Artillery: News & Discussion

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shiv
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Pratyush wrote:shiv will say that it is BS considering that it will have 9 kg warhead onlee. :P
Please don't bring me into this.

I see this collaboration between SAAB and Boeing to convert Boeing's research on SDB into money via an MRLS system as a failure of the original air dropped SDB to achieve the kind of popularity, international sales and Boeing stockholder profits that Boeing would like. These fellows are still testing the thing and they are already talking about it as the best thing since Apple Pie or Marilyn Monroe or whatever the best American thing might be.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by NRao »

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

what is the role of the 2nd small roof on top of the main roof? comparing to base FH77 from same angle...there is some additional avionics for the gunner and the muzzle velocity radar. rest looks identical except longer barrel.

Image
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

also artillery provides fire support when enemy closes in..the red and blue lines are blurred and air power cant be used. its in this scenario that artillery comes into its own. use of air power is expensive in many ways...and except for PGMs not very accurate either. and as someone remarked..artillery can be used in times of hot peace !
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Hitesh »

I read the article that says how Dhanush is improved from the Bofors gun but it only talked about in general sense other than the increase from 39 to 45 and an increase in range. What is the manpower requirement, sustained firing rate, maximum firing rate comparison, types of shells that can be fired, time to deploy guns, scoot and shoot ability, price of gun and spares? I want to see the comparison so we know how much of an improvement that India made with its indigenous gun.

We need 2000s of these, not 400s.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

the rest of params should be same or very similar to the fh77b. its not indigenous in these sense its based on 1000s of drawings given by bofors in late 80s.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Mort Walker »

Hitesh wrote:I read the article that says how Dhanush is improved from the Bofors gun but it only talked about in general sense other than the increase from 39 to 45 and an increase in range. What is the manpower requirement, sustained firing rate, maximum firing rate comparison, types of shells that can be fired, time to deploy guns, scoot and shoot ability, price of gun and spares? I want to see the comparison so we know how much of an improvement that India made with its indigenous gun.

We need 2000s of these, not 400s.
Agree. Now cut the budget for artillery import and put it in local production. The GCF (Gun Carriage Factory) in Jabalpur, MP has been there since the turn of the last century and probably needs funds to upgrade their production capacity. That said, this does look like a positive development for indigenous production.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by nirav »



Must see for guys doubting Arty. Its an old vid but good info on IA Arty ops.

Artys not called "Gods of War" for nothing ;)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

every modern artillery piece has a fire control computer. but capabilities and networking will vary. ideally for a fire mission the co-ordinates whether single or a string of tuples {co-ordinates,num shells on each} will come from the network for the whole battery and the individual FCS will lay the guns onto new bearing and report readiness to fire, followed by working through the list and unloading shells. the local gunner should not have much to do in that scenario of 'networked fire' except monitoring the gun parameters and sending update if the gun has to drop out for a while to cool down or minor repair. the loaders will feed in the shells.

given a co-ordinate the FCS should be able to use muzzle velocity radar, wind sensor, temp sensor, humidity sensor to calculate the appropriate charge to be loaded behind the shell.

even MBTs have wind/temp/humidity sensor.

good brochure on a typical MVR http://www.tech-bel.com/wp-content/uplo ... cation.pdf
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

Do the tests include air dropping from transports? they have been testing precision parachutes too
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

has anyone done 155mm arty piece dropping by parachute ? if the area is so inaccessible that parachute drop is needed, how will they supply the huge number of ammo needed for any reasonable length of time?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by pravula »

Singha wrote:has anyone done 155mm arty piece dropping by parachute ? if the area is so inaccessible that parachute drop is needed, how will they supply the huge number of ammo needed for any reasonable length of time?
Airdrop the ammo. No?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

er, we do not have the transport aircraft to be doing much of that.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:has anyone done 155mm arty piece dropping by parachute ? if the area is so inaccessible that parachute drop is needed, how will they supply the huge number of ammo needed for any reasonable length of time?
In the past artillery pieces have been dismantled and carried manually to inaccessible places - along with ammunition being supplied the same way. That is what is mentioned in accounts of the 1948 war and in that artillery video linked above.

