Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[hgupta]

Can the Chinese self correct the falling population trend?

[Rakesh]

There was a competition between the EJ200 and the GE F414 turbofan, in which the latter won. I find it surprising that the EJ200 was the IAF's choice. If you could show me your source for this claim, it would be appreciated. Thank You.

'Unnamed sources' possibly Admiral ji ...

DNA - IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..

Indeed. At two different places in the article, it states this...

An IAF official, who did not want to be named,...

A defence analyst, who did not want to be named,...

Lifafa journalism at its best

[Rakesh]

In 2009, Tejas mk1 was deemed a complete failure without Kaveri and a new turbofan was needed. Tejas mk2 was sanctioned because a new turbofan means a new plane. With mk1a, the failure has been overcome. So Tejas mk2 necessity no longer exists. Now DRDO is trying to put cart before horse. Here too, instead of IAF's choice EJ200, DRDO chose F414 because it was cheaper and quite similar to F404.

This is utterly untrue and is basically a desperate attempt to spread dis-information towards building a disparaging narrative of the Mk2 program.
This is not the first time this is happening, but it seems, it's kosher to do so, given the accommodative-outlook of the mods to such worthies (and their posts).

Saar, he is trolling.

When countered with facts, then one of two things happen;

1) No response

2) The counter becomes a rant

When banned, then they complain that BRF is an echo chamber. So the best strategy is to counter with facts.

[SSridhar]

Can the Chinese self correct the falling population trend?

So darn difficult. In fact impossible. I don't want to make this a China forum but their TFR is half of the replacement TFR of 2.1 and is falling, in spite of the two-child or three-child encouragement. Also, it was not the one-child policy (which was introduced in 1979 by Deng) that led to this demographic decline. It has been steadily falling since the early 1960s.

[ashishvikas]

#LCAMk2 update

The funds have started to come finally + officially + recently, after delays. [Read again] Details soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... JWBsA&s=19

[Rakesh]

Excellent news! Waiting for details from Anantha!

[ashishvikas]

#LCAMk2 update

The funds have started to come finally + officially + recently, after delays. [Read again] Details soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... JWBsA&s=19

#LCAMk2 Update

The CCS clearance for the project [given on 31 Aug 2022] had a conditional clause that the funds can be utilized only after the ToT for F-414 engines between GE-HAL was inked.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... IUnRg&s=19

[hgupta]

#LCAMk2 Update

The CCS clearance for the project [given on 31 Aug 2022] had a conditional clause that the funds can be utilized only after the ToT for F-414 engines between GE-HAL was inked.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... IUnRg&s=19

This is such a stupid move by the Babus and politicians. We should have pushed the link for the kaveri program as to keep our domestic fighter program alive.

Now we have handed our balls to the US and they are free to do whatever they want with our balls.

[KSingh]

#LCAMk2 update

The funds have started to come finally + officially + recently, after delays. [Read again] Details soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... JWBsA&s=19

#LCAMk2 Update

The CCS clearance for the project [given on 31 Aug 2022] had a conditional clause that the funds can be utilized only after the ToT for F-414 engines between GE-HAL was inked.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... IUnRg&s=19

As always intentional sabotage or peak incompetence is impossible to discern but the end result is the same

https://x.com/ksingh_1469/status/173579 ... L0BRyMQdjg

In 2030s some form of MRFA will still exist because these clowns/sellouts today are doing everything in their power to fumble this very simple formula- fund LCA MK.2, AMCA+its engine and upgrade the SU-30s and there’s 0 need for imported fighters for the IAF ever again

I remember some rubbishing the idea that ToT for the 414 was linked to funds disbursement because that was absurd, well…..

[KSingh]

#LCAMk2 Update

The CCS clearance for the project [given on 31 Aug 2022] had a conditional clause that the funds can be utilized only after the ToT for F-414 engines between GE-HAL was inked.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... IUnRg&s=19

This is such a stupid move by the Babus and politicians. We should have pushed the link for the kaveri program as to keep our domestic fighter program alive.

Now we have handed our balls to the US and they are free to do whatever they want with our balls.

