India-US relations: News and Discussions IV

[Pratyush]

Jaishankar ji gives a powerful reply to criticism of India's stance on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnuIk-kkcWM

I don't know, but I find Jaishankar to be very defensive. IMO, a lot of his responces are defensive. Like the response posted above.

One of his earlier response was the best one. In an interaction where he was asked for India to pick a side. His response was that India has picked a side. We are on India's side. Or words to that effect.

That to me was the best response to such questions. It's measured, dignified, and an unmistakable signal that we have the ability to judge what's best for us. Plus, we are ready to face the consequences of our choices.

So take your outrage about Indian choices an shove them where the sun doesn't shine.

[Cyrano]

I don't see Dr SJ being defensive at all. He is a foreign minister, not a social media warrior, and knows that he will often have to deal with and find convergences with people he totally disagrees with, to further the interests of Bharat.

I see how EU leaders behave every day, making inane and insane statements all the time. They think they are smart and aggressive, but they are not, and fail miserably at understanding what their national interest is, let alone defend it.

Coming back to this exchange, what was Japan's position wrt Pakistan and China's aggressions against Bharat since 1947? Did they consistently defend Bharat's territorial integrity, at significant costs to themselves, like they are pushing us to defend Ukraine's now? That's the point Dr SJ has made. That was a slap so subtly given, that the face turns like cherry blossoms in spring over many days, hopefully makes them rethink, and will be remembered next time a Japanese diplomat meets Dr SJ and gets the itch to raise this issue again.

A lot of diplomacy is shaping the other party's thinking and smart negotiation, mostly off public eyes. Crowd pleasing retorts are a byproduct we all love, and also shapes our own thinking, however not the core job of an _external_ affairs minister.

[sanman]

Jaishankar ji gives a powerful reply to criticism of India's stance on Ukraine war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnuIk-kkcWM

I don't know, but I find Jaishankar to be very defensive. IMO, a lot of his responces are defensive. Like the response posted above.

I don't find him to be on the defensive - I find him going on the offensive, in calling out others for their hypocrisies when they criticize India.

[chetak]

I don't see Dr SJ being defensive at all. He is a foreign minister, not a social media warrior, and knows that he will often have to deal with and find convergences with people he totally disagrees with, to further the interests of Bharat.

I see how EU leaders behave every day, making inane and insane statements all the time. They think they are smart and aggressive, but they are not, and fail miserably at understanding what their national interest is, let alone defend it.

Coming back to this exchange, what was Japan's position wrt Pakistan and China's aggressions against Bharat since 1947? Did they consistently defend Bharat's territorial integrity, at significant costs to themselves, like they are pushing us to defend Ukraine's now? That's the point Dr SJ has made. That was a slap so subtly given, that the face turns like cherry blossoms in spring over many days, hopefully makes them rethink, and will be remembered next time a Japanese diplomat meets Dr SJ and gets the itch to raise this issue again.

A lot of diplomacy is shaping the other party's thinking and smart negotiation, mostly off public eyes. Crowd pleasing retorts are a byproduct we all love, and also shapes our own thinking, however not the core job of an _external_ affairs minister.

Cyrano ji,


One thinks that all the required and relevant points regarding support to russia, purchase of russian oil, and what have you, have been discussed ad nauseum publicly, and points have been repeatedly made, reiterating India's position and it's high time that India dialled it down several notches and stuck to a canned answer that is is easily trotted out, as and when the situation demands.

One has this feeling that in many international fora, India is being deliberately trolled, just to generate sensational headlines in the local media, and that may not be playing out to India's continued advantage......If one were paranoid, it may even become easy to see the gradual build up of an anti India narrative that is gaining increasing headway

Full marks to JS, but over utilization of such a potent asset may be detrimental to India's short to medium term interests

[sanman]

Does exit of Victoria Nuland change America's wars? | विश्व युद्ध शुरू?|

Opinions from 'Five' Indian Americans

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TtZSjzZSpQ

[Cyrano]

Chetak ji,
Let them troll na, those holier than thou wokes will only get discredited on the global stage. There is decades of piled up anti Bharat narrative that will need many JSs to de-pestify completely.

