Artillery: News & Discussion

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Nov 2015 22:13

I don't see what's so great, looks like a standard screwdrivergiri deal. 30% offsets + final assembly in India. Critical components like titanium barrel etc will continue to come from US/UK which will be a permanent dependency. Should have waited for the BF light howitzer or reconsidered Pegasus.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Nov 2015 22:34

What is so amazing about that titanium barrel that Bharat Forge can't be funded to expand its capabilities to do it?
http://www.boeing.co.in/news-and-media- ... forge.page?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Nov 2015 23:43

Will wrote:I think someone did a good job on getting the Pegasus banned. If reports are anything to go by it was the preferred light howitzer and superior to the Amriki one. Also instead of just screwdriver assembly India would have been in a better position to negotiate with Singapore on co-development..

abhik wrote:I don't see what's so great, looks like a standard screwdrivergiri deal. 30% offsets + final assembly in India. Critical components like titanium barrel etc will continue to come from US/UK which will be a permanent dependency. Should have waited for the BF light howitzer or reconsidered Pegasus.

Its a better deal vis a vis what the last govt was negotiating for. The Pegasus may have been better, I doubt it would have been cheaper. The M777 is going out of production and we're gathering up tooling and machinery that would otherwise be written off. The Singaporeans in contrast don't intend to dismantle their facilities (AFAIK) so the fixed cost component would presumably be higher.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 17 Nov 2015 00:13

They do not have any further order so dismantling the final assembly plant and sending the same to us.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 17 Nov 2015 03:52

abhik wrote:I don't see what's so great, looks like a standard screwdrivergiri deal. 30% offsets + final assembly in India. Critical components like titanium barrel etc will continue to come from US/UK which will be a permanent dependency. Should have waited for the BF light howitzer or reconsidered Pegasus.

Cannot wait. Mountain strike needs something in hand ASAP. Cannot wait another five years at least for light ATAGS, which can fill in numbers when ready. Is anyone other than Singapore using the Pegasus? I mean Singapore is known for hi-tech but artillery? M777 is at least in wide use and is a second generation light artillery weapon. The question I have is are we ordering or doing local manufacture of the Excalibur?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Nov 2015 08:11

Manohar Parrikar is unable to persuade the Army to increase the orders of Dhanush from 144 to 414 but import drive is fully active.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 17 Nov 2015 09:49

Gyan wrote:Manohar Parrikar is unable to persuade the Army to increase the orders of Dhanush from 144 to 414 but import drive is fully active.

They fulfill two different requirements don't they? M777s are exclusively for the Mountain Strike Corps. That said, more orders for Dhanush are a must.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Nov 2015 20:21

i believe that the US Govt., actively controls the world titanium market and relatively little gets out without their say so

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 17 Nov 2015 22:43

Karan M wrote:What is so amazing about that titanium barrel that Bharat Forge can't be funded to expand its capabilities to do it?
http://www.boeing.co.in/news-and-media- ... forge.page?

It is so special that OFB will finally succeed in copying it in 12 years saving 10s of crores in foreign exchange.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Nov 2015 22:54

Lalmohan wrote:i believe that the US Govt., actively controls the world titanium market and relatively little gets out without their say so

http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/ ... anium.html
http://forbesindia.com/article/breakpoi ... ge/23702/1

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Nov 2015 22:54

JTull wrote:
Karan M wrote:What is so amazing about that titanium barrel that Bharat Forge can't be funded to expand its capabilities to do it?
http://www.boeing.co.in/news-and-media- ... forge.page?
It is so special that OFB will finally succeed in copying it in 12 years saving 10s of crores in foreign exchange.

