Thesis: Peace unlikely in next 25 years

[shiv]

As the title states, the thesis of this opinion piece by me is that there is no chance of that mythical "Peace" with Pakistan (or China) for the next 25 years at least. That means that if you are 25 years old today, you need to prepare yourself and your nation for possibility of continuing conflict on and off until you are 50 at the very least. If your son was born last year, he will have finished college while being and observer of continuing conflict. Don't fool him with silly ideas that peace may come tomorrow. It won't. Everyone needs to prepare for continuing conflict. This may or may not be hot war, but it certainly will not be peace and harmony between nations the way people talk of peace.

Why is this so?

1. Anyone who observes military preparedness should be able to see that big ticket military hardware requires forward planing for 20 to 25 years. Go back and search for the earliest references to "Project Sea Bird" and check the date. Similarly LCA, IGMDP and other programs were all set into motion over 25 years ago and are bearing fruit now. The gains will not simply be thrown away. A country that has required investment in security for over 50 years cannot simply stop doing that and say "we will now make ploughs, not weapons". We will covert our soldiers into pizza delivery boys. You cannot employ a million young people for the purpose of defence and then suddenly tell then "No jobs tomorrow". It did happen after WW2. In America, and even then American industries and personnel did not shift completely to a peace economy. They just became a peacetime power that looked for more war and found it soon enough. I am not saying that was wrong. The morality of that and my own views on that will require a separate post/article.

2. I recall weeks of anxiety on the faces of my elders when I was a child in 1962. By 1965 we had another war and I was old enough to read newspapers. In 1971 we had yet another war. There appeared to be an uneasy calm from 1972 to about 1979-80 when insurgencies and terrorism started. From 1984 we saw continuous infiltration and terrorism until 1999 when we had another little war. From 2000 to 2008 we had a peaking of terrorism. From 2009 to 2013 we have had continuing terrorism and infiltration at the border. Pakistan and its best brothel customers, the US and China have been involved from way back in the 1950s. Any Indian who believes that there can suddenly be peace is an imbecile. There is a culture of hostility in Pakistan. Hate education against India has continued from 1973 onwards. People of Pakistan who were 10 years old in 1973 who saw their army's abject defeat have been fed with hate education since then. they are now 50 years old and are becoming the leaders of Pakistan. Pakistan has 100 million people under 25. Many of these people have been indoctrinated to hate India. This is not going to fade away easily. Certainly not in the next 25 years.

3. Imagine that "peace" starts from tomorrow, the 10th of April 2013. Who will be able to declare that the peace is permanent? Would you say on the 17th of April that permanent peace has arrived? Would you be able to say that in 2014. Or 2020? Looking at the history of continuous conflict for over 50 years, there would have to be a peaceful interlude of at least 25 years before a whole generation can say with confidence that peace can hold. Any Indian leader who tries to tell Indians that peace can occur after a couple of worthless agreements with Pakistan is a liar. Any Indian in the media or outside who believes such a statement is an ignorant idiot. Things simply DO NOT work that way.

4. Even if peace has held for 5 years, each side will want the other to disarm to prove their sincerity. Pakistan's "sincerity" is non existent. So India cannot disarm. In fact the sensible thing to do would be to build up India's defence and technological base and make a virtue out of necessity. Stay well armed and ready to hit anyone who is aggressive. Build up high tech as a necessity for defence. This posture for 50 years would be necessary to bring a semblance of stability.

5. People who refer to Gandhiji's "non violence" and peace are too ignorant for words. They have not understood the first thing about Gandhi's tactics vis a vis the British. His non violence was a veiled threat that basically warned the Brits that they had better vacate after "peaceful negotiation" with 300 million Indians. Failing that there would be plenty of violence and they would go anyway. The British got the hint while the rest of the world imagined that "all was peaceful". I am a proponent of Gandhi style peace. Peace will come only if you are ready to kick the sorry asses of anyone who tries. The only way peace can come to India is to make India dangerous to anyone who wants to pick a fight.

[shiv]

If you are a normal Indian, you are indoctrinated with the idea that "peace" is desirable. As long as there is no peace, you are taught to think that the situation is unsatisfactory. You are taught to work for peace. You are taught to work for goodwill.

If your education has taught you all this, our parents, elders and teachers have been lying to us. They have been lying to us because they have been lied to themselves and have ended up believing in some mythical peace. Hindus in particular are drunk with the idea of the peace that prevailed after Ravana was killed. No one has told us that Ravana still has to be killed. War and preparation for war is necessary.

In the brief interludes between acts of violence, well intentioned Indian peacemongers imagine that peace is possible without thinking the whole thing through. Their pleas for peace are reinforced by the odd article from Pakistan or some other country that speaks of how India is so sooo poor and how we would spend soooo much money on peacetime activities like educating the poor.

This is not going to happen. India will be fair to its poor and needy, but not because some foreign country/entity demands that. India will be fair to its poor after getting ready to kick all butts that speak with forked tongues. No person outside of India has the right to talk of what India spends on the military versus what it spends on education and the poor if that nation has done anything to arm or support anyone who has attacked India. Such people need to be told to shut their friggin pie holes and stick their heads up a place where the sun don't shine.

[RajeshA]

There can never be peace between Dharma and Adharma. There can be no peaceful coexistence between Justice and Injustice. There can be no peaceful hugs between Matter and Anti-matter.

There can however be short interludes which seem peaceful but for these interludes even, first Rama has to give Ravana a crushing defeat.

[pentaiah]

Like anti Christ I want TSP to be eternal and with continued hostility towards India for the next 4 to 5 generations. This is the best way for India to develop self sufficiency, independence and robust pluralistic society with great institutions in public service, science and citizenry of true knowledge.

The across the border events and people will in contrast rust and decay beyond recognition and utility to man kind.
Jai hind

[RamaY]

^^+108.
^+72.

Post-independent India is like a polluted river, say Yamuna in Delhi. Pakistan is a toxic poodle, like the pics we see in China dhaga.

For India to make peace with Pakistan and still remain non-toxic, India should become pure Ganga first.

Peace with Pakistan unlikely until India becomes a pure Hindu Bharat.

[harbans]

Like anti Christ I want TSP to be eternal and with continued hostility towards India for the next 4 to 5 generations.

We do not have 4-5 generations of dilly dally time with Pakistan or BD for that matter. For many years i have been for that very reason trying to bring about a rally point not on the basis of Hindutva or Hindu or anything but for Dharmics as a whole. IMO we need 1. For the next 5-10 years economic plus mild Dharmic consolidation of Bharatiya's. We must be a 10-15 T USD economy by 2025 at the max. 2. After consolidating Dharma and the Economy after us, 10-15 years time we actively with economic incentive, philosophical initiative woo back millions of Indics from Adharmic branches back to the embrace of Dharma.

