Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

[nash]

This is RFI issued in June 2021:

https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... CV_(2).pdf

Some salient points:

Combat Weight not to exceed 55+5% Tons.

Crew – four (04).

Main Gun. Minimum 120mm and above calibre. Capable of firing the following ammunition an engagement of targets in static and dynamic mode by day and night.

Power Pack. Minimum 1500 HP engine with a minimum life of 750 engine hours without overhaul. De-rating facility to cater for High Altitude Area operations

P/W Ratio. Not less than 27:1 HP/Ton

Ammunition Loading & Stowage. Ammunition should be auto- loaded with minimum 16 rounds ready for auto loading along with provision for Semi-Automatic and Manual Loading.All ammunition should be stored in easily accessible containerised compartments (Bustle Loader), with suitable
safety measures like Blow-Off Panels.


Army want auto-loading but not fully automated , hence the requirement of 4 crew. Does any other Tank in the world has these type of requirement?

Weight is in range of 55-58 Tons, Engine should be > 1500 HP and P/W > 27:1. Basically, if we have to maintain the given P/W with 1500HP engine then weight should not greater than 55 Tons, it means that 5% margin won't make any sense unless Army provide same margin to P/W.

[bala]

Raksha Rajya Mantri rides Arjun Mark1A Main Battle Tank.
Claiming delivery from 2024. - Indian Defense Analysis

On 05th Sep 2023, the Raksha Rajya Mantri, Shri Ajay Bhatt visited DRDO’s Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi, Chennai. He interacted with the scientists and reviewed the progress of on-going projects of the laboratory, evincing keen interest in the advanced systems developed by CVRDE. The images of the Arjun tank what you are seeing is from his recent visit.

The Raksha Rajya Mantri also took a ride in the Main Battle Tank (Arjun Mk I A) and got familiarized with the advanced features of this indigenously developed tank. He appreciated the CVRDE fraternity for their unstinted efforts and contributions in the development of defence systems and emphasized the importance of the self-reliance in R&D systems. He commended DRDO’s efforts in empowering the nation with ‘Make in India’ concept. The Indian Army’s inventory presently boasts 124 Arjun MBTs, which, at a formidable 68.25 tons, rank among the heaviest tanks in the world.

Army to get Arjun Mark1A from 2024.

In the year 2021, MoD has placed an order for 118 MBT Arjun Mark-1A worth Rs 7,523 crore activating the AVNL (Armoured Vehicle Nigam Limited) production line which was idle for almost 10 years. The first batch of Arjun MBT will be delivered to Indian Army by March 2024 and the order is expected to be complete by 2026. It has also been reported that DRDO has approached Indian Army for more orders of Arjun Mark-1A.



Arjun Mk1A has got 4 upgrades under firepower segment. This include an improved Gunner's Main Sight (GMS) integrated with Automatic Target Tracking (ATT) which helps the crew to track moving target automatically making it easy for the gunner to fire even when the tank is on the move.

Arjun MK1A has been upgraded with a Remote-Controlled Weapon Station that provides loader the capability of engaging ground targets and aerial targets from a protective envelop of the tank armour. It also provides an additional capability to fight in urban area called Hatch-closed firing.

Protection

The Arjun MBT is protected by indigenously designed Kanchan composite armour that consists of ceramic tiles and composite panels sandwiched between rolled homogeneous armour (RHA) plates which has been tested against a variety of modern anti-tank munitions, including APFSDS.

The Arjun tanks are also protected with ultra-high strength low alloy DMR-1700 steel armour plates developed by the DMRL, which offers 20-25% more protection against kinetic energy penetrator projectiles.

The frontal arc of the hull and the turret of the Arjun Mk-1A is fitted with new ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) protection.

Another key feature added is a Containerised Ammunition Bin with Individual Shutter (CABIS) regarding which we have already discussed. Arjun Mk-1A has protection against chemical attacks. A special chemical sensor is mounted to detect the presence of harmful toxic chemicals in the atmosphere around the tank. The tank crew get air through a particulate filter for their survival.

Battle management system

The battlefield management system of the Arjun tank has been developed by the DRDO and Ebit Israel. The system connects the tank to other fighting units in the battlefield. It is also equipped with GPS-based navigation systems. Upgrades to the tank include a laser warning control system (LWCS), a tank urban survival kit (aerosol smoke grenade system, IR jammer and laser warning) and tank simulators.

