Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - Jan 12, 2012

[Sanku]

So Russians have given up on the T-90, and we are ordering less Arjun which did better in the face off with the T-90 last year. The T-90 might be a good Tank, but I feel Arjun should be better and needs orders of at least 500, the pro import lobby in Delhi notwithstanding.

I would like to point out that the Russian tank is their FMBT, which will be seen in service (if at all) starting not before 2020. They can not go for T 90 right now even if they want, since they first have to rationalize their current tank fleet and bring it down to the levels they can operate in the money they have.

Even then it is not clear whether and when and what will be their FMBT, there have been no shortages of prototypes, plans and projections over last 10 years, none of which have really materialized. Therefore, the above news is to be taken in context that it may yet be nothing but a false alarm.

In contrast, in India T 90 fits the front line in 2000-2020 time frame (during this time T 72s are second line) and Arjun Mk I/II/II will see the 2010-20xx time frames.

[pralay]

Armata instead of T-90

Looks like the Army can now make the FMBT specifications

[Nihat]

Armata instead of T-90

This is just brilliant, the russians are not interested in the T-90 anymore but we are going to end up with with a jumbo fleet. I'm aware that this has been mentioned several times but what is wrong with our policy makers , especially given that a more than credible home grown option is available now.

If and when shit hits the fan and we are pushed into a military offensive with either tsp, china or both then such decisions Will have a huge impact especially when our offensive doctrines are so army centric.

[Singha]

I can easily predict there will be issues with T90 spares and engines going ahead, as we are the sole major user in the world and all such parts cannot be pindigenized economically.

with merkava style engine front layout, and a huge turret, the armata will likely atleast be in Leclerc 55t territory.

so much for the 45-50t FMBT

[Sanku]

I can easily predict there will be issues with T90 spares and engines going ahead, as we are the sole major user in the world and all such parts cannot be pindigenized economically.

That should not be the case, the entire supply chain is now with Avadi.

[Sanku]

Armata instead of T-90

This is just brilliant, the russians are not interested in the T-90 anymore but we are going to end up with with a jumbo fleet. I'm aware that this has been mentioned several times but what is wrong with our policy makers , especially given that a more than credible home grown option is available now.

You do realize that you are faulting a 7 year old decision based on a "rumor of a development" now?

We dont even know if the Russian will ever create or induct that tank in any numbers.

===========================

Which reminds me, just how many Su 30s does Russia operate?

[Sanku]

Armata instead of T-90

Looks like the Army can now make the FMBT specifications

This is a recurring theme across many countries including France. It does appear to be the where the tank design may be headed in general.

Time will tell. The issue is economics for everyone now not tech.

[nachiket]

Which reminds me, just how many Su 30s does Russia operate?

That is irrelevant. There is no indigenous alternative to the Su-30.

[kvraghav]

I can easily predict there will be issues with T90 spares and engines going ahead, as we are the sole major user in the world and all such parts cannot be pindigenized economically.

That should not be the case, the entire supply chain is now with Avadi.

Didnt you once post during the Arjun vs T-90 debate that how Avaidi lacked quality and the T-90 produced by them did not have any such issues because they were assembled and not manufactured? How come now the entire supply chain is with Avaidi and they do not have any QC issues with T-90?

[Baikul]

To join the German versus USSR tanks debate on the previous page, every German author I have read on the subject considers the T-34 an outstanding tank, and when you consider the fact that the classic Tigers were comparatively few and far between owing to production constraints, it is regarded as a better tank than most German counterparts. There's always the possibility of bigging your opponent to enhance your prestige, but I doubt that is the case; the literature is too extensive.

German authors - some tankers- attribute their success to superior tactics. For example, German tank commanders almost always had more intensive training, were given much more freedom to take decisions on the ground, whereas their USSR counterparts were the opposite.. One vignette: Most German tank commanders almost always rode into battle 'shoulders and head up' until the last moment, while the Russians went in hatches battened down and this apparently cost them gravely in terms of battlefield awareness.

[Singha]

Avadi would certainly not be making the engines from scratch aluminium and steel ingots. would not be surprised if the engines are still going to be fully imported with only overhaul here.

[vina]

Didnt you once post during the Arjun vs T-90 debate that how Avaidi lacked quality and the T-90 produced by them did not have any such issues because they were assembled and not manufactured? How come now the entire supply chain is with Avaidi and they do not have any QC issues with T-90?

..Shh.... You are asking logical questions! Off with your head. The Tin Can 90 as the truly anointed prince brooks no questions. And now you are saying the Russians themselves think that it is junk ?