The strategic plan must be economic plus Dharmic consolidation in the short term (10 years from beginning now). By then the right economic push initiatives will be internalized. Then it is the right time to push actively major consolidation of Indics into the Dharmic folds. NM is correctly poised for the 1st 10 years of the initiative.

[member_22872]

Even though TSP might serve for bench marking our prosperity, peace wise it is inimical to India. Given that TSP has abnormally intelligent people as actors and non-actors who maintain their cesspool, we will keep getting hit more and more as we prosper, you can call that the jaundiced eye effect. I am afraid that the attacks will be in proportion to their sinking. After all what do they have to loose? nothing. A man on death row can take as many as he can before his death, what has he to loose? if it goes down, what has it got to loose by lobbing it's nuke arsenal on India before it's final demise?

TSP is like a rock tied to India's neck, till it's very end, that wont change.

[Agnimitra]

4. Even if peace has held for 5 years, each side will want the other to disarm to prove their sincerity. Pakistan's "sincerity" is non existent. So India cannot disarm. In fact the sensible thing to do would be to build up India's defence and technological base and make a virtue out of necessity. Stay well armed and ready to hit anyone who is aggressive. Build up high tech as a necessity for defence. This posture for 50 years would be necessary to bring a semblance of stability.

5. People who refer to Gandhiji's "non violence" and peace are too ignorant for words. They have not understood the first thing about Gandhi's tactics vis a vis the British. His non violence was a veiled threat that basically warned the Brits that they had better vacate after "peaceful negotiation" with 300 million Indians. Failing that there would be plenty of violence and they would go anyway.

As time goes on, India's peace overtures to TSP should be aimed at:
+1. Co-opting certain sections of that society, both, from within the RAPEs (resident and expat) as well as the small middle class businessmen.
+2. Offering or justifying Indian patrols (on the ground as well as via drones) into Paki areas, in order to maintain law an order - a task which the Paki deep state should find increasingly difficult to do and which it must be made to admit it cannot do. Thus, Pakistan should be effectively delegitimized as a nation-state. So far, the TSP Qabila has used its status as a nation state as good cover for its operations as a nerve center of international criminal-politics nexus. But the tables should be turned, so that its quasi-status as a nation-state is used only to quarantine it internationally, while we justify regular patrols and other interventions and independent relations with regional players (Baluchis, etc). India must justify this to the international community, as well as to the co-opted or favoured segments inside Paki society.

-1. India's peace initiatives should not in any way cede any space, time or resources that will enhance Pakistan's status as an 'organism' in harmony with its natural ecosystem (Bharateeyam).
-2. Nor should India be caught unawares and allow Pakistan some 'wins' as a way to justify its status as a parasitic/predator 'organism' and therefore prove its utility to the 3.5 friends.

That's all. What this will do is to prevent Pakistan's deep state from coming up out of its Condition of Danger, and frustrate the UK elite's attempts at direct control to salvage its godchild. Then Pakistan must sink one Condition down into a Condition of Non-Existence. In Pakistan's case, this means that it is now simply not fulfilling its original purpose and role - that of a successful foil state. Even if its deep state jihadi segment thinks it is a ghazi, all its other 3.5+ clients do not see any reality in that. That is the condition of Non-Existence for Pakistan.

Once that is done, then the UK's sordid great "game" can become more interesting and even boomerang on the UK and anyone who lends an ear to the UK's "experts".

For reference, X-posting from TSP thread:

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... e-of-India
The rise of India
GHussa in H Zaidi

Even a very brief description of the different contours of India’s power can hardly be complete without bringing Pakistan in the picture

Its far more true the other way round. Pakistan has proved that it is not truly an organism in any sense as long as it remains inimical to its own stem - India (and that inveterate enmity is in its nazariya and fourfathers). But India does not have that identity issue. It is Pakistan that needs India's foolish generosity to increase its status as a legitimate organism.

An unstable Pakistan will put Indian security at risk, while détente with Islamabad will re-allocate precious resources from military purposes to social spending. Not only that, it will help New Delhi see a bigger picture befitting an aspiring great power. Not to speak of the potential commercial benefits that improved Indo-Pak ties promise.Therefore, a stable, prosperous and friendly Pakistan is in India’s own interest.

This is what RAPEs are trying to bargain for right now, in order to extricate not just the Paki civil society, but even its deep state from a condition of Danger. They want India to make some material flows towards ceding some civilizational space/resources that will help Pakistan to retain its claim to being an organism or at least a legitimate nation-state. Instead, what India needs to do is to further cut off inflows to Pakistan via any parasitic method. India needs to delegitimize more and more of Pakistan's area, just the way the US/NATO has done on the other border. Exposing more and more Pakistan's false claim to being a nation-state will open the way for not just Indian non-state actors, but also state agencies and patrols to regularly enter enter Pakistan in order to "help" its core state maintain law and order. Instead, so far it has been Pakistan which has been sending NSA's into India. This needs to stop - and be reversed. Insha'Allah the day must come when every Paki "Lashkar e Chichora" needs to constantly be on the run from Indian patrols. This can be done by India constantly offering a Drone-acharya style hand of "co-operation" to help Pakistan - which means "assistance" to handle security and law and order issues that a nation-state must be responsible for as a member of the international community, while ceding no material "nutrition" that will increase its status as an organism. Thus, the Dronacharya hand of co-operation must keep all other flows to Pakistan - economic, educational, etc - below a maximum threshold, one that will make minimal difference to the down-stat indicators.

[shiv]

This is what RAPEs are trying to bargain for right now, in order to extricate not just the Paki civil society, but even its deep state from a condition of Danger. They want India to make some material flows towards ceding some civilizational space/resources that will help Pakistan to retain its claim to being an organism or at least a legitimate nation-state. Instead, what India needs to do is to further cut off inflows to Pakistan via any parasitic method.

I agree with this assessment, but one major hurdle that I see is as follows. It is the inability of strategists to think outisde the box into which they have confined themselves. Long ago on BRF we realized that the media have a set of stock phrases that they dip into and publish when speaking of India and Pakistan - like "Arch rivals", "nuclear flashpoint", "Kashmir issue", "Human rights" "Pakistan accuses India" "India accuses Pakistan" etc

But more, and more, and more I am beginning to see that schools of strategic studies, think tanks and university courses in international relations have also boxed themselves in with the same old cliched and predictable literature that every analyst and strategist keeps repeating with no new insight and the same old deep ignorance of the actual dynamics between India and Pakistan

That is what prompted me to make this comment which started off the thought process that made me create this thread

What crap do they teach in military and international relations colleges nowadays? People read some shit and recycle it in article after article

Now here is Michael Krepon from a few days ago doing the same thing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/05/opini ... .html?_r=0

The safest route to reduce nuclear dangers on the subcontinent is through concerted efforts to improve relations between Pakistan and India. The surest way to do so is by greatly increasing cross-border trade

Only complete ignorance can make a "well respected" strategic analyst say this. These idiots have made it to the top of policymaking and they don;t have a friggin clue. Krepon is just one famous name from a large bunch of imbeciles manning think tanks worldwide. These people do not understand why trade does not make any difference because they have never understood why Pakistan was created and what thought processes created it and what it survives on. Imbeciles is a kind word for these people. They need to be swept away.

