LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Jul 2015 22:14

pankajs wrote:✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 1h1 hour ago

Move to close Tejas project in the recent past? Stand-by for an interesting story. #Tejas #ADA #IAF #HAL

THe LCA Tejas was always an iffy thing, that's why there have only been paltry orders for it. Its "wait and watch" policy for indigenous weapons while giving huge guranteed orders for imports (which are often vapour ware). Its the same Arjun delaying tactic at play. People here who think that the IAF will readily order more LCA's in 5 to 8 years down the line, when the Mk1/Mk2 have jumped through all the hoops, are only fooling themselves.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jul 2015 22:15

the initial plan to insert a plug of 1m behind the cockpit to resolve the drag issue in mk2 (and have bigger fuel etc) seems to have been abandoned....a enlargement of the wing to match was also talked of. instead a 0.5m length increase in the nose to accomodate a meatier aesa backend but same fuselage with internal changes to insert the 414 and wing is going to be it.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 01 Jul 2015 23:15

Singha wrote:the initial plan to insert a plug of 1m behind the cockpit to resolve the drag issue in mk2 (and have bigger fuel etc) seems to have been abandoned....a enlargement of the wing to match was also talked of. instead a 0.5m length increase in the nose to accomodate a meatier aesa backend but same fuselage with internal changes to insert the 414 and wing is going to be it.

Looks like they don't want any delays. All these things can come later, one hopes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2015 23:31

PSS is from RECW and IISc. By the time he joined ADA he had 10 years of DRDO experience.

So most aero decisions have to start with a trade study to see what's the best option keeping technical, cost and schedule.

So 1 m mid body plug and enlarged wing area would be major impact on the LCA while the longer nose plug for better radar with internal modifications would be best option.

The other changes would need aero testing to begin a new.
Its a different plane aerodynamically speaking.

All those suggested things were options. Can't hold them to that.
Can we live with further delays and cost over runs for LCA?

Best is enemy of good.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 01 Jul 2015 23:32

Ramana wrote:ramana wrote:
BTW in an engineering organization one learns from failures. That means those who were there are the knowledge keepers. Firing them will delay the system as new SMEs are required.

My advise (XX years of engineering of all sorts) always has been not to find the humans as the root cause but to find the systemic issues and fix them.

you said it!! dysfunctional system = issues remain! our challenge has not been quality of manpower but sheer lack of coordination and back and forth program issues starting all the way from MOD. now we need parrikar and namo to support, devolve decision making authority, yet hold all stakeholders firmly to task, and also ensure long term plan for indigenization does not get sidetracked.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2015 02:53

Something to think about....
Looks like DRDO is getting whats going on...

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-want-t ... 93678.html

"I am definitely in the process of hearing from small labs that a DRDO chief never visited in the last many, many years. I am devoting my Sundays now to spend time for such labs, which contributed to DRDO silently but never got any attention," says Dr Christopher.

"Performance is the key for DRDO now, whether it is a small lab with 50 people or a massive complex with 5000 people," he says.

"Delivery is the key. I don't want to stand on the top of the roof and make tall claims. I am prioritizing my goals," the DRDO chief said.

"We have too many varieties (missiles) and even the RM (Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar) has opined his views. We want several types of weapons. We are looking for standardizing our weapon programmes by clubbing them together. The idea is to make our weapons more efficient and make them in more numbers," says Dr Christopher, a native of Kumbakonam in Tamil Nadu.

"We have too many varieties (missiles) and even the RM (Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar) has opined his views. We want several types of weapons. We are looking for standardizing our weapon programmes by clubbing them together. The idea is to make our weapons more efficient and make them in more numbers," says Dr Christopher, a native of Kumbakonam in Tamil Nadu.

He said he has set his vision to make standard production lines for faster delivery of DRDO-developed weapon systems.

