Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 09 Feb 2012 09:34

Eurofighter may revise bid MoD declines comment: Gerald Howarth
Business Standard: Ajai Shukla - Interview with Minister for International Security Strategy, UK

The British media has slammed India’s choice of the French Rafale over the Eurofighter Typhoon. Does London feel hard done by?
We would be less than human if we were not disappointed. We believe the Typhoon is the best aircraft, which already has service in six countries. No overseas customer has bought the Rafale so far. I understand that Rafale was L-1 (the lowest bidder) only on price (sic). If the decision turned only on price, Cassidian (the military arm of EADS) will put in a revised price offer. The four nations (UK, Germany, Italy and Spain) can produce a winning financial proposal and I fully expect that Cassidian will be doing that.

Would this happen soon?
The details of the fresh price proposal are being developed as we speak, and a final decision will soon be taken.

Have you asked New Delhi for permission to bid afresh?
As our prime minister said in the House of Commons last week, we shall continue to present the case for the Typhoon. We believe that getting the best value for money would be in the best interests of the government of India. But it is not for us to suggest what New Delhi should do. (Note: Asked whether a fresh Cassidian bid would be accepted, the ministry of defence declined to comment)

The French president says British defence manufacturing is dead?
It is interesting that he should say that when we have exported the Typhoon to two countries already, Saudi Arabia and Austria. Now Oman has issued an RfP (enquiry) and we believe they would soon purchase the Typhoon. But France has been unable to persuade anybody to buy their aircraft, which we believe was rejected here two years ago. The UK is the second-largest defence exporter, has a vibrant aerospace industry, and a world-class automotive industry. So the (French) president’s remarks were inaccurate. We know he is pretty desperate, given his elections this spring. We think his statement is an example of Gallic hyperbole.

Will Britain’s defence industry be hit hard by India’s Rafale decision?
Had India selected the Typhoon as L-1, it would have had a favourable impact on the defence industry in the UK, Germany, Italy and Spain. But we are already working on substantial overseas orders. Typhoon is a continuing programme, whereas the French have slowed down production since their only customer was the French Air Force. But buyers all across Europe are cutting down on defence purchases… including the Typhoon. The Eurofighter partners are all contractually bound (to buy the Typhoon), but we are all reviewing our positions in the light of the economic circumstances and the crisis in the euro zone.

So are jobs in the UK at stake here?
Not immediately, no! We have a pretty full order book currently. But we always welcome new business. It is also fair to say that the four nations also see this as an opportunity for a strategic partnership with India. And… (by buying the Typhoon) at a stroke, you would have access to the supply chain of four countries, not one. Other than the Hawk, the UK has not had many recent successes in India. That is precisely what our trade mission is about. In fact, our relationship goes well beyond the Hawk. The Agusta Westland AW101 helicopter is being built in the UK (for the IAF’s VIP squadron). Substantial parts of the M777 ultra-light howitzer, including the titanium, high-technology components, are made in Barrow, in the UK. A smaller company, Sonardyne, supplies India with sonar surveillance equipment. And Cobham has been in India for long, supplying aircraft weapons carriage equipment and communications equipment.

What is the purpose of your visit with this large British delegation?
We have three objectives. First, to show India’s corporate sector the range and depth of experience in British defence and security industry; second, to identify the evolving Indian market; and third, to form enduring partnership with Indian companies.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 09 Feb 2012 09:38

Eurofighter not out of contest, says David Cameron
Asian Age

“Eurofighter is not out of the contest yet and we need to reengage as hard as we can to make sure that we get the best deal for all those workers making Eurofighters in Britain.”

