Phone, Tablet and Gizmo Thread #0x02

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Oct 2012 07:41

SaiK wrote:I am amazed how Sprint and ATT lags in network capabilities and coverage, in this super duper age of high speed communication sats, fiber optics and high bandwidth networking systems availability.

What you're saying is true for residential or commercial facilities, but data rates and bandwidth are limited for mobile wireless data communications. Mobile wireless data communications is a different ball game.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2012 09:49

Mortullah, all the technology in the world is useless if it is not available both widely and reliably. ATT's problems are more to do with those two factors rather than technology itself. One can always see that sub par performance technology (say in terms of speed) which is available with wide and reliable coverage is going to trump more TFTA technology which has lower less reliable coverage. QoS is what matters ultimately, that drives end user experience, rather than simply core technology.

Having been exposed to wonderphool promises by massa carriers in the past (ATT and Sprint were the worst fluffmasters), I will wait till they actually improve on the ground in a significant manner. Verizon is hardly great in absolute terms but as they say, Andhon mein kaanaa raja!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2012 10:52

As predicted on this dhaaga some moons ago

In his annual letter, CEO Steve Ballmer says Microsoft's future is a tight combination of hardware and software

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 10 Oct 2012 18:25

http://railradar.trainenquiry.com/

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Oct 2012 19:40

Raja Bose wrote:Mortullah, all the technology in the world is useless if it is not available both widely and reliably. ATT's problems are more to do with those two factors rather than technology itself. One can always see that sub par performance technology (say in terms of speed) which is available with wide and reliable coverage is going to trump more TFTA technology which has lower less reliable coverage. QoS is what matters ultimately, that drives end user experience, rather than simply core technology.

Having been exposed to wonderphool promises by massa carriers in the past (ATT and Sprint were the worst fluffmasters), I will wait till they actually improve on the ground in a significant manner. Verizon is hardly great in absolute terms but as they say, Andhon mein kaanaa raja!

Sorry, but ATT's voice coverage is quite good and this isn't TFTA technology, so I have no clue what you're talking about. What I'm talking about are basic mobile communication transmission standards and LTE implementation that is right around the corner. Because to improve user experience there has to be more spectrum available and use existing spectrum more efficiently. I hope you understand that most basic fact. User perception will change very quickly because as we speak things are changing for mobile data communications.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Oct 2012 21:02

They are good perhaps where you live. What you are talking about is high level effects of how deployment of new technology will make everything better and magically make the user experience better. That is all fine but to have impact on the ground, a lot more additional factors come into play because we are talking large scale deployment here, not fluffy marketing PowerPoints. What good is LTE if equipment on the ground is prone to high failure rates or coverage is sketchy or quality is highly variable? What I am talking about is end-user experience, something that is driven by a combination of good technology, but more importantly by widespread coverage and reliablity. You can have the best most efficient technology in the world but if it doesn't reach enough people with a certain consistent reliability, its like farting in the wind. The end user doesn't care what technology you use or deploy - what they see is what they get, literally.

I have used ATT extensively over ~4 years in many different locations with many different phones for true testing - dropped calls, high variability in signal strength, periodic disconnections and failure to register, you name it. Incidentally since my personal line is VZW, I had the opportunity to use it also in all these locations and hence, can compare. We also have had direct access to ATT/TMO/VZW cell sites as part of that process (also hosted them physically).

Things are always changing in mobile communications, when have they ever been constant? Change and impact are two different things when are talking about 100s of millions of users.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 10 Oct 2012 21:29

ATT QOS coverage sucks is a known fact! I personally think, it is not about technology but about investment philosophy. Nothing else explains the 15+ years of lagging performance.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Oct 2012 23:33

I used ATT in east coast mostly in and around new england and Bostonabad area, I did not have much to complain about their service. At least in that region ATT has lot of kashtmaars.

negi · Post by **negi** » 10 Oct 2012 23:36

Btw one has to realize that folks at ATT wanted to acquire T-mobile for exactly the issues being discussed here but then GOTUS gave a KLPD to them.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Oct 2012 00:03

negi wrote: At least in that region ATT has lot of kashtmaars.