The Laser Warning and Counter Measure System protects the crew by creating a smokescreen between itself and the enemy and Anti Infra-Red / Anti Thermal Imaging paints that reduce the signature of the tank when viewed using an IR/TI camera or goggles making the tank difficult to be detected by enemies.

[chetak]

The IA has issued a Request for Information (RFI) for new ARVs (05 Sept)


In current usage is the Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) armoured recovery vehicle. The BEML built WZT-3 ARV, is based on the Russian-made T-72 tank hull.

[Pratyush]

IDRW, published a report saying that Mahindra - DRDO. WhAP is heading for user trials.

It's a 8*8 wheeled vehicle. Based on the earlier DRDO TATA effort.

L&T is also fabricating it's version of this vehicle.

[sajaym]

https://defence-blog.com/indian-t-90-ta ... se-on-top/

Recent images circulated on social media showed Indian T-90S main battle tanks with large ‘Cope Cages’ on top.

These tanks with these rather unconventional structures were identified as part of the Western Command of the Indian Army, responsible for the border with Pakistan.

OSINT analysts referred to these attachments as “Cope Cages,” a sarcastic nickname for structures placed around tanks in the hope of providing protection against drones, missiles, or other anti-tank weapons.

I thought it was proved that these were of no use???

[Pratyush]

They're of no questionable utility against modern top attack anti tank missiles, such as Hellfire and Javelin missiles .

But are useful in terms of;

1) defeating top attack from drone dropped anti armour granade.

2) Breaking up of the shape of the tank. Thereby, defeating specific versions of Tow 2 missiles. That perform, overfly top attack using downward firing HEAT jet at the top of the turret and the engine deck.

https://youtu.be/C_nvA6d5CNk?si=wkk5LRIsmXaXLwes

An example of such an attack is in the you tube link above.

They do so, either by confusing the fuse, or increasing the distance the HEAT jet has to cover before it comes into contact with the tank armour.

The Pakistanis are liberally supplied with TOW 2 missiles.

[Rakesh]

Display model of Arjun Mk1A at the Seoul International Aerospace and Defense Exhibition.

https://x.com/RETHIK5706/status/1714899 ... 52280?s=20 --->

[Nikhil_Naya]

+++ Paanwallah alert+++

We might see some major improvement in the Armoured Mobility of the infantry soon. An existing vehicle that was ordered by the CAPFs has proven itself and orders are expected. Also, modularity testing is ongoing so expect versions like MC, AA, etc soon.

[VinodTK]

US and India to co-produce armored vehicles to counter China

The US and India will co-produce Stryker armored vehicles, as the two countries push to counter China’s rising military might in Asia.
The announcement, made by a senior US defense official, came during the annual 2+2 ministerial consultations being held between the countries’ foreign and defense ministers in New Delhi.
The initiative “will strengthen the shared security of our countries by diversifying supply chains and supporting interoperability between our militaries,” US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin said Friday in New Delhi.The vehicles will help India push back against China along their disputed border, while also reducing New Delhi’s long-term dependence on Russian weapons. The announcement comes as part of a multi-year effort to strengthen US-India ties through intelligence sharing, technology transfer and bolstered diplomatic ties. It also helps Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s bid to expand India’s industrial base

[Atmavik]

+++ Paanwallah alert+++

We might see some major improvement in the Armoured Mobility of the infantry soon. An existing vehicle that was ordered by the CAPFs has proven itself and orders are expected. Also, modularity testing is ongoing so expect versions like MC, AA, etc soon.

Long live the Paanwallah..

[Pratyush]

US and India to co-produce armored vehicles to counter China

Why Stryker?

When the US army itself is dissatisfied with the vehicle.

Especially, when India has developed a perfectly serviceable vehicle for our needs.

[YashG]

US and India to co-produce armored vehicles to counter China

Why Stryker?

When the US army itself is dissatisfied with the vehicle.

Especially, when India has developed a perfectly serviceable vehicle for our needs.

So that MoD officials can make some commission and their appendages in armed forces also make some money.

[NRao]

US and India to co-produce armored vehicles to counter China

Why Stryker?

When the US army itself is dissatisfied with the vehicle.

.......

I would be interested in where you got the news that the US Army was dissatisfied with the Stryker. Seriously.

Also, be aware that the Stryker is used by the US Marine Corps too!!!! And, they are two different beasts. Naturally.

So, before we come to any conclusion, first we need to find out which "Stryker" Bharat figures to co-produce. I suspect the Army version (which IMO would be a travesty, but, ....).