“All European leaders are actually backing the Eurofighter project. It’s a German project, it’s a Spanish project, it’s an Italian project, it’s a British project and that’s how it should be.” Labour MP Alison Seabeck raised the Typhoon issue again and asked Mr Cameron how many times he had spoken to the Indian Prime Minister about the bid. Cameron said he had raised the issue repeatedly. “I raised the issue with the Indian Prime Minister repeatedly during my visit to India and indeed at the G20 at Cannes,” he said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Feb 2012 09:45

we should a new EF whine thread for these kind of reports and post only on Kat here.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 09 Feb 2012 09:55

IMHO, we should be happy that the EF consortium is trying so hard, it will keep Dassault on its toes. Lets not forget Dassualt is quite talented at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. If anything we should use EF to wring out more concessions on the ToT esp right to upgrade independent of Dassault if we choose. So they cant do another M2K on us.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 09 Feb 2012 09:58

The Briturds can revise it all they want as the bidding period is now over in the acquisition. If and only if negotiations with the French break down, then will the EF come into play provided India's MoD asks for a new RFP. I say if that's the case, dump the EF all together since the UK govt, UK MPs, and press all being assholes and make another selection.

The article about France providing access to their nuclear LIF in Bordeaux is very interesting and Sarkozy promising the full backing of French government is also quite appealing. I think the deal will be completed as there is too much too loose on both sides.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2012 10:15

One more thing media is wrong to say it took 11 years to finalise the decision. It was only in 2007/8 that all the specs were finalist and the candidates were decided.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 09 Feb 2012 10:30

a) If the brits are saying they are rebidding, then it is an admission on their part that they held money back in their pockets; for whatever reason and had more to give away. Speaks volumes for their lack of hunger in winning this order?

b) If they do insist on submitting this bid then two things: Dassault will be under pressure, and if negos break down we get a better price if we are forced to go Tiffy. Also I do not think the tender rules will permit a final final rebid at this stage. Also, the stated arrogance of the Brits, in the media, questioning our choice and methodology, which they accepted like poodles whilst they were still in the race.

c) MoD has to be careful that the "dirty tricks" department of the Brits doesn't scuttle the deal, maybe inadvertently or purposely. We will be the losers.

Do we have a teeny weeny bone to throw to the Brits? Maybe a $100K aid package? To refurbish 10 Downing Street?

Doesn't look like buying anything is easy. *sigh*

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2012 10:54

The Brits already got the Hawks deal for IAF and IN. Further as owners in EADS they make a profit from the Rafale win also. Yet only they are making noise. Germany has reconciled and Italy and Spain are small players.

I think the British Tiff is to get the US a bone via the weapon systems.

The Brits protest too much!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Feb 2012 11:09

In case 2001-2002 standoff is repeated ,Uncle will be in not in great position to influence the outcome much. Brit on behalf od Massa are attempting to exert some kind of control by remaining relevant to have say in the matter. They are trying best to avoid tasting Rafale assisted indian made Poaq-Paapars and Poaq pakoras . Rafale provides independence in punishing Munna by reducing AS leverage over india at war time .

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 09 Feb 2012 11:39

EXCLUSIVE: Impressions Of Rafale In IAF Colours

http://livefist.blogspot.in/2012/02/exc ... n-iaf.html

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 09 Feb 2012 11:48

rajanb wrote:a) If the brits are saying they are rebidding, then it is an admission on their part that they held money back in their pockets; for whatever reason and had more to give away. Speaks volumes for their lack of hunger in winning this order?

b) If they do insist on submitting this bid then two things: Dassault will be under pressure, and if negos break down we get a better price if we are forced to go Tiffy. Also I do not think the tender rules will permit a final final rebid at this stage. Also, the stated arrogance of the Brits, in the media, questioning our choice and methodology, which they accepted like poodles whilst they were still in the race.

c) MoD has to be careful that the "dirty tricks" department of the Brits doesn't scuttle the deal, maybe inadvertently or purposely. We will be the losers.

a) nothing that black and white. If they offer a different price, there will be difference somewhere in fineprint. We simply dont have the time to go through a whole bunch of documents.

b) For the sake of professional ethics, MoD cant go back on the select. Even if they let EF make a revised offer, Rafale will cry foul - will try ask time for revising its own bid. Again will lead to a mountain of documents verify and validate in terms of ToT - "what they are not sharing to make their bid cheap" types scrutiny.

c) Precisely. Tell them that the decision is made and be done with it. We can afford a costlier Rafale, but not a delay

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 09 Feb 2012 11:56

Sanku wrote:
Marten wrote:Is there a single private sector company that is interested in manufacturing or assembling these birds?
You are really asking that Maten Saar? You know what the private sector is like (anywhere in the world) let the risk be common and the profit private. Let the tax payer pay for DARPA and basic research and prototype and what not, we will consider doing it when we have "assured orders" with given profits.

