan-US: In an official statement on 5 May, the Pakistan Army announced that US military personnel in Pakistan will be cut to the "minimum essential" levels. It also warned that if the United States conducts another raid similar to the one that led to Usama bin Laden's death, the Pakistan Army and intelligence agencies will review their ties with Washington.
Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir said that any attempts by any country to mimic the US raid on Pakistani soil that resulted in the death of Usama bin Laden will "result in a terrible catastrophe." Bashir said Pakistan has the capacity to protect itself and that the US helicopters managed to evade Pakistani radars (sic.). Bashir specifically mentioned remarks from Indian military officials discussing mounting such a raid, calling them a concerning attempt to subvert the agenda of Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
{So a Paki is warning Indian military not to undermine the Indian PM's initiative? Has he considered that Indian military never speaks without the politician's overt/covert assent unlike in TPS?}
Military deliberations. Pakistani military officials discussed the US raid in Abbottabad and its implications for US-Pakistani military-to-military relations during the Corps Commanders' Conference, chaired by Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Kayani, the Inter-Services Press Relations department said on 5 May.
The conference admitted shortcomings in developing intelligence on Usama bin Laden's presence in the country but emphasized that the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate's achievements against al Qaida and others were unmatched; approximately 100 senior al Qaeda leaders or operators have been captured or killed by the ISI, with or without CIA support. The CIA developed intelligence on bin Laden based on initial information from the ISI, but it did not share additional information on the case, the statement said. An investigation of the circumstances that led to this situation has been ordered.
Comment: By far the most damaging and disconcerting ripple effect of the Abbottabad raid for the Pakistani security elite is its exposure of basic Pakistani military vulnerabilities to the Indians, as well as to the rest of the world. A few points need stress.
Pakistan fundamentally is and has always been a military state. Civilian elected government is a thin veneer that wears away quickly. The pillar of the state is the Pakistan Army, but it has been humiliated and bested by 79 or so - the number seems to keep changing - US Navy SEALs.
The tone and substance of the comments above indicate Pakistan considers this a traitorous act, a betrayal by an ally, in the face of the Indian enemy. For Pakistan Army corps commanders the US raid exposes a potentially existential, strategic weakness. Instead of being grateful, they are angry and vindictive.
That anger explains the ultimatum language in the Army and Foreign Secretary's statements. Some of the bluster is for public consumption, but the core is genuine. This is a watershed development that will not be forgiven or forgotten. China will be the beneficiary of Pakistani military anger at the US, over the mid term.
{Not really. US can still force them into obediance. PRC doesnt have that strength nor economic muscle for US can have defacto QE3.}
The irony of the corps commanders' outrage is that this is not the first time they and their leaders have come up short, but it is the most sensational. These guardians of Pakistan's patrimony failed to match Indian war preparations in 2002, twice, after Pakistani-based terrorists attacked the Indian parliament in December 2001.
General Kayani's primary mission was to restore respect for the Pakistan armed forces, after the years of politicization and decline under Musharraf's leadership of the armed forces and the country. The US raid showed Kayani has succeeded in rebuilding public admiration for the forces, but that it might not be merited. Pakistan's defense forces pose no challenge to a world class attacker, which India is rapidly becoming, far surpassing Pakistan.
It seems important to note that bin Laden in Abbottabad posed no direct threat to Pakistan. That is obvious from the length of time he resided there. The exposure of strategic vulnerabilities to India is a far more pressing worry for Pakistani leaders.
Internal security. Pakistani security forces will launch a massive search operation in Quetta and tribal areas of North Waziristan to capture Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar or al Qaida senior leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, according to top government sources in Islamabad, The News reported on 5 May. According to the sources, Islamabad wants to make sure neither Mullah Omar nor al-Zawahiri are hiding in Pakistan and if they are, to capture them before the United States can embarrass Pakistan again.
Comment: The most important psychological effect of the bin Laden raid on a variety of anti-government leaders resident in Pakistan is the heightened sense of vulnerability. If Pakistan lives up to today's pledge, then the combined pressure of the US and Pakistan will have "poisoned the host," meaning the anti-government leaders will have no safe place to hide.