______________________

I was planning on addressing the topic of the Kestral in the Geo thread. IMO, Tata has gone rogue. He has invited Medhi Hassan ( a known Hinduphobic) to address some gatherings in India and in the past week (Natarajan Chandrasekaran) funded New York Academy of Sciences to solve medical problems in India - I view this (the NY agreement) to be a data transfer of Indian medical data (including genetic) to the US - something Modi has been fighting for some time now (Modi fought Ajay Banga - ex-CEO MasterCard and current CEO of World Bank on the same topic - Indian Data being transferred abroad!)

IMO, Ratan Tata the patriarch feels that Modi is favoring Adani, etc, and therefore has gone rogue. IF this is indeed the case, it is best Tata sells Kestral for the good of the nation.



Ratan Tata is the problem, not Kestral.

[Pratyush]

WRT, the Kestral.

1) The proclivities of Ratan Tata, have no bearing on the procurement of the vehicle by the Indian military.

2) The numbers of orders of the current vehicle are insufficient for the sustained production of the vehicle by TATA beyond a few years at the most. There needs to be a follow up order soon. Or the vehicle's production line will be discontinued.

3) DRDO has transferred the IP of the Kestral/ WhAP to Mahindra and Larson & Tubro as well. With those two entities currently fabricating their own take on the vehicle.

A) URL for the Mahindra 8*8 WhAP.

https://www.facebook.com/NextGeneration ... 076589788/

B ) Link showing the scaled model of the L&T design, this appears to under fabrication.
https://idrw.org/tatas-whap-to-face-com ... companies/

4) Indian military market might be large. But it's not large enough to absorb all the production from, TATA, Mahindra, L&T. Plus the striker.

5) WRT, dissatisfaction with the Striker, I had seen some tanknet forum posts a long time ago cribbing about the vehicle. I will have to search through those once again.

[Atmavik]

a nice thread on IC engine issue of our PVT auto industry. we should not be importing 700 HP engine as heavy duty trucks and earth movers use this class . we need to ask serious questions of ourselves

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 0927022188

[Rakesh]

Indian Army issues RFI to restore T-72 tanks
https://defence.in/threads/indian-army- ... tanks.626/
22 Nov 2023

[NRao]

(Ret) Lt. Gen Narayanan, on the Alternative Media podcast, stated that the yet-to-be-agreed-upon Stryker deal is not for the Indian Army, but to provide support for the US in the event of a conflict between US-China. MRO, etc. Just like the support that the USN has in India.

[chetak]

+++ Paanwallah alert+++

We might see some major improvement in the Armoured Mobility of the infantry soon. An existing vehicle that was ordered by the CAPFs has proven itself and orders are expected. Also, modularity testing is ongoing so expect versions like MC, AA, etc soon.

Nikhil ji,

there is no protection against an IED weighing 1-1.5 tons, buried in the ground and being triggered to go off when the vehicle passes over the spot.

this is what the naxals are using and the security forces haven't found anything to counter this. The explosion often kills by shock alone with the armoured vehicle being tossed a distance of 30-40 meters away from the point of impact. The naxals have the easy option of simply packing in 2-3 times increased weight of the IED


professionals may use the far more effective range of similarly rigged IED explosives in the semtex, C-4 category.


At one stage, the GoI was seriously considering the purchase of amriki Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles used by their forces in afghanistan (whenever these forces departed) while the greedy pakis were cunningly preparing to grab it all for free, which they finally did

our naxals have technical and logistics support from china and other global commie forces further afield

Faced with a $6billion bill to ship their Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles back home, the amrikis preferred to destroy their vehicles in situ but their last minute panic stricken retreat/rout left most of these vehicles undamaged and the pakis have grabbed the bulk of the lot

[Nikhil_Naya]

+++ Paanwallah alert+++

We might see some major improvement in the Armoured Mobility of the infantry soon. An existing vehicle that was ordered by the CAPFs has proven itself and orders are expected. Also, modularity testing is ongoing so expect versions like MC, AA, etc soon.

Nikhil ji,

there is no protection against an IED weighing 1-1.5 tons, buried in the ground and being triggered to go off when the vehicle passes over the spot.

this is what the naxals are using and the security forces haven't found anything to counter this. The explosion often kills by shock alone with the armoured vehicle being tossed a distance of 30-40 meters away from the point of impact. The naxals have the easy option of simply packing in 2-3 times increased weight of the IED


professionals may use the far more effective range of similarly rigged IED explosives in the semtex, C-4 category.


