Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

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ernest
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ernest »

drnayar wrote: 12 Jan 2024 00:54
ernest wrote: 11 Jan 2024 23:50
Is there any particular advantage of the t72 chassis over the t90 ..? That could explain the reason?
My only guess would be cost. That is something that we don't know as of know. Maybe it is a good compromise to get most bang for the buck, or maybe it is penny wise, pound foolish. Let's hope the people involved have thought through this well.
Yagnasri wrote: 12 Jan 2024 05:35 Many decisions of the IA regarding the Tanks do not make sense to mango people. But at least in this case, they are using local products. Plus, as we are only proposing to upgrade just 1000 and not all, maybe they are using only good hulls. Anyway, some good upgrade is better than nothing.
yes, if this is the better version of already proposed upgrades for T-72. Does anyone know about the status of combat improved Ajeya program? how many were upgraded and what's the duration. Maybe Atharva is a successor or taking a share of CIA. My main concern is that it feels bad to limit a significant chunk of our armored manpower to a fundamentally old design that we are going to keep using well into future. Just like Mig-21.
One would hope that a bigger share of funds is diverted to Arjun/FMBT/Zorawar, and we move on from Russian designs and not continue to upgrade them (at least the T-72. T-90s would obviously continue for a few decades ).
A new design (it is well beyond an upgrade like CIA) like Atharva might easily consume a decade before properly entering service, and the utility might not be that great compared to new designs by that time.

The more we flog them, the more our infra/logistics/workshops will be tied to them and make it costlier for new designs to be inducted (remember the bridge). It would be good if we can upgrade and sell them to other armies that need them more.

It is good that IA is using local products, it is just that mango people feel the same local products/ecosystem can be better utilized in a different upgrade path (specialist vehicles/UGV/pillboxes/replaced with T-90 like Pratyush said), based on our limited knowledge.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Tanaji wrote: 12 Jan 2024 00:21 That too with the smallest HP to weight ratio. Wonder what the ratio is for Arjun…

Anything but Arjun.
IIRC approx 20 bhp/ton for the original version (approx 68 tons) then improved to approx 24 bhp/ton for the upgraded variant (approx 58 tons)

Coupled with a effective hydropneumatic suspension and one could understand why it was nicknamed the 'Desert Ferrari'...
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Cross posting from the Army thread.
sanjayc wrote: 13 Jan 2024 14:15 Can't Arjun be downsized to T-90 specifications? It will be easy for DRDO to design a new tank of the same size and weight as T-90 and use all of Arjun's technologies in it.
It will be easier to add an extra set of road wheels to the T 72/90 chassis and build a new turret with a bustle autoloader for the vehicle.

This new vehicle should be possible at 52.5 to 55 tons.

It will have the space needed to address the primary short comings of the basic vehicle.

But, if, you are going this far, then you already have Arjun.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1748592 ... 54164?s=20 ---> Important info we missed sending at Vibrant Gujrat held recently.

As informed by our rep @lca_tejas_ : Arjun ARRV (Armoured Recovery & Repair Vehicle) has completed all trials with Indian Army. IA to procure 10 vehicles from BEML as a start.

Pix 1 & 2: Our rep
Pix 3 & 4 DRDO/BEML

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by R Charan »

Army Deployed Indigenous Light Specialist Armoured Vehicles (LSVs) in J&K for Special Duties

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In a boost to operational capabilities in the sensitive Jammu & Kashmir region, the Ordnance Depot, Avadi, under the aegis of the Dakshin Bharat Area of the Indian Army, has dispatched Light Specialist Armoured Vehicles (LSVs). These indigenously designed and developed vehicles offer crucial advantages for special duties, thanks to their modularity, adaptability, and impressive performance specifications.
https://defence.in/threads/army-deploye ... ties.3297/
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

India likely to use indigenous engines in Arjun tanks as German engines getting delayed by 4 years
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 213204209/
13 Feb 2024

Getting screwed over by Germany for Arjun-Mk1a engines. 2 lessons:

1) Become independent in powerplant. Otherwise we run from pillar to post.