Lot of customers is what gave ATT a bad name a few years ago. This was when iPhunwa was exclusively available on ATT. Many people switched to ATT back then to get the iPhunwa and their infrastructure couldn't handle all the extra load. But their service has improved a lot in recent times. Still may not match Verizon, but Verizon's plans are more expensive as well.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 00:45

Raja Bose wrote:They are good perhaps where you live. What you are talking about is high level effects of how deployment of new technology will make everything better and magically make the user experience better. That is all fine but to have impact on the ground, a lot more additional factors come into play because we are talking large scale deployment here, not fluffy marketing PowerPoints. What good is LTE if equipment on the ground is prone to high failure rates or coverage is sketchy or quality is highly variable? What I am talking about is end-user experience, something that is driven by a combination of good technology, but more importantly by widespread coverage and reliablity. You can have the best most efficient technology in the world but if it doesn't reach enough people with a certain consistent reliability, its like farting in the wind. The end user doesn't care what technology you use or deploy - what they see is what they get, literally.

I have used ATT extensively over ~4 years in many different locations with many different phones for true testing - dropped calls, high variability in signal strength, periodic disconnections and failure to register, you name it. Incidentally since my personal line is VZW, I had the opportunity to use it also in all these locations and hence, can compare. We also have had direct access to ATT/TMO/VZW cell sites as part of that process (also hosted them physically).

Things are always changing in mobile communications, when have they ever been constant? Change and impact are two different things when are talking about 100s of millions of users.

I really don't think you understand. In order to understand current mobile computing, you have to understand how wireless data is transmitted today and why its important to pay attention to this since it is always changing. The end user experience is dependent on this and subsequently varies. Your complaint sounds like a person who says their watch has the wrong time, but doesn't change the battery. I have used ATT and TMO extensively from LAS through NYC and BOS, but not in the northwest, Pacific and western mountain states, so their coverage in places may not be that good. That said I wonder if your experience is in the last year where ATT has actually improved? Widespread coverage and reliability is subjective due to location. If what you say is true, then ATT would not have 105 million subscribers and people would have gone to other wireless telecom service providers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2012 01:30

Mort, My son says we have a spare Samsung Eternity from ATT which is a quad band phone. Its way past the contract. I checked the manual also. Question is what do they have to unlock it? is it simple way of putting a new SIM card in India? Currently he can swap SIMs from different ATT phone numbers and they work.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 01:36

One of the biggest problems today is that the LTE spectrum in the US is so disparate between all of the carriers. The US has bands 2, 4, 10, 12, 13, 14 and 17 which varies from 700-2100 MHz.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 01:42

ramana wrote:Mort, My son says we have a spare Samsung Eternity from ATT which is a quad band phone. Its way past the contract. I checked the manual also. Question is what do they have to unlock it? is it simple way of putting a new SIM card in India? Currently he can swap SIMs from different ATT phone numbers and they work.

No, you have to contact ATT and provide them the IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number, typically located under the battery or on the box or menu, and they will send you the unlock code. It may be best to take it to an ATT store if you still have service with them. When you put in a new SIM card then you will have to enter this code to unlock it. I would advise you do this in the US should you run in to trouble. Find someone with a TMO SIM card and have them put their SIM card in and then you can unlock it. If you can't take it to an ATT store and attempt unlock in the US, then there are a multitude of vendors who can do this for you in India should you have the unlock code.

Finally, Archan had mentioned why not buy the phone in India starting at Rs. 2500? These phones are not quad band and are dual band, where they will work in Asia and maybe EU, and will not work when you re-enter the US. This OK if you want to carry two devices. Quad band phones are prohibitively expensive in India.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 02:01

ramana wrote:Mort, My son says we have a spare Samsung Eternity from ATT which is a quad band phone. Its way past the contract. I checked the manual also. Question is what do they have to unlock it? is it simple way of putting a new SIM card in India? Currently he can swap SIMs from different ATT phone numbers and they work.