The announcement above is not an epiphany but damage control. It is bad news for Mullah Omar, Hekmatyar and Haqqani, if Pakistan lives up to its promise. The one suspicious omission in the announcement is mention of Karachi, major portions of which are under Sharia and populated by Pashtuns. Two years ago, Mullah Omar and his shura were reported to have moved to Karachi from Quetta. Mention of Karachi would have made the announcement seem more sincere.
Pakistan-US: The United States does not possess "definitive evidence" that Pakistan was aware of Usama bin Laden's presence, but Islamabad must do more to show its commitment to defeating al Qaida, US Undersecretary of Defense Michele Flournoy said 5 May.
For example, Pakistan could help exploit materials collected during the raid on bin Laden's compound, Flournoy said. She said there was an opportunity to make further gains against al Qaida. Previously scheduled meetings at the Pentagon with a Pakistani delegation still occurred on 2 and 3 May, Flournoy said. In those sessions, Flournoy said she made clear that the U.S. Congress would be increasingly skeptical about continuing to give Pakistan billions of dollars in aid.
Special Comment: No news services have recalled that the events involving bin Laden's sanctuary in Pakistan all occurred during Musharraf's tenure, the Chief of Army Staff and later President-General. His military background was well-rounded, but he prides himself as the former commander of the Pakistan Army Special Services Group, the special forces.
Musharraf has a history of clever ruses and dangerous initiatives. He brought Pakistan to the brink of war with India in 1999 over Kargil, trying to steal a march on India during the winter.
Later that year he overthrew the elected government of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, when the chief executive attempted to replace Musharraf as Chief of the Army Staff for the Kargil fiasco. He also was deeply and continuously involved in supporting the Taliban regime of Mullah Omar, reportedly, in exchange for an agreement that Afghanistan would serve as Pakistan's strategic rear in a potential fight with India.
As a matter speculation, Musharraf is clever enough to have not informed ISI Directorate of any black bag deals he arranged with bin Laden and the Taliban, who obtained safe haven in Pakistan when the US attacked in 2001. There are several intelligence and security bureaux, including the military intelligence branch in the Army and Pakistan's premier domestic intelligence agency, the Intelligence Bureau, which is subordinate to the Chief Executive. In any of these, Musharraf could have created special arrangements for supporting terrorists, without necessarily involving ISI Directorate.
{Cover for ISI in the above comment. So their ties run deep!}
Consequently, active ISI Directorate officers genuinely might not know about arrangements for providing hospitality and protection to bin Laden, Mullah Omar and others because the responsibility for tracking them inside Pakistan would fall to the Intelligence Bureau. During the time bin Laden was in Pakistan and during Musharraf's tenure, the Intelligence Bureau had seven directors. All must be brought in for questioning.
In Abbottabad, the first people who should be investigated are the local police. In most countries, the local police station maintains a register of the names, number and gender of every resident in every house in the jurisdiction. Every person who speaks a foreign tongue, every foreigner in particular, would be checked every day and his or her location noted and dated in the police station. In Indonesia, for example, this was done by hand on a chalk board, even in the most remote jungle districts of the Celebes.
Four points are clear. Pakistan is much more concerned about India than about internal terrorism or the Taliban in Afghanistan. Pakistan has many alternatives to the ISI Directorate for managing clandestine arrangements with terrorists. The Intelligence Bureau must be investigated. The timing of all known clandestine arrangements falls within Musharraf's tenure.
er - that is an anti-US article wriitten by some chap in Britain. The word India does not occur even once in the article. A whole lot of anti-India articles appear in the international press including America. The appearance of an anti-US article in an Indian portal should not be much of a problem. Is there a great need to protect Amrikas izzat? Or is this just and example of misplaced MUTU?Aditya_V wrote:Thier new Editor is a citizen of a foreign country, why do you think just because a paper is printed in India, thier loyalties are towards India?Sam wrote:Beats me why an Indian newspapers published this?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/a ... 994136.ece
And the burial at sea meaning taking Osama in the submarine that docked in Goa, its possibleIn the Wolf Blitzer interview, he almost blurts 'India' while talking about the returning US choppers. It is possible he knows that they ended up in India and from there to the US carrier. Just a theory. Would be interesting if others could hear what I think I heard.
The surprise is that we have the capacity for surprise at this response.SaiK wrote:wtf!npr (inskeep): Were you aware that OBL was living in Obattabad when you were the president?
musharraf: ...blab.. you see nobody can be aware what would happen. see 911 happened without Bush knowing it!