WTF... What the fUrmatal arameteal armeleya.. As sach baron himself says (look up the trailer in Nukkad dhaaga). WTF do the Russians know about fighting wars in the deserts of Rajasthan and Punjab in summer! They only know about Siberian winters! That is why we prize the Tin Cans, while they reject it!

[pralay]

Looks like the Army can now make the FMBT specifications

This is a recurring theme across many countries including France. It does appear to be the where the tank design may be headed in general.
Time will tell. The issue is economics for everyone now not tech.

if its a recurring theme
Why the army can't make specifications for FMBT in 3 years(fourth year is passing away )
or is there no visionary left in Army ?
or are they waiting for some brochures to copy-paste the specifications from

[Sanku]

Which reminds me, just how many Su 30s does Russia operate?

That is irrelevant. There is no indigenous alternative to the Su-30.

Well Arjun is no alternative to T 90 either.

Arjun and T 90 do not compete with each other except on BRF. In reality the plan 50:50 ratio of about 5000 tanks between the two. (of course this will happen in its own sweet time given India)

[Sanku]

That should not be the case, the entire supply chain is now with Avadi.

Didnt you once post during the Arjun vs T-90 debate that how Avaidi lacked quality and the T-90 produced by them did not have any such issues because they were assembled and not manufactured? How come now the entire supply chain is with Avaidi and they do not have any QC issues with T-90?

That is incorrect. There are three streams for T 90s

Fully built from Russia
Assembled in Avadi
Manufactured in Avadi from scratch.

Now in context of Avadi, Avadi makes T 90, assembles T 90s, overhauls T 72s (used to make them earlier) and Arjun's.

Of the QC issues that plague Avadi, are seen in T 72s as well, and are not limited to ONE stream in the above.

Avadi has had QC issues with T 72s too.

What are the reasons of QC issues in Avadi

1) Overall QC issues in manufacturing control (Quality management had been lax)

In addition "specific to Arjun" there were QC issues in the past because

Arjuns manufacturing line was not completely stable, since the manufacturing process for Arjun (!= manufacturing process for T 90) was being developed along with the tank.

I would recommend that you look up the wiki on reliability engineering and manufacturing line design

Added later : T 90 has less of (not zero, since there are many reasons to QC) issues since their manufacturing line was already developed and stable.

[Sanku]

Why the army can't make specifications for FMBT in 3 years(fourth year is passing away )
or is there no visionary left in Army ?
or are they waiting for some brochures to copy-paste the specifications from

They dont have you, you know, you would have provided the vision to come up with a transformer in two hours flat or better.

Since they are all morons who do not know their job, lacking your brilliance, they usually take many years to develop a vision.

This moron-ness in Army is widely shared for example Russia has been trying different ideas for FMBT for about 10 years.

Americans last made a tank in 70s and have not come up with a new vision for a tank in ages.

Pity you cant clone yourself and be present everywhere I say.

[Kailash]

^^^
everything in past tense.. So no prevailing or yet-to-be solved issues? Any information on current QC standards?

[Sanku]

Avadi would certainly not be making the engines from scratch aluminium and steel ingots. would not be surprised if the engines are still going to be fully imported with only overhaul here.

Actually yes it does. There is a engine factory at avadi too. For the T 90 engines.

T 90s are being 100% produced in India, even the electro-optics are domestically done (dont know about the chips and components in those though)

[Sanku]

^^^
everything in past tense.. So no prevailing or yet-to-be solved issues? Any information on current QC standards?

Apparently (and take this with bucket full of salt) the issues at Avadi are all supposedly fixed, at least there are no known boo-boos since 2007 time frame in public news.

However given the long and stellar record of Avadi in terms of QC and adherence to timelines, I would not hold by breath.

[Sanku]

Most German tank commanders almost always rode into battle 'shoulders and head up' until the last moment, while the Russians went in hatches battened down and this apparently cost them gravely in terms of battlefield awareness.

This is actually deeply cultural, the German tank commander fancied themselves as later day Knights riding horses to battle, with the famed, Prussian Junker iron blood lineage.

Unfortunately, this also meant they were also prize target for every "two-bit" sniper from Berlin to Valdivostok and had a heavy officer loss ratio till they wisened up as well.

The Russians were more SDRE and used the tank to save their pathetic skins and all that.