Contact ATT or go to their store and get the unlock code.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 02:09

The FCC announced yesterday that AT&T and T-Mobile have filed an application to swap PCS (1900 MHz) licenses and one AWS (1700 MHz) license. According to the report, the two companies would exchange equal amounts of spectrum in 35 markets with AT&T gaining spectrum in 12 markets. In another 8 markets, T-Mobile would gain 5-10 MHz of PCS spectrum. Along with that, T-Mobile would pick up another 10 MHz of AWS spectrum covering Spokane, Washington. Both AT&T and T-Mobile subscribers should see better coverage in the next several months.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Release ... 1605A1.pdf

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 02:16

Mort Walker wrote:I really don't think you understand. In order to understand current mobile computing, you have to understand how wireless data is transmitted today and why its important to pay attention to this since it is always changing. The end user experience is dependent on this and subsequently varies.

Unfortunately what you don't seem to get is that all that does not matter if infra is inadequate in terms of coverage, is unreliable or has high variability in QoS. So simply moving to a different/better standard doesn't mean $hit to the end-user unless it is available and reliable. I do happen to know how "mobile computing" works to some degree.

Mort Walker wrote: Widespread coverage and reliability is subjective due to location.

And you still claim its all about the technology onlee?
Those two factors are what majorly affects end user experience in a mobile network today, even one as data centric as US. And that is the problem with ATT. Moreover, their QoS measures have the highest variance across carriers - another major cause of frustrating user experience.

Mort Walker wrote: If what you say is true, then ATT would not have 105 million subscribers and people would have gone to other wireless telecom service providers.

That's like saying Windows Vista was awesome simply becoz it was the fastest selling OS of its time (which it was)!

Like I said, I will believe it when I see it. Till then all the wonderphool PR about how things will magically get so much better means jack$.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 02:43

RB,

I disagree that wireless telecom is inadequate and unreliable. It is far more reliable today than in the past and if you want to wait until it is absolutely robust, that's up to you. To make QoS better, then the implementation of how wireless data and voice are transmitted are of extreme importance. In fact, experienced RF (radio) engineers in the telecom industry are worth their weight in gold since they can make network deployment successful. Yes, you're right about wireless telecom always changing and it will always be that way (see the link from the FCC above). QoS surveys are meaningless when there is a wide variance with each user.

I never claimed it was all about technology, but the preference is to use GSM with HSPA+ where possible.

This is far from any company PR or future magic, but more about what is happening to the spectrum and its limitations. BTW, you don't have to believe me, just visit some communication engineers who are you neighbors on Hansen Way (all of my old friends there have retired and died off).

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 06:49

Saar I prefer to consult the ones in Scott Blvd Santa Clara (part of my work) - they know much more than the Hansen way crowd when it comes to mobile networks and infra especially very large scale deployments

. My BIL also happens to a RF engineer - pretty much any base station in use today in the world uses a bunch of ASICs he developed personally and also a whole bunch of his patents.

What you are talking about is from a purely technology/protocol/standards standpoint. That is all good but from the consumer standpoint it is useless till those 2 issues I mentioned are addressed - coverage and reliability. Adopting new technology doesn't magically solve deployment, coverage and reliability issues and these are what drive user experience in the end, rather than some specific technology onlee. Don't mix the two.

Mort Walker wrote:QoS surveys are meaningless when their is a wide variance with each user.

When there is wide variance in QoS with each user, saying that user experience is great is lahori logic at best.

Good user experience means certain consistent level of service across all users rather than great experience for certain pockets of users onlee.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 08:23

^^^Great. First all smart phones today are toys and then all networks have poor coverage and reliability. Thanks for the guidance, I guess we should toss them all out and get a good 2-way radio.

Thank you for your enlightened help. Goodbye.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 08:56

^^You are welcome.

PS: Not all networks, I said AT&T is the worst, remember? I hope you dont work for ATT. If you do I can understand the glorious picture you are painting...seen that before. Oh, and for a change read what I have posted instead of spouting blinkered nonsense. High variance in QoS == QoS is useless == great user experience, indeed!

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 10:03

^^^Perhaps you should consult with your BIL and ask him what is happening in the spectrum today, then perhaps you'll understand, you refuse to state anything positive about VZW technology implementation such as their FIOS (VZW's version of voice over IP on LTE bands). You simply refuse to attempt to understand what is happening today that affects networks today. LTE is being rolled out as we speak and the ground reality is constantly changing. There is no blinkered nonsense except for you constantly vomiting out end user experience as the end all - be all and have your head buried in the sand.