But all that is not JSs core focus. So its fine for me.

[NRao]

I was betting on beti Victoria to join Soros.

But she has surprised me by joining the Columbia University, where she joins Jeffrey Sachs.

I do not know of a mightier fall.

Ambassador Victoria Nuland Will Join SIPA Facultyq0

[Pratyush]

It appears that madam Clinton is also on the faculty of the Columbia University.

[Cyrano]

Both will bow and take inspiration from Ambedkar's statue in it's courtyard

[krithivas]

It has been the US that continues to discriminate and strip the American citizens of German origin under the pretext of suspected Nazi collaboration. It is interesting that the US deemed it fit to argue the case of Muslims of Islamic nations for CAA based Indian citizenship grant. After-all Muslims of the three Islamic nations are the perpetrators of Hindu genocide. If Americans can be stripped of citizenship, India has the right to not grant citizenship to Muslims from the nations that have reduced Hindu population to a minuscule minority.

[Lisa]

They need reminding,

In 1944, Jinnah said:

We maintain and hold that Muslims and Hindus are two major nations by any definition or test of a nation. We are a nation of hundred million and what is more, we are a nation with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportions, legal laws and moral codes, customs and calendar, history and tradition, and aptitude and ambitions. In short, we have our own outlook on life and of life.

In an interview with British journalist Beverley Nichols, he said in 1943:

Islam is not only a religious doctrine but also a realistic code of conduct in terms of every day and everything important in life: our history, our laws and our jurisprudence. In all these things, our outlook is not only fundamentally different but also opposed to Hindus. There is nothing in life that links us together. Our names, clothes, food, festivals, and rituals, all are different. Our economic life, our educational ideas, treatment of women, attitude towards animals, and humanitarian considerations, all are very different.

All this is still true. How can they find common ground with us now? More to the point, they have 'their' land. They can partition it there if they are unhappy, just like in 47.

[chetak]

Bharat Sarkar replies to the US' “Concern over CAA":- THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND INDIA's PLURALISTIC TRADITIONS, BETTER NOT ATTEMPT LECTURING. THIS IS OUR INTERNAL MATTER".


when was the last time that the amrikans were spoken to like this. It's like a kick to the solar plexus


https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 67291.html

The Citizenship Amendment Act 2019 is an internal matter of India and it is in line with the country’s inclusive traditions and a long-standing commitment to human rights, the Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson Randhir Jaiswal said on March 15. He was responding to United States expressing concerns over the implementation of the Act.

While defending CAA, Jaiswal said, “The act grants a safe haven to persecuted minorities belonging to Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Parsi and Christian communities from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh who have entered India on or before 31st December 2014. The CAA is about giving citizenship, not about taking away citizenship, so this must be underlined.” Lectures by those who have a limited understanding of India's pluralistic traditions and the region's post-partition history are best not attempted, Randhir Jaiswal said.

"The CAA addresses the issue of statelessness, provides human dignity and supports human rights," Jaiswal said, asserting that the law is an internal matter of India. The CAA, 2019 is in keeping with India's inclusive traditions and long-standing commitment to human rights, he added.

Further, in a slightly stern response, Jaiswal said the US State Department's statement on the implementation of CAA, and the comments made by several others, are misplaced, misinformed and unwarranted. India's constitution guarantees freedom of religion to all its citizens. There are no grounds for any concern or treatment of minorities, Jaiswal added.

[chetak]

Bharat Sarkar replies to the US' “Concern over CAA":- THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND INDIA's PLURALISTIC TRADITIONS, BETTER NOT ATTEMPT LECTURING. THIS IS OUR INTERNAL MATTER".


when was the last time that the amrikans were spoken to like this. It's like a kick to the solar plexus


https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 67291.html

The Citizenship Amendment Act 2019 is an internal matter of India and it is in line with the country’s inclusive traditions and a long-standing commitment to human rights, the Ministry of External Affairs spokesperson Randhir Jaiswal said on March 15. He was responding to United States expressing concerns over the implementation of the Act.