They had to de-link Kaveri from LCA after that approach had delayed the latter, flash forward 20 years and they’ve made the exact same error……

[Avik]

^^^^^^^^
This approval follows linear logic-- Tejas Mk1 induction, F404 engine agreement, F404 manufacturing in India, establishing of stable rate of manufacture for the Mk1, building up of supply chain in Tier 2 and Tier 3 levels, agreement between IAF, HAL on the configuration of the Mk1A, Operational deployment of Tejas to Nal, developing a large cadre of trainer manpower in the IAF to operate the plane.

I think this is going as per expectations. Could this be accelerated? Perhaps, by a year or so. But this is complex manufacturing where you need precedence steps to be proofed before you start placing huge orders. So, within the constraints that MoD, MoF, IAF and HAL operate in, this is happening on a relatively stable timeline. Also, all this is happening when the same MoD has to approve Prachand, LUH, Multiple Howitzer deals, Follow-on submarine deals, IAC-2, additional Frigates/Destroyers, not to mention Pinaka MBRLs, various types of Protected Mobility Vehicles etc. I am sure I have missed out many more.

These are not excuses. This is how large complex organizations function whether it is the Indian MoD or Pentagon or any European country. I do not know of any country outside the US and China, which is making such sustained large bets on domestic defence manufacturing for all three wings of the military.

So, when I read posts such as the above by characters like KSingh it disturbs me at two levels. First, this guy has a habit of generating useless drivel everywhere whether its BR or DFI. This clown goes around with multiple pseudonyms KSingh, Abingdonboy, K19XX and the only thing that stands out is the sheer vituperative nonsense that comes out from this character, like an unhinged strap-hanger hanging out of a Chennai bus hurling abuse at passers by going about their daily jobs.

Finally, such posts by Abingdongboy/KSingh are just a reflection of the sheer lack of knowledge some people display about aerospace and defence design and manufacturing. As the respected Shiv Sastry used to say, when one does not know the detailed process and intricacies, all one can do is allege malfeasance and corruption, like this joker KSingh...

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1735944521412702647?s=20 ---> Stepping in here to remind everyone that the LCA Mk2 first flight won’t be before 2027, like we reported last month. That’s an official "First Flight" target year on the program.

India To Hike Tejas Mk1A Fighter Order To 180
https://www.livefistdefence.com/india-t ... er-to-180/
30 November 2023

The more powerful Mk2, which begin drawing officially sanctioned funds last year, is deep in development, with a first flight slated for 2027. The Indian Air Force leadership has also indicated plans to operate up to 12 squadrons (over 200 aircraft) of the Mk2 variant.

[KSingh]

^^^^^^^^
This approval follows linear logic-- Tejas Mk1 induction, F404 engine agreement, F404 manufacturing in India, establishing of stable rate of manufacture for the Mk1, building up of supply chain in Tier 2 and Tier 3 levels, agreement between IAF, HAL on the configuration of the Mk1A, Operational deployment of Tejas to Nal, developing a large cadre of trainer manpower in the IAF to operate the plane.

I think this is going as per expectations. Could this be accelerated? Perhaps, by a year or so. But this is complex manufacturing where you need precedence steps to be proofed before you start placing huge orders. So, within the constraints that MoD, MoF, IAF and HAL operate in, this is happening on a relatively stable timeline. Also, all this is happening when the same MoD has to approve Prachand, LUH, Multiple Howitzer deals, Follow-on submarine deals, IAC-2, additional Frigates/Destroyers, not to mention Pinaka MBRLs, various types of Protected Mobility Vehicles etc. I am sure I have missed out many more.

These are not excuses. This is how large complex organizations function whether it is the Indian MoD or Pentagon or any European country. I do not know of any country outside the US and China, which is making such sustained large bets on domestic defence manufacturing for all three wings of the military.

So, when I read posts such as the above by characters like KSingh it disturbs me at two levels. First, this guy has a habit of generating useless drivel everywhere whether its BR or DFI. This clown goes around with multiple pseudonyms KSingh, Abingdonboy, K19XX and the only thing that stands out is the sheer vituperative nonsense that comes out from this character, like an unhinged strap-hanger hanging out of a Chennai bus hurling abuse at passers by going about their daily jobs.

Finally, such posts by Abingdongboy/KSingh are just a reflection of the sheer lack of knowledge some people display about aerospace and defence design and manufacturing. As the respected Shiv Sastry used to say, when one does not know the detailed process and intricacies, all one can do is allege malfeasance and corruption, like this joker KSingh...