At one stage, the GoI was seriously considering the purchase of amriki Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles used by their forces in afghanistan (whenever these forces departed) while the greedy pakis were cunningly preparing to grab it all for free, which they finally did

our naxals have technical and logistics support from china and other global commie forces further afield

Faced with a $6billion bill to ship their Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles back home, the amrikis preferred to destroy their vehicles in situ but their last minute panic stricken retreat/rout left most of these vehicles undamaged and the pakis have grabbed the bulk of the lot

Saar, 1, 1.5 TON IED will immobillize a b***dy MBT! From the top of my head, the MRAP that the US uses is Stanag IV plus level,which is about 10 kgs of Explosive, though there are claims of 14kg plus (the plus could be another 10 kgs maybe, but not more.

All that is Amreeki is not good!.

Also MRAPs are equally vulnerable to 20mm/30 mm Anti Armour Rifles (Which we have) or a well placed Anti Armour Rocket/ Missile shot as our Indian vehicles.

There are other Infantry Mobility solutions other than MRAPs or Mine Resistant Vehicles. That is not the ONLY risk that our soldiers face (IED's).

An IED might get you once in a while but a 'bullet' can probably get them everytime. A Stanag 3 or equivalent will provide protection in 80% of the use cases that the vehicle will be exposed to.

The key aspect that we all tend to forget is the word "Trade-Off". There will always be trade offs when it comes to design, development and deployments. We will probably never have the proverbial silver bullet solution.

[Pratyush]

The Israelis lost a Merkava to a Hizbulla ied of a gargantuan size.

That's the thing about IEDs. You can make them of any size and power.

The insurgents in Iraq were using old Iraqi army 130 and 155 mm shells rigged as IED against the US army.

[Nikhil_Naya]

That is to the point. IED's can literally be any size. There is no way you can prepare a vehicle which caters to all requirements. To divert a blast of a 1Ton IED, the vehicle will have to have a humongous amount of metal/ composite armour as blast protection, the interiors will have to be designed to take a hell of a beating, drive trains etc. All this will probably make it a mobile pillbox, which may not have the mobility required. So thats where trade offs will come in.

You want speed and mobility - lighter vehicle with decent ground pressure and clearance with a torquey motor, has to be field repairable - cannot have a hunk of metal at the bottom, but provide decent and better protection against MOST threats expected.

[chetak]

Nikhil ji,

there is no protection against an IED weighing 1-1.5 tons, buried in the ground and being triggered to go off when the vehicle passes over the spot.

this is what the naxals are using and the security forces haven't found anything to counter this. The explosion often kills by shock alone with the armoured vehicle being tossed a distance of 30-40 meters away from the point of impact. The naxals have the easy option of simply packing in 2-3 times increased weight of the IED


professionals may use the far more effective range of similarly rigged IED explosives in the semtex, C-4 category.


At one stage, the GoI was seriously considering the purchase of amriki Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles used by their forces in afghanistan (whenever these forces departed) while the greedy pakis were cunningly preparing to grab it all for free, which they finally did

our naxals have technical and logistics support from china and other global commie forces further afield

Faced with a $6billion bill to ship their Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles back home, the amrikis preferred to destroy their vehicles in situ but their last minute panic stricken retreat/rout left most of these vehicles undamaged and the pakis have grabbed the bulk of the lot

Saar, 1, 1.5 TON IED will immobillize a b***dy MBT! From the top of my head, the MRAP that the US uses is Stanag IV plus level,which is about 10 kgs of Explosive, though there are claims of 14kg plus (the plus could be another 10 kgs maybe, but not more.

All that is Amreeki is not good!.

Also MRAPs are equally vulnerable to 20mm/30 mm Anti Armour Rifles (Which we have) or a well placed Anti Armour Rocket/ Missile shot as our Indian vehicles.

There are other Infantry Mobility solutions other than MRAPs or Mine Resistant Vehicles. That is not the ONLY risk that our soldiers face (IED's).

An IED might get you once in a while but a 'bullet' can probably get them everytime. A Stanag 3 or equivalent will provide protection in 80% of the use cases that the vehicle will be exposed to.

The key aspect that we all tend to forget is the word "Trade-Off". There will always be trade offs when it comes to design, development and deployments. We will probably never have the proverbial silver bullet solution.

Nikhil ji,


Heavy and crude IEDs are the norm in naxal areas. MRAPS can/should also be used by antinaxal forces in the interiors. Even raincoat recognized the extreme danger that these naxal forces pose to the Indian union


sadly, "trade-off" is not something to convince martyrs' families, especially in peace time and senseless casualties caused by naxals and jihadis.