"Tejas Mk-1 is almost there and by March 2016 the FOC will be in. We have already begun the work on the next version. Tejas Mk-2 is the future," says the 60-year-old top radar scientist, who was appointed as the DRDO Chief recently.

So DRDO chief has his agenda set-out for him by his bosses.

Tejas Mk-1 FOC by March 2016.
Tejas Mk 2 is the future.
Reduce the number of systems and standardize.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Jul 2015 03:53

better is the enemy of both best and good.

Tejas MK-2 is the future

now we need to dig for numbers

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2015 20:49

tsarkar and deejay,

Does the target picture posted earlier show adequate grouping expected from a fighter plane?

We don't know the range but high velocity should ensure range does not matter over distances of interest.

Reason I ask is in earl fighter plane programs like e.g. Mig15, dispersion was found to much.

In LCA location of gun mount in the fuselage should be stuff enough.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Jul 2015 21:40

^^^ Sir, don't know for sure, I have done some firing from helicopters only (Mi 17 Gsh 23 mm trials from hover). The grouping is too 'tight' to be from a large distance. The gun recoil alone should spread it more. Looks more like 100 to 200 mtrs range not more. Plus it is all indoors (as I saw in the video) so how much distance can there be indoors?

The right side gun has a recoil to right and up, maybe its mountings have a slight 'give'. Guesswork here.

The paper sizes are standard A4 and I counted 59 bullet holes and some bullet holes overlap others. The left side looks far tighter than the right. I may have confused a double hole for one as it is a 01 sec burst so we should have 60 holes there.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2015 22:09

Awesome. I too counted around 60 holes. I guess its < 500m which is combat range of the gun per wiki. So grouping is good enough.

I too had a thought about the different scatter pattern between right and left hand. Also note the holes above in the wood.
So what size circle dia you estimate? 0.2m -0.5m? Will give dispersion figure of merit.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 06:57

ramana wrote:Awesome. I too counted around 60 holes. I guess its < 500m which is combat range of the gun per wiki. So grouping is good enough.

I too had a thought about the different scatter pattern between right and left hand. Also note the holes above in the wood.
So what size circle dia you estimate? 0.2m -0.5m? Will give dispersion figure of merit.

An A4 size sheet is 21.5cm width and 30.5cm length (give or take 01 odd mm). The image has a black mark on the top sheet of the two central white sheets splitting the sheets or two sides in equal halves.

Taking this as the datum for center line and measuring the left and right side spread from this partitioning:

Left Side Spread: Horizontal: Less than width of A4 sheet or less than 21.5 cms (or ~21cms); Vertical: Less than paper length but more than horizontal spread at around 25-27 cms.
The Grouping here will be the higher value of 25-27 cm

Right Side: There are three cluster of holes - On the paper, On the woodwork on top and two holes on the right side woodwork. This multiple clusters appear to be a inconsistent with left side and hence I expect that slight fine tuning on the Gun/ Mounting will eliminate the woodwork part. To estimate grouping therefore I used only the paper holes on the right of the black mark.
Horizontal: Less than width of A4 sheet or less than 21.5 cms; Vertical: Less than paper width of A4 sheet or less than 21.5 cms. Hence the grouping here is around ~21 cms ignoring the outliers on the wood work.

Nice, tight, grouping that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2015 07:27

i get about 28 holes for right.

So multiply 30 holes with kinetic energy of a 23 mm shell neglecting explosive. ~ 36K ft-lbs.

that should shear of a major structure segment.

From only one barrel.

--

deejay once RMA is in place I want you to help write an effectiveness report of Indian military forces that will make adversaries give up even before a shot is fired.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jul 2015 08:58

Hello Ramana, I was reserving my views until the distance was published.

The GSh-23 is a proven gun manufactured by OFB since 70s, and is among the two pieces of equipment common to Tejas & JF-17, the other being Martin Baker ejection seats.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2015 09:09

ramana wrote:Also note the holes above in the wood.