Okay, leaving ad-hominem‘s to one side let’s get into it. Say it’s 2015 again and you were projecting the absolute worst case scenario for 2023-end and beyond what would it look like?

1) Su-30s still awaiting upgrades
2) LCA numbers remaining in low double digits
3) MRFA still in RFI stages
4) AMCA/NG-engine still not passed CDR stage
5) LCA MK.2 not even flying
6) MRFA/Rafale numbers not exceeding the initial 36

Of the above the only one somewhat addressed is 2) with the MK1As ordered in okay(ish) numbers albeit a bit late in the day.

Of the above which will be resolved in the next 2-4 years? Which will carry through into 2030s?

Yes defence development is a dynamic business but are we really going to pretend as though the Indian MoD’s/Govt’s output/effort is anyway optimal?

[Avik]

KSingh/Abingdonboy/Kuldeep19XX/ KhaliPaki

In the last 24-36 months, the MoD and affiliated agencies have mobilized on various programs, at different stages. These being:
LCA operational deployment
Prachand initial operational deployment
Marinized ALH orders from the Navy & CG
Design approval for the HTT
Go ahead on LCA Mk1A
Pinaka orders
Deliveries of Dhanush, albeit delayed
Induction of C 295 and ground breaking for the assembly facility
Approvals of the FS ships
Induction of Kalvaris, Kadmatt, Niligiris etc etc

There are multiple others, including various missile programs etc.

I am not aware of any other $3.5 Tn economy that has invested so much in the domestic military-industrial complex, in this time period. There are outliers like Poland and Egypt that have basically bought their way in either from S Korea or been financed by Saudi Arabia.

Now, as far as your list goes,

LCA Mk2 should logically receive approval once the design and production data for the LCA Mk1A is proofed. Are we at that stage yet?
was the Gripen E/F flying around when Gripen C/D were in IOC stages? Were F 16 Block 70 models flying around when the Block 52 was just about entering high rate production?

SU 30 modernization - we're still some way off because the indigenous avionics suite + radar upgrade needs to be finalized. The constraint here is the engine will remain the same. So, how do you activate a higher powered radar with the same engine motor output?
MRFA- lets have a conversation post the 2024 general elections

I'm happy to engage in this discussion. But this has to be two way. Why dont you enlighten us about what MoD should be doing within current constraints, instead of posting constant drivel like your post history amply demonstrates. Whether on BR or DFI or Reddit, you're a particularly vicious specimen that has nothing to contribute except slander. You are a combination of RG's kahli khopdi + MM's unhinged outbursts. So, stick to nocturnal salivation about British special forces and spare us your schizo outbursts

[hgupta]

Avik regardless of the merits of your arguments the fact remains that India fighter program remain reliant on a foreign made engine and that instead of persistently pushing and funding no matter what, we resorted to the cheapest way of trying to develop an indigenous engine using all sorts of shortcuts. There is no shortcut. We have to plow whatever it takes to get a working engine and this is a self evident truth that should have been realized 20 years ago. And now I see the MoD making the same mistakes all over again.


Now we are still dependent on a foreign made engine and that exposes India to all sorts of blackmail and undue pressure.

[Avik]

hguptaji--i agree with you. We should focus on engine development. No two ways about it. There is a reason though that there are about three decent engine makers in the world while there're numerous airframe makers. One more thing -- its very difficult to mate western engines with Russian avionics or vice versa. There is a reason the COMAC C 919 has western engines....
All this said, i agree, we should also focus on developing atleast decent power plant capability...

[hgupta]

Indian babus and military leaders should have saw that based on the experience with the Marut fighter program and how it failed because of no engines, that India should be 150% committed to the Kaveri program and produce a working engine that the LCA could use and future platforms could be based upon. But instead it was given the treatment of a half ******** child or stepchild. The gains that India would have gotten would be immeasurable and priceless. The Kaveri program is by no means perfect but it would have allowed India to chart its path independent and not be subject to blackmail or undue foreign influence and allow India to build up a robust air defense and not be outproduced by China.

[sanman]

We're flubbing it again

[LakshmanPST]

97 Tejas Mk1A order is being pushed only due to delay in Tejas Mk2... That's how I see it...
----
The previous timelines for Mk2 were
Roll-Out 2022
First Flight 2023
Production Ready 2026
Series Production delivery 2030

The above timeline coincided with last jet delivery of 83 Mk1A order, i.e. 2029...
Things looked perfectly in sync with one another...
----
Fast forward 2 years, we suddenly have news if 97 additional Tejas Mk1A jets and Tejas Mk2 timelines were shifted...