This program will likely go to a private firm chosen by BAE as their partner.. but we should still look at indigenizing the barrels as spares..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Nov 2015 15:35

Karan M wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:i believe that the US Govt., actively controls the world titanium market and relatively little gets out without their say so
http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/ ... anium.html
http://forbesindia.com/article/breakpoi ... ge/23702/1

thank you, that is a very interesting article, and good news

i guess similar moves afoot to break the rare earths monopoly too

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 18 Nov 2015 16:49

^ Actually US still controls Ti market. It also actively prevents other countries from developing Ti alloys and metals.
In Tamil Nadu (near Sathankulam) during the previous reign of artist (i.e. Dr. Kalignar) UPA initated a plan to establish Ti sponge manufacturing using Russian technology with investment from Tata. Immediately after the announcement, every two bit Tamil politician(Vijayakant, Vaiko, Ramadoss, Thirumavalavan, etc...(Funnily Ramadoss and thiruma has no political capital in south Tamilnadu, where this Ti sponge factory is supposed to be located. I wonder if they know what is Titaniumin the first place.) ) jumped in to prevent aquisition of lands and development of mines. However there are several mines already there taking the ores and selling TiO2 for pigments. There are several other companie that export rare earths from that area in the name of mineral sand to other countries. But they prevented Tata from acquiring new lands and establishment of industry. Finally Tata dropped the plan and moved on. Nobody gave two hoot about sathankulam after this.

Now we are still importing Ti metal and alloys for industrial purpose. Whatever KKML is producing is being accumulated in warehouse. Only for space and missile purpose that Ti is being used. Beyond that KMML did not sell anywhere (I am not sure if it is the cost or ministry restrictions). KMML mentioned in one news that it is unsustenable to keep the Ti sponge plant running and suggested to use its Ti for Su-mki rather than importing from Russia.

If you wonder how is tamil politicians protest is related to the US, you have to ask the saints of Culinary Institute.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 18 Nov 2015 18:35

durairaaj, i think this NGO funding issue being actively monitored by PMO is linked to these incidents. Same thing happened when the Kudankulam reactors were coming online. Talk of "intolerance" to development!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Dec 2015 18:34

what the...

Ministry keen to purchase 500 more Howitzer guns from BAE Systems
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 987937.ece
M777 155mm 39 caliber towed guns

vs.

Dhanush 155mm Artillery Gun: A “Make in India” Marvel
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... ia-marvel/
155mm/45-calibre Dhanush howitzers

and what happens to Dhanush?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Dec 2015 18:41

It goes for another round of tests!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2015 19:03

In the good old days of the circus,there was a plethora of great circuses in India,a child's delight,now sadly no more. My family knew some of the performers too.Gemini,Great Eastern,National,etc.Perhaps the most famous was the "Kamala 3-Ring Circus",where there were three rings with performers doing their stunts and tricks simultaneously.
So too will Dhanush go round and round the 3-ring trials methinks!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Dec 2015 20:19

russia is certainly a producer of titanium and outside the US cartel. they even produced two akula vessels with titanium hulls and called it "sierra class". due to cost reasons, rest of akulas are steel hull.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2015 18:28

OH BOY!!!

Beyond the DTTI, the Americans have already approved BAE Systems’ proposal to move the assembly line of M-777 Howitzers to India. Negotiations are complete and the Letter of Agreement has been approved — only the final signatures of the two parties remain to be put.

hey, we can co-exist! Dhanush for IA
M-777 for NATO countries and Joint-Indo-NATO battalion.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 16 Dec 2015 22:11

Assembly line ok. But stuff like barrel and all will still have to come from yoosaw no?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2015 00:58

Karan M wrote:What is so amazing about that titanium barrel that Bharat Forge can't be funded to expand its capabilities to do it?
http://www.boeing.co.in/news-and-media- ... forge.page?

A lot.

First of all the TI alloy has to be formulated and made in quantity. Then a forging press of required capacity be setup. And shown capable of producing consistent barrels.
And then solution treatment furnace of required size.

To make the alloy you need double or triple melt Ti base metal and then alloy.