Ramana - paper holes are exit holes. Wood holes are entry holes used in some earlier test.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2015 11:18

200m is a huge distance. the Tejas hangars at HAL are only around 100m long at best. I think only assemblers of large planes like airbus and boeing have gigantic hangars.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 11:45

^^^I agree. It will be lesser than 100 mtrs most probably. Even at ~50m it is is very tight grouping for an automatic heavy caliber weapon IMO. The bullets kind of spray in automatic firing. When I wrote 100m to 200 m distance, I was looking at max possible distance indoors. There are a few big - long hangars in India, though I am not sure of their length.

a 01 degree divergence at muzzle will really spread by around 100 mtrs and the recoil makes the muzzle really shake. Infact, the whole aircraft will shake. This close grouping for auto firing is difficult but I will qualify with no first hand experience in fighter / fixed wing firing.
______________

Shiv Sir, you are right the woodwork is old firing holes, I missed the obvious. Fortunately, I had not taken that in to grouping.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jul 2015 11:56

deejay wrote:^^^I agree. It will be lesser than 100 mtrs most probably. Even at ~50m it is is very tight grouping for an automatic heavy caliber weapon IMO. The bullets kind of spray in automatic firing. When I wrote 100m to 200 m distance, I was looking at max possible distance indoors. There are a few big - long hangars in India, though I am not sure of their length.

a 01 degree divergence at muzzle will really spread by around 100 mtrs and the recoil makes the muzzle really shake. Infact, the whole aircraft will shake. This close grouping for auto firing is difficult but I will qualify with no first hand experience in fighter / fixed wing firing.
______________

Shiv Sir, you are right the woodwork is old firing holes, I missed the obvious. Fortunately, I had not taken that in to grouping.

Why the assumption that the firing was done indoors??.

All the butt firing trials that I have done were done outdoors onlee.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Jul 2015 12:11

Posted here?

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 2h2 hours ago
#BreakingNews Cmde C D Balaji (Retd) appointed as ADA Chief. He will head Tejas, NLCA projects now. @Oneindia

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jul 2015 12:13

How did we conclude that the holes in the wood are from a previous firing??? Same for the paper being exit holes, that too with a bulls eye printed on them???

There is no dearth of funding, and surely for the sake of proper scientific testing, a pockmarked panel can be avoided.

The Mirach was imported to test Akash in addition to Lakshya.

Lastly, there are ample targets available with service than to use plywood panels and printed A4 sheets.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 03 Jul 2015 12:16

Wasnt he the program director for NLCA?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jul 2015 12:16

sum wrote:Posted here?
✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 2h2 hours ago
#BreakingNews Cmde C D Balaji (Retd) appointed as ADA Chief. He will head Tejas, NLCA projects now. @Oneindia

Good News!

Someone should show this to the air force. The same airforce that tried to kill Maritime Reconnaissance by denying planes, or tried to kill aircraft carrier project by saying Su-30 has ample range for fleet air defence, or more recently denying attack helicopters to Army aviation.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2015 12:26

Tx Ramana for the detailed reply.Q,what radome material is used on Russian aircraft? The Bars on the MKIs are supposed to have a range of a few hundred km both search and track. Are they also of Kevlar?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2015 12:38

the interference of radome and radar appears to be a field of serious study. this page with lot of info on russian avionics has a interesting nugget...a conical radome produced interference in su15 and was replaced with a ogival one. so not just materials but shape also plays some part.

http://aerospace.boopidoo.com/philez/Su ... ionics.htm

RP-26M Taifun-M definitive version. Initial conical radome produced undesirable interference, reducing range, leading to a new ogival radome. Used in conjunction with the R-98 AAM.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 12:50

tsarkar wrote:How did we conclude that the holes in the wood are from a previous firing??? Same for the paper being exit holes, that too with a bulls eye printed on them???

There is no dearth of funding, and surely for the sake of proper scientific testing, a pockmarked panel can be avoided.

The Mirach was imported to test Akash in addition to Lakshya.