No I am not a lefty, but I dont think the crony captialism "private" industry is particularly different from "public" sector.

Both work or do not work based on the "hand" driving them, everywhere.

++++Sanku.

Infact, one of the factors where the USA still remains a power but with the soup drained from it, is the shenanigans of the private MIC in the US. I do agree that most of the tools of power (and it is still substantial) are in the Labs and factories of this MICkeys.

But the greed of profit has definitely been an influence for the USA into opting for debilitating policies and actions.

As for the need to insure a more professional approach to, as well as to accomodating the surge in manufacturing requirements, I hark back to the past.

All private airlines in India were nationalised in the 50s. And segregated into Indian Airlines and Air India. Till the mid 90's Air India was in the hands of professional management, including, the late JRD Tata, whom I was blessed to work with. Air India was the choice, in those days, of a lot of my firang bosses when they used to come visit me here.

Unfortunately, Indian Airlines was HQed in Delhi. Which explains why it couldn't be professional, in those days, as its international sister.

Both were major customers of mine.

Once the politicos/babus got into AI, it has since slipped drastically.

So when we talk of a private MIC we have to avoid the pitfalls of private greed and on the other hand the perils of babudom. The ideal situation, in my opinion, would be to have professional management running govt. organisations. Necessary to add that professional management would have to possess the highest integrity. And a hands off poicy from IAS who fancy themselves as professional managers and leaders.

And am sure that the employees would also benefit in terms of a more pleasant, rewarding working environment.

And by all means farm out and develop ancilliary industries to support the manufacturing/ assembling behemoth.

member_20099 · Post by **member_20099** » 09 Feb 2012 13:40

hi i am new to bharat rakshak. though have been reading it for a while due to lack of a non-gmail id.

The general trend is that public sector companies need to be gutted to a point that public opinion moves towards privatising.that model has been done very well in the west and is being systematically done in india.

once privatised the local players will be crowded out by foreign players in due time. india has resisted it till now.

not that there are huge problems in public sector. instead of of improving the public sector by proper management where the government and thereby the people have at least a sliver of hope of control there wouldn't be any control over private sector. one just needs to look into the statements of PM singh during the telecom and antrix saga. he said that fdi and market confidence will be affected if deal is cancelled during telecom and during antrix the indian express quoted him saying that there have been requests from us chamber of commerce not to cancel it. those were the cases for sometime till the public pressure and supreme court overruled everything.

When privatised everybody will have to adjust to the whims of the private players whose concern is only profit. all of it can be solved by proper management and putting proper people in place or else dismissing them.

since this is my first post hi to you all

debm · Post by **debm** » 09 Feb 2012 14:44

Doesn't the development timeline look real slow?

So the seventh squadron of Raffy will be in service by 2025(About one and half decade later from the time this aircraft was actually evaluated). With such a low volume production line, will we ever reach the desired strength of 39.5 squadrons? As I can see more than 2/3 of the current airforce will be retired (or in queue for retirement) by then.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 09 Feb 2012 14:48

Kailash wrote:
rajanb wrote:a) If the brits are saying they are rebidding, then it is an admission on their part that they held money back in their pockets; for whatever reason and had more to give away. Speaks volumes for their lack of hunger in winning this order?

b) If they do insist on submitting this bid then two things: Dassault will be under pressure, and if negos break down we get a better price if we are forced to go Tiffy. Also I do not think the tender rules will permit a final final rebid at this stage. Also, the stated arrogance of the Brits, in the media, questioning our choice and methodology, which they accepted like poodles whilst they were still in the race.

c) MoD has to be careful that the "dirty tricks" department of the Brits doesn't scuttle the deal, maybe inadvertently or purposely. We will be the losers.
a) nothing that black and white. If they offer a different price, there will be difference somewhere in fineprint. We simply dont have the time to go through a whole bunch of documents.

b) For the sake of professional ethics, MoD cant go back on the select. Even if they let EF make a revised offer, Rafale will cry foul - will try ask time for revising its own bid. Again will lead to a mountain of documents verify and validate in terms of ToT - "what they are not sharing to make their bid cheap" types scrutiny.

c) Precisely. Tell them that the decision is made and be done with it. We can afford a costlier Rafale, but not a delay

We can afford a costlier Rafale, but not a delay - well said!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Feb 2012 14:57

Why is GoI/MoD so quiet regarding this ??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Feb 2012 18:08

ramana wrote:RahulM< Tu to yaar nikla as my Punjabi friends say. Good job on your blog!
Very clear about the threat perception.