It costs crores to train a young army officer (and front line troops) to get them to a position where they gell to become battle hardened, combat experienced teams, with topflight and first-rate leaders who are confident, and capable of leading such front line troops and also, at the same time, be very conscious of the safety of their troops. This is the only place where "trade-off" would actually mean something perceptible, especially when officer casualties are so high in the Indian forces because, sadly, it is the tangible price that is usually paid for that often used but never really understood trite concept of "leading from the front"

This is also multitasking, often under levels of stress completely unknown in civilian life, and hence, believe you me, "trade-off" in protective equipment, whether MRAPS or personal protection gear, would not be one of those phrases that would enthuse them

yes, after producing/purchasing the best MRAPS you can make/buy then one could make the argument of stanag standards and trade offs but never as an initial and basic design parameter. A little effort to meet some higher standards would go a long way in reassuring those in harms way

Stanag III/IV are protected against shaped charges, AP munitions and the like, filled with high powered semtex/C-4 (or better) family of explosives.

the naxals, often lacking technical superiority, usually rely on the fertilizer fuelled or dynamite filled IEDs to make up what they lack in fiery sophistication, by using bulk explosives to generate the required detonative ebullience.

AFAIK, 20mm/30 mm Anti Armour Rifles have not been seen in naxal areas (yet). The naxals are patient and often can wait weeks or even months to set off a IED

In my experience, "trade off" by a dumb and disinterested designer will often come back to bite the user rather viciously in the butt

Nikhil ji, please note that this is not an invitation to debate.

Points have been made all round.

Lets move on

[Nikhil_Naya]

While you have made your points, I would like to ask a couple of pertinent questions

1 - What, is the design parameters that you want to design for? - If the answer is One ton of TNT, then what if the Naxals use a 1.2 ton or more equivalent? ( If they are able to hide a one ton IED, 1.2 ton is not difficult right?) That is why you have standards like STANAG.
2. What is the 'mobility' that you expect from an up-armored vehicle?

Example - lets say we take the Arjun Chassis, strip it of the Turret create a crew compartment instead (with Kanchan Armour, Higher resistance to blast damage etc) at say 40 tons AUW, will this be mobile enough in Jungle trails.

I know it is difficult when we say that the 'trade-off' is worth someone's life - but, its like a point that I heard from an officer - One Intelligence failure is what you see, but there are 100 successes that you don't.

Any designer - or product manufacturer is working under constraints, in many cases that will be cost (better to have 100 decently protected vehicles carrying 800 troops than 20 super protected vehicles carrying 100), protection levels at that particular cost, ease of production (no use designing for something that you may not be able to effectively manufacture), ease of maintenance, fuel consumption (adds to logistics chain - which often is unarmoured), mobility, etc. An optimal balance in these factors is often what is the best solution.

A classic example is the Tejas - the constraint was size and weight - everything else worked around it.

P.S. I know you mentioned that the discussion is over, but that is the beauty of BR compared to others, we can discuss maturely.

[Garooda]

...The key aspect that we all tend to forget is the word "Trade-Off". There will always be trade offs when it comes to design, development and deployments. We will probably never have the proverbial silver bullet solution.

Nikhil_Naya, I agree. There is no 'silver bullet solution' when it comes to war. It is interesting to observe the effectiveness with the use of simple, cheap but modified drones, pickup trucks, ATVs and UTVs which are much more quicker to getaway after inflicting some serious damage to the MBTs in the ongoing Ukraine and Russian war. Plenty of footages available online.

In case of Ukraine, they were able to use existing spares and/or repair armored vehicles and tanks including weaponry with ease due to availability within ukraine. Cheap commercially available drones and lighter but quicker ATV UTV or pickup trucks has certainly made a big impact in both the ongoing wars.

[Rakesh]

...

When quoting another poster, please put the name of the poster in your post. Easier for readers to follow.

Please click on the edit button on your post, to see how this is done. Thank you.

[Garooda]

I did use the poster's first name. Updated full name.

[Karan M]

Saar, 1, 1.5 TON IED will immobillize a b***dy MBT! From the top of my head, the MRAP that the US uses is Stanag IV plus level,which is about 10 kgs of Explosive, though there are claims of 14kg plus (the plus could be another 10 kgs maybe, but not more.

All that is Amreeki is not good!.

Also MRAPs are equally vulnerable to 20mm/30 mm Anti Armour Rifles (Which we have) or a well placed Anti Armour Rocket/ Missile shot as our Indian vehicles.