[Sanku]

Also while not so good Col Shukla's attempts to run down everything russian then Indian and build up US stuff (in that order) is well known by now, I am unfortunately quoting him for a data point

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/p ... -t-90.html

Part II: Army’s delayed orders halts T-90 tank

Piecemeal indenting by the military routinely causes production breaks in India’s defence industrial complex, including its defence shipyards and public sector behemoths like Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL). Senior officials in these defence companies that that jerky indenting hinders the smooth planning of production cycles, economic utilization of skilled manpower, and the provision of lead times needed for out-sourcing materials and assemblies from external vendors.

Why did I post it here? Because some people seem to think the piece-meal order for Arjun's in on and off manner is some deep conspiracy against Arjun.

While in reality -- MoD has regularly and as a practice, made equipment acquisition a NIGHTMARE for Army, Air force OFBs and ALL CONCERNED by ad hoc, piecemeal orders, sleeping on the job, deciding that money has run out at last moment, and other such general fun things.

This is a long standing glorious tradition of MoD, I think it makes them feel good about themselves and superior to jerk the Mil-Ind complex about.

[srai]

^^^

It's the Army ordering small quantities irregularly and not the MoD.

[Sanku]

^^^

It's the Army ordering small quantities irregularly and not the MoD.

Sir Army never orders, its always the MoD. Army cant order a truck (rhetorically speaking), their purchase powers are really low (10 cr max in an order?)

All the capital acquisition decisions and such are MoDs, Army only gives them a "wish list".

--------------------------

Thats why I am reluctant to use Col Shukla's material to post, he has a lot of junk in his write ups, something which is OK for DDM but someone like him is expected to know better.

[srai]

^^^

Yes MoD executes the orders ... based on the wish list of the Army. If the army asks for only 300 T-90 or 124 Arjun, MoD will only buy that much.

[Sanku]

^^^

Yes MoD executes the orders ... based on the wish list of the Army. If the army asks for only 300 T-90 or 124 Arjun, MoD will only buy that much.

Sir, Army by and large presents long term acquisition plans much in advance. They typically ask for the moon; and their wish list is met partially after 10 odd years or so. For example Army had been asking for 2000 latest tanks since 1990s, but that wish was only partially met in 2001 and then some more in 2007 and so on and so forth.

Army asks for moon since they know that the Babu's will whittle it down to a pebble anyway so they start big.

Order management is MoDs function, completely.

[chackojoseph]

^^^

It's the Army ordering small quantities irregularly and not the MoD.

MoD orders based on Army's requirements. for T-90 , the order was not piecemeal. It was 300 in onego as Army wanted. On the Avadi production, its going with plans based on Army's re-equipment plans, hence piece meal. Also, the T-90 and Arjun have been ordered piecemeal because of the risk of non delivery. Only thing to be studied is if the second lot order for Arjun Tank was because of the need for ordering more Mk2 at a later stage? As for T-90, the so called 100% indigenised production is not stabilised, no matter what they say. Antony was in Russia few months back for technical meet and T-90 issue was raised there. It was raised the discussion prior to that. So ToT, tooling etc won't be on the shop floor soon. Barrel composition was not given last year, when I spoke.

There might be deviations in orders and IMO not very drastic. the MoD babu in the South wing is bending back to please his customer "Army."

[srai]

^^^
CJ, you are on point. Well put!

[Sanku]

^^^

It's the Army ordering small quantities irregularly and not the MoD.

MoD orders based on Army's requirements.

If only Chacko, if only. (would have added here but you may consider it amiss)

We would have brough 200 Mirages in 2003 rather than perhaps Rafale in 2014.

Army makes plans like "we need x000 new tanks with XYZ features over next T years" -- how that will be broken up into actual orders, how many numbers, in what tranches, under what conditions (FMS, bid etc) are ALL MoD responsibility -- ASSUMING MOD agrees in the first place.

This is know you are India 101 please. Kindly look up MoDs site.

--------------------------

In reality the Babu's in MoD order based on what they think is Army's requirement after Army has done enough of "naak ghisana" (rub their noses on the ground) in front of them.

Isnt Gen VKS saga already a clear example of how power and responsibility exists in our system?

[Sanku]

^^^
CJ, you are on point. Well put!

I am afraid he is wrong.

[Sanku]

[the MoD babu in the South wing is bending back to please his customer "Army."

For this Chacko forgive me but



Babu bending backward for customer Army?



Babu is the overlord, the CIVILIAN CONTROL of all that he surveys, the master of all, answerable to none (well perhaps to the minister, but that too in Greek unless the minister is pushing his career up).