2) This particular screw-up is squarely on the IA's DGMF. The order came so late that the Germans are saying it will take them 48 months to restart the assembly line!

The Armed Forces rigmarole of piecemeal orders, letting lines go idle & another emergency piecemeal order which gets delayed - is costing our National Security.

War is too important to be left to the Generals.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Engine (of whatever kind) is the achilles’ heel of India.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/EngineAvadi/status/175695 ... 29155?s=20 ---> On 13 Feb 2024, Shri Giridhar Aramane, IAS, Defence Secretary, MoD, will visit Engine Factory Avadi. The focus will be on the progress of the Arjun Engine Repair project and demonstrations of repaired Arjun MBT engines.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/EngineAvadi/status/175743 ... 45979?s=20 ---> 1,400 hp Arjun MBT powerpack.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote: 13 Feb 2024 21:38 India likely to use indigenous engines in Arjun tanks as German engines getting delayed by 4 years
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 213204209/
13 Feb 2024
https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1757 ... 11948?s=20 ---> Hilarious stuff. Way back, DRDO approached Indian Army for an order quantity to license these engines and transmissions. Only an order for 124 MBTs was placed, later 118. As versus 1,000+ T-90s from Russia. Now, decades later, we still want Germany to keep the line open for us.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1757 ... 48256?s=20 ---> So DRDO's 1500 hp "DATRAN" will replace the existing German engine in 4 years.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by uddu »

DRDO's 1,500 hp engine prototype for FMBT passes initial test
https://idrw.org/drdos-1500hp-engine-pr ... tial-test/
05 Jan 2024

Indian T-90 tanks getting muscle upgrade
https://idrw.org/indian-t-90-tanks-gett ... g-arsenal/
10 Feb 2024

DRDO 1500 HP DATRAN engine in ARJUN MK1A

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

uddu wrote: 14 Feb 2024 07:18...
Please do not post just links in posts. Please put the title of the article and date.

With YouTube videos, please put the video in the link. Please click on the edit button on your post to see how it is done.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2024 07:09
Prem Kumar wrote: 13 Feb 2024 21:38 India likely to use indigenous engines in Arjun tanks as German engines getting delayed by 4 years
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 213204209/
13 Feb 2024
https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1757 ... 11948?s=20 ---> Hilarious stuff. Way back, DRDO approached Indian Army for an order quantity to license these engines and transmissions. Only an order for 124 MBTs was placed, later 118. As versus 1,000+ T-90s from Russia. Now, decades later, we still want Germany to keep the line open for us.
I don't understand the thinking by the Indian army.

IIRC, the Arjun Mk1 is powered by MTU 838. However, the Germans themselves have moved on to the MTU 883. That produces 1650 hp.

Given the weight of MK1A is growing as a result of extra protection and mine ploughs. Then why still insist on MTU 838.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

That's because the DGMF doesn't give a suck about Arjun. They are just leading DRDO & the country by the nose.

They want to strip-mine all the Tech from Arjun to retrofit into the useless tin-cans. Powerplant, armor, CLGM, uncooled night vision, commander/gunner sights, electronics etc

The T-90 is the Ship of Theseus - after how many changes will it still remain the T-90? After a decade, we might as well rename Bhishma to Arjun and call it a day!
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Prem Kumar wrote: 14 Feb 2024 11:27 That's because the DGMF doesn't give a suck about Arjun. They are just leading DRDO & the country by the nose.

They want to strip-mine all the Tech from Arjun to retrofit into the useless tin-cans. Powerplant, armor, CLGM, uncooled night vision, commander/gunner sights, electronics etc

The T-90 is the Ship of Theseus - after how many changes will it still remain the T-90? After a decade, we might as well rename Bhishma to Arjun and call it a day!
And we continue to buy more and feed Russian coffers ?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote: 14 Feb 2024 10:07 ...