There are other Infantry Mobility solutions other than MRAPs or Mine Resistant Vehicles. That is not the ONLY risk that our soldiers face (IED's).

An IED might get you once in a while but a 'bullet' can probably get them everytime. A Stanag 3 or equivalent will provide protection in 80% of the use cases that the vehicle will be exposed to.

The key aspect that we all tend to forget is the word "Trade-Off". There will always be trade offs when it comes to design, development and deployments. We will probably never have the proverbial silver bullet solution.

Nikhil ji,


Heavy and crude IEDs are the norm in naxal areas. MRAPS can/should also be used by antinaxal forces in the interiors. Even raincoat recognized the extreme danger that these naxal forces pose to the Indian union


sadly, "trade-off" is not something to convince martyrs' families, especially in peace time and senseless casualties caused by naxals and jihadis.

It costs crores to train a young army officer (and front line troops) to get them to a position where they gell to become battle hardened, combat experienced teams, with topflight and first-rate leaders who are confident, and capable of leading such front line troops and also, at the same time, be very conscious of the safety of their troops. This is the only place where "trade-off" would actually mean something perceptible, especially when officer casualties are so high in the Indian forces because, sadly, it is the tangible price that is usually paid for that often used but never really understood trite concept of "leading from the front"

This is also multitasking, often under levels of stress completely unknown in civilian life, and hence, believe you me, "trade-off" in protective equipment, whether MRAPS or personal protection gear, would not be one of those phrases that would enthuse them

yes, after producing/purchasing the best MRAPS you can make/buy then one could make the argument of stanag standards and trade offs but never as an initial and basic design parameter. A little effort to meet some higher standards would go a long way in reassuring those in harms way

Stanag III/IV are protected against shaped charges, AP munitions and the like, filled with high powered semtex/C-4 (or better) family of explosives.

the naxals, often lacking technical superiority, usually rely on the fertilizer fuelled or dynamite filled IEDs to make up what they lack in fiery sophistication, by using bulk explosives to generate the required detonative ebullience.

AFAIK, 20mm/30 mm Anti Armour Rifles have not been seen in naxal areas (yet). The naxals are patient and often can wait weeks or even months to set off a IED

In my experience, "trade off" by a dumb and disinterested designer will often come back to bite the user rather viciously in the butt

Nikhil ji, please note that this is not an invitation to debate.

Points have been made all round.

Lets move on

Is the Stryker protected against a 1.5T IED. No, right. Then what is your point. Which in service vehicle ww meets this criteria. Even tanks will flip. Forget dumb designers this is an illogical task to begin with. The vehicle will literally become a slow trap that can't move or is too complex for our troops to maintain. You've to find other ways to protect troops rather than recreate the Maus and send it down dirt roads to boot that can't even manage normal vehicles let alone a behemoth.

[Thakur_B]

Max figures for TNT equivalent blast rating I have seen for any mine protected vehicle is for 40 kg under axle and 20 kg under hull.

Mine protected vehicles have survived larger blasts but no manufacturer will guarantee it. The 1.5 ton explosive point is moot.

Look at this IED aftermath where everyone survived.
viewtopic.php?p=2275159#p2275159

India has so many manufacturers making MPVs

OFB
Kalyani
BEML
Sri Lakshmi Defence
Ashok Leyland
Tata

I am sure I am missing a few. Many of the above have been ordered in past 2 decades. Almost all source their design from South Africa, like every other MPV in the world in service.

Due to longer experience in CI, our forces have been on the MPV, Milkor and Carl Gustav bandwagon almost a decade before NATO purchased them en masse for GWOT. What we didn't have was a standardized equipment with production run in thousands.

[chetak]

Nikhil ji,


Heavy and crude IEDs are the norm in naxal areas. MRAPS can/should also be used by antinaxal forces in the interiors. Even raincoat recognized the extreme danger that these naxal forces pose to the Indian union


sadly, "trade-off" is not something to convince martyrs' families, especially in peace time and senseless casualties caused by naxals and jihadis.