With 24 per year production rate, after including the new 97 jets order, the last Tejas Mk1A will be delivered only by 2032-33...
So, Tejas Mk2 SP jets will start coming out in atleast in 2033 only after Mk1A production ends... And that's the best case scenario...
So, the contract is to be signed by 2030, which would mean 1st flight of 2026 or 2027 only...
----
Back in 2021, in almost every HAL interview, HAL were pushing for Mk2 roll-Out date of Aug 2022... There were even reports that Production of Prototype even started...
Wonder why timelines were shifted south by 5 years...

[Aditya_V]

The way I see GE +US was pushing for F414 supply like F404IN without any serious TOT, this would have always kept Tejas production at 8-12 per year. Nationalists behind the scene were pushing for 180 Tejas MK1A with F404 import and a more detailed assembly of F414.

This way all the ancillary industries ramp up to 24 Aircraft per year production while AMCA, Tejas MK2, YEDBF ecosystem is established. While we get a better understanding F414.

[ashishvikas]

#LCAMk2 update

The funds have started to come finally + officially + recently, after delays. [Read again] Details soon.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... JWBsA&s=19

#LCAMk2 Update

The CCS clearance for the project [given on 31 Aug 2022] had a conditional clause that the funds can be utilized only after the ToT for F-414 engines between GE-HAL was inked.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... IUnRg&s=19

#LCAAFMk2 Update 3

The MoU for ToT [F414 engines] was signed between HAL & GE only in June 2023 and the CCS approved utilization of funds in July 2023. And, the fund release started for the project ONLY in September 2023.

More in 4

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... YP-pg&s=19

[hgupta]

And now we are not even sure if we will get more GE404 engines. SecState Blinken and his lackeys are an enemy of India.

The writing is on the wall. The Kaveri program must be funded and pursued to success at all costs. And IAF marshals must be taken to task for not ensuring that.

[sanman]

And now we are not even sure if we will get more GE404 engines. SecState Blinken and his lackeys are an enemy of India.

The writing is on the wall. The Kaveri program must be funded and pursued to success at all costs. And IAF marshals must be taken to task for not ensuring that.

What is the reason for this sudden switcharoo from American buckaroos?

At any rate, if they do switcharoos against us, then we need to reply in kind and do some of our own back on them.

Their sudden new gamesmanship must incur a price.

[hgupta]

is there a way that we can shoehorn RD-33MK engine into Tejas Mk2 if we have to as a backup option? We got the license production rights.

[JTull]

is there a way that we can shoehorn RD-33MK engine into Tejas Mk2 if we have to as a backup option? We got the license production rights.

Great way to reduce availability rates, and restart the import cycle!

[hgupta]

is there a way that we can shoehorn RD-33MK engine into Tejas Mk2 if we have to as a backup option? We got the license production rights.

Great way to reduce availability rates, and restart the import cycle!

DId you not read the above quote? I said we got the license production rights to RD-33 engine and it is only for a back up measure. What else do you propose as a plan b in case the kaveri engine is not up and running yet and US is playing perfidy? Import more fighters? Yeah that is a great solution to try to avoid importing more fighters! Genius!

[ramana]

Folks there was a graphic that showed the evolution of Mk2 in weight and size until the CDR. Caan someone post it?

[KSingh]

Again let’s try and avoid direct personal attacks

KSingh/Abingdonboy/Kuldeep19XX/ KhaliPaki

In the last 24-36 months, the MoD and affiliated agencies have mobilized on various programs, at different stages. These being:
LCA operational deployment
Prachand initial operational deployment
Marinized ALH orders from the Navy & CG
Design approval for the HTT
Go ahead on LCA Mk1A
Pinaka orders
Deliveries of Dhanush, albeit delayed
Induction of C 295 and ground breaking for the assembly facility
Approvals of the FS ships
Induction of Kalvaris, Kadmatt, Niligiris etc etc

There are multiple others, including various missile programs etc.

