Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2012 21:38

while the new eqpt is purchased through Rosboronexport on a govt to govt basis (all Rus arms industry is state owned), the hunt for spares and mig21 kit through the boneyards of eastern europe and CAR involved pvt parties I think. the putting of tender for IL76 upkeep also indicates Ilyushin is unable to provider OEM support?

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 29 Jan 2012 23:01

GD, I thought all those smaller eastern EU companies are mostly state owned? Is there a mid-size private defense company in eastern block that does international business?

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 30 Jan 2012 12:21

Audi looks to enter Indian armoured car mkt with A8 L Security

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 30 Jan 2012 12:27

Admins please move this if required.

India-Israel Defense Ties to Increase

Israel will soon be helping India combat Maoist insurgency and terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir and in the north-east. Talks are on between India and Israel about procurement of high quality body armour for India's paramilitary forces deployed for counter-terror and counter-militancy operations, according to official sources.

If the deal is through, Israeli defence firms will be supplying at least 5,00,000 Level IV body armors and helmets for India's six paramilitary forces other than to many state governments which are also dealing directly with Israeli companies to equip their police forces combating armed left-wing Naxalite guerrillas. "The usual process is to acquire these bullet resistance body armors through tenders and that is why the procurement is being delayed. No government will dare to directly place the order though Israeli body armours and helmets are the best in the world", said a senior Home Ministry official. "The Maharashtra government is already through with its tender process and an Israeli company is likely to get the order. Similarly, many other state governments are also in various stages to finalize deals with Israeli firms. But as far as the Union home ministry is concerned, we will procure through a global tender and Israeli or U.S. companies are likely to bag the orders,"he said on condition of anonymity.

All along paramilitary forces were authorized "bullet proof jackets" but now even the parliamentary committee on home affairs have recommended Level IV "bullet resistance jackets"to replace the Level III jackets which are inferior and cannot resist bullets fired from AK-47 rifles.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 30 Jan 2012 13:05

Kailash wrote:Audi looks to enter Indian armoured car mkt with A8 L Security

Can SDREs be good "transporters"?

wig · Post by **wig** » 30 Jan 2012 13:19

some local innovations are implemented to rectify problems in T-90’s night vision devices

A small innovation will go a long way in giving the Army’s T-90 main battle tanks the ability to hunt and kill in the dark - and at a fraction of the cost of imported equipment. Army engineers have integrated locally made LCD monitors to replace malfunctioning imported gadgets.

A major problem with the T-90’s imported night sight was that its visual video display (VVD) unit was not ruggedised and, hence, defect prone. This resulted in the tank becoming night-blind. This was particularly the case in the hot and dusty environs of the desert.

LCD display units of the requisite size available off-the-shelf commercially have been used to replace the VVDs. According to available information, the TFT screens are available for just about Rs 3,500 as compared to a staggering Rs 25 lakh for the imported units.

The biggest challenge for Army engineers undertaking the project, according to armoured corps officers, was integrating the LCD screens with the sight’s sensors and electrical systems as well as physical dimensions.

The T-90 tanks are the Army’s latest acquisition and have been inducted into frontline formations. In today’s battlefield, the ability to fight at night is crucial and most of the earlier generation tanks with the Army, including the T-72, lacked this capability.

The Army had bought 310 T-90 tanks, some of which were assembled locally at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi. This was followed by two more contracts in 2006 and 2007 for assembly and licenced manufacture of 330 and 347 upgraded versions of the tank, respectively. The Army has planned to equip 21 regiments with the T-90.

While the T-90 tanks have been in service for about a decade, there have been some reports of malfunctioning or non-availability of certain electronic equipment, including those required for night or adverse weather operations. The non-availability of ammunition for its 125 mm main gun was also an issue some time ago.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120130/nation.htm#11

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 30 Jan 2012 13:25

wig wrote:some local innovations are implemented to rectify problems in T-90’s night vision devices

A small innovation will go a long way in giving the Army’s T-90 main battle tanks the ability to hunt and kill in the dark - and at a fraction of the cost of imported equipment. Army engineers have integrated locally made LCD monitors to replace malfunctioning imported gadgets.

A major problem with the T-90’s imported night sight was that its visual video display (VVD) unit was not ruggedised and, hence, defect prone. This resulted in the tank becoming night-blind. This was particularly the case in the hot and dusty environs of the desert.

LCD display units of the requisite size available off-the-shelf commercially have been used to replace the VVDs. According to available information, the TFT screens are available for just about Rs 3,500 as compared to a staggering Rs 25 lakh for the imported units.