It costs crores to train a young army officer (and front line troops) to get them to a position where they gell to become battle hardened, combat experienced teams, with topflight and first-rate leaders who are confident, and capable of leading such front line troops and also, at the same time, be very conscious of the safety of their troops. This is the only place where "trade-off" would actually mean something perceptible, especially when officer casualties are so high in the Indian forces because, sadly, it is the tangible price that is usually paid for that often used but never really understood trite concept of "leading from the front"

This is also multitasking, often under levels of stress completely unknown in civilian life, and hence, believe you me, "trade-off" in protective equipment, whether MRAPS or personal protection gear, would not be one of those phrases that would enthuse them

yes, after producing/purchasing the best MRAPS you can make/buy then one could make the argument of stanag standards and trade offs but never as an initial and basic design parameter. A little effort to meet some higher standards would go a long way in reassuring those in harms way

Stanag III/IV are protected against shaped charges, AP munitions and the like, filled with high powered semtex/C-4 (or better) family of explosives.

the naxals, often lacking technical superiority, usually rely on the fertilizer fuelled or dynamite filled IEDs to make up what they lack in fiery sophistication, by using bulk explosives to generate the required detonative ebullience.

AFAIK, 20mm/30 mm Anti Armour Rifles have not been seen in naxal areas (yet). The naxals are patient and often can wait weeks or even months to set off a IED

In my experience, "trade off" by a dumb and disinterested designer will often come back to bite the user rather viciously in the butt

Nikhil ji, please note that this is not an invitation to debate.

Points have been made all round.

Lets move on

Is the Stryker protected against a 1.5T IED. No, right. Then what is your point. Which in service vehicle ww meets this criteria. Even tanks will flip. Forget dumb designers this is an illogical task to begin with. The vehicle will literally become a slow trap that can't move or is too complex for our troops to maintain. You've to find other ways to protect troops rather than recreate the Maus and send it down dirt roads to boot that can't even manage normal vehicles let alone a behemoth.

Karan ji,


long time no see. Hope सब खैरियत है.....

the stryker may or may not be protected against a 1.5T IED

But in our naxal and internal security ecosystem such threats are a given and that is not only on dirt roads. No MRAP goes down such terrain limiting roads. They have a well understood off road capability and driver training is key to exploit such capabilities and still stay within the vehicles operating envelope.

The need is to improve real time surveillance, humint, and sigint, not to mention mid and higher levels of leadership. This is the domain where the 1.5T IED should actually be dealt with.

quite some time ago, on a two week trip, I accompanied a tech team of a gora company which had been invited to showcase their surveillance related equipment in two naxal infested areas. The condition under which these security forces lived and operated left me saddened beyond words. The poor guys had literally been thrown to the wolves and their armour protection (on rare occasions) was locally built tipper trucks with a "metallic" body and the gora snake oil salesmen were trying to peddle commercial grade equipment re stickered and priced as MIL grade

Areas where the naxal threat perception is high need intensive application of security resources and road clearing and sanitizing SOPs, including competent leadership at the mid and higher levels. While I waited for the goras to perform their miracles, I had a few of the security forces guys walk me through their experiences in facing off against the naxals.

personal protection gear and use of mine proof vehicles is the least one can do for them. They worked with whatever little that they had.

All ops related security forces need to be afforded the safety to perform their duties. This trade off mentality seems somehow misplaced and one does not feel comfortable when personnel in high risk security duties are placed in harms way because some bean counter or designer thought that they knew best.

Unlike pappu's miraculous "aloo dalo, sona nikalo" contraption, designers do not spontaneously manifest because someone merely passed an entrance test, it takes years before they even begin suspect that there are nuances and then many more years to appreciate the nuances. kaveri is a living example where perhaps 2-3 generations of scientists and designers joined, worked, got regularly promoted, and then retired and some of the luckier ones got rehired as "consultants". One wonders about the trade offs in many such projects that would include civil, military and research related ecosystems

[srai]

^^^

…

personal protection gear and use of mine proof vehicles is the least one can do for them. They worked with whatever little that they had.

…

No need to debate 1.5T protection vehicles when they don’t even have basics. First get them equipped in mass with existing MRV and other protective gears like BPJs.

[sajaym]

I see videos on YouTube everyday showing Ukrainian and hamas fighters using cheap drones and home made RPGs for blowing up tanks like Diwali crackers. In such a scenario, do our forces believe that our tankers won't face any such threats when dealing with the Pakistanis or the Chinese...who have much better resources than the Ukrainians & Hamas?? What is the purpose of such 'new tank concept' and 'futuristic tank concept', when it is clear that tanks are getting their asses kicked in all the new age battles?

https://idrw.org/indias-hybrid-tank-ath ... 0-prowess/

The Indian Army showcased a new tank concept named Atharva in Lucknow. This tank, developed jointly by DRDO and the Indian Army, merges the older T72 Tank hull with the more adaptable T90 turret, creating a unique and practical weapon system.