Krepon throws more crap in that article. He says:

A nuclear arsenal built on very weak economic foundations is inherently unstable, which is reason enough for India to pursue sustained and accelerated trade and investment opportunities with Pakistan.

This is complete nonsense. What proof is there that a nuclear arsenal built on weak economic foundations is inherently unstable. Were the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs built and used on weak economic foundations? If not, what other examples of "nuclear instability" exist? These people talk a lot of crap simply because it sound logical like "Poverty causes people to become terrorists"

Krepon is saying "India should give in to nuclear blackmail". Where do these people get their ideas from?

But Krepon is not alone. The whole bunch of people meaning think tanks who come out with articles whose hit count we increase on here are talking a whole lot of crap. And they don't understand the first thing about Pakistan

[Rudradev]

Shiv,

I think it's important that we look beyond the geopolitical context when discussing what "peace" really is supposed to mean.

The commonly understood meaning of "peace" is a binary antithesis to a declared state of "war". That definition is hardly relevant nowadays. When you consider what national life in the 21st century has become, "peace" today is the consensual point of equilibrium to which the citizenry of a nation accustoms itself, along the entire spectrum from Bhutan-like idyllic serenity to all-out conventional military conflict. That point of equilibrium is something different in the US, the UK, China, India and even Pakistan. As long as there are no catastrophic challenges (like, say, 9/11 in the USA)-- whatever conditions are commonly agreed upon to represent a state of "peace" in that society will prevail. So it is a stable equilibrium.

We keep hearing that all these initiatives are being taken to promote "peace" with Pakistan. Aman ki Asha, MFN, uninterruptible dialogue and what not. But nobody seems to ask the question... what is that "peace" we are seeking to promote? How is it qualitatively different from the prevailing set of conditions in which Indian citizens now live and function, and have lived and functioned in for the last generation or so? Certain parties are clearly trying to sell this idea of "peace" as something we must make concessions to Pakistan in exchange for... but what is that idea other than a mere sentimentalized abstraction?

In geopolitical terms, India has enjoyed uninterrupted "peace" (or, what is consensually agreed upon by the Indian citizenry to represent "peace") since 1971. There has been a contained state of war (Kargil) and a military mobilization (Parakram) but even those are now more than a decade in the past! A huge proportion of India's population is too young even to remember these events, let alone the last time when we were actually in a state of declared "war".

Now proxy war has been ongoing, of course. It has existed in Punjab, Kashmir, the Northeast and the Maoist Hinterland throughout the last two decades, and increasingly in the rest of India over the last decade. This is not a war where India takes the fight to the enemy, however.

What this proxy war means for the State is a need to maintain increased vigilance and to engage in essentially defensive counterterrorism and counterinsurgency strategies. What it means for the common Indian citizen is a threat of terrorist attacks impinging on daily life.

But is this the same as "real" war, in terms of the psychosocial impact it has on Indian citizens? Not at all. It is just something we have grown used to. We don't stop doing business or working hard at our jobs or planning long-term futures for our families on the basis of this proxy war. Yes, it can happen that we will get blown up while waiting for a bus tomorrow... but all things considered, most Indian citizens in most parts of India have weighed the odds and decided it's not much greater a worry than, say, getting run over by the bus itself, or dying in a house fire, or of some nasty communicable disease. It's a danger, but one we quite easily cope with and get on with our lives in spite of.

That is not the kind of impact a war, real war, has on a national psyche. It is simply one arbitrary grey point along the serenity-hostility spectrum where the consensus among Indian citizens is to get on with our lives, having weighed the risks to daily life after two decades of lived experience. For Indians, this situation that we all currently live with is what we call "peace". In fact, even something as notionally challenging to this equilibrium as 26/11 just wasn't enough to transform the mindset of Indians away from thinking that what we live with right now is basically "peace".

And, to the utter discombobulation of all those "peace" activists who demand concessions to Pakistan, be they Wagah Candle Kissers in Delhi lounges or sanctimonious Non-Proliferation A$$holes at Washington institutions... the state of "peace" that India knows is not something we merely live with. It is something we THRIVE with. We prosper and prosper, achieve greater and greater economic heights, and when we complain of the things that make economic life difficult we talk about scams, inflation and corruption... NOT about the lack of "peace".

So then what are all these initiatives aimed at "talking to Pakistan", "befriending Pakistan", "engaging with Pakistan" etc. supposed to deliver? What is the threat, the Damocles sword hanging over our nation's collective heads that makes us say "we must have Peace with Pakistan"? What will happen if we don't make concessions to Pakistan? On the other hand, what is the promised reward... held out by the Pakis and the "peace" constituency in India and Washington... that is supposed to entice us towards making this "peace"?

I have an answer for this. But it is not a politically correct answer.

According to one of the few strictures of political correctness that apply on BRF, we are not supposed to mention Pakistan and Indian Muslims in the same thread, let alone the same breath. These are two entirely different animals, goes the conventional wisdom. We should never impute the motives of one as explanation for the behaviour of the other, under any circumstances.

Yet it seems increasingly obvious to me that there is a constituency in India which is largely comprised of, and held hostage to, the agenda of some members of the Ashraf Caste of Indian Muslims. Ashrafs are the Muslim Castes who proudly claim descent from a "superior" lineage of foreign pillagers. Ashrafs enjoyed special status under British colonialism, and laid the ideological groundwork for the creation of Pakistan. Unfortunately, even after partition, many sections of the Ashraf Caste did not go to Pakistan and transmute into RAPEs. A very large section of them stayed back in India, and for generations since independence, they have milked the system of state patronage and vote-bank appeasement for maximum profit.

Many members of this Ashraf Lobby occupy influential, suited-booted positions in the media, in law, in industry, and even in government. Other members of this Lobby exercise disproportionate influence over the Ajlafs, or Lower Caste Indian Muslims, by dominating influential nodes of Islamic clergy (such as Dar Ul Uloom Madrassa and Jama Masjid), thug-infested political networks of the hinterland (such as the MIM or Samajwadi Party cadres), and organized criminal syndicates. Still others are active in so-called "intelligensia" circles, masquerading as academics, NGO-operators, social workers or left-wing political activists.

However, in their program vis-a-vis the Indian State and the non-Muslim Indian people, the entire Ashraf Lobby shares a united purpose: the domination of India's resources to benefit themselves in the name of Islam. In this project they share a greater commonality of interest with the Pakistani RAPE than with any group in India, including Indian Ajlaf Muslims (whom they regard as cannon-fodder at best.)