Makes it clear why IAF didnt want any air show ponies!

Please list your blog in the GDF blogs thread.

BTW puts all the lifafa guys to shame.

thanks saar ji. that's high praise indeed.
link is already there in the blogs thread.

rajkumar wrote:
Rahul M wrote:incidentally, my blog seems to attract a paki who curses the TSP thread honchos in chaste pakjabi.
Can I have the URL for your blog please?

here you go http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 09 Feb 2012 18:49

RahulM,
Very interesting blog!

Thanks for posting!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Feb 2012 20:31

Specs from AWST.

Rafale:
Weight empty-22,000lb.
Weight gross-54,000lb
Thrust-17,000 lb. ea.
Speed-M1.8
Loading-21,000lb external

Typhoon:
Weight empty-24,250 lb
Weight gross-51,809 lb
Thrust-20,000 lb ea
Speed-M-2.0
Loading-16,535 external

R Atkinson · Post by **R Atkinson** » 09 Feb 2012 21:09

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/37b38256 ... z1ltkwGhXF

For BR Gurus, An interesting comment by Bharat Karnad, He says a a likely bargaining chip used by the French was making its nuclear testing facility in Bordeaux available for shoring up India's Thermonuclear capabilities.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 09 Feb 2012 21:27

R Atkinson wrote:http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/37b38256 ... z1ltkwGhXF

For BR Gurus, An interesting comment by Bharat Karnad, He says a a likely bargaining chip used by the French was making its nuclear testing facility in Bordeaux available for shoring up India's Thermonuclear capabilities.

That means India could sign NPT in the near future.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Feb 2012 21:33

Its unwarranted speculation by BK.

sooraj, India cant and will not sign the NPT as that would delegitimize Indian nukes.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Feb 2012 23:39

Most likely sharing of the data an remove any doubt in the minds of Doubting "Tamases". The cooperations most likely gonna be in nuke Sub field.

mayankdr · Post by **mayankdr** » 10 Feb 2012 00:44

I don't know whether this is a right thread for this question.
But I am really curious to know the "Difference between MIG 29UPG vs MIG 35"??

kelesis · Post by **kelesis** » 10 Feb 2012 01:55

Brazil : 'C'est ça'

http://tiny.cc/luh0l

BRASILIA - The government is finally hitting the hammer in favor of the Rafale, the French Dassault, to renew its fleet of FAB.

Everything indicates that the Rafale is coming.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 10 Feb 2012 04:26

^^^

Good news for the French! Overall it should bring the costs down too so, good for us in the end as well!
Anyone know what is the size of the Brazilian order?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Feb 2012 04:42

anishns wrote:^^^

Good news for the French! Overall it should bring the costs down too so, good for us in the end as well!
Anyone know what is the size of the Brazilian order?

36.

Will Brazil follow India’s Rafale bet?

In a country where defense policy has traditionally not been an key aspect of overall foreign policy, seeing a former powerful foreign minister assume the Ministry of Defense is certain to raise some eyebrows. And so it happened when, in August 2011, President Dilma Rousseff chose Celso Amorim, the architect of Brazil's foreign policy under the Lula administration, to replace Nelson Jobim after the latter had openly questioned the capacity of several of his fellow cabinet members.

While Jobim was generally respected by the generals and considered to be a competent manager, several leading members of the armed forced voiced their concern about Amorim, who conservatives often accuse of being an anti-American ideologue. Yet no matter how one thinks about Amorim, there is a good possibility that the appointment of such a visible personality (and today's foreign minister's former boss) will boost the role of defense in Brazil's foreign policy.