I assume the alloy is 6Al-4V Ti?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 17 Dec 2015 05:05

Karan M wrote:
What is so amazing about that titanium barrel that Bharat Forge can't be funded to expand its capabilities to do it?
http://www.boeing.co.in/news-and-media- ... forge.page?

A lot.

......
A lot bit explained

Please note That Midhani already has titanium forge and billet processing and sheet metal cutting equipment is available.

The maim issue with Titanium is that it is extremely hard to machine at room temperatures even at normally consisidered elivated temperature.

So you. Have to metal cutting and forming at high temperature at which Tinalloys becomes machinable.

Second Ti alloy being hard you have to have tool bits for metal shaping or hammers which don't go blunt for every single operation.

Third at elivated temperature Ti reacts with atmospheric oxygen and form TiO2 so you have to control the ambient conditions very carefully.

Midhani also has annealing furnaces for TI alloys. all made with collaboration or imported from France.

Th equipment is amazing state of the art I am talking from 1987 visits.

Yours truely supplied CNC gullitoine shear of LVD Belgium made through Godrej. It was first LVD machine assembled by Godrej next one I sold to HAL Hyderabad division for the Mig IFF radar
The third one I sold to ECIL for the Antenna division.

The problem for Bharat forge will be two fold , if they want to extrude the Ti alloy for barell the billet has to be at high temperature near melting point for the metal to extrude, near yield point which means the the gripping claws and the hydraulic equipment must stand very high temp.

If you want to bore a forged solid Ti cylinder your boring drilling tool has to be much harder than the Ti cylinder and no become soft at high temperature.

So yes it is complicated with Jig boring vertical boring horizontal boring.

Just an example for the machine I sold to Midhani, in Godrej we had to design a special hold down shoes to hold the hot Ti alloy while shearing ( so that th sheet won't slide while cutting, like improper scissor used to cut card board) the hold down shoes would melt at that high temp, soma cooling and special hardened steel alloy casting shoes were used.

Sorry for such big lecture, also The "I" part be excused it's not for want of ego or certification as I am a certified fool for quite some time at least since Spinster got married

......
Added latter

Gun drilling is a process also,employed, where in the barell is drilled with one end enclosed that s not through and through

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2015 05:50

spinster thanks for the informative post

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 17 Dec 2015 06:06

Doc Saar ji thanks

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Dec 2015 07:05

rifle barrels are drilled from a solid cylindrical rod of steel using a carbide tipped drill per youtube.
from around 14 min it also looks like the big bad 15"-16" naval guns were drilled from forged cylinders...

there is also autofretagge process extra for durability.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 17 Dec 2015 07:26

Depends on the barell material.

Carbide tipped and ceramic tools diamond cutting tipped bits are all available. The important factor is the
Alloy being machined and the length of the barell that is depth.

I am guessing here some of the barell on tanks like Vijayantha have a small lap joint on the barell which Imthink is to facilitate the capacity to drill extrude the lengths.

The lap joint will lap the two barells with a shrink fit joint, in any case the heat component of the shell induced will be less than the melting point of the barell material.

A little deviation one convoluted post
May be excused.

A quick reference here

http://tinyurl.com/titanium-cutting-tool-bit

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Dec 2015 07:38

the tank barrels on firing seem to unleash a tremendous blast of flame...perhaps the more heavy duty artillery and naval guns have a more complex system to remove the gases and unburnt residue. the t-series tanks use a blast of air after the shell is fired iirc.

the naval 5" guns despite their heavy fire rates seem to have a tiny sedate flame

the old school battleships again have massive flame
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... -61_pr.jpg

note the sleek racing yacht hull shape of all these BBs. I have been on the USS massachusetts and that long tapering upward curving bow is endless...you look down and you see the two turrets as big as medium sized houses .... with side rows of smaller AA guns....powerful stuff.

at full depression the fwd A-turret cannot fire straight ahead it seemed for fear of hitting the raised bow. turn the wheel to the side a little and this thing can wreck anything in range.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2015 08:32

Singha wrote:rifle barrels are drilled from a solid cylindrical rod of steel using a carbide tipped drill per youtube.
from around 14 min it also looks like the big bad 15"-16" naval guns were drilled from forged cylinders...

there is also autofretagge process extra for durability.