Of late, it has been dawning on this Ashraf Lobby that their 66-year ride on the gravy train may soon be coming to an end. Since Independence they have relentlessly practiced the politics of victimhood; they have jealously hoarded of the benefits of "secular" pandering for their own small sub-sectional sliver of India's Muslim population; and they have constantly blackmailed central governments in Delhi while positioning themselves as the sole guarantors of Indian Muslim mass loyalty to India rather than Pakistan. Yet, over the last two decades, all of these projects have begun to offer steadily diminishing returns.

There are many reasons for this. We can identify several landmarks and trends along the way. Just to name a few: the aftermath of the Shah Bano case. The rise of Hindu political assertiveness as part of the mainstream political landscape. And MOST dramatically, the descent of Pakistan into utter state failure and chaos. Once that great bulwark of Islamic subcontinental nationhood was no longer a credible military threat to India, or a credible alternative to blackmail the GOI with, the Ashraf Lobby was forced to change its tune rapidly.

Today we see a situation where the Ashraf Lobbies on both sides of the Radcliffe line are playing good cop-bad cop with the Indian government. But the cop roles have switched.

Earlier, the Indian Ashraf Lobby was the good cop... making sure that India's privileged Ashraf Caste received all sorts of government benefits, "first rights on Indian resources" etc. in exchange for keeping the Indian Muslim masses loyal to India rather than Pakistan. Meanwhile the Pakistani Ashraf Lobby, or RAPE, acted as "bad cop"... threatening war and dismemberment of India under an Islamist banner and wearing a Jernail's uniform.

Today the positions have reversed. Under immense pressure of sanction, isolation and outright ridicule from their former friends in the West, the Pakistani Ashraf Lobby, or RAPEs, have largely switched around to being the "good cop". Their message to GOI is: give concessions to Pakistan on Kashmir, on Siachen, on territory and trade... after all we are all pappi jhappi birathers onlee and we can be one big happy South Asian family onlee.

Meanwhile the Indian Ashraf Lobby have compensated for the current weaknened state of the RAPEs, by becoming the bad cops. Thanks to the Karachi project on the one hand, and Manmohan Singh's initiatives on the other, India's official policy has become NOT to blame Pakistan for acts of terrorism within India, but rather to blame "indigenous" groups like the "Indian Mujahedin" as if they were operating in a vacuum... or even worse, to blame fictitious "Saffron Terrorists" wherever possible.

So here is how all this connects to my original thoughts about "peace".

The Indian Ashraf Lobby is essentially holding out a veiled threat against the Indian nation. Give concessions to Pakistan. Give them territory and respectability and economic freebies. Do this in the name of "peace"... because WE have the power to mobilize, not Pakistani jihadis, but Indian Muslim Masses against the Indian state and people.

In recent times, with the imminent decline of the Congress Party's political fortunes signaling a possibly permanent and abrupt end to the Ashraf Lobby's gravy train, the "veiled" threat is no longer so "veiled." It is coming out in the open. It is telling us that failure to continue with the "peace" process vis-a-vis Pakistan, i.e. a cessation of giveaways and handouts from India to Pakistan, will lead to a sustained, dramatic worsening of the security situation within India, through the action of Indian Muslims. It will destroy the level of "peace" to which the Indian citizenry has consensually accustomed itself over the last two decades.

Please read this article by an Ashraf Lobby bad cop threatening what will happen if Narendra Modi (or anyone else who might stop the GOI's Pakistan appeasement program) becomes Prime Minister. It is laid out as "fiction" but the message is loud and clear. If you stop giving Pakistan what they want, we will make sure that Indian Muslims rise up and wage war against the Indian Government. I would like to thank the gentleman who wrote this article a million times for finally going one step too far and lifting the veil from before our eyes.

The worst (ever) case scenario


By OMAR AKHTAR

Published: Sun, 07 April 2013 09:21 PM



The article is intended to highlight the danger of power-grabbing, communal politics. It is a work of fiction.


It is 2014 in India. The Hindu-nationalistic IJP wins the election by a slender majority on its own, obviating the need for coalition, the first such time in India since 1984. The upper middle class votes in droves for the party, fed up with the corrupt Conference Party-led government in New Delhi. Led by the charismatic, Mahendra Bodi, the IJP starts on the path to, ‘repay the debt of Bharat Mata.’

Soon after election, Mr Bodi stops all negotiations with Pakistan, effectively ending talks on enhancing trade and cooperation between the two warring neighbours. ‘Kashmir is not up for discussion,’ thunders Mr Bodi in his first address to Parliament. He asks Parliament to remember the 1994 resolution which clearly stated that the ‘dispute’ was over ‘Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK).’ The statement sends shockwaves in Kashmir. Protests are held. Arrests are made. Curfew is imposed. Mr Bodi calls on the Army and Paramilitary to fend off the protestors, and deal with the situation with an ‘iron fist.’ In a bloody trip to the Valley, Mr Bodi, recalling his march in 1992 to Srinagar to raise the Indian flag in Lal Chowk, dares the ‘Pakistanis’ to come and meet him in Lal Chowk. A protest march is fired upon. Dozens are killed. Kashmir witnesses its bloodiest day in years. The curfew continues. Kashmiris in other parts of India hold marches in solidarity with their Kashmiri brethren. The protests are broken up, many are arrested. Some are convicted of ‘terrorist’ and ‘anti-national’ acts under a new law introduced to specifically counter protests against Security Forces deployed in disturbed areas. The JKNC and PDP legislators from the Valley, aghast at the brutal treatment, call on Mr Bodi to hold back his forces. The Assembly is dismissed. The State Elections of 2014 are postponed. The harsh winter of 2014-15 is like a particularly severe winter 25 years ago, with the daily doses of killings, curfews, and crackdowns. The press, one of the strongest institutions in Kashmir, is gagged for months. The internet shuts down. An eerie silence descends upon the Valley…



The ‘Grand Plan’ was to obliterate Muslims. But the Plan falters. The Muslims are prepared. They close ranks. The battles make the Syrian and Iraqi Civil Wars look like child’s play. Brave last stands are made. The Battle of India begins. The Day of Judgement is definitely near…



In a surprising development, Muslim organisations from Hyderabad to Kerala and Uttar Pradesh hold solidarity marches, to call on the government to refrain from imposing harsh measures against the population in Kashmir. Clashes erupt between parallel marches in some major cities, between the Muslim marches and a particularly virulent Hindu organisation organising marches on the same day. The Police, instructed to watch and do nothing, do exactly that. Communal clashes see dozens killed, most of them Muslims, in systematic attacks against businesses and professionals, in a few days, reminiscent of a sad chapter in India’s history when a ‘Nero’ stood watching as his State burnt. Political parties, led by Congress, call for peace, but blame the Muslims for ‘starting’ the trouble.