This may partly explain why Amorim's recent trip to India 6 weeks prior to the BRICS Summit in New Delhi has gained considerable more media attention in both Brazil and India than Jobim's India trip a year earlier. Military ties between India and Brazil are growing, and India uses Brazilian Embraer aircraft for indigenous airborne early warning and control systems. Yet for several other reasons the timing made the trip special: Only days before, India had annonunced that it would buy 126 French-made Rafale combat aircraft in a $11 billion deal - a deal that, as one would expect, caused considerably controversy among security analysts in India.

In a somewhat unusual move, India agreed during Amorim's trip to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out the open tender evaluation to select the best aircraft. This matters greatly to Brazil, as it is currently involved in a similar selection process. Brazil would like to buy 36 fighter jets, and Rafale, F-18 and Gripen-NG are still in the race. Just as in India, the process was mired in controversy given its large size and the significant political implications. After President Lula seemed to favor the Rafale in 2009, the Dilma administration put the deal on hold in an effort to reduce public spending.

The big question now is how the decision to have Brazil study documents about India's selection process will affect the tender process in Brazil. India's purchase certainly makes the Rafale seem less risky. A decision to follow India's would not only boost ties between Brazil and France, but it would make India and Brazil the only two countries other than France to boast the Rafale jet, thus creating further potential for stronger ties in the area of military technology.

naird · Post by **naird** » 10 Feb 2012 04:42

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 830845.cms

Wow ...Hows this possible ? Given that we have been hearing so much about Katrina and Kareena over the years about price difference being very low !! Looks like French has really gone all the way to the floor for this bid !!

Good News for India !!

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 10 Feb 2012 05:16

25000 crore will be 5 bill USD if I am not wrong.

Moreover if this 5 bill is 25 % more than dassault bid, then the deal is actually close to 20 bill USD !!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Feb 2012 06:10

Rafale B next to a Rafale M

http://holding-point.fr/photos/highdef/3695.jpg

Landing Gear differences in the Rafale C (air force variant) and the Rafale M (naval variant)

Landing Gear - Rafale C

Landing Gear - Rafale M

Buddy Rafale Refuelling

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Feb 2012 06:17

If Brazil and India coordinate then we can bring down the net unit price tag per babe for both of us. AoA

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2012 06:47

that buddy fueling shot is sweet. didnt realize they could do it. brazil will no doubt have a follow on order for whatever the select - maybe 36 + 36 + 36 in the end as their older planes retire out.

its time they started punching at their weight level and poking their fingers into the malvinas issue as well..as the regional superpower

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Feb 2012 07:14

Dont know what to make of this? A hit Job?

Flying into rough weather

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 10 Feb 2012 07:40

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review.

It was the "substantially higher cost" of acquiring and operating the Eurofighter Typhoon that led to its ejection from the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to supply 126 fighters to IAF.

"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale," a top defence ministry source said on Thursday.

Given all this, MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it, and will begin "exclusive and extensive negotiations" with Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation next week. "The actual contract for the complex project should be ready for inking by September-October," said a source.

British PM David Cameron may have vowed to "encourage" India to reconsider its decision to go in for Rafale, instead of the EADS-manufactured Typhoon, in the largest "open-tender" military aviation deal going around the globe. But that is highly unlikely to happen.

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.

Both Rafale and Typhoon had been found "compliant" on all the 643-660 technical parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India, after gruelling field trials by IAF test pilots spread over two years.

The other four jets -- the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen - were weeded out from the hotly-contested race last year since they did not meet all the "test points".

"We went by the book, first in the extensive technical evaluation and now in the meticulous commercial evaluation, without any external factors coming into play," said the source.

For one, the "life cycle cost" of operating the Typhoon over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, was found to be "higher" than Rafale after extensive calculations of flight costs, spares, maintenance and the like. "The life cycle costs were actually the tool to determine who was L-1 (lowest bidder)," he said.

For another, the difference in the 'direct acquisition cost', which will actually be used to ink the contract, was even bigger. "The Typhoon's commercial bid was way too high. Rafale was the clear L-1 in both life cycle as well as direct acquisition costs," he added.

Dassault will now have to submit a detailed project report on the transfer of technology (ToT) to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). While the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition'' from France from mid-2015 onwards, the rest 108 fighters will subsequently be manufactured under licence by HAL over six years.