The video linked below (just a few sec) shows a fully fuelled up and armed APC being para dropped by Il 76. In the plains this may be possible but the chances of a parachute missing a small landing area in the mountains is high
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... RYEw#t=144
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:er, we do not have the transport aircraft to be doing much of that.
Not true. There are areas supplied by air alone an that includes fuel, water, food, medical supplies, arms and ammunition. India has a long history of using aircraft to supply inaccessible areas - such as Packets and Caribous. I had three great videos of the transport command that I had uploaded 8 years ago. They had very few hits. I removed them No one on YouTube wants to watch transports. One video of a fighter with rock music in the background will get tens of thousands of hits

Maybe I will edit and reupload
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

But considering our frontage and kind of fire density needed for kargil type problems, its not a feasible soln except in a small localized mode with mainline supply following by road.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

light artillery guns are air dropped that too in parts which are assembled, I guess they are specifically made for that, so is the simplification in assembling in battle field but with our present bofors howitzer, I guess it's not possible so is the reason to acquire M777
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:But considering our frontage and kind of fire density needed for kargil type problems, its not a feasible soln except in a small localized mode with mainline supply following by road.
True. But artillery is typically situated 10-30 km behind the actual fighting line and can usually be placed in a better position for resupply and that sort of firepower is usually a prelude or support for an offensive.

Up in the mountains artillery has been used in a defensive role where a single artillery piece can be placed to pick off anyone who approaches via a road or other access route.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Shaun wrote:light artillery guns are air dropped that too in parts which are assembled, I guess they are specifically made for that, so is the simplification in assembling in battle field but with our present bofors howitzer, I guess it's not possible so is the reason to acquire M777

I am curious about the range of heavy artillery that is fired from a 10,000 foot high perch. I wonder if the shells will travel further. An M777/Bofors class weapon might reach 40-45 km inside Tibet. That would help do an interdiction job that normally only aircraft can do.

A semicircle of 40 km radius (assuming a 40 km range of artillery) would cover a 2500 square km area of territory and nothing would be safe unless they hide behind mountains and do not peep out.

India is practically the only country in the world where an artillery piece can be tested at over 10,000 feet.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

http://www.ipcs.org/article/indo-pak/ro ... y-243.html (august 1999 article)
During the recent decades the performance and range of field artillery has shown dramatic improvements. The length and calibre of the gun barrels have increased considerably. Once acceptable range of 20 km is no longer adequate as most of the modern field guns such as Indian army's Bofor FH-77Bs can boast of maximum range somewhere between 30 to 40 km. But this enhanced range is not at all effective unless credible means of target acquisition and fire control form integral part of the long range field gun. For example during the conduct of Operation 'Vijay', Indian army despite having superior fields gun was almost blinded in the absence of gun locating radar. Whereas Pakistan , despite possessing smaller guns could fire more accurately at times damaging our gun positions since their forces were equipped with these vital radar.

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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Link obtained via a post on DFI
http://sainiksamachar.nic.in/englisharc ... -07/h8.htm
'Shell Shocked' in Kargil

The Regiment of Artillery has covered itself with glory in numerous battlefields, the latest being Kargil. While during World War-I it earned fame at Mesopotamia and France, during World War-II its performance at Bir Hachiem, Gazala, Meiktila and Cassino has been legendary. During the post-Independence wars it also showed its mettle in the operations of 1948, 1962, 1965 and 1971. The battlefields of Chushul, Basantar, Khaki Tekri and Picquet 707, among many others, stand in mute testimony to the fury, zeal and the unflinching devotion to duty of the Gunners. With uncanny ability to rapidly switch from one target to another and, thus, neutralising large areas of the battlefield with heavy concentrations of fire in quick succession, the Artillery has truly lived up to its motto: sarvatra izzat-o-iqbal (everywhere with honour and glory).