Lastly, there are ample targets available with service than to use plywood panels and printed A4 sheets.

If you look at the center sheet top right tape, it is over a hole on the wood work. Hence, I agreed with the conclusion that those holes are older.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Jul 2015 12:51

tsarkar wrote: Good News!

Someone should show this to the air force. The same airforce that tried to kill Maritime Reconnaissance by denying planes, or tried to kill aircraft carrier project by saying Su-30 has ample range for fleet air defence, or more recently denying attack helicopters to Army aviation.

Yup - the irony of ADA (which is developing Tejas and AMCA) being led by an ex-Navy guy should sink in due course of time.

But let's hope they don't learn the wrong lessons and try to again push AM Matheswaran as head of HAL !

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Jul 2015 12:55

Tx.What about the angular radomes seen on the stealth birds? As you said a v.serious study subject.Materials of conformal radars,that too with stealth coatings?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 12:56

chetak wrote:
deejay wrote:...

Why the assumption that the firing was done indoors??.

All the butt firing trials that I have done were done outdoors onlee.

I was assuming that these holes are from the ground firing video of Tejas where Tejas was indoors. I checked the video again. The aircraft is at the edge of hangar and firing outside where we can clearly see the trees and bushes. So yes, even the limitation of indoor will not apply.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 13:06

Hope this was not posted before:

[youtube]XILCRcWsiJk#t=29[/youtube]

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jul 2015 13:11

@srin

With due respect, having military folks with good understanding of technology running programs can take this to better & faster conclusion. They can strike the right balance between requirements & ability to deliver.

Examples being Hyman Rickover & Major General Israel Tal who led Merkava development.

All IN programs are its own - all ships are designed by it and constructed to its specifications. DRDO provides only subsystems like Missiles, CMS, Radars, Sonars, ECM/ESM.

Even for Arihant, it is built by IN. DRDO is giving the CMS, Sonar, ESM & missiles while DAE is giving the reactor.

The Fiza'ya runs PAC Kamra and is the sponsor agency for JF-17 that is a sideshow for the Chinese.

@DJ Just noticed the duct tape. If the paper is A4, then the holes appear too small for me for 23 mm shells.

The whole testing apparatus looks very shoddy to me, unless they just wanted to fire the gun, in which case they could've just fired at the bushes around the airfield periphery.

I do know that the Tejas program is well funded, and that ADA/HAL has sufficient metal sheets or plywood, as well as fitters & carpenters, with a well marked Vinyl sheet costing a few hundred rupees. The paper taped on plywood is not a scientific way of testing.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 14:44

tsarkar wrote:...
@DJ Just noticed the duct tape. If the paper is A4, then the holes appear too small for me for 23 mm shells.

The whole testing apparatus looks very shoddy to me, unless they just wanted to fire the gun, in which case they could've just fired at the bushes around the airfield periphery.

I do know that the Tejas program is well funded, and that ADA/HAL has sufficient metal sheets or plywood, as well as fitters & carpenters, with a well marked Vinyl sheet costing a few hundred rupees. The paper taped on plywood is not a scientific way of testing.

Sir, the A4 size is a deduction from the size of duct tape (width). Holes do appear small but I assumed these are from Tejas gun firing.

If these are exit holes, the back side of the target could be similar but why have such well placed and pasted paper target behind? And as I keep saying it is a very tight grouping.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jul 2015 14:54

sum wrote:Posted here?
✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 2h2 hours ago
#BreakingNews Cmde C D Balaji (Retd) appointed as ADA Chief. He will head Tejas, NLCA projects now. @Oneindia

YES!!!!

I had hoped for this!!

Now for him to get ADA into shape, have NaMo/MOD lean on HAL to deliver and get the LCA into service stat!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jul 2015 14:57

srin wrote:
tsarkar wrote: Good News!