"We will negotiate each and every element in the complex project with the French. Payments, as also the 50% offsets specified in the contract, will be spread over 11 to 13 years," he said.

The first jet built in HAL is expected to roll out by 2017-2018. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. "HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end. Incidentally, Typhoon's cost of ToT was also very high," he said.

This "mother" of all defence deals will later become the "granny", as reported by TOI earlier, since India will in all probability go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126 jets.

IAF is looking at these 126 new jets, apart from the ongoing progressive induction of 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, to stem its fast-eroding combat edge against Pakistan and China. IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons.

India is now finalizing details of the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) to be built in the coming decades. IAF hopes to begin inducting the first lot of the 250 to 300 FGFA from 2020 onwards, which rough calculations show will eventually cost India around $35 billion.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Feb 2012 07:44

The forces behind Dassault’s coup

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Feb 2012 07:59

there was a hit job in favour of sucking up to khan and/or rus by a fellow of the observer research foundation in TOIlet today.

he obviously does not have to pull night time missions over tibet in a f-18-neutura or mig-35.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 10 Feb 2012 08:18

I couldn't desist from making back of the paper calculations.

Vipul wrote:IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review.

snip
"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale," a top defence ministry source said on Thursday.

So Typhoon was nearly $41 mn more expensive than the Rafale per bird. This includes all costs though, not just the sticker price.

Vipul wrote:IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review.

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.

So we're looking at upwards of Rs. 25,000 * 4 = ~100,000 crore or $21 bn program. [$166 mn per Rafale]

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 10 Feb 2012 08:27

negi wrote: If Brazil and India coordinate then we can bring down the net unit price tag per babe for both of us. AoA

What about offset and ToT ?

if we each get half the critical component ToTed completely from Dassault and then decide to trade that data, we might end up with an almost complete picture

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Feb 2012 08:46

Sumeet wrote:
Rahul M wrote:The MRCA Story And What It Means For India
http://brfrahulm.blogspot.in/2012/02/mr ... india.html
Rahul great blog.

thanks saar ji.

Please consider adding this little known fact that France approved at lightning speed modifying M2K for Israeli PGMs in Kargil war. W/o this action it would have been difficult for us to win it.

I did mention the "prompt support" during kargil. didn't add specifics since this is relatively well known.

Plus you may want to mention that Rafale being a nuclear capable a/c (Will carry ASMP-A cruise missile) India may use it as part of its airborne strategic deterrence.

ASMP will not be available for India. at this stage India can possibly alter any potentially capable aircraft to nuke-delivery role on its own. even LCA if need be. not considering radiation hardening, to the a/c it's just another bomb. the only extra thing could be a passkey protected arming mechanism but depending on procedure that step can be carried out on the ground.

Second, if memory serves me right Meteor for Rafale would have single way datalink. I read this long time back (3-4 years ago). So you may want to verify that piece of info for dark side of Rafale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA_Meteor#Rafale

I have read it as well and have some doubts about it. 1 way datalink means the a/c can update the missile but not receive info from it. now since the meteor already has that capability (MICA, which is rafale's primary AAM at the moment, doesn't. understandable since it is a shorter range missile) all rafale would need is a receiver. even if it is not there already, it should be by the time meteor is integrated.

You will like this article and you may reference it from your blog and include its points to make your blog even more complete.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... india.html

thanks. I believe I have covered most of the points in there. the article is good but has some BS as well like germany as a role model and whatnot.

Sumeet wrote:What are chances of fitting Brahmos-A on Rafale ? Any thoughts on that ...

FWIW, apparently the pylons can support the missile without strengthening but the dimensions might cause problems.
in any case brahmos is not the ideal ASM, scalp/taurus or even the nirbhay should be a better bet.

@ Nandan D, thanku saar.

koti · Post by **koti** » 10 Feb 2012 09:40

Kailash wrote:So we're looking at upwards of Rs. 25,000 * 4 = ~100,000 crore or $21 bn program. [$166 mn per Rafale]

That will not be the upfront payment cost Kailash.
It will be spread across the life cycle of the plane. Thats a good 30 year period. So it should be somewhat similar to the costs we incur on other birds like FGFA or Rambha.