A few weeks later in 2015, bomb blasts occur outside the offices of the Hindu organisation blamed for most of the violence. In three hours, twelve blasts destroy the organisations’ offices in different cities throughout India. Hundreds are killed when buildings collapse on them in a major city, dozens more when another bomb blast occurs at the moment rescuers are trying to save the injured.

Mr Bodi goes on TV. ‘To every action there is a reaction.’ A theory he had propounded a few years ago to justify carnage against Muslims in a different era. The reaction happens. Systematically, almost to perfection, targeted killings and bomb blasts occur in succession in every state ruled by the IJP. The Police suspected to have played a role in the acquisition of the bomb-making materials. Some Muslim Officers are dismissed for having alerted Muslims before the blasts. The plan was perhaps hatched a long time before the spark. Mosques, Shrines, Madrassas, and major places of congregation for Muslims are targeted. Historical monuments are severely damaged. Thousands die in an orgy of violence.

‘Follow the Burmese model,’ say some particularly savage votaries of the violence. ‘The result is a foregone conclusion,’ says one member of the Hindu organisation. ‘We have to restore Hindu-rule. These Muslims are invaders, they have to be killed.’

But the Muslim middle-class, now fully aware of its identity and conscious of its religious duties, responds in an unexpected way. The ‘Grand Plan’ was for them to be pushed to refugee camps, their property taken away from them, and ultimately, like advised by the late founder of a party with a strong base in Maharashtra, ‘Remove the Muslims from the electoral lists.’ The Plan falters. The Muslims are prepared. They close ranks. From the ghettos of large cities, the small towns in the Gangetic plains; from seminaries in the North, to the colleges in the South; from large mosques to large Shrines, the Muslims fight to death. The battles make the Syrian and Iraqi Civil Wars look like child’s play. Brave last stands are made. The Battle of India begins. The Day of Judgement is definitely near…

Please read and realize exactly what this Ashraf Caste is saying. FORGET about the "Narendra Modi" angle (that is just a convenient hook and has no bearing on the message).

The author of this article is saying that raising the Indian flag in Srinagar, and reiterating the 1994 Parliamentary Resolution that POK is part of India... will be enough to invoke a response from INDIAN Muslims, across the nation, that will make the Iraqi and Syrian Civil Wars look like "child's play."

THIS is the threat to "peace" that we are being intimidated into averting by making concessions to Pakistan. The threat is not anything Pakistan can do directly... but rather, the promise of a jihad waiting to happen by Indian Muslims, under the leadership of Ashraf Caste Indian Muslims, against the Indian nation.

There is only one way to guarantee the perpetuation of our current form of "peace" in India, and it has nothing to do with Pakistan. What is needed is to liberate the Ajlaf Castes, who form 85% of the Indian Muslim population, from the poisonous dominance of the Ashrafs. And to do away with the blackmailing Ashraf Lobby by any and all necessary means.

[shiv]

Rudradev - that is a serendipitous piece of out of box analysis. I had not looked at it that way. There is definitely something there. Need to mull over it - I think there may be something to add.

[RajeshA]

Rudradev ji,

great piece!

The Ashrafs are a caste of their own. They don't have the equivalent Indian Jati as the Ajlafs do. It is the Ajlaf's jati legacy which allows him to return to the fold!

[SBajwa]

amazing insight!! Thanks Rudradev Sir!! Keep up the good work.

[RajeshA]

Rudradev ji,

Here is one of your earliest posts addressed to me - some three years ago.

After 3 years, today I see the use of this strategy.

1) One needs a strict separation between the Ashrafs and the Ajlafs. While the Ashrafs would remain Deobandi, Ajlafs should move to Ahmadiyya.

2) Secondly whereas Ashrafs have no Indic Jāti, Ajlafs have Indic Jāti, and they need to reconnect again to that.

3) There needs to be vigorous contact between the Bharatiyas and the Ajlafs, especially at the Jāti level, pulling them further the later into the Bharatiya mainstream.

4) The Ashrafs need to be encouraged to emigrate to Britain - the world's asuric junkyard!

[Prem]

Mayye Ni Bharat Mayye , Tuu Serpents Dhuddh Pilayya :
Children Terre Kanhanda Nahi, kehnde Arabi Piyo Da Jayya .
Islamist Bimari Ik Aisse Laggi, Owdha Illaaj Na Simple Paaya .
Ik Goli Huun Aisee Khilayo , Bimar Bimari Donna nu Karre jo Jaayya .

( Inn Ashrafo sey kehdo, Pakistan Jaa Basse: Warna Dho Gaj Jammen Bhi Nahi Milege Daffan ke Waasste )
It is very obvious that Islamist problem has roots, cause and solution in satisfying this minute percentage of Ashrafs. Now if the identification of this Core Virus is correct then simple removal of them from the soil earns multilevel of benefits.

[Abhijit]

But RD saar, what do the Indian ashrafs gain by forcing GoI to make concessions to paki RAPEs? How does the Indian ashraf gravy train benefit by whatever crumbs we throw at pakis? the ishrafs (Indian ashrafs) gravy train is mainly based on two currencies - money and power (just like any other group). paki rape concessions do not (at least as far as i can see) contribute to ishrafs bank balance. nor does it significantly contribute to further power over Indian ajlafs (ijlafs) because paki rape concessions don't even register in the daily lives of ijlafs. ijlafs have been under the tutelage of ishrafs for millenia - that hold is significantly loosening due to all the economic progress made by various ijlafs in IT-Vity etc. But that hold cannot be strengthened by throwing crumbs at paki rapes.
If India stops throwing crumbs to pakis, the ishrafs cannot raise the bogey of 'islam khatarein mein' just because pkais are pissed off. the mango abdul ijlaf is not going to be bothered by that. JMHO.

[ramana]

Some idiots think that their well being is safe as long as there is a jackal roaming the village borders for the malik will keep them near. Works as long as INC is malik.

You figure out who is who.

[Prem]

Some idiots think that their well being is safe as long as there is a jackal roaming the village borders for the malik will keep them near. Works as long as INC is malik.You figure out who is who.

Gali Ka Kutta , Chorron Ka Cherra

The Resident Ashraff is trying to show to Pakii that the Islamic dream is kept alive that they can still repeat ,threaten DAD=Direct Action Day. This is like a sick dog across the pond Milaying Taal MeY Taal with the dying dog on other side barking Jehad Dhun. PSers have been encouraging this stinking treacherous attitude of Islamists under the guise of minority rights . This guy deserve to be awarded main slot in Weekly Royale Chambal Dangal in Tihar Vihar where he can enjoy the Direct Action Day and Night.

[ramana]

Jhujar, Your words need a painting. Its so true.