IIRC, the Arjun Mk1 is powered by MTU 838. However, the Germans themselves have moved on to the MTU 883. That produces 1650 hp.

Given the weight of MK1A is growing as a result of extra protection and mine ploughs. Then why still insist on MTU 838.
Is there any info on the specs other than the horse power and the number of cylinders of the two engines.

Torque bands, operating temperature range, power drop across altitudes, MTBF, maintenance frequency, on field repair capabilities/complexities...

The MTU 838 has been around for decades and is a known entity without too many changes in the latest variant...

Although since the Arjun is in small numbers it might not be that risky to try a new Gen engine in it.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The MTU 883 is currently powering the latest versions of the following.

1) Leopard 2 latest versions.
2) Merkava 4 for over 15 years .
3) the tropicalised Leclerc in service with the UAE for over 20 years.
4) the lot 1 of the South Korean K2.

If inspite of this, MTU 883 represents an unproven option. Then there is nothing to say.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/hukum2082/status/1757635478168187306?s=20 ---> The Arjun Engine Repair Project (AERP) exists because in all certainty , MTU communicated the product phase out of the 1400 HP MTU MB 838 Ka-501 engine and cessation of spares support to @EngineAvadi.This is a mandatory exercise where existing customers are given a heads-up much in advance. The DATRAN 1500 HP is an independent project being run by @CVRDE_Avadi and @BEMLltd for Project Arjun and Project FMBT and is on the positive indigenization list of 2022.

The blame for this fiasco lies squarely on the @adgpi which deliberately sabotaged the Arjun Mk1 and Mk1A by placing meagre orders of 124 and 118 units and throwing the concept of Economic order quantity (EOQ) into the trash can. MTU is no position to supply engines as the existing assembly lines are busy churning out engines for the ongoing war in Ukraine. Amidst all this , no sensible manufacturer will reopen a line for a puny order of engines from @EngineAvadi.

For all practical purposes the reopening of the MTU MB 838 Ka-501 engine line is a mirage and the 4 year timeline given by MTU is a polite way of letting the realization kick in. Someone mashed up all this into baby food, added some anti German rhetoric and served it to our gullible journos as some kind of masterstroke. This usually happens when all you do is regurgitate gibberish without making any effort to follow indigenous programs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1757697 ... 29515?s=20 ---> The 1,500 hp powerpack plan is in firm footing as we know, however there must have been reason that even till late last year they had MTU engine procurement plan. Below is from Dec 2023 CVRDE.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Rakesh wrote: 14 Feb 2024 07:09
Prem Kumar wrote: 13 Feb 2024 21:38 India likely to use indigenous engines in Arjun tanks as German engines getting delayed by 4 years
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 213204209/
13 Feb 2024
https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1757 ... 11948?s=20 ---> Hilarious stuff. Way back, DRDO approached Indian Army for an order quantity to license these engines and transmissions. Only an order for 124 MBTs was placed, later 118. As versus 1,000+ T-90s from Russia. Now, decades later, we still want Germany to keep the line open for us.
My dirty pessimistic mind tells me that all this is a natak to buy Russian stuff
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

In my very humble opinion MTU is the best diesel engine manufacturer in the world. Others e.g. GE/GM are their licensees.

But we will fool around and finally buy some MTURuzoski from Russia
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

It is not so easy to design and manufacture a 1500 - 1600 hp diesel engine from the scratch. MTU and others have been making these products since decades and when they are charging an arm and a leg it is for their experience.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote: 14 Feb 2024 18:10 ...
If inspite of this, MTU 883 represents an unproven option. Then there is nothing to say.
Not unproven in general, rather unproven by us. We undergo decades of rigorous trials (albeit for desi maal)
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Army eyes ₹57,000cr project to make combat vehicles to replace T-72 tanks
NEW DELHI: Dismissing reports about tank's death as "greatly exaggerated", 12-lakh strong Indian Army is going in for a major upgrade of its existing tanks, as well as gearing up to induct new-generation ones for battles of the future.
Senior officers contend the wide-scale destruction of Russian tanks by drones, man-portable anti-tank missiles, NLAWs (next-generation light anti-tank weapons) and artillery in the ongoing war with Ukraine, especially in the initial days, was more due to "poor tactics" rather than anything else.
For one, Russia deployed tanks without adequate logistics chains. For another, tanks were not adequately backed by infantry, artillery, electronic warfare and close-air support units.
"The critical 'combined-arms operations' were missing. Tanks remain relevant for both offensive and defensive operations. There is no other platform that provides requisite mobility, firepower and armoured protection in large-scale ground battles," a senior officer said.