Two points emerge - watching just 90 seconds starting exactly at 7 minutes

1. Hundreds of machines are designed in house for custom parts which no one else makes. On the other hand the factory also creates complete sets tools and jigs to supply to private companies to manufacture equipment.

So there is an ecosystem of public and private cooperating - with private probably taking over mass production and the government factory probably retaining custom parts required in smaller volumes.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 17 Dec 2015 09:30

Doc Saar ji absolutely right

The govt sector and universities in US create in crucible the concept with the scientific rigor and experiment, the industry then takes it to product and mass manufacture...

But the best example of scientific crucible experiment to product development isi MIT (unified university/ product) like institutions labs which are true Technology institutes unlike IITs with exception always, don't do technology of an note worthy

Before some one condemns me for fool to be, read Narayan murthy lamenting IITs not producing products of note worthy,,,,

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Dec 2015 07:38

Jugal R Purohit ‏@jrpur 15h15 hours ago
JUST IN: Six more regiments of Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher system cleared for purchase @ Rs 14600cr. L&T, TPCL & BEML to produce.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 18 Dec 2015 07:44

Thakur_B wrote:
Jugal R Purohit ‏@jrpur 15h15 hours ago
JUST IN: Six more regiments of Pinaka Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher system cleared for purchase @ Rs 14600cr. L&T, TPCL & BEML to produce.

The Delivery schedule is to be known. Further Nearly 3 Lack Crs of Equipment have been approved under necessity category however few have materialzed.
MOD needs to swiftly move the files, get it ratified by Finance & push through to CCS to get the system at the earliest as development & delivery will also have issues from various Vendors & Sub Vendors.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 Dec 2015 15:29

BAE M777 Vs DRDO ATAGS

Mass Import likely Vs Desi Murgi like Dhanush which has only managed 144 piece order till date

39 Caliber vs 52 caliber

Non-automated vs Automated

Traditional recoil system vs Non Obtanium Recoil System

Why was DRDO not asked to make something simpler like M777 before jumping to ATAGS? As usual give impossible requirements to DRDO while happily importing basic technology requirements like (SMGs, Microlights, BTAs etc)

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Dec 2015 15:43

Gyan wrote:Why was DRDO not asked to make something simpler like M777 before jumping to ATAGS? As usual give impossible requirements to DRDO while happily importing basic technology requirements like (SMGs, Microlights, BTAs etc)

The M777 may be mechanically simpler, its not necessarily technologically (to be specific, metallurgically) simpler.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jan 2016 07:33

South African G3 development saga:

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol091ig.html

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 03 Jan 2016 16:39

Viv S wrote:
Gyan wrote:Why was DRDO not asked to make something simpler like M777 before jumping to ATAGS? As usual give impossible requirements to DRDO while happily importing basic technology requirements like (SMGs, Microlights, BTAs etc)
The M777 may be mechanically simpler, its not necessarily technologically (to be specific, metallurgically) simpler.

ATAGS also is titanium barrel.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 04 Jan 2016 08:32

BAE is one of the most corrupting arms dealers worldwide - they even managed to corrupt billionaire saudi prince. What chance does DRDO goodies versus a honed corrupting strategy learned over centuries.

All this Titanium manufacturing talk is super refined BS. Nothing in manufacturing is out of reach in today's time. We can get equipment and know how for fraction of the stated expenditure.