[shiv]

There is a constituency in India that call for concessions to Pakistan and friendship with Pakistan. The people who ask for these things may have a right to do that - perhaps some will gain personally because they have relatives or friends across the border. Another set might believe that "peace is good".

But India the nation has to benefit. To use a crude analogy, smearing yourself with dung must bring tangible benefits to most Indians and no drawbacks. Rhinos do that because it benefits them. But Rhinos will tear you a new one if you mess with them.

On the other hand "friendship" with Pakistan has brought benefits to a very narrow segment of people and it has led to suffering and death for a large number of Indians who harboured no ill will towards shitland to start with.

The argument made in favour of concessions to the Islamic Republic of Terroristan is that by not being friendly with Pakistan no one benefits. But with friendship, at least a few Indians will benefit even if a few die. This sounds like reservation to me. Let Pakistan keep hating and hitting Indians, but a few Indians will benefit anyway and the benefits they get are touted as a great advantage to the nation. Rudradev's Ashrafs and their apologists theory fits right in here

No. Why not maintain continuous hostility? We can build up a whole economy that way. Build up a military industry that is designed to develop high technology to cause pain to enemies. Indians feel pain whether or not we are friendly with Pakistan. The selfishness of a few Indians who seek a better relationship with Crapistan should be sacrificed for the single minded purpose of knowing where we are going. We must arm ourselves to hit back at Pakistan and its supporters. Friendship and goodness does not work. We are not demons or an aggressive people. But we would be stupid if we are unable to see how forces inimical to India come together because it suits them.

For example the moronic media of India reported yesterday that the US has said "LeT is one of the most dangerous terrorist groups in soothasia" What the fuk? What else did they expect? Just 3 days ago the same moronic Indian media reported that Pakistan had an agreement with the US to allow drone strikes in Pakistan as long as training camps for anti-India terrorists and Pakistan's Indian specific nuclear weapons program are not targeted by the US. And guess what, the US agreed.

Continuous hostility and preparation for war will be good for employment, industry and technology. No doubt some imbeciles will bring up a Hitler analogy. But hey its not Hitler. The US and China too do exactly that. Why would it be wrong to emulate the great US of A. No?

[RamaY]

^ that "India has to benefit" argument is hijacked by defining what is "India".

[Prem]

How do they explain Islam forbid perrnanent peace with Kuffaar? Per Hudna, 10 years are the maximum time period for no war treaty betweern Muslims and Non Muslims.

[shiv]

^ that "India has to benefit" argument is hijacked by defining what is "India".

Not really. That is a torn-shirt open fly argument that you have no business falling for unless you are yourself confused about India.

In both cases (concessions to Pakistan and no concessions to Pakistan) Indians are getting killed

But in one case (concessions to Pakistan) some Indians, but not all, are benefiting. This argument is used to promote friendship. Your "What is India?" confusion suits this constituency and your confusion benefits them.

I am saying that since Indians are suffering in both cases, the lop-sided advantage gained by a few people due to friendship with Pakistan is unfair to the many who do not benefit.

We need to look for something else. I am suggesting that that "something else" should be technology and military development of the nation based on the reality that friendship or no friendship with Pakistan still exposes India to attacks. We need to stop being confused about Pakistan. We need to stop being confused about who is an enemy. We need to stop being confused about who are "we" and 'What is India?" . The answer is obvious. Pakistan is not India. Pakistan is an enemy. They do not need friendship and concessions. We can utilize their enmity productively by building up a military tech industry to screw them and all their sponsors.

If you still want to argue about "What is India" , you have a problem. Please discuss it with other people who are confused. If you are not confused and you know what is India, what are you arguing about?

[Sravan]

All these theories are nice. What remains to be a blatant fact after reading years of geo-political dialogue across these forums is that India doesn't define what India represents. Indians do not own their history and are confused about their own culture. The real problem is obfuscation of knowledge. It is not which caste in India that is responsible for what that is the main intrinsic problem, it is the ineptitude of the individual to define who he is. We Indians like to classify and group people into categories and exclaim that certain people are forward thinking and certain groups should be supressed. This is very dangerous thinking and only fuels further class division and separatism.

Even a simple separation of right and wrong is obfuscated. Ambiguity is the biggest enemy of India. This ambiguity introduces a fuzzy principle of right and wrong that is being exploited by every individual or group of individuals for their own purposes in oppressing others. This creates a system of snake and ladder where one measures their success on suppressing others. There are two kinds of people in the world, one that builds value and another whom tries to exploit others. In India, I am not yet confident that the individual seeks to build value more than he/she tries to exploit others for their own benefit. In fact individuals who seeks to build value are considered naive or not street smart. Parents encourage classism and getting ahead of others rather than uplifting those arround you.

I'll give you an example. We have a tremendous waste of human capital because we prefer to have servants drive us around and wash our clothes or do some other remedial tasks. Indian's adjusted to our lack of infrastructure by resorting to depending on human capital. This creates a class system where an individual might be overly egotistical in terms of class status or lack the confidence to be seen as an equal admi. A pivot in realizing how much human capital we are wasting is step one to first giving the individual the self confidence to speak up about right and wrong. When Indians consider themselves as equal citizens, then we can speak of nation building. Solve the intrinsic problem of valuing individual identity and self of belonging to a larger nation.

Once this pre-requisite is fullfilled, the culture of exploitation will have less leverage over the current political system. Then Indians can implement possible change as a responsible power. Now let's pivot to dealing with Pakistan.

Assuming the individual in India is empowered, the rights and value of human life will have a higher political weight to political lobby groups. There is momentum in this regard, ex. the recent case in Delhi, ex. the importance given to the fisherman in Kerala. This is the first time that governance is taking accountability of human life. The supreme court ruling on the Novartis patent issue is also another example where the importance of saving lives is given preference as opposed to succumbing to lobby groups.

There will be an inflex point in Indian culture as we gain more economic wealth where the common citizen will stop putting up with the bullshit of misgovernance. The goals of every Indian should be to accelerate that process rather than blame an entire blanket population. Lead by example and enhance rule of law, so this anti-national tamasha doesn't have any room for maneuvering. The class division and separatism is what drives a wedge between the Republic of India.

Step two, establish a uniform civil code. No subsidized preferences to any individual on the basis of religion or caste. Change reservation model to one based on economic standing rather than caste background. A better option would be to increase capacity that reservation isn't required. Improve the coherent national identity, such that others can't have the liberty of defining what that is.

Step three, invest in indigineous defense heavily. Over amplify a response if we get attacked. Be quick and thorough with regards to the traitors. Put a 10 million dollar bounty on the mastermind of the attacks. Reward patriotism, punish for treason.