BTW, I do not work for ATT (or any other telecom) and do not have them as my service provider. I use VZW and TMO.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 10:47

Oh trust me, he is the 1st one to complain about ATT - much more than I ever will since I never directly worked on stuff which goes into the infra while he did.

Mort Walker wrote:There is no blinkered nonsense except for you constantly vomiting out end user experience as the end all - be all and have your head buried in the sand.

Yes, End-user experience is the end-all and be-all when it comes to consumer services and devices. Do you know why? Becoz it is the end-user who pays the bills which collectively make up the revenue, profits and salaries of the telecom operators. So you bet end-user experience is the end-all and be-all here.

Step back and take a look at how ridiculous your above statement sounds. Now please take your foot out of your mouth and your head out of the sand.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 10:55

^^^The end user experience is all you see, what you don't or can't see is the technology which makes it possible and even worse - what is happening to the technology as we speak.

Oh trust me, he is the 1st one to complain about ATT - much more than I ever will since I never directly worked on stuff which goes into the infra while he did.

ATT is much better today than it was even 9 months ago. Their network is improving. Sprint coverage is the worst.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Oct 2012 11:06

My chaiwalah informs me that Fruit Co. wanted to introduce their gaana distribution bizness in the desi market. Record company execs lined up for the meeting wanting to impose a floor price in the range of INR 3-5. Everyone got shocked when Fruit insisted that the floor be set to INR25-35, meaning that they couldn't sell in the digital formats to anyone below that price. Needless to say nothing materialised.

Which leads me to believe that stuff on the Ai-dukaan is mucho price fixed!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 11:07

I see the technology part of this all right, after all I work in that space. But I also lift my head up to see whether that technology impacts the end-user positively or not. And if not, why not? Just grinding on the technology with one's head down does not necessarily make it successful or lead to a positive impact. One has to look at other factors for example, those which affect the delivery of that technology into the hands of the user, whether that is a reliable network or a shiny box of your new smartphone. And that is not the job of the "sales" people or the strat-e-jee YumBeeAye munna onlee, it is the job of every engineer who is involved in any aspect of the system. User experience is not a fancy term to be used by designers or powerpoint munnas, it actually means something and translates into something very tangible.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 11:10

Prasant wrote: Which leads me to believe that stuff on the Ai-dukaan is mucho price fixed!

Ofcourse it is price fixed. Why do you think there was so much takleef when iTunes/iPod/iPad were launching. Biggest

was when iPad was launching from magazine and newspaper wallahs. Anyways Fruit Co. is targetting the TFTA dilli/b'luru billi crowd onlee which spends Rs.500/- on a cup of coffee so Rs.25/35 is pocket change for them.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Oct 2012 11:16

Actually INR 25/35 is too much for aam junta based on strat-e-gee discussions I have been having with the Tokri Company. Which is why their price bands for mainstream songs are way below that range.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Oct 2012 11:18

I think it is an SDRE trait whether one is a Jor Bagh Dilli Billi or a bastiwala to be price conscious.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Oct 2012 11:21

What is this Rs. 25/35 price point for exactly? New mainstream songs in Chacha's Play store are a little less than $10 per song in massa.
Being the besharam phata-dhoti abdul myself, I've never "bought" any music in my life. If you can't find it directly to download, you can always rip it off youtube.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Oct 2012 11:24

Saar, this is with respect to desi market onlee.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 11:27

That is what I used to think onlee but I notice more and more that the uppah middal class folks in the metros are behaving like that character in Wake Up Sid. It percolates even here in massa. One worthy few months ago told me that how come I shop at Walmart instead of Whole Foods. I told him becoz the stuff I wanna buy is cheaper in Walmart, so why pay more to buy it from Whole Foods....I mean it is exactly the same brand/stuff. Out came the response from our man, but nobody goes to Walmart unless they are a poor grad student.

nachiket-ullah, I just used up all of Chacha's free $25.-, given to me for purchasing Nexus 7 and didn't spend a dime after that.

Though to be fair, Chacha's selections for content are not as good as iTunes.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Oct 2012 11:28

Prasant wrote:Saar, this is with respect to desi market onlee.