The performance of the Artillery units which fought heroically at Kargil in 1999 during operation Vijay was splendid. The Indian Artillery fired over 250,000 shells, bombs and rockets during the Kargil conflict. Approximately, 5,000 ordnance were fired daily from more then 300 guns, mortars and multi-barreled rocket launchers (MBRLs). During the peak period of assaults, on an average, each Artillery battery fired over one round per minute for 17 days continuously. Such high rate of fire over long periods had not been witnessed anywhere in the world since World War-II. The Gunners soon developed blisters on their hands from carrying and loading heavy shells and cartridges incessantly. Very few of them got more than a couple of hours' sleep in 24 hour-cycle.

After the pockets of enemy intrusion were discerned, it emerged that massive and sustained firepower would destroy the intruders' sangars (temporary fortifications made of rocks and boulders) and systematically break their will to fight through a process of attrition. Thus began a unique saga in the history of the employment of Artillery firepower in battle. Artillery fire reduced the enemy's defences to rubble and gradually wore down the enemy's resistance and ultimately broke his will to fight. Additional Artillery regiments were inducted into the Kargil sector to achieve a preponderance of firepower supremacy over the enemy. The Artillery units soon made and coordinated plans for high-intensity fire assaults with infantry battalion and brigade commanders. Counter bombardment (CB) and counter mortar (CM) plans were made and fine-tuned to silence the enemy's guns. Maximum use was made of air photographs to accurately locate enemy gun positions and other key targets deep inside Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK). These were then fired upon relentlessly and damage assessment was carried out through aerial reconnaissance. Meanwhile, the Northern Light Infantry (NLI) troops holding defences on the Indian side of the Line of Control (LoC) were allowed no rest and were kept constantly on edge through continuous harassing fire.



With one hundred guns in concert, Tololing was the first major ridgeline to fall on June 13, 1999 in the Dras sub-sector. Thereafter, Points 4590 and 5140 were captured after several weeks of bitter fighting and simultaneous multi-directional attacks. The 105 mm Indian field guns (IFGs) and 155 mm Bofors medium guns fired in the direct firing role, destroying all visible enemy sangars. The capture of the Tololing complex paved the way for successive assaults to be launched on the Tiger Hill complex from several directions. Within the space of a few days, Point 4700, Knoll and Three Pimples were captured. After a series of multi-directional assaults preceded by accurate and sustained preparatory bombardment by the Artillery, Tiger Hill was captured on July 5. Point 4875 another dominating feature to the west of Tiger Hill, jutting into the Mashko Valley, was captured on July 7. Once again, over one hundred guns delivered murderous fire assaults and over 1,200 rounds of high explosive shell rained down on Tiger Hill in five minutes, causing large-scale death and devastation.

Here again, the Indian Gunners fired their guns audaciously in direct firing role, under the very nose of Pakistani Artillery observation posts (OPs), without regard for personal safety. Even the 122 mm Grad MBRLs were employed in direct firing role. In India's first televised battle, hundreds of shells and rocket warheads impacted on the pinnacle of Tiger Hill in full view of TV cameras and the nation watched in rapt attention. In recognition of the significant contribution made by the Artillery regiments that participated in this battle, Point 4875 was re-named as Gun Hill ' a unique honour bestowed on the Artillery. Due to the massive employment of all available firepower resources to decimate the enemy's defences, 18 Grenadiers, the heroes of Tiger Hill, suffered only a handful of casualties during the final assault.

While the nation's attention was riveted on the fighting in the Dras sector, steady progress was being made in the Batalik sector. In this sector the terrain was much tougher and the enemy was far more strongly entrenched. The containment battle itself took almost a month. Moves to interdict the lines of communications of the intruders were extremely successful in this sector. Artillery OPs were established on dominating heights on the flanks of the intrusions and sustained Artillery fire was brought down on the enemy continuously.