With confidence in a political choice, comes better voting. When citizens vote for the Nation's interest, the governance improves. How many of you can vouch for supporting a campaign for a solid candidate vs abstaining from voting or succumbing to the lesser of two evils? That is the reason why Americans don't put up with bullshit misgovernance and that is why they will dispatch an entire contigent to save one citizen if need be. America is no golden egg with perfect governance, but they do fear the citizens. The only reason the governance in America is degrading is because it is deviating from the core principals it established centuries ago. But the main point is that the American government still fears it's citizens. Citizens have the right to overthrow the government as a basic right, if the government loses the confidence of the people. Government should be scared of its people. If India accomplishes this, expect every other goal to be easy pickings. I do admit, that is why American governance prefers to keep it's citizens dumb regarding geopolitics. They want to avoid the accountability they face at home.

Indians need to make Indian lives more expensive to the Indian government. Lapses in security should result in jail time and exemplary punishments for the politicians. Give all importance to rule of law and raising the value of an Indian life. Cycle out the bottom 10% of poorly performing politicians in any political party. Encourage entrepreneurship and innovation.

India first needs to earn the confidence of it's citizens prior to expecting it from abroad. Let's focus and solve that first, then we will have a strong voice that will be respected. If you feel that the above can't be accomplished... then take a step back and isolate the intrinsic flaws in our societal culture and fix them so it's possible. Self criticism is step one to improving efficiency and building confidence in the methodology of nation building. Focus on doing what's right versus what sounds good politically or the easy option. There are no shortcuts to superpowerdom.

[RamaY]

Shiv ji,

I am just presenting a possible reason for people doing Aman-Ki-orgy. Probably they have a definition of India that requires compulsory love with pakis?

[shiv]

Shiv ji,

I am just presenting a possible reason for people doing Aman-Ki-orgy. Probably they have a definition of India that requires compulsory love with pakis?

I do not think anyone promotes love with Pakis because "india" will benefit. I believe the "india will benefit" is a secondary excuse which is tagged on to the primary personal benefit these people gain in terms of their ideologies or personal relationshjps.

Indians who promote friendship with Pakistan are basically ignorant and have a narrow view of "peace" and how "everyone benefits from peace". They know nothing about Pakistan although they may have friends and relatives there. Having friends and relatives is stated as a reason for "knowing Pakistan". The argument is as ignorant as saying that you must get raped to know rape is bad.

[ramana]

RamaY let's try to list Indian groups or interests that benefit from piss with TSP.

[Lalmohan]

shiv - re krepon and co. - in my opinion - all of them make a fundamental error on the core of their rationale/logic. that is about the nature of islamic states/powers. they assume that states like pakistan are like the white-christian, dharmic and sinic cultures - where commerce and economics takes precedence over military - and that the logic of benefit and growth will outweigh the negatives of war - and war is a means to an end. this has held more or less true for most other world cultures. in the islamic model - war and plunder and domination take precedence over other models - as a fundamental part of the wiring - it is "the ends". so even if you give them economics, they will revert to war - it is inevitable. therefore you can only buy temporary peace through giving benefit/aid/alms - you have to vanquish them militarily before they (temporarily) give up their conquest. i have a hunch that genghiz khan understood this - which to me explains his special barbarity towards the islamic kingdoms that he conquered and annihilated, including the brutal slaying of the caliph

[ramana]

LM, I think Crapon and other NPAs are all extensions of the US state policy apparatus. Only they couch it in terms of world piss and otehr global initiatives. What is Crapon key or core message?

India should give up nukes and throw in Cashmere to TSP for extra measure.
Isnt that the US policy also?


Each of these experts has same core message except its couched in different garb to find like minded fellows in India.

[RamaY]

IMO there are three kinds of "Art of Pyar" (Aman ki Asha) strategists

First group is the "Families without borders". I do not know if these families did not relocate to India/Pakistan during partition for financial (have significant assets on both sides of the border) or religious reasons (have religious affiliation on both sides of the border). I cannot understand why a family decided to leave some of it in a (real & perceived) hostile nation.

Second group is the Mughalai-political system. This group has interdependent political and financial interests to keep the majority under their rule. I would put the Paki RAPE class and the Desi Psecular parties in this group.

Third group is the agents of external super-powers. Majority of NGOs fall in this category.

Now the question is what is the interest of Congress System? Who do they represent, 2/3 group?

[Lalmohan]

ramana - you are dealing with the symptom, i am refering to the root cause

[RamaY]

shiv - re krepon and co. - in my opinion - all of them make a fundamental error on the core of their rationale/logic. that is about the nature of islamic states/powers. they assume that states like pakistan are like the white-christian, dharmic and sinic cultures - where commerce and economics takes precedence over military - and that the logic of benefit and growth will outweigh the negatives of war - and war is a means to an end. this has held more or less true for most other world cultures. in the islamic model - war and plunder and domination take precedence over other models - as a fundamental part of the wiring - it is "the ends". so even if you give them economics, they will revert to war - it is inevitable. therefore you can only buy temporary peace through giving benefit/aid/alms - you have to vanquish them militarily before they (temporarily) give up their conquest. i have a hunch that genghiz khan understood this - which to me explains his special barbarity towards the islamic kingdoms that he conquered and annihilated, including the brutal slaying of the caliph

I agree.

Pakistan/Islam thrives on fear, loot, hatred, conflict and chaos.
West/Christianity thrives on materialism, exploitation and greed.
Bharat/Hinduism thrives on peace, sustainability, knowledge, pursuit for truth.

That is why Pakistan/West cannot have peace with Bharat. The peaceniks in India are nothing but people with the characteristics that reflect Pakistan and West.

That is why the rise of Bharat is not in Pakistan+Western interests and Peace is unlikely anytime.

[dada]

Politically (read militarily) pakistanis must be forced to confront & repudiate their values (which they have been imbued through centuries old brainwashing by their culture) Their militaristic concepts must be reduced (by themselves not by indians or americans ) to their essential, inescapable meanings.No one in pakistan should be able to think of "war" without bringing to mind smoke, death & total destruction.
it is similar to the experience of japan which was totally exhausted & defeated after the hiroshima / nagasaki bombings . This experience and its concrete meaning was absorbed by japan.It allowed japan to grow into a peaceful, productive society by absorbing the NEW values they were forced to adopt. It will take a full fledged nuclear war to effect that change !

[Prem]

"Jamaat in Bangladesh has all the rights to ask for Sharia laws"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 4dj4#t=51s

Another K9 chimes in the Islamist chorus. IMHO, threat level moves to DEFCON4 level.

[Theo_Fidel]

The question is one of memory.

We remember both our victories and defeats.
Islamic folks only remember their victories not their mind numbing defeats.
The shia do have some tradition of remembering defeats but then they are not really muslim.

Even 1971 is not remembered as defeat. IIRC they have a victory day to commemorate it.
Other than some random comments no effort is made to remember it.

For all their bravado to this day they remain confined to the desert lands of their origin.