Okay? I’m not sure how that prevents the esteemed leadership treating fighters as a strategic priority or sabotaging their own domestic efforts intentionally

I am not aware of any other $3.5 Tn economy that has invested so much in the domestic military-industrial complex, in this time period. There are outliers like Poland and Egypt that have basically bought their way in either from S Korea or been financed by Saudi Arabia.

S.Korea is almost entirely self reliant and has a far smaller economy than India’s because they have taken a long view and not improved left and right.

Now, as far as your list goes,

LCA Mk2 should logically receive approval once the design and production data for the LCA Mk1A is proofed. Are we at that stage yet?
was the Gripen E/F flying around when Gripen C/D were in IOC stages? Were F 16 Block 70 models flying around when the Block 52 was just about entering high rate production?

This isn’t the point I am making. As we have now had it confirmed the GoI/MoD held a clause in their funding for the MK.2 that linked it to securing ToT (whatever that really means) for the F414 engine, at the very least this has stalled the project by years and imposed an external conditionality on the entire project- what was the motivation of such a condition? At the very best this is failing to learn from recent history- linking Kaveri and LCA was what had caused delays to the latter previously and they’ve done the exact same thing for the MK.2.

To ignore this and start talking about the Gripen is only obfuscation

I'm happy to engage in this discussion. But this has to be two way. Why dont you enlighten us about what MoD should be doing within current constraints,

As I said above- the solution to the IAF’s fighter mess is pretty clear and it can be done without importing a single fighter more.

Even now AMCA and it’s engine are not even sanctioned hence all the current woes of the IAF are guaranteed to carry forward into the 2030s and 2040s.

Incompetence or self sabotage is almost immaterial- the results are the same. It’s 2024 almost and the IAF has barely changed from where it was in the mid 2000s, we are still having to listen about MMRCA and future projects like AMCA, aside from the LCA MK1/A this govt has done very little for the overall health of the IAF’s fighter stream in the last decade or so, lots of talk though.

[Rakesh]

is there a way that we can shoehorn RD-33MK engine into Tejas Mk2 if we have to as a backup option? We got the license production rights.

Turbofan has to fit inside the engine bay of the Tejas Mk2. If it does not fit, it would be pointless.

RD-33: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_RD-33

F414: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

[Rakesh]

Okay, so let us get this straight...

* CCS clearance for the Tejas Mk2 was given on 31 Aug 2022.
* MoU for the F414 - between GE and HAL - was signed in June 2023.
* CCS approved utilization of funds in July 2023 and funds were released in September 2023.

This is what Anantha has said in his three tweets to date ---> viewtopic.php?p=2609687#p2609687

If anybody finds the above unacceptable, please see the following;

• ₹48,000 Crore contract for 73 Tejas Mk1A-FOC fighters and 10 Mk1-FOC trainers was signed at Aero India '21 in Bengaluru on 03 Feb 2021.
URL, 03 Feb 2021

• US $716 Million Contract for 99 F404-IN20 turbofans and support services was signed in August 2021.
URL, 19 Aug 2021

So it took 6+ months - after the contract signing of the Tejas Mk1A - to sign the deal for 99 F404 turbofans. Now taking a look at the Tejas Mk2, it took approximately 13 months for the project to finally get going i.e. release of funds. And this was done because the F414 required clearance from the US Congress. If there was no F414 coming (no clearance from US Congress), on what basis should the development of the Tejas Mk2 continue? The only other turbofan that we know of is the EJ200, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon. Which other alternative turbofan is there?

When the contract for the second batch (97 airframes) of Tejas Mk1As is signed, it will likely take a similar length of time before another contract is signed with GE for the supply of additional F404 turbofans for the second batch of Tejas Mk1As.

Stop taking takleef over the delays of the Tejas Mk2. Everything is delayed - the world over - in military projects. India is no different. The Tejas Mk2 will come. It will be late, but it will come and it will wear the IAF roundel. 4++ generation fighters are here to stay and will continue to remain viable in the decades ahead. Even the USAF is still inducting brand new 4++ generation fighters i.e. F-15EX and F-16 Block 70/72, to complement the F-22, F-35 and the upcoming NGAD platform. Stealth fighters are not cheap to purchase, operate or maintain and nobody understands that better than the USAF.

Taking takleef only gives the import pasand crowd on BRF satisfaction. Your frustration is feeding your fears. At this rate, I wonder what will happen to some of you when the MRFA is announced!