While defending CAA, Jaiswal said, “The act grants a safe haven to persecuted minorities belonging to Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Parsi and Christian communities from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh who have entered India on or before 31st December 2014. The CAA is about giving citizenship, not about taking away citizenship, so this must be underlined.” Lectures by those who have a limited understanding of India's pluralistic traditions and the region's post-partition history are best not attempted, Randhir Jaiswal said.

"The CAA addresses the issue of statelessness, provides human dignity and supports human rights," Jaiswal said, asserting that the law is an internal matter of India. The CAA, 2019 is in keeping with India's inclusive traditions and long-standing commitment to human rights, he added.

Further, in a slightly stern response, Jaiswal said the US State Department's statement on the implementation of CAA, and the comments made by several others, are misplaced, misinformed and unwarranted. India's constitution guarantees freedom of religion to all its citizens. There are no grounds for any concern or treatment of minorities, Jaiswal added.

US Sends Letter of Acceptance for acquisition of 31 numbers of MQ9B Predator drones despite India's Strong Reply to the US on the CAA and the gurpatwant singh pannun issue

[Sonugn]

US state agencies are going to investigate alleged crimes committed by Adani & his associates in India via Bloomberg

Investigation & blacklisting of Adani & his associates due to them funding "hate" & "Islamophobia" are a pet talk of global leftists & their Islamist masters.

[srin]

Since when did alleged crimes in India by an Indian company come under US jurisdiction ?

[Yagnasri]

Please look at the efforts to expose donors of Indian political parties by an externally funded NGO in the same light. Efforts are on to browbeat the donors to donate to political parties approved by external forces.

[sanjayc]

Foreign funded NGOs need to be labelled as foreign agents, and this label displayed prominently on their stationary, website, email signatures and visiting cards. Govt. needs to make a law for this

[RCase]

Bharat Sarkar replies to the US' “Concern over CAA":- THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND INDIA's PLURALISTIC TRADITIONS, BETTER NOT ATTEMPT LECTURING. THIS IS OUR INTERNAL MATTER".


when was the last time that the amrikans were spoken to like this. It's like a kick to the solar plexus

Well US needs to first look into its own discriminatory policy in dealing with Green Cards by imposing country wise limits. Unused quota is not utilized to grant folks from countries that have high demand (like India). Isn't this racist? Also the process is so broke that the wait times are insane. The GC process is the gateway to citizenship in the US.

Just as the rules for the GC process is upto the US govt., same is the case with CAA for India.

It is high time the US stop lecturing other countries on their rules of granting citizenship.

Each country, their rules of admitting who will be its citizens.

[sanjayc]

These are followers of Abrahamic cults which don't recognize the right of non-believers to exist. However, to keep the non-believers on the defensive, they keep accusing them of being intolerant of others. (Abrahamics are projecting their own behavior on non-believers in a clever reversal). This hypocrisy needs to be called out

[KL Dubey]

Since when did alleged crimes in India by an Indian company come under US jurisdiction ?

The likely logic is that the US has given loans to Adani.

[Pratyush]

^^^

If that's the case, then Adani is most likely guilty. Because, depending on the nature of the government contract. 3 % to 5 % of the contract value has to be passed back to the party in power.

I have reliable paan wala source for both Tamilnadu and Shri 420 sarkar in Delhi. With one of the worthy already in Tihar without bail.

But in both cases, the company paying bribes was not Adani.

[sanman]

US state agencies are going to investigate alleged crimes committed by Adani & his associates in India via Bloomberg

Investigation & blacklisting of Adani & his associates due to them funding "hate" & "Islamophobia" are a pet talk of global leftists & their Islamist masters.

Indian left-wingers are screeching in the wilderness. They're dumber than Zelensky demanding NATO membership.

Not gonna happen.

[chetak]

US state agencies are going to investigate alleged crimes committed by Adani & his associates in India via Bloomberg

Investigation & blacklisting of Adani & his associates due to them funding "hate" & "Islamophobia" are a pet talk of global leftists & their Islamist masters.