"Our future tank projects are being planned with enhanced survivability, especially against aerial threats, as well as connectivity. Requisite anti-drone safeguards will ensure both individual tank protection as well as area protection for force survivability," he added.
Consequently, Army plans to issue the RFP (request for proposal) this year for the estimated Rs 57,000 crore mega project to produce 1,770 future ready combat vehicles (FRCVs) in India to replace the old Russian-origin T-72 tanks from 2030 onwards.

"The FRCVs will have niche technologies to include AI (artificial intelligence), drone integration, active protection system, high degree of situational awareness and manned-unmanned teaming capability. It will be able to synergise and integrate with all elements of land and air in a network-centric environment," another officer said.
Along with a fleet of 2,400 T-72 tanks, Army has so far inducted 1,200 T-90S 'Bhishma' tanks of the 1,657 being produced by the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi under licence from Russia.

The force will also this year induct the first five of the 118 indigenous Arjun Mark-1A tanks, with 14 major and 57 minor "upgrades" to enhance firepower, mobility, endurance and protection, ordered for Rs 7,523 crore in Sept 2021. These 118 "improved" tanks will add to the first 124 Arjun tanks inducted well over a decade ago.

Then, there are the 354 indigenous light tanks for high-altitude warfare to be inducted under Project Zorawar for around Rs 17,500 crore. The need for such tanks, each weighing less than 25 tonnes with a high power-to-weight ratio as well as superior firepower and protection, has been driven home by the continuing almost four-year-long military confrontation with China in eastern Ladakh.

While 59 of these light tanks are reserved for DRDO, the rest 295 are to be manufactured under the government-funded design and development 'Make-1' category, as was first reported by TOI.

"After DRDO completes its internal trials of the light tank prototypes, they will be offered to the Army for summer and winter trials, which will take a couple of years," an official said.


Several upgrade plans are also under way. The Army, for instance, has now got its pending proposal for inducting 1000-horsepower engines for its T-72 fleet, to replace the existing 780 hp ones, approved by the defence ministry. Under this Rs 2,300 crore plan, 200 engines will be directly imported, while 800 will be made in India.

"T-72s are also getting thermal sights, fire detection and suppression, and other systems. The T-90S tanks, in turn, are getting automatic target trackers, digital ballistic computers and commander thermal imagers," the officer said.


"The FRCVs will be inducted in three phases, with 590 in the first one. Each phase will see induction of newer technologies to ensure the highest level of survivability, lethality and agility. Tanks, by no means, are dead," he added.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

IA's requirements for FMBT have again set it up for failure. Surprisingly IA has asked for a 4 man crew for the FMBT, with a maximum allowable weight of upto 58 tons. Currently not a single 4 man crew MBT exists that weighs less than 60 tons. IAs own inventory currently has 95% of the tanks with a 3 man crew with an autoloader. The most logical solution would have been to go with a 3 man crew with a turret based autoloader system, similar to either the French Le Clerc or the new Russian T-15 Armata tank. The resultant reduction in the width of the tank, would lead to lower weight and target of 58 tons would be within reach, with adequate levels of protection.