I know, but a song which costs $10 in massaland cannot magically reduce to Rs. 3-5 in desh no? Rs. 25-35 would probably be acceptable for those few people in desh who have iPhunwas and buy songs.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Oct 2012 11:34

Actually they can. I was surprised about the variation based on territorial rights. Same for books and e-books. Anyway, the bulk of the gana bajana on the proposed ai-dukaan would have been bollywood based. Good news is that won't happen.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Oct 2012 11:41

Hmm, turns out I was wrong. The $10 price was for a whole album. The individual songs are around $1.30. First time I even peeked into the "Music" section in the Google Play Store. Bollywood songs would be cheaper. But still Rs.3-5 sounds extremely unrealistic. No wonder Fruit co. didn't agree.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 11 Oct 2012 11:44

Raja Bose wrote: nachiket-ullah, I just used up all of Chacha's free $25.-, given to me for purchasing Nexus 7 and didn't spend a dime after that.

Didn't know they were giving that with the Nexus 7. What songs did you buy anyway?

And how come you bought the N7 and not the iPadwa hain jee?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 11:50

The promotion stopped on Oct 1 iirc. Spent most of it watching some movies, some inglishtani songs. Dont need to spend anything on Hindi songs since I can get it for free onlee.

I like the Nexus 7 - they had some initial manufacturing quality issues but once Asus fixed that, its a nice tablet. Ofcourse iPadwa saath inchy is gonna kill that as per punter log.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 11 Oct 2012 12:05

nachiket wrote:Hmm, turns out I was wrong. The $10 price was for a whole album. The individual songs are around $1.30. First time I even peeked into the "Music" section in the Google Play Store. Bollywood songs would be cheaper. But still Rs.3-5 sounds extremely unrealistic. No wonder Fruit co. didn't agree.

INR 3-5 is what they are actually expecting and getting paid as of now. For instance, check out Tokri Company's MP3 section. The price range is INR 6-15.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2012 17:31

Raja Bose wrote:I see the technology part of this all right, after all I work in that space. But I also lift my head up to see whether that technology impacts the end-user positively or not. And if not, why not? Just grinding on the technology with one's head down does not necessarily make it successful or lead to a positive impact. One has to look at other factors for example, those which affect the delivery of that technology into the hands of the user, whether that is a reliable network or a shiny box of your new smartphone. And that is not the job of the "sales" people or the strat-e-jee YumBeeAye munna onlee, it is the job of every engineer who is involved in any aspect of the system. User experience is not a fancy term to be used by designers or powerpoint munnas, it actually means something and translates into something very tangible.

UX is too subject to human behavior which is hard to quantify. A better UX will come about if you have better battery life, more processing speed, more spectrum, optimized OS/apps and lower costs. If everyone was primarily concerned with UX without the technology, then we would all have the same smart phone/tablet and service provider, but we don't. People are different and make different decisions based economics and perceptions. Your argument suggesting that transmission technology has little or no impact until UX changes favorably is akin to asking me to convert to another religion because mine is so flawed. We should all be using iOS devices on the VZW network.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Oct 2012 21:46

That is where you are making a cardinal mistake. UX is not just about the buttery smooth UI or the TFTA glass back. At a broad level UX and design encompasses the overall feeling a consumer has when using a device or service, right from the drivers of their buying decision to the everyday use. On the ground, in context of mobile computing, it involves not only all aspects of a device (apps, battery, OS etc.) but also the service back-end it is tethered to - you bet it includes how good or bad the cellular service is. The end-user is a human so if your technology does not positively impact the human who is using it, what good is it for? Unless your technology is targeted for use by martians.

Technology does not exist in a vaccum. Unless it is for a totally research oriented scientific use - it's worth is only measured in the direct impact it has on its consumer base (not just a small pocket of consumers). We have a saying "Technology for technology's sake" to refer to stuff we do which is cool, results in cool demos but has limited or no impact on the end-consumer. Such technology usually dies.

You might think that being an injineer it is not your job to think about these things and that makes you a technology purist - you couldn't be further from the truth.

The Mahdi wrote:Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer – that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.

BTW never confuse people who are forced to buy your offerings with people who want to buy your offerings or aspire to buy your offerings. That is a major cause of blind spot amongst jernails and karnails including strat-e-jee munnas, who will trot out statements such as "oh! if our technology was so bad we wouldn't have XYZ millions of consumers", only to see those consumers jump sides without warning and profits downhill skiing into pakistan.