[devesh]

For all their bravado to this day they remain confined to the desert lands of their origin.

which world are you living in?

[akashganga]

Shiv Ji, Rudradev Ji,

Very intelligent posts from you guys. Good work.

I do not have any hopes on ashrafs or high caste muslims of the subcontinent. They consider themselves as descendents of arabs or mughals. Then fantasize mughlistan. I have some hope in the rest of the muslims of India. If arab and islamic world start descending into chaos as is already happening in many parts followed by improvement in economy and standard of living in India, many of the non ashrafs in India will identify more and more with bharatiya sanskriti.

There can be no peace wherever their are muslims. Muslims wish peace be upon their prophet whenever they invoke the prophet. For the rest of humans including other muslims they have only jehad.

[Prem]

The big question is how do you remove the high level inroads Asharafs have made into our current compromised ruling dispensation? The treat to internal security is much higher than commonly understood, acknowledged. We will see more and more of the Fuddu Islamist threatining articles as now the signal have gone out to be more and more vocal to test the water .

[shiv]

WHOA!! Hold your horses folks!!!!

This thread is gradually shifting to Islamism, for which we have a separate thread.

I ask that people who want to post their views on Islamism and its attraction to Muslims should do so on the Islamism and Islamophobia thread, or some other suitable thread.

On BRF there is almost no one who is unaware of the issues created by Islamism. The thrust of this thread is specifically aimed at Indians who want "peace" with Pakistan.

The premise of this thread is that there can be no peace with Pakistan for a minimum of 25 years from today, maybe longer. The reason for this is partly or wholly Islamism. But what I am trying to point out is that the constant cry that Islamism is to blame shuts out a segment of Indians who ask that Islamism be ignored, or that it isn't too bad etc. By shifting the focus of this thread to Islamism we are getting into and endless parallel track argument about why Islamism is bad and whether it is bad or not. This is all old hat stuff and must not be repeated.

The point here is that even if Islamism were declared by everyone including all of us on BRF to be a harmless bunny that requires love and understanding, it is a practical impossibility to have peace with Pakistan simply because you cannot change Pakistani hate propaganda and anti-Indian anti-Hindu mindsets, and you cannot wind down the military. This is part A of my thesis.

Part B of my thesis is a follow on from the above unfortunate facts. I am asking that we make a virtue out of this reality and utilize our resources to build up a military technological base that is designed to kick not just Islamists, but even non Islamist powers who support Islamists against India.

Part B of my thesis gets completely sidelined when we continue to bash Islamism, which we have done for ages on many threads and can continue to do so on older existing threads. Even if Islamism is a lovable bunny, the reality of Pakistan and its sponsors demands that we stop talking peace and be ready for nastier wars. Peacniks in India sideline the argument by saying that we are warmongers because we are Hindutvadis who are Islamophobes. By continuing to bash Islamism we have successfully been suckered by the torn shirt open fly argument of pappi jhappi WKK peaceniks who have changed the focus from the geopolitical reality of shitland to the topic of Islamophobia versus Hindutva, This is not about Islamophobia. You can love Islam but the reality of Pakistan means that every word I have writen in the first post is still correct. So please cut short the I hate Islam/I love Islam arguments which only help WKKs change the focus, and stick to secular reality. This is the way Hindutva gets suckered and made to look like bigoted jackasses by sickulars - by a change of argument that an understanding of the reality of Pakistan is somehow a hatred of Islam. You can love or hate Islam, but that has little to do with harsh reality regarding Pakistan and peace.

I hope readers are able to understand the point I am trying to make. You guys have successfully shifted the focus of this thread from the reality of Pakistan to how to deal with Indian Ashrafs.

Please PLEASE STOP!

[Rudradev]

Shiv,

I do see your point. General convulsions about Islamism become too much of a shotgun approach to the problem. However, we can't fully address the problem if we don't talk about ideology... and in this case, the ideology is not Islamism per se (although it uses Islamism like a conjoined twin's endocrine system). It is Nazariya e Pakistan, or NeP.

NeP says that all of the Indian subcontinent must revert to an imagined Muslim domination that (fictitiously) existed under the Mughals before the British came. It is the reason behind all that you ascribe to Pakistan that makes it unwise for us to seek "peace" with it... political supremacy of the army, inculcation of anti-Hindu hatred in the educational system etc. The West, in fact, supports these facets of NeP even as they actively fight against other strains of Islamism directed against them.

Certainly, NeP is specifically a Paki thing, not an Islamist thing per se. If you ask a Muslim in Oman or Jordan or Morocco whether the whole Indian subcontinent should be ruled by Islam... he may even say "yes", if the price to him is no greater than checking a box on a survey. But apart from a very small minority, people from these other Muslim nations will pay no more than lip service, if at all, to the idea. It is only within the Indian subcontinent that millions of Muslims feel an ideological affinity to NeP, to such an extent that they would engage in organized violence willingly in support of the cause. They are motivated not only by the fact of being Muslim but by the adherence to a specific historical narrative centered on the Indian subcontinent, as an article of faith. So our focusing on "Islamism" conflates the specific issue we have regarding "peace with Pakistan" into some much wider and blurrier picture.

So I am in agreement with you to leave Islamism out of it. But we cannot leave NeP out of it. And the principal aspect of NeP is that it has adherents both in India and in Pakistan; its adherents didn't all go to Pakistan, and many of them are well-ensconced at many levels (business, industry, government, media, clergy, politics, organized crime) in India.

They are a wealthy and powerful lobby who hold the interests of the vast majority of Indian Muslims to ransom. They are (BOTH in Pakistan AND India... witness Farooq Kathwari, Omar Khalidi and Ghulam Nabi Fai) backed by the West.

Now as you say, there are certain parties in India... not just the core NeP lobby but WKKs and others... who benefit copiously from the ongoing process of "engaging" with Pakistan in the stated interest of "peace". They continue to benefit while a far larger proportion of Indians lives with deadly danger of Pakistani terrorist attacks.

The WKKs and anti-Hindutvavadis who benefit from this process are able to ignore the Indian wing of the NeP lobby, and sweep their true motivations under the carpet, by claiming that those who oppose efforts to make "peace with Pakistan" are jackasses and bigots. That is exactly as you say.

The need of the hour is to work against the entire set of groups with an agenda to benefit from continuing engagement and accommodation of Pakistan, through OTHER means than raising the Islamism threat (otherwise the agenda-driven groups will demonize us as yahoos who shout "Hindu Dharm Khatre Mein Hai" and say that Jinnah was secular compared to us.)

Yet, in formulating the strategy we cannot ignore that our primary enemy is motivated by NeP; that NeP exists within India; and like it or not, NeP is correlated (if not causatively related) to Islamism. Even if we do not say this publicly (until a strategic opportunity presents itself to bring it out for maximum gain)... in our own minds we must know that this is so.