Khalubar was occupied on July 6 after a daring assault led personally by the Colmmanding Officer of 1/11 Gorkha, Col Lalit Rai, and closely supervised by Brig Devinder Singh, a Gunner officer who was at that time Commander, 70 Infantry Brigade. Large quantities of arms and ammunition were captured. These again were significant as the enemy had built defences well and the upper reaches were still snow-bound. Once again Artillery firepower played an important part in softening enemy defences and destroying enemy's battalion headquarters and logistics infrastructure.

Throughout the offensive phase of the Kargil conflict, the Indian Artillery was called upon to respond to emerging situations. The infantry battalions involved in the fighting were the first to acknowledge the immense debt of gratitude that they owe to their Artillery comrades. The then Army Chief, Gen VP Malik said: 'An early military victory in the conflict thrust upon us by Pakistan in the Kargil Sector would not have been possible but for the overwhelming destruction caused by our Artillery and the heavy casualties that our Artillery firepower inflicted on the enemy. The entire artillery campaign, from planning at the inception stage, rapid induction and deployment, evolution of the 100-gun concept in the application of fire, meticulously coordinated fire plans, skilful ammunition management and sustained effort over a period of two months, was efficiently conducted.'

-Col Anil Shorey
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Indian Army has only two Regiments of Artillery which are Parachute qualified - these are the 9 and 17 Parachute Field Regiments. Each of them rotates alternately to the 50 Parachute Brigade. And as the name suggests, these regiments are equipped with 105mm LFG. And are dropped as such from the a/c. They form the organic artillery component of the Para Brigade.

I don't think weight is going to be an issue if someone wants to drop a 155/45 or 52 Cal gun - after all, we drop the 20 tonne+ BMP-2 regularly from our IL-76. It would be more to do with practical aspect of such an operation. Moving ahead, the M777 seems to be a good candidate for replacement of 105mm LFG with these Para Field Regiments.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

shiv wrote: I am curious about the range of heavy artillery that is fired from a 10,000 foot high perch. I wonder if the shells will travel further. An M777/Bofors class weapon might reach 40-45 km inside Tibet. That would help do an interdiction job that normally only aircraft can do.<SNIP>
This is the exact issue which IA faced when artillery was inducted for operations in Siachen. The shell goes much farther due to less air density and attendant reduction in drag. The firing tables have to be reworked to take care of these aspects. And this is where modern fire control systems come real handy. They reduce the work load drastically allowing firing solutions to be prepared in minutes.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

what we probably need to target such strong hilltop fortifications is a gigantic accurate 10,000lb FAE bomb with some ability to glide accurately after being dropped off the back ramp of a C130/C17 at 25,000ft, using INS+GPS fixes. ofcourse their range in kashmir will be more limited as the base level itself is 10,000ft and tiger hill types are even higher, but still a few km ought to be sufficient for the launch a/c to stay out of manpad range and turn away after launch...esp at night they should be safe enough.

so a downsized MOAB should be well within our capability for such special needs.

a couple of them dropping in together ought to be sight to behold. follow it up with a couple of incendiary models to burn all the escaping survivors to the ground.

a couple of good demos on our own side using test bunkers, uploaded in HD to youtube, ought to scare any volunteers for future kargils shitless.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

Shiv Saab ,Very few people will know ,understand or appreciate the impact of artillery guns in modern war fields . A Howitzer's look and utilities are like the 18th century canon, for many. Their perception revolves around the "show cased " doctrines surrounding the Gulf wars .