Come on buddy, you need another few years to understand the Indian system.

[member_22539]

Well Arjun is no alternative to T 90 either.

Arjun and T 90 do not compete with each other except on BRF. In reality the plan 50:50 ratio of about 5000 tanks between the two. (of course this will happen in its own sweet time given India)

Do you have any proof for this? (the 50:50 ratio of 5000 tanks)

[Sanku]

Well Arjun is no alternative to T 90 either.

Arjun and T 90 do not compete with each other except on BRF. In reality the plan 50:50 ratio of about 5000 tanks between the two. (of course this will happen in its own sweet time given India)

Do you have any proof for this? (the 50:50 ratio of 5000 tanks)

Yes, had provided links some times before, not sure if I can fish it out again, but basically the statement was based on the statement of --

MoS for Defence production (what Shri Pallamraju does right now) in the NDA (and also UPA I ?) on the floor of the parliament when replying to a query on the plans for Arjun, during a discussion on the report for standing committee for defense.

[Philip]

Mein Gott! Vot a beazt!

Zo,Vere does that leave us? Waiting for Godot.....sorry,Arjun MK-2,and still to propduce the T-90,despite the Armata beast's arrival? The key factor appears to be the cost of the new beast.If it going to be appreciably less than an upgraded T-90 amd ooffers at least an incremental improvement,then not in the too distant future,we will hear of the new beast being "trialled" by the IA.The time to produce "1000 T-90s" by the CVRDE can only be but imagined.It has already a monumental task of upgrading a large stock of older T-72s,and building new Arjuns-MK-2s and T-90s.

[keshavchandra]

Guys There is a bad news, a soldier perched over a T-90 battle tank was killed when its driver lost control and dashed against a concrete structure at CVRDE campus.
One dead in T-90 battle tank accident in Chennai

[Aditya_V]

from the link above

The dead man was identified as Harish. Another source told IANS: “The tanks are parked inside a garage. The vehicle was taken out for a test run when the accident happened. ”It seems one of the steering sticks of the tank got stuck and the driver lost control of the vehicle.”

[chackojoseph]

Babu is the overlord, the CIVILIAN CONTROL of all that he surveys, the master of all, answerable to none (well perhaps to the minister, but that too in Greek unless the minister is pushing his career up).

Come on buddy, you need another few years to understand the Indian system.

I forgive you (as you put it). It actually is working that way. You see, Mirages are not operated by IA. The capital buy decision is taken by cabinet committee. Then it is up to the babu to order it based on Amy's requirement and possible availability. Babu cannot order it without Army requirement put forward. He can't "just" buy whatever and at what time he wants. Just an example, Army said it needs 2 regiments for conversion in 2011. So, babu sends all the requirements to the manufacturer (under condition the number and budget has been approved, else he has to send additional request for permission.).

In past years, the tank procurement business has gone weird. However, the procurement babu for Army has ensured that the desired numbers were given to army in spite of all the problems with ToT, production etc.

added later

srai,

Thanks.

[ramana]

Why were the two persons riding on the outside on the tank while its being tested? Is that normal practice?

[nachiket]

Well Arjun is no alternative to T 90 either.

Arjun and T 90 do not compete with each other except on BRF. In reality the plan 50:50 ratio of about 5000 tanks between the two. (of course this will happen in its own sweet time given India)

Well that is the crux of the argument - The refusal to accept the Arjun as an indigenous alternative to the T-90 despite it passing all the tests. If the army is anyway not going to accept the Arjun as an alternative then all the arguments you and others made about the Army being forced to induct the T-90 because the Arjun wasn't "ready" were really just excuses weren't they?

P.S.: To my knowledge, no one in the army has talked about how many Arjuns they will induct beyond the 248 already contracted, or whether they will induct any at all. Even the army chief when last asked about this, was elusive in his replies. So I don't know where you got the 50:50 ratio from.

[member_22539]

from the link above

The dead man was identified as Harish. Another source told IANS: “The tanks are parked inside a garage. The vehicle was taken out for a test run when the accident happened. ”It seems one of the steering sticks of the tank got stuck and the driver lost control of the vehicle.”

If something like this happened to Arjun, we can be sure that the whole fleet would be grounded for ages and poked and prodded for the minutest defects. I wonder what repercussions (if at all) will be faced by the T-90 Maharaj.

[chackojoseph]

Why were the two persons riding on the outside on the tank while its being tested? Is that normal practice?

Could be for QC purposes. Its a test drive.