The biggest challenge for Army engineers undertaking the project, according to armoured corps officers, was integrating the LCD screens with the sight’s sensors and electrical systems as well as physical dimensions.

The T-90 tanks are the Army’s latest acquisition and have been inducted into frontline formations. In today’s battlefield, the ability to fight at night is crucial and most of the earlier generation tanks with the Army, including the T-72, lacked this capability.

The Army had bought 310 T-90 tanks, some of which were assembled locally at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi. This was followed by two more contracts in 2006 and 2007 for assembly and licenced manufacture of 330 and 347 upgraded versions of the tank, respectively. The Army has planned to equip 21 regiments with the T-90.

While the T-90 tanks have been in service for about a decade, there have been some reports of malfunctioning or non-availability of certain electronic equipment, including those required for night or adverse weather operations. The non-availability of ammunition for its 125 mm main gun was also an issue some time ago.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120130/nation.htm#11

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 30 Jan 2012 13:32

wig wrote:some local innovations are implemented to rectify problems in T-90’s night vision devices

A small innovation will go a long way in giving the Army’s T-90 main battle tanks the ability to hunt and kill in the dark - and at a fraction of the cost of imported equipment. Army engineers have integrated locally made LCD monitors to replace malfunctioning imported gadgets.

A major problem with the T-90’s imported night sight was that its visual video display (VVD) unit was not ruggedised and, hence, defect prone. This resulted in the tank becoming night-blind. This was particularly the case in the hot and dusty environs of the desert.

LCD display units of the requisite size available off-the-shelf commercially have been used to replace the VVDs. According to available information, the TFT screens are available for just about Rs 3,500 as compared to a staggering Rs 25 lakh for the imported units.

The biggest challenge for Army engineers undertaking the project, according to armoured corps officers, was integrating the LCD screens with the sight’s sensors and electrical systems as well as physical dimensions.

The T-90 tanks are the Army’s latest acquisition and have been inducted into frontline formations. In today’s battlefield, the ability to fight at night is crucial and most of the earlier generation tanks with the Army, including the T-72, lacked this capability.

The Army had bought 310 T-90 tanks, some of which were assembled locally at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi. This was followed by two more contracts in 2006 and 2007 for assembly and licenced manufacture of 330 and 347 upgraded versions of the tank, respectively. The Army has planned to equip 21 regiments with the T-90.

While the T-90 tanks have been in service for about a decade, there have been some reports of malfunctioning or non-availability of certain electronic equipment, including those required for night or adverse weather operations. The non-availability of ammunition for its 125 mm main gun was also an issue some time ago.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2012/20120130/nation.htm#11

Another example of how half-baked Russian products are bought to the detriment of indigenous equipment, which are not only superior, but more value for money. First the gun and now this. When are these dinosaurs that occupy SOME positions in the Army going to learn that foreign doesn't automatically mean better? I just hope these people retire as soon as possible (instead of our current Army chief).

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 30 Jan 2012 18:25

^^^

Any and every time a competitive Indian product exists it will be chosen. Any and every time a product can be MKIzed (as in the above) it will be done.

Blaming "some" in IA is nice, but quite fuzzy, and entirely meaningless.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Jan 2012 17:42

Sanku wrote:^^^

Any and every time a competitive Indian product exists it will be chosen. Any and every time a product can be MKIzed (as in the above) it will be done.

Blaming "some" in IA is nice, but quite fuzzy, and entirely meaningless.

Man, some people can always land on their feet. Now we have a new euphemism "MKIzation." If this was voluntarily done in order to improve on an already functioning component, I would buy that argument, but since its replacing something that doesn't work or wasn't supplied, I would hardly call it MKIzation. As for fuzzy remarks, I think we all know who I mean (I don't intend to go into specifics or get into a protracted argument, I know I don't stand a chance

).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2012 20:21

if they are using 3500 Rs LCD panels means just the basic samtel rugged lcd monitors of smaller than desktop size.
must be one of these
http://www.samteldisplays.com/?page=rlcd

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Jan 2012 23:45

Arun Menon wrote: If this was voluntarily done in order to improve on an already functioning component, I would buy that argument,

Yes it was to improve a already working component, about 10 years after the component was first made available too.

Thank you for open mindedness.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Feb 2012 00:04

Sanku wrote:
Arun Menon wrote: If this was voluntarily done in order to improve on an already functioning component, I would buy that argument,
Yes it was to improve a already working component, about 10 years after the component was first made available too.

Thank you for open mindedness.