Anyway , Bofors were unloaded and deployed , lock stock barrel at the periphery of Siachen glacier itself and hope Dhanush will populate our mountainous broder in large numbers.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:what we probably need to target such strong hilltop fortifications is a gigantic accurate 10,000lb FAE bomb with some ability to glide accurately after being dropped off the back ramp of a C130/C17 at 25,000ft, using INS+GPS fixes. ofcourse their range in kashmir will be more limited as the base level itself is 10,000ft and tiger hill types are even higher, but still a few km ought to be sufficient for the launch a/c to stay out of manpad range and turn away after launch...esp at night they should be safe enough.

so a downsized MOAB should be well within our capability for such special needs.

a couple of them dropping in together ought to be sight to behold. follow it up with a couple of incendiary models to burn all the escaping survivors to the ground.

a couple of good demos on our own side using test bunkers, uploaded in HD to youtube, ought to scare any volunteers for future kargils shitless.
If you read about overpressure effects and the effect of explosives in mountains - you will find that these bombs are virtually useless unless you score direct hits. 10 square km of mountains would actually offer 5 times more land area and and these 10,000 lb bombs would hardly cover 0.25 sq km. Here is a table that shows the damage cause by nukes ranging from 5 kt (10 million pounds of TNT) to 100 megatons
The 5 kt massive damage radius is 3/4 km just 1.5 sq km. 10,000 lbs is peanuts compared to 5 kt
http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k56 ... -table.jpg
Over a flat plain the MOAB may have some effect on anyone stupid enough to stay within a small area

In this instance I do believe that the SDB that I have been dismissing as useless elsewhere would be much more effective - as long as the targets can be pinpointed
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JTull »

rohitvats wrote:
shiv wrote: I am curious about the range of heavy artillery that is fired from a 10,000 foot high perch. I wonder if the shells will travel further. An M777/Bofors class weapon might reach 40-45 km inside Tibet. That would help do an interdiction job that normally only aircraft can do.<SNIP>
This is the exact issue which IA faced when artillery was inducted for operations in Siachen. The shell goes much farther due to less air density and attendant reduction in drag. The firing tables have to be reworked to take care of these aspects. And this is where modern fire control systems come real handy. They reduce the work load drastically allowing firing solutions to be prepared in minutes.
+1 to Dhanush!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

M777 is all about keeping the weight low about 4000kg, just enough that a heavy chopper like Chinook can carry and not much about field assembly, Dhanush like Bofors would be weighing around 12000kg.

As is 4 can be airlifted in a C-17,
bring the weight down to 7000kgs, even the An-32 can be used

Precision parachuting for cargo was demonstrated for 1 ton, however absolute weight of 16 tons can be air dropped per this new report

DRDO parachute to drop heavy combat vehicles from IL-76

reading the articles on Kargil, the autoloader is surely an important requirement.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Abhay_S »

^^ can you please point me to those articles.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

So IA had their own Stalin Orchestra during Kargil.

Have they internalized this idea in all the divisions so they can be brought to bear on targets?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Singha wrote:what we probably need to target such strong hilltop fortifications is a gigantic accurate 10,000lb FAE bomb with some ability to glide accurately after being dropped off the back ramp of a C130/C17 at 25,000ft, using INS+GPS fixes. ofcourse their range in kashmir will be more limited as the base level itself is 10,000ft and tiger hill types are even higher, but still a few km ought to be sufficient for the launch a/c to stay out of manpad range and turn away after launch...esp at night they should be safe enough.

so a downsized MOAB should be well within our capability for such special needs.

a couple of them dropping in together ought to be sight to behold. follow it up with a couple of incendiary models to burn all the escaping survivors to the ground.

a couple of good demos on our own side using test bunkers, uploaded in HD to youtube, ought to scare any volunteers for future kargils shitless.

GD It will make good picture but will be virtually a brutus fulmen a useless thunderbolt.

Good for CNN footage to impress taxpayers of where their money went.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

rohitvats wrote:
shiv wrote: I am curious about the range of heavy artillery that is fired from a 10,000 foot high perch. I wonder if the shells will travel further. An M777/Bofors class weapon might reach 40-45 km inside Tibet. That would help do an interdiction job that normally only aircraft can do.<SNIP>
This is the exact issue which IA faced when artillery was inducted for operations in Siachen. The shell goes much farther due to less air density and attendant reduction in drag. The firing tables have to be reworked to take care of these aspects. And this is where modern fire control systems come real handy. They reduce the work load drastically allowing firing solutions to be prepared in minutes.

shiv, This is called hypersonic lift. Its proportional to the Mach number and the L/D ratio of the body.