[KSingh]

is there a way that we can shoehorn RD-33MK engine into Tejas Mk2 if we have to as a backup option? We got the license production rights.

Turbofan has to fit inside the engine bay of the Tejas Mk2. If it does not fit, it would be pointless.

RD-33: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_RD-33

F414: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

There’s a reason Russia doesn’t have single engine fighters of their own in recent times- their engines are far too unreliable for that

On the AL-31 in particular the IAF’s own experience with it is pretty patchy- the MTBF is very low compared to any of its in service (western) engines and they have had specific issues with single engine flameouts, only thanks to being twin engined has this not led to a lot of SU-30 losses. A similar issue has hit the MIG-29K fleet

[hgupta]

is there a way that we can shoehorn RD-33MK engine into Tejas Mk2 if we have to as a backup option? We got the license production rights.

Turbofan has to fit inside the engine bay of the Tejas Mk2. If it does not fit, it would be pointless.

RD-33: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_RD-33

F414: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414

Then this is our “no matter what we must succeed” moment for the fighter program and the Kaveri program. The Kaveri engine program has to succeed at all costs.

[Pratyush]

KSingh, the reason why the Russians got rid of the single engine fighters after 91 was primarily economic and fleet sustainability during the strained economy of the times.

Not reliability of engines.


They regretted that decision as early as the first Chechen war.

[putnanja]

We need our own engine, no doubt. Whether Kaveri which was initially targeted at F404 specs can scale up to F414 is a suspect, given that it is yet to even match F404 specs for LCA Mk1/1A.

Unfortunately there is no other competitor. M88 engine which is same as in Rafale would have been good if it was uprated to match F414 specs. In fact, India evaluated both M88 and GE404 for LCA initially but went with GE.

I hope for AMCA, Kaveri will be ready . If not, would be good to go with M88s if possible, providing commonality with Rafale. Otherwise a big percentage of aircraft will have US engines, which can still use sanctions as a weapon.

[maitya]

Okay, so let us get this straight...
...
...
<snip>
So it took 6+ months - after the contract signing of the Tejas Mk1A - to sign the deal for 99 F404 turbofans. Now taking a look at the Tejas Mk2, it took approximately 13 months for the project to finally get going i.e. release of funds. And this was done because the F414 required clearance from the US Congress. If there was no F414 coming (no clearance from US Congress), on what basis should the development of the Tejas Mk2 continue? The only other turbofan that we know of is the EJ200, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon. Which other alternative turbofan is there?
<snip>
...
...

Ummm Nah ... non sequitur argument.
I actually see a desperate attempt by the import-pasand shills here, to paper-over/manufacture-some-argument towards, another desperate attempt by the import-pasand decision-makers (so what’s new? ), to some-how stymie/delay/throttle-back the Mk2 D&D activities (not by you though), so that imported MRFA acquisition program can be strengthened - I'd rather say, keep it relevant.

Funny part ofcourse is, while doing so, the argument that these self-appointed import-pasand-shills, continue to peddle towards it.
I may not agree with KSingh's argument/logic but the counter was/is completely childish (e.g. Gripen E/F, Block 72 programs - yeah right!!! - such stuff doesn't deserve a counter actually).
(Plus, there were ad-hominem attacks, but that's for admins/MODs to look into, not me – they are afterall the custodians of maintain the quality of discussions etc.)
Betw, pardon my ignorance pls, but wth is this DFI, another forum like BRF, is it? )

Anyway, back to your point Rakeshji - Mk2 D&D and then certification/qualification has no relevance wrt the F414 ToAsT deal etc.
Like all over the world, here also, this part of the program should have got completed by fully-imported powerplant (F414) - and may be a first set of SP platforms should as well be by imported engines.
So, roll-out followed by flight testing and certification to be done by a fully-imported powerplant, F414.
(ironically, the e.g pf Gripen E/F program furthered above, is actually a good example of this)

And F414 platforms have already been imported long back anyway - no US congress clearance is required for it.
(very similar to importing of F404 base versions for the Mk1 TD and PV (maybe the LSPs as well, not sure)) :roll

Of course, I can completely understand if somebody is trying to argue that show us the productionising maturity aspects of the MK1 before any talk of productionising the Mk2 etc - but why throttle the D&D, testing and certification with such a condition (aka first secure approval of F414 ToaST (some call it “indigenous manufacturing of TF”) before I’ll release fund for D&D/Testing/Certification etc).
(betw what is this productionising maturity of Mk1 - which part of Mk1 productionising was not mature after the LSP stage - pls, atleast you don't try to counter this, by bringing in the 83 platform deal etc - which itself took a decade to "negotiate", betw , essentially two different arms of the govt)

So summary is by asking to first get the F414 ToAsT deal completed before releasing funds for D&D (plus testing and certification) phase is just that - a desperate attempt to demonstrate the relevance of the imported-MRFA program itself.