You get an A+ for spin there. But the article clearly mentions that the components were rendering the tanks night blind. If that is a
already functioning" component, I am not sure what a non-functioning component would be.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Feb 2012 00:29

nachiket wrote:
Sanku wrote:"Arun Menon">>
If this was voluntarily done in order to improve on an already functioning component, I would buy that argument,

Yes it was to improve a already working component, about 10 years after the component was first made available too.

Thank you for open mindedness.
You get an A+ for spin there. But the article clearly mentions that the components were rendering the tanks night blind. If that is a
already functioning" component, I am not sure what a non-functioning component would be.

That is incorrect. The components were not rendering the tanks night blind. The tanks would go night blind IF AND WHEN the components would not work.

When would components not work? Some of the times.

Are components not working some of the times unusual -- no; all components have down time.

Can the down times be improved -- yes they can be -- and this is the case.

------------------

Quite simple engineering and improvement. All good, and all +ve. Nothing to fret about.

------------------

We would be quite right to fret IF the tank manufacturers blocked such attempts through legal sanctions and such like (like with US ware) -- since its not done, its quite the case of MKIzation.

Thank you, over and out and good night.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Feb 2012 00:30

nachiket they were working (maybe 2 out of 100)

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 01 Feb 2012 00:33

Am I dizzy here, or is the BR board spinning..

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Feb 2012 00:35

Surya wrote:

nachiket they were working (maybe 2 out of 100)

I give up. When it comes to the T-90, nothing short of the tank spontaneously blowing up would count as a failure in the eyes of some. Philip saar might not find even that to be a problem

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2012 03:10

Arun Menon wrote: Man, some people can always land on their feet. Now we have a new euphemism "MKIzation." If this was voluntarily done in order to improve on an already functioning component, I would buy that argument, but since its replacing something that doesn't work or wasn't supplied, I would hardly call it MKIzation. As for fuzzy remarks, I think we all know who I mean (I don't intend to go into specifics or get into a protracted argument, I know I don't stand a chance ).

It is not over ................ yet.

True MKIzation will be when the IL-476 comes and India will have to use Bata shoe laces to hang 8 Kaveri engines to make it work. (Shortage of emoticons, so will not embed any.)

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 01 Feb 2012 07:29

^ Bata is a Czech brand

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 08:03

damn I thought it was canadian!

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Feb 2012 08:23

That is incorrect. The components were not rendering the tanks night blind. The tanks would go night blind IF AND WHEN the components would not work.

When would components not work? Some of the times.

Are components not working some of the times unusual -- no; all components have down time.

Can the down times be improved -- yes they can be -- and this is the case.

Damn, am sure Rosobonexport folks are monitoring this thread so that these kind of gems can be thrown at the next customer who complains about some defective piece for which he had paid with his hard earned money!!

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 01 Feb 2012 09:02

sum wrote:

That is incorrect. The components were not rendering the tanks night blind. The tanks would go night blind IF AND WHEN the components would not work.

When would components not work? Some of the times.

Are components not working some of the times unusual -- no; all components have down time.

Can the down times be improved -- yes they can be -- and this is the case.
Damn, am sure Rosobonexport folks are monitoring this thread so that these kind of gems can be thrown at the next customer who complains about some defective piece for which he had paid with his hard earned money!!

Of course these 'arguments' would not hold in the case of Arjun. One would then quote a 1998 CAG report about how much 'downtime' the Arjun was having at the time and hence ordering T-90s were a necessity, as were the follow-on orders of a 1000 more

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 10:41

sum wrote:Damn, am sure Rosobonexport folks are monitoring this thread so that these kind of gems can be thrown at the next customer who complains about some defective piece for which he had paid with his hard earned money!!

Oh no! They will say that the customer is a moron and their tanks are from mars. Then they will take out a super duper video, explaining the prowess of some paper upgrades and send it to the customer.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Feb 2012 11:28

damn I thought it was canadian!

It is. Founded by Czech immigrants

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Feb 2012 12:18

Yes, let have numbers please, and comparative data too, otherwise no ranting and allegations.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 01 Feb 2012 13:09

Sanku wrote:Yes, let have numbers please, and comparative data too, otherwise no ranting and allegations.

heh heh - how about a 72 % failure rate for the tincans? but you just have to trust my mysterious sources

Now where have we heard this before? I wonder.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Feb 2012 13:56

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:Yes, let have numbers please, and comparative data too, otherwise no ranting and allegations.

heh heh - how about a 72 % failure rate for the tincans? but you just have to trust my mysterious sources Now where have we heard this before? I wonder.

Oh musharaff numbers dont count. Thats the basic. I forgot to mention, I thought all will get the obvious.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 02 Feb 2012 05:12

Sanku wrote:
Oh musharaff numbers dont count. Thats the basic. I forgot to mention, I thought all will get the obvious.