Indian left-wingers are screeching in the wilderness. They're dumber than Zelensky demanding NATO membership.

Not gonna happen.

If it does happen, sanman ji, India should ban US companies of similar net worth from operating in India.

Time we upped the ante and tore them a new one

[sanman]

Indian left-wingers are screeching in the wilderness. They're dumber than Zelensky demanding NATO membership.

Not gonna happen.

If it does happen, sanman ji, India should ban US companies of similar net worth from operating in India.

Time we upped the ante and tore them a new one

Their exposure to us is not the same as our exposure to them.

[KL Dubey]

^^^

If that's the case, then Adani is most likely guilty. Because, depending on the nature of the government contract. 3 % to 5 % of the contract value has to be passed back to the party in power.

I have reliable paan wala source for both Tamilnadu and Shri 420 sarkar in Delhi. With one of the worthy already in Tihar without bail.

But in both cases, the company paying bribes was not Adani.

I don't know the details of the case and what will transpire, but it seems some people can't avoid knee-jerk response. According to the same bloomberg news story:

"The US government concluded that short-seller Hindenburg Research's allegations of corporate fraud against Indian billionaire Gautam Adani weren't applicable to his conglomerate's ports subsidiary before extending his firm as much as $553 million for a container terminal in Sri Lanka, a senior US official said."

For all we know this may be routine paperwork/questions on government forms being claimed as a "probe". And Adani has no shortage of legal staff for such government dealings.

[krithivas]

One more Indian student murdered in the US.

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/vijayaw ... MxLjAuMC4w

[A_Gupta]

From Wikipedia:

Enacted on November 21, 1989, the Lautenberg Amendment, Public Law 101–167, took effect in 1990 which provided refugee status in the United States for nationals from the Soviet Union and later the former Soviet Union, Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania who are Jews, Evangelical Christians, Ukrainian Catholics or Ukrainian Orthodox; as well as nationals of Vietnam, Laos, or Cambodia; and Jews, Christians, Baha’is and other religious minorities from Iran. The Lautenberg measure allowed refugee status to people from historically persecuted groups without requiring them to show that they had been singled out. Under the Lautenberg Amendment, 350,000 to 400,000 Jews from the former Soviet Union which had not presented any form of evidence of persecution gained entry to the United States by October 2002 according to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.

Why only specific religious denominations?

[sanman]

Jaishankar 'Confronts' Biden With CAA-Like Examples In U.S; ‘Lautenberg Amendment...’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM4jp2D0QdU

[sanman]

From Wikipedia:
...
Why only specific religious denominations?

Don't forget the Jackson-Vanik amendment

[A_Gupta]

> Don't forget the Jackson-Vanik amendment

They were very clever to word it so that no explicit denomination appears in there, i.e., as shown below. The specific citizens who did not have the opportunity to emigrate or had a tax on emigration were the Jews of the U.S.S.R., but you wouldn't know that from the text of the legislation, but only from other information.

(a) Actions of nonmarket economy countries making them ineligible for normal trade relations, programs of credits, credit guarantees, or investment guarantees, or commercial agreements To assure the continued dedication of the United States to fundamental human rights, and notwithstanding any other provision of law, on or after January 3, 1975, products from any nonmarket economy country shall not be eligible to receive nondiscriminatory treatment (normal trade relations), such country shall not participate in any program of the Government of the United States which extends credits or credit guarantees or investment guarantees, directly or indirectly, and the President of the United States shall not conclude any commercial agreement with any such country, during the period beginning with the date on which the President determines that such country -

(1) denies its citizens the right or opportunity to emigrate;

(2) imposes more than a nominal tax on emigration or on the visas or other documents required for emigration, for any purpose or cause whatsoever; or

(3) imposes more than a nominal tax, levy, fine, fee, or other charge on any citizen as a consequence of the desire of such citizen to emigrate to the country of his choice, and ending on the date on which the President determines that such country is no longer in violation of paragraph (1), (2), or (3)

[vera_k]

CAA-2019 could have been tailored similarly to grant benefits to people fleeing from the three neighboring countries with state religions long as the beneficiary is not from any cult or sect part of any state religion that has been established in the last 50 years.