Betw I'm not even sure, how the very-successful-killing-of-indigenous-TF-R&D between 2010-2020 (teh lost decade), by the same import-pasand cabal, got anything to do with this?
After all, don't we all know, there'll be imported-only TFs for all our military programs for next couple of decades atleast, if not more
(of course, discounting sloganeering-cum-labelling attempts like the F414-ToAst Programs as “F414 manufacturing" etc.)

[KSingh]

We need our own engine, no doubt. Whether Kaveri which was initially targeted at F404 specs can scale up to F414 is a suspect, given that it is yet to even match F404 specs for LCA Mk1/1A.

Unfortunately there is no other competitor. M88 engine which is same as in Rafale would have been good if it was uprated to match F414 specs. In fact, India evaluated both M88 and GE404 for LCA initially but went with GE.

I hope for AMCA, Kaveri will be ready . If not, would be good to go with M88s if possible, providing commonality with Rafale. Otherwise a big percentage of aircraft will have US engines, which can still use sanctions as a weapon.

The Kaveri isn’t powerful enough for the AMCA, not even close.

Of course get Kaveri right and you can build from there but alas this is sold as unobtainable by the powers that be. Fixing Kaveri should’ve featured as one of the top priorities for any atmannir Bharat govt. yes it’s cutting edge tech that requires huge outlay and development times but has anyone even gone through the motions? Does India even have a single engine test bed? They always gave a shoestring budget and when that yielded less than desired results they wrote off the effort entirely

When the time comes billions of USD rain out of the sky for imports but this one project always seems on the edge of collapse? Even from a ROI perspective the treatment is ridiculous. 1000++ turbofan engines over the next 2-3 decades at 4-6 million USD each vs maybe $2 billion spent on Kaveri to date since the 1980s?

Sure I’m just an angry man whistling in the wind but again ask yourselves is this sabotage or sheer incompetence


Add to that whatever genius thought to link development fund disbursement for a fighter project to a foreign country signing off engine ‘TOT’, how anyone can defend this is beyond me. No wonder IDDM is basically non existent on a strategic scale

[hgupta]

Has anybody from the Kaveri program ever try to get to Modi and explain what needs to be done in order to keep India independent and strong?

[ashishvikas]

#LCAMk2 Update

The CCS clearance for the project [given on 31 Aug 2022] had a conditional clause that the funds can be utilized only after the ToT for F-414 engines between GE-HAL was inked.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... IUnRg&s=19

#LCAAFMk2 Update 3

The MoU for ToT [F414 engines] was signed between HAL & GE only in June 2023 and the CCS approved utilization of funds in July 2023. And, the fund release started for the project ONLY in September 2023.

More in 4

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... YP-pg&s=19

#LCAAFMk2 Update

There are 9500 part drawings for aircraft structure out of which 8500+ drawings have already been released for parts manufacturing.

More in 5

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/17 ... O_LIg&s=19

[ramana]

The TOT clause was to give GE incentive to get Congress approval.
It's not like GE is selling F414 like vada pav all over the world.

That's done.
No need for r/d.

Yes SD is making things difficult and is to be expected seeing geopolitics.
This too shall pass soon.

[hgupta]

The TOT clause was to give GE incentive to get Congress approval.
It's not like GE is selling F414 like vada pav all over the world.

That's done.
No need for r/d.

Yes SD is making things difficult and is to be expected seeing geopolitics.
This too shall pass soon.

As that it may be but it is never a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket, especially that is renown for its unreliability and perfidy. Not to mention that we are facing a serious situation vis a vis with China in terms of airpower and air superiority. We are already facing a serious deficiency and it would only exacerbate over time unless we can remedy the engine program and resolve it on reliability and certainty.