Saar then obviously you don't hold yourself to your standards

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Feb 2012 21:02

arnab wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Oh musharaff numbers dont count. Thats the basic. I forgot to mention, I thought all will get the obvious.
Saar then obviously you don't hold yourself to your standards

My dear chap, I dont think you really understand what is being talked about in the first place. Why keep making silly flame baits against posters?

You have anything of consequence to add? (Rhetorical question)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2012 21:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0et5e3fG ... re=related

an interesting video. Leo2A6 vs Hummer. as expected the Leo owns the Hummer in crossing vertical, gap and water obstacles.

but it gets real interesting in the end where there is a glass of water balanced on the tip of the cannon and it doesnt spill when it moves x-country, showing the stabilization of the gun and chassis, while the lady spills the water when driving the hummer.

leo:10 hummer:0

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 03 Feb 2012 22:21

^^^

So, the briturds are all gaga about the rifled gun on the challenger

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 04 Feb 2012 03:26

Singha wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0et5e3fG ... re=related

an interesting video. Leo2A6 vs Hummer. as expected the Leo owns the Hummer in crossing vertical, gap and water obstacles.

but it gets real interesting in the end where there is a glass of water balanced on the tip of the cannon and it doesnt spill when it moves x-country, showing the stabilization of the gun and chassis, while the lady spills the water when driving the hummer.

leo:10 hummer:0

The car is a Hummer H2, which is nothing like the original mil-spec Humvee, which is also capable of doing a water crossing. On the other hand, the stabilization bit was pretty amazing.

<OT>That blonde lady is Sabine Schmitz, the Queen of the Nurburgring. Lady used to drive people around the BMW test track in Nurburgring for a living, inside a taxi. She's been on Top Gear quite a few times and once attempted to beat Jeremy Clarkson's time in a Jaguar S type while she was driving a white diesel moving van! She came pretty close to it too and overtook quite a few drivers in TFTA cars and motorcycles in the process

. Incidentally, she's rumored to be Top Gear's new Stig!</OT>

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Feb 2012 12:20

I agree with Sanku.One must back up where poss. official/media reports where to get a clearer picture.Let's say I confess that I have a problem when "on the throne" (I don't) ! Every morning, or once a week,month,year....? It makes a lot of difference.Secondly,a decade is along time especially in the world of electronics .We are seeing digital tech innovating at hyper speed.Only a few years ago,flat screen TVs were a rarity,film cameras were still very popular,professionals sneered at digital cameras.These days you can't even buy film! Kodak,of all companies has collapsed! So replacing a ruggedised mil-spec std. components with a COTS product as is taking place all over the world,is bringing down costs considerably on the one hand,but other factors are raising costs elsewhere.A decade ago,as some BR veterans will remember,we were shown a particular piece of naval eqpt./console, and told that it cost 2.5 cr.! I seriously wonder how much a similar piece would cost today.When did you last change your fancy cell phone...and at what price?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2012 13:46

the mil spec hummer can allegedly climb a vertical 90' step obstacle of height 24" so it could likely have climbed that and crossed the water using the exhaust pipe at roof level thing.

but the gap obstacle it could not take on...it would fall right in....a tatra can do it though. the tatras pretty much operate like a tank and cross the same type of stuff all the wheels are independent suspension like road wheels of a tank. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHaj5bDSgRA

tatra will crush the mil spec hummer x-country

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Feb 2012 18:45

our ahuja sahab is going to buy one this month. (hummer, not leo)

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 04 Feb 2012 19:43

Our trusty Stallion can also go up vertically.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Feb 2012 21:17

stallion is good for its role, but lacks the independent half axles of the tatras....which gives tatra a smoother ride across really harsh terrain.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 04 Feb 2012 21:35

But its cost effective.It's like comparing INSAS to TAR-21.
Good point though.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Feb 2012 12:50

I am not criticising the stallion...its certainly good enough for 95% of what we need to do. I hope they use this platform for creative things like radarEO+SPAAG , 105mm truck gun etc.

Reddy · Post by **Reddy** » 05 Feb 2012 13:52

Singha wrote:stallion is good for its role, but lacks the independent half axles of the tatras....which gives tatra a smoother ride across really harsh terrain.

My limited understanding of offroad vehicles says, swing axle has nothing to do with smooth ride. One advantage i can think of is better road clearance and more wheel travel, ergo better traction on very uneven surfaces. On the negative side it wears tyres unevenly and it is a pain to change the wheels if you have a flat.