Only way to fix this is make India a less 'attractive' customer - spend our limited money on DESI goodies FIRST and keep a small fraction for imports. Order 1000 DESI 155 mm guns and then go to the negotiating table for buying this showcase imports.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 05 Jan 2016 06:16

Not sure if posted before

Pinaka II trial successful: DRDO

Jodhpur: Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory has ended the year with a bang in Jaisalmer, adding to the success story of the premier defence research establishment. The three-day-long User Assisted Trials (in this case Indian Army) of the much-awaited Pinaka II, a complete multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system with a range of 60 km, have been successfully completed as per the DRDO officials.Range of Pinaka II is 20 km more than the Pinaka I version, which has a 40 km range and has already been inducted into the forces.
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DRDO officials revealed that after the successful development trials of 60 km range Pinaka II rocket systems, the same were being manufactured in huge quantities in production lines. Sources revealed that the same have been handed over to the Army as per its projected demand meeting the timeframe of December 2015. "And now, the user assisted trials have been completed successfully in Pokhran in the past three days or so," said an official pleading anonymity about these covert trials marking a glorious year end for DRDO as well as the Army . Pinaka has been indigenously developed by ARDE, Pune, a DRDO laboratory .
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Interestingly , the `submunition warheads', amongst the eight different kinds of warheads for Pinaka, successfully tested during advanced development trials for Pinaka I in Pokhran field firing range in Rajasthan during June 2015, paved way for it to be used in Pinaka II as well.These act as a force-multiplier while supplementing the artillery guns as well.Pinaka, the indigenous unguided rocket system which has been undergoing extensive testing since the past 20 years is capable of neutralising large areas with rapid salvos. Having proven its mettle during Kargil war while neutralising the mountain peaks off the enemy , Pinaka akes pride in its low cost vis-a-vis other such rocket systems in the world bestowed with shoot and scoot capabilities.

Meanwhile, `proof trials' for the production lots of Pinaka I wherein random Pinakas are picked up to test the performance standards of a specific lot were also conducted here as per the officials. `Inhouse' or the `technical trials', actually a part of the developments trials for Pinaka II have been completed in two phases ncluding the first phase in Balasore for checking the range and the second one at Pokhran for checking the accuracy and consistency in performance levels.

DRDO officials disclosed that not only the number of Pinaka rockets to be manufactured is being increased in production lines to cater for the Army's projected needs aimed at giving boost to concerned regiments but even the strike capability in terms of an even longer range for Pinaka II is in pipeline. ARDE and other DRDO officials were present along with the Indian Army officials during these trials at Pokhran.

Pinaka can carry a payload of more than 100 kg

Pinaka battery consists of six launchers, each equipped with 12 rockets. Capable of carrying a payload of more than 100 kg, Pinaka went into development in 1986 and production in 1998. Having proven its mettle during Kargil, indigenous Pinaka MBRL mounted on a Tatra truck can act as a force-multiplier as an Area Weapon System while firing a salvo of 12 High Explosive (HE) rockets in 44 seconds and neutralizing a marked area of 3.9 sq km. This thermo-baric ammunition has become even more lethal while being able to operate from a mobile launcher at extreme temperature ranges of -10 degrees Celsius to 55 degrees Celsius or so, with a quicker reaction time and capability to carry various kinds of warheads. The MBRL system can work in various modes including autonomous mode while being controlled by a fire control computer, standalone mode, manual mode or remote mode etc.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Jan 2016 06:01

Army to get K9 Vajra-T howitzers

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2016 00:46

abhishek_sharma wrote:Army to get K9 Vajra-T howitzers

These are for the armored vehicle mounted guns.

Rohitvats what do 100 guns equip? Option for another 50 is there.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Jan 2016 06:30

ramana wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:Army to get K9 Vajra-T howitzers

These are for the armored vehicle mounted guns.

Rohitvats what do 100 guns equip? Option for another 50 is there.

Armored Divisions.

But only partially. 150 guns translates into ~8 regiments @18 guns/regiment. An artillery bde will have at least 4 regiments which translates into 12 regiments in total between three armored divisions. So, balance four could be the mounted/wheeled SP arty guns.