With a 4 man crew, achieving a maximum weight of 58 tons, with all the bells and whistles will be almost impossible. Also, it would restrict the size of the gun that can be used. Manual loading is not possible for 130mm guns. Not sure if it would be possible for a 125mm L51 and L55 gun. For a 120mm gun, the weight of the rounds is OK for manual loading. For the new 130mm gun unveiled by Rheinmetal, they confirmed that the weight of the rounds would mandate using an autoloader. This would mean that mostly DRDO would have to stick with a 120mm size, but with smooth bore in place of rifled bore as developed for the Arjun. Going with a higher 125mm or 130mm gun would have given more firepower, plus would enable the tank to fire longer range gun launched missiles which could be sued for both anti-armour and anti-helicopter roles.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

VinodTK wrote: 19 Feb 2024 03:37 Army eyes ₹57,000cr project to make combat vehicles to replace T-72 tanks
.................................


Several upgrade plans are also under way. The Army, for instance, has now got its pending proposal for inducting 1000-horsepower engines for its T-72 fleet, to replace the existing 780 hp ones, approved by the defence ministry. Under this Rs 2,300 crore plan, 200 engines will be directly imported, while 800 will be made in India.
.
Why import 200 engines? CVRDE has developed both the T-72s 780 HP and the T-90s 1,000 HP engines in house. These are reverse engineered 100% indigenous engines. Why pay the Russians some more for this. Makes no sense, unless they want help from the Russians to mate the T-90s V92S engines to the T-72s gearbox and are not confident of doing it on their own. This would be absurd, but cannot be ruled out.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

WRT, the weight of the tank. The new concept vehicles presented by both the Americans and the Germans are both under 60 tons. One has space for a crew of 4 and the other has a 3 manned crew.

So it's possible to do what the Indian army is asking for.

But I have no confidence in the Indian Army's ability to manage the program in a suitable manner.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1759490 ... 56076?s=20 ---> The reasoning behind the reported import + license production of a 1,000 hp engine for the Army's T-72 fleet - even as the CVRDE-developed uprated engine had cleared most hurdles - would be interesting to know. @EngineAvadi could be a safe choice for either option, as production partner.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Click on link below to read the Army's RFI on the FRCV. Enjoy with popcorn :P

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1759 ... 20326?s=20 ---> All information regarding FRCV program.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by srin »

Thanks. Doesn't even say if the gun is smooth bore or rifled ...
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

Rakesh wrote: 20 Feb 2024 20:50 Click on link below to read the Army's RFI on the FRCV. Enjoy with popcorn :P

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1759 ... 20326?s=20 ---> All information regarding FRCV program.
Rakesh
For Whom these RFI Toll:
Weight 50+/- 5%: :roll:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
55 +/- 5% tons
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Arjun MBT Mk.1A already fulfills most of what is described in that RFI
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

srin wrote: 20 Feb 2024 21:30 Thanks. Doesn't even say if the gun is smooth bore or rifled ...
Don't you think, that this decision should become relevant once the vehicle has been designed by the Indian vendor and is approaching the end of user testing.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Types of ammunition gives it away

Mentioned:
HEAT -> smoothbore (typical)

Not mentioned:
HESH -> rifled
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

:rotfl: How these people became and continue to serve as Armoured Corps officers is baffling.

After Killing Arjun, Army Sets Up Next-Generation Tank Project For Failure
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/after-k ... or-failure
22 Feb 2024
The new qualitative requirements (QRs) drafted by the army for the FRCV are unreasonable and follow its penchent of setting marvel-comics-like QRs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by srin »

So, one interesting question from the Swarajyamag article: what is the point of the 4th crew member if you are requiring an autoloader ?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Great to see someone in the media unequivocally criticizing these nonsensical QR's. CVRDE should refuse to participate in this wild goose chase. Nor do I think setting these types of QR's is a result of benign incompetence, because if the QR's are impossible to attain there is a 100% chance of eventually complaining about the indigenous attempt having failed and calling for "emergency procurement" of a foreign product which also does not meet the QR's but is available immediately.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

This QR is designed for the CVRDE to fail or not participate altogether. When that happens (and it will), imports will be argued for. Either the T-14 Armata or the K2 Black Panther will come. Regardless of whatever horse manure is written in that QR, that is what will happen.
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