Someone should show this to the air force. The same airforce that tried to kill Maritime Reconnaissance by denying planes, or tried to kill aircraft carrier project by saying Su-30 has ample range for fleet air defence, or more recently denying attack helicopters to Army aviation.
Yup - the irony of ADA (which is developing Tejas and AMCA) being led by an ex-Navy guy should sink in due course of time.

But let's hope they don't learn the wrong lessons and try to again push AM Matheswaran as head of HAL !

DRDO routinely asks military officers deputed to it, to stay on as program managers. They clearly recognize their value. Long history - LCA, AEW&C, Arjun.. all had ex military program managers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2015 15:35

tsarkar wrote:How did we conclude that the holes in the wood are from a previous firing??? Same for the paper being exit holes, that too with a bulls eye printed on them

Wood chips outwards and paper everts in exit holes. Both features are visible on the paper targets. The wood holes are neat entry holes. the paper target has been turned back to front because it is too small and extra paper pasted to the side. Clearly this is a thing done by an young enthusiast and not meant to be a stuffy officious demonstration of grouping as a press release. An old deal wood box has been used

I would be very surprised if anyone tried to test grouping from a stationary aircraft. The vibration would shake the entire aircraft and trying to stop that would be impossible. The transmission of weapon energy as vibration cannot be totally prevented. Grouping from the cannon should be tested from a proper mount, not an aircraft on stilts. Grouping from live firing will come from shooting targets from the air.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2015 19:16

Cdr. Balaji as ADA director is good news for FOC and Mk2 development Means GOI focused on delivery.

Being a ex-military man trust factor should go up unless service rivalry shows up.

Agree with srin on irony of a Navyman in charge of an Airforce plane project.

Shows IAF personnel didn't see it as viable and never joined program.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 03 Jul 2015 20:43

Yes, Shiv, I noticed later, but then who tapes a target behind?

There is no doubt on the gun or the plane, so lets wait for better photos/videos to emerge.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Jul 2015 21:01

>>>The whole testing apparatus looks very shoddy to me, unless they just wanted to fire the gun, in which case they could've just fired at the bushes around the airfield periphery.

HAL seems to do many things in a very jugaad manner at minimal cost etc. While all this might be "frugal engineering", it results in a bad image for them and their efforts. Folks visit the spic and span component manufacturing faciltiies set up by the private sector (in many cases making basic stuff) and come away impressed. They visit HALs age old facilities with dust in corners and refurbished/reused kits from decades back and think its a low grade shop.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jul 2015 21:16

ramana wrote:From the online chat
By counting the holes and knowing the GSh 23 rate of fire (300rounds/sec) we can back calculate the time of firing.

Mounting stiff enough?

Guys,

No offence, but a small point occurred to me.

If the paper size is A4 as some have said, there is no way that these holes could be made from a GSh 23 unit firing.

This is the sort of grouping that one hopes for after a good gun harmonization (guns + gun sight) procedure. Guns are never harmonized at the outer limit of their ranges because of the spread.

take a look at the size of the shell. The exit holes would have been much larger and in my experience of firing trials, there would have been nothing left of the board either.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 03 Jul 2015 21:51

IMO we are wrongly focusing on the bullet marks?

The testing would be of the vibrations and its effect on the body of the plane.
Do we have information on this?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 03 Jul 2015 22:14

^^^ Sir, the paper size is A4, but the only doubt is whether this is from the same firing. The grouping is too tight / close. Normally does not happen in automatic firing. The spread of the bullet spray also increases with distance from target.

As far as bullet hole sizes from 23 mm, I have never seen a shot on a paper target so can't be sure but once the bullet is fired, the broad rear casing is ejected. Size of hole on this target- can't be sure of that but when hit by 23 mm brick walls crumble from a fair distance.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Jul 2015 22:18

deejay wrote:^^^ Sir, the paper size is A4, but the only doubt is whether this is from the same firing. The grouping is too tight / close. Normally does not happen.

looks more like a grouping from a well harmonized 7.62 mm pod