But that would not have resulted in fewer complaints or protests.

Although, it can still be phrased that way and this time added to the constitution if its overturned by the supreme court on "secular" grounds.

[KL Dubey]

> Don't forget the Jackson-Vanik amendment

They were very clever to word it so that no explicit denomination appears in there, i.e., as shown below. The specific citizens who did not have the opportunity to emigrate or had a tax on emigration were the Jews of the U.S.S.R., but you wouldn't know that from the text of the legislation, but only from other information.

Trying to understand why this is relevant to the CAA discussion. The CAA is regarding past (already occurred) immigration of persecuted foreigners into India, not emigration of Indians to other countries. In its current form, it has no direct bearing on future immigrations.

As for J-V amendment: if in future some country restricts emigration of certain people (such as PIOs/OCIs etc) to countries of their choice (such as India), I would certainly hope India takes legislative measures to blacklist such countries. In case of Pak, BD, Afg, there was no such "restriction", rather their goal was to push all Hindus out of these countries or convert them to greenery.

[KLNMurthy]

^^^

If that's the case, then Adani is most likely guilty. Because, depending on the nature of the government contract. 3 % to 5 % of the contract value has to be passed back to the party in power.

I have reliable paan wala source for both Tamilnadu and Shri 420 sarkar in Delhi. With one of the worthy already in Tihar without bail.

But in both cases, the company paying bribes was not Adani.

I don't know the details of the case and what will transpire, but it seems some people can't avoid knee-jerk response. According to the same bloomberg news story:

"The US government concluded that short-seller Hindenburg Research's allegations of corporate fraud against Indian billionaire Gautam Adani weren't applicable to his conglomerate's ports subsidiary before extending his firm as much as $553 million for a container terminal in Sri Lanka, a senior US official said."

For all we know this may be routine paperwork/questions on government forms being claimed as a "probe". And Adani has no shortage of legal staff for such government dealings.

Bloomberg is in hock to China, it’s not the first time such hostile reports about India have appeared there.

[disha]

So US Preacher in Chief, US Ambassador to India Sri Gar$hitty has uttered the following:

https://www.wionews.com/world/you-cant- ... caa-700626

‘You can’t give up on principles’: US envoy Garcetti preaches to New Delhi over CAA

...the principles of religious freedom and of equality under the law is a cornerstone of democracy," he said. “You cannot give up on principles, no matter how close you are with friends...,” the US envoy further added.

His comments came a day after US State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller on Thursday (Mar 14) said his nation was concerned over the implementation of the CAA. “We are concerned... we are closely monitoring this law (and) how it will be implemented,” he had said....

From chronology, US SD wanted a stick to beat India, took a question from a Pakistani reporter and made the statement. US Amby Gar$hitty did "woof woof" in response.

Of course both were shown the place:

Sharp rebuke by Indian foreign ministry
The comments by Matthew Miller triggered sharp rebuke from South Block, with India’s foreign ministry saying it didn’t need to take ‘lectures by those who have a limited understanding of India's pluralistic traditions.’

“Partners and well-wishers of India should welcome the intent in this step,” the official spokesperson, Randhir Jaiswal, said.

And both Hon. home minister Sri Amit Shah and Hon. EAM Dr. Jaishankar piled on the pain to US SD and US Amby Sri Gar$hitty

...Amit Shah slams critics
Home Minister Amit Shah, earlier in an interview, explained why the act doesn’t award benefits to Muslim immigrants. In an interview with news agency ANI, Shah said it was India’s “moral and constitutional responsibility to give shelter to those who were part of Akhand Bharat and suffered religious persecution.” Akhand Bharat or Greater India is a historical concept that represents erstwhile India before partition and includes parts of modern-day Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

And

https://www.livemint.com/news/world/eam ... 8517.html

... Jaishankar said, “principles of freedom and equality" are prime in a democracy, S Jaishankar said, “I am not questioning the imperfections of their democracy, their principles or lack of it. I am questioning their understanding of our history."