Currently, the Indian Army has over 2000 T72 Tanks, but upgrading them beyond a certain level was challenging due to limitations with the T72 turret. Atharva addresses this by combining the T90 Bhishma’s advanced turret with the durable T72 hull, creating a tank that blends the best of both models.

[Manish_P]

^ Atharva specs sheet (in a tabular format)

[mody]

The Atharva is a solution to upgrade the old T-72 tanks. We have about 2,000 T-72s in our inventory. The T72 engine will be replaced with the V92S2 1,000 HP engine, which we are now producing inhouse. The Atharva info chart above mentions the engine as the current 780HP t-72 engine only (which also by the way we produce completely in house), the upgrade to the T90 engine would make sense and would most probably happen, at least for the tanks that would be fielded in the high altitude areas. For other tanks the only reason it might not be carried out would be the additional cost.

So, it will be an indigenous engine. Most of the other parts of the T90S turret are also being made inhouse, include the barrel and now most of the electronics. Recently the ballistic computer and the fire control software of the T90 tanks have been upgraded using the solution developed as part of the Arjun program. The ERA will be indigenous as well. Most of the ammunition is now indigenously produced, except for the Gun launched Invar missiles.
This upgrade will be costlier than the earlier proposed upgrades, but will basically upgrade the old T72 to match the latest T90 tanks in Indian inventory.
This would basically increase our inventory of T90 tanks to about 3,400-3,600 tanks with most of their fire control software and electronics being indigenous and better than Russian solutions. The night fighting capability would also extend to the entire fleet, with the solution again being indigenous.

[bala]

Indian Main Battle tanks & Infantry combat vehicles to be powered by DRDO’s developed engines

Indian Defense Analysis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53h8b9K_RN0

[Pratyush]

I don't understand the Atharva upgrade.

Because, when you add the cost of revised T 90 turret, gun and the fire control systems and thermal sights. Along with complete overhaul of the existing engine, or fitting of a higher powered engine. You are looking at costs equalling a brand new tank.

The only thing remaining of the old vehicle is going to be the raw hull, wheels and tracks, if not too badly worn down.

A completely new build T 90 will not be that much more expensive.

[ernest]

I don't understand the Atharva upgrade.

Because, when you add the cost of revised T 90 turret, gun and the fire control systems and thermal sights. Along with complete overhaul of the existing engine, or fitting of a higher powered engine. You are looking at costs equalling a brand new tank.

The only thing remaining of the old vehicle is going to be the raw hull, wheels and tracks, if not too badly worn down.

A completely new build T 90 will not be that much more expensive.

This was my first reaction too. What is the life remaining in these tanks and the royalties that we need to pay Russia? Cost of another type for maintenance and logistics? Why not simplify the types we operate. There will be T-72 CIA/Atharva , T-90 Bhishma, Arjun Mk1/A, Zorawar, FMBT.

Depending on the costs, it might be wiser to use T-72 hulls modified as specialist vehicles / pillboxes / retired early. Maybe some tech from MUNTRA-T turns it into low cost armored UGV if feasible. I don't feel great putting our soldiers into older designs when better options are available.

Let's see where this project actually leads the IA

Also, the name Atharva doesn't follow well into the trend of Arjun, Bhishma.

[Tanaji]

That too with the smallest HP to weight ratio. Wonder what the ratio is for Arjun…

Anything but Arjun.

[drnayar]

(Ret) Lt. Gen Narayanan, on the Alternative Media podcast, stated that the yet-to-be-agreed-upon Stryker deal is not for the Indian Army, but to provide support for the US in the event of a conflict between US-China. MRO, etc. Just like the support that the USN has in India.

So let the US pay for it and keep it in India.. we will.need maintenance charges

[drnayar]

I don't understand the Atharva upgrade.

Because, when you add the cost of revised T 90 turret, gun and the fire control systems and thermal sights. Along with complete overhaul of the existing engine, or fitting of a higher powered engine. You are looking at costs equalling a brand new tank.

The only thing remaining of the old vehicle is going to be the raw hull, wheels and tracks, if not too badly worn down.

A completely new build T 90 will not be that much more expensive.

Let's see where this project actually leads the IA

Also, the name Atharva doesn't follow well into the trend of Arjun, Bhishma.

Is there any particular advantage of the t72 chassis over the t90 ..? That could explain the reason?

[Yagnasri]

Many decisions of the IA regarding the Tanks do not make sense to mango people. But at least in this case, they are using local products. Plus, as we are only proposing to upgrade just 1000 and not all, maybe they are using only good hulls. Anyway, some good upgrade is better than nothing.