L/Dmax = 4(M+3)/M a value purely driven by Mach Number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-to-drag_ratio

In high mountains the hypersonic lift contributes to overshoot. So the trajectory has to be more high angle to make the shell fall. Or fire with reduced charge to reduce the Mach number.

Germans found this out in high altitude warfare in the Alps.
Shells tend to overshoot.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by k prasad »

I read the whole argument about why we even need "so many" arty guns and instead using aerial modes of delivery... and I find it quite interesting. I know this is a point that has been made before, and by far more expert posters than me, but I'll chip in with my two cents anyway.

One standard principle of battle strategy, one that has stood the test of time, is this - at the critical point in battle, find the point where the enemy is weakest, and attack that point with overwhelming force, in the quickest possible time, before the enemy can react. Speed, accuracy and superior firepower are vital. Once you break through that weak point, the enemy finds it hard to react and regroup effectively, and the battle is pretty much over. That shock value can end the battle. Khalid al Khalid demonstrated this often during his battles, even in the face of larger armies. The Pak Army missed such a chance in 1965 (by just one day) and we used their delay to prepare the ground at Asal Uttar. The same with the initial German assaults in WW2 as well as the Normandy landings.

In ancient battles, this 'shock' value used to be provided by cavalry, or within a particular, battles, by a good partnership between cavalry and archers (Agincourt). Later, once cannons became common, this became cavalry and cannons. However, cannons were still low range, so they werent versatile. By WW1, we had the first tanks and howitzers, but thanks to the trench warfare nature of that conflict, artillery were relegated largely to being weapons of annoyance. The true power of artillery became obvious with WW2, by which time the use of indirect-fire, long-ranged artillery was well developed, and the doctrine of combined arms operations meant that they worked in concert with armor and infantry.

Why am I going on this detour? To make the point that given their long range, and cheap cost, artillery is the BEST way to achieve overwhelming firepower and bring it to bear into a battlefield really quickly. Gone are the days when cannons worked only at visible ranges and weren't too accurate. Artillery is now extremely versatile.

In a theatre, we might either have a number of small unit (platoon or company) engagements over a large spread out area, where they're dealing with entrenched enemies a la Kargil, or under attack, a la A'stan. Or it could be a single armored thrust at a weak point. In either of these cases, if we have artillery guns spread out in an arc, they can almost instantly be redirected without even changing their location, and within a few minutes, they can change from having each group of say 2-3 guns supporting the small units to having every one of the artillery regiment bombarding the choke point that the armored group is trying to assault. And best of all, they can keep doing this all day and all night, for as long as it takes. Theres no down time. The enemy will get no rest or respite. Which, as a number of battles have shown, has serious effects on their morale.

Compare this to say aircrafts -

1) A combat aircraft cannot maintain that barrage. If we had to maintain the same level of constant bombardment, you'd require atleast a squadron or two of combat aircraft continuously deployed back and forth between the base, which might be 100-200 km away from the theatre.

2) Even then, they'd be unable to maintain that level of ops for anything more than a few hours, and even that would be at serious detriment to aircraft life.

3) How long would it take to redeploy the aircraft to support the small unit? Atleast 15 min to even disengage from the large battle and reach the small unit Area of Ops. More if the aircraft has to deploy from base. And even once it reaches, it cannot deliver more than a few bombs over one or two passes - and god help us if it isnt kitted out for that operation. And since the aircraft is visible to the enemy, the actual footprint of firepower is small, especailly when the enemy is a spread out infantry unit. And I dont have to point out how, in the heat of battle, 15 minutes can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

4) Costs: 3000 $ per hour just in flight costs per aircraft + cost of weapons. Cost of a single artillery shell - $1000, at most. Lets just say that artillery takes this one.