...Speaking on this, S Jaishankar said, “I have principles too, and one of my principles is an obligation to people who were let down at the time of partition".

“If you are saying you are picking some faiths and not other faiths, I will give you many examples from across the world," Jaishankar said and mentioned the Jackson–Vanik amendment, Lautenberg Amendment, Spector Amendment and so on that fast-tracked citizenships for specific ethics minorities such as Jews and Christians.

This was basically a slap, slap and a kick to US SD and Hon. US Amby to India Chi-Chi Gar$hitty*

* Note: US SD tries to gain leverage. Something they can use at the negotiation table. USCIRF for example is just another leverage tool. There are several others. There are good reasons for one to gain leverage to be used at negotiation table, but such gains have to be done with finesse. Not by crude rah-rah holier-than-thou nonsense by the current US SD. It basically indicates that the current US government is clueless on how to gain leverage. The cold-war tactic of using USCIRF and financing assorted idiots like MaoMata and Stalin in India has run its course.

Interestingly there are enough fanbois of Gar$hitty on this very forum. I am not sure what they have to say now. The only charitable explanation so far is that Gar$hitty who was enjoying his stay in India must have been pulled up and asked to bark "woof woof". I do feel sorry for him, but definitely not sorry for his masters...

[sanjaykumar]

Now I have to look up all those amendments

At any rate, that’s how the game is played.

Of course this is the GDP of both parties speaking. But one has a meteoric recent rise in growth rate.

Trudeau can be expected to also rub it in with all the Sikh istudents applying for refugee status. As a Canadian taxpayer, our food banks and social support programs are meant for Canadians fallen on hard times. Not for istudents from panjab to dine at the public purse. They should look to their own langars.

There are many deserving refugees. I was involved in a Chinese who had demonstrated against the communist party and professed religion. She was practically debilitated by anxiety. I am happy that the Canadian government gave her refugee status and I am happy to pay my share.

I don’t know if Canadians need automatically fund the oppressed in panjab. But then it is Hindus who are oppressed in panjab.

But they don’t bellyache. Just like the maharashtarian Brahmins don’t bellyache for their genocidal victimisation after Gandi’s death. It is cultural, I suppose.

[SRajesh]

Can I ask how many Middle Eastern peaceful have been given asylum in US
I mean starting from Kuwait war Unkil has been the Vinashkari in every human disaster in that region
Does anyone has a ball park figure??

[vimal]

Forget about peaceful communities. US immigration law keeps legal immigrants from India from gaining green card and citizenship using archaic laws. Time to ask US to repeal these inhuman, racist and discriminatory laws. Don’t get mad, get even.

[VenkataS]

I think it should have been labelled as the "Persecuted Religious Minorities Act" (PRMA) to accurately represent what it is. This approach should be followed in the future to minimize disruptions to the important work that is being done by the Govt.

[sanjayc]

I think it should have been labelled as the "Persecuted Religious Minorities Act" (PRMA) to accurately represent what it is. This approach should be followed in the future to minimize disruptions to the important work that is being done by the Govt.

It should actually be "Protection of Non-believers from Abrahamic Persecution Act." The common strand is persecution of non-believers (especially polytheists) by Abrahamic Faiths (Christians and Muslims). India is the land of non-believers, and all pagans look to India for inspiration and leadership.

[disha]

Forget about peaceful communities. US immigration law keeps legal immigrants from India from gaining green card and citizenship using archaic laws. Time to ask US to repeal these inhuman, racist and discriminatory laws. Don’t get mad, get even.

People on GC row can sue USCIS. There is a legal precedence to it. In fact, 25 years back, there were bunch of Indians (moi included) supported the team that sued USCIS. Several changes came after that, including digital fingerprinting and fingerprinting done by 3rd party private players. Also the rule at that time was if someone is on H1-b for 6 years, they have to leave US mandatorily for 1 year before coming back. That rule was removed.

It is time for the new set of people on GC row to pick this up and move the USCIS.