Finally, lets come to numbers - 15 billion USD buys us, what - 2000 guns? That same number buys us only 120 MMRCA aircraft. Assuming roughly (and generously) that one sqn of aircraft is as effective as a whole artillery division (say ~70 guns), the equivalent firepower in terms of aircraft would require 28 sqns, ie, 70 bn USD. I say that in comparison, 15 bn is a steal. Btw, it'll be even lower in terms of operational costs, and once we start making our own guns.

Finally, we absolutely need these guns. In Kargil, we had to pull out artillery from the plains just to make up the numbers. Imagine if it was a two-front war! The decline in artillery is one of Saint Antony's greatest crimes, and its a relief that we're making up for some of those numbers now. Especially in the mountains when armour isnt going to be as effective, and in a real fight where we'll be facing SAMs, making aircraft risky to operate, arty support for small units will be vital.

Edit: Oh look... my 600th post. :-)
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Good 600th post....
It started after Bofors scam. The artillery arm was gradually reduced in power.

Kind of CBM due to fear from Brasstacks.
Singha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

>> 3000 $ per hour just in flight costs per aircraft

even the A-10 costs $11500/hr , so fighters will be more .
http://www.businessinsider.in/This-Char ... 695703.cms

Rafale and EF are tasked as $15k/hr, F-15 more. I would take the gripens claims with salt.
vasu raya
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

Abhay_S, here is a Reference,
shiv wrote: ...article...
The performance of the Artillery units which fought heroically at Kargil in 1999 during operation Vijay was splendid. The Indian Artillery fired over 250,000 shells, bombs and rockets during the Kargil conflict. Approximately, 5,000 ordnance were fired daily from more then 300 guns, mortars and multi-barreled rocket launchers (MBRLs). During the peak period of assaults, on an average, each Artillery battery fired over one round per minute for 17 days continuously. Such high rate of fire over long periods had not been witnessed anywhere in the world since World War-II. The Gunners soon developed blisters on their hands from carrying and loading heavy shells and cartridges incessantly. Very few of them got more than a couple of hours' sleep in 24 hour-cycle.
airdrop is as good as 'speedpost', the drop area is not the size of a helipad in the mountains but a larger clearing
Gyan
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

Re K Prasad

+1, to add we are going to fight our major battles on our borders, where we can pre position substantial amount of artillery unlike USA which cannot determine where it's battles will be fought.
shaun
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

With Dhanush and additional capacity from private sectors , bright future for our artillery . Now , concentration should be on smart munitions fired from Howitzers like SMArt 155 , Bofors 155 Bonus and M982 Excalibur type of smart projectiles , will be of immense help in plain areas. Smart projectiles can be dispersed from Pinaka rockets too. Anything going on that front in Desh.
Singha
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

these 'smart' projectiles are very expensive. a basic shell costs $1000 ...the excalibur types are presently costing $70,000 when purchased by their home user the us army in some bulk.

these make sense when pervasive air superiority makes UAV lasing possible or some deep-look survivable ELO C3I sensor gives you instantly over the network the exact GPS co-ordinates of enemy targets before they can relocate. we do not remotely have such a superior network and c3I to fully leverage this or any other american idea that relies on such concepts.

we are better off building up our ammo factories to full "web hyperscale" and stock up massively on basic shells , while driving down costs for the same. our artillery is already networked down to the battery level so converged fires from multiple regiments are feasible.

SFW type payloads delivered from both pinaka(high numbers) and shells(maybe 2-3 in each) should be domestically explored not imported. they might be useful to unload on area targets like vehicular concentrations.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Prem »

This bring to the same old question, are we still importing the ammunition or DO we have manufacturing facility for 155m shell? I believe It was scuttled,sabotaged by UPA couple of times.
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