Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 15 Jun 2023 17:26

Posting for records....

Lokesh Machines zooms 20% on getting initial license for making small arms

“Intimation has been received from the Ministry of Home Affairs, New Delhi, stating that the Initial License (Form VIJ) for Manufacturing of Small Arms has been granted to Lokesh Machines, subject to payment of applicable fees,” Lokesh Machines said in an exchange filing.
However, the company said it has not yet received a copy of the afore-said license. Upon receiving the license, we will promptly inform the exchange, the company said.

Read Full News Article from Here//
https://www.business-standard.com/marke ... 392_1.html

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 15 Jun 2023 17:27

Mollick.R wrote:Posting for records....

Lokesh Machines zooms 20% on getting initial license for making small arms

“Intimation has been received from the Ministry of Home Affairs, New Delhi, stating that the Initial License (Form VIJ) for Manufacturing of Small Arms has been granted to Lokesh Machines, subject to payment of applicable fees,” Lokesh Machines said in an exchange filing.
However, the company said it has not yet received a copy of the afore-said license.

They received a licence only, not any confirmed order , still market going gaga....
May be market knows something more or its just pure hot air/ satta that the stock moved up 20%.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 15 Jun 2023 18:55

Indigenously developed Ishapore Assault Rifle (IAR) 7.62x51mm delivered to CRPF.

Developed by Rifle Factory Ishapore, the rifle has passed the trials and more orders from paramilitary & police forces are expected.

srin · Post by **srin** » 15 Jun 2023 20:14

CRPF seems to be going for 7.62x51 while the Army seems to be buying AK203, which is 7.62x39.

I don't know - it all seems reversed. What is the usecase for CRPF to go for such a powerful round ?

Nothing to take the achievement away - I'm glad that CRPF is going for a desi gun instead of going the army way of Sig Sauer.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Jun 2023 00:23

Pratyush wrote:Nachiket,

The US military has selected the 6.8. You are free to call it SPC or Fury.

Pratyush the two cartridges are nothing alike. Its like comparing 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 and saying they are the same because the bullet diameter is the same. Even Fury is the wrong name for it because that is the civilian version. There is a big difference between the civilian and military versions of this as well. Please check it out. It is far more similar to 7.62x51 mm ballistically (and in size) than to the SPC.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Jun 2023 15:48

6.8 SPC (6.8x43) and 6.8x51 (0.277 fury) are completely different rounds. 6.8 SPC is closer to 7.62x39.

Anyhow, 6.8x51 round was chosen to defeat Level IV body armour. The round is quite overpowered, packing 20% more pressure than 7.62x51.

Fn Herstal presented a far more reasonable solution with Individual Weapon System in a steel cased 6.5x43 round derived from 6.5 grendel but with higher velocity that can do the same job without being overkill.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 17 Jun 2023 18:26

1st consignment of TAR (Trichy Assault Rifle) 7.62X39 MM delivered to CISF.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 17 Jun 2023 19:38

Thakur_B wrote:6.8 SPC (6.8x43) and 6.8x51 (0.277 fury) are completely different rounds. 6.8 SPC is closer to 7.62x39.

Anyhow, 6.8x51 round was chosen to defeat Level IV body armour. The round is quite overpowered, packing 20% more pressure than 7.62x51.

Fn Herstal presented a far more reasonable solution with Individual Weapon System in a steel cased 6.5x43 round derived from 6.5 grendel but with higher velocity that can do the same job without being overkill.

Thakur sa'ab, what are your thoughts about the chinese 5.8 mm. They have used it for some time now.
IIRC they tried developing the 6.8 mm a few decades ago but cancelled it and opted for the 5.8 mm

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Jun 2023 19:36

The Chinese 5.8 cartridge is slightly better than 5.56 at long ranges out of LMG. Similarly Russian 5.45 is better than 5.56 in fragmentation and tumbling. But the difference are not ground breaking.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Jun 2023 20:13

Thakur_B wrote:The Chinese 5.8 cartridge is slightly better than 5.56 at long ranges out of LMG. Similarly Russian 5.45 is better than 5.56 in fragmentation and tumbling. But the difference are not ground breaking.

Thanks. I think they have standardized on them with variations for the assault and LMG configurations.

I guess they are content with them but then again they have not had to use them in battle

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Jun 2023 20:10

The ammunition calibre issue is in my opinion overblown. IA would be reverting to an intermediate calibre in a decade to replace 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 once it wraps it's head around the logistics nightmare it has got into.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Aug 2023 17:12

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/169 ... 39456?s=20 ---> IIT-Delhi develops new Bullet Proof Jackets, can defeat AK rounds. The new vests are BIS level 5 and BIS Level 6 compliant. IIT-Delhi claims that it's capable of defeating 8×AK-47 Hard Steel Core & 6×Sniper API rounds. It's also significantly lighter weighing just 8.2 kg.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 17 Aug 2023 08:54

No orders have been placed beyond the initial orders for MKU helmets and SMPP jackets 4 years back. What a criminal waste of national resources while the requirements are screaming in the face.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Aug 2023 09:45

Emergency procurement is always for shiney new imports.

Never for bread and butter items.

R Charan · Post by **R Charan** » 12 Sep 2023 10:25

Indian Army to Receive Advanced Bulletproof Jackets and Helmets

https://www.defencenews.in/2023/09/indi ... d-helmets/

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Sep 2023 23:01

Thakur_B wrote: ↑17 Aug 2023 08:54 No orders have been placed .... What a criminal waste of national resources while the requirements are screaming in the face.

Unfortunately you could post this part in just about any thread in the Mil Forum and be equally right.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Sep 2023 00:53

Its easy to be negative when we don't have info. And when it's stated there is disbelief.
For instance, the info about 14K Brahmos that was revealed by China was pooh-poohed and debunked loudly.
The proof is in the opponent's behavior: post-Abhinandan capture, post-Galwan, Post accidental firing of Brahmos.
There was not even a murmur.
US would have scream nooklear flashpoint.
Or see the news about ATAGS to Armenia. They are getting 84 guns of which six were shipped.
Pinaka was already shipped.

My point is GOI does not have to release info to satisfy fan club.
It has to secure the country and they are doing it despite many hurdles without causing heartburn.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Sep 2023 22:57

ramana, orders for basic equipment (or even heavy vehicles/artillery) will be in public domain. We are not talking about strategic forces here.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Sep 2023 20:06

ARDE UBGL on SiG716i.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Sep 2023 21:23

Wow, a first for Indian pvt company as per PTI report on Twitter

Indian Army to get Made-in-India sniper rifles developed by Bengaluru-based SSS Defence.

Photos from https://twitter.com/VivekSi85847001/sta ... 4958648455

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Sep 2023 06:56

putnanja wrote: ↑21 Sep 2023 21:23 Wow, a first for Indian pvt company as per PTI report on Twitter

Indian Army to get Made-in-India sniper rifles developed by Bengaluru-based SSS Defence.

Photos from https://twitter.com/VivekSi85847001/sta ... 4958648455

Don't be wowed. The CEO of SSS Defence has said this is fake news.

https://twitter.com/Viv_Krishnan/status ... 22865226#m

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Sep 2023 12:26

Btw folks, what happened to the procurement of 7.62x51 automatic rifle after the limited buy of Sig 716 ?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Sep 2023 20:06

srin wrote: ↑25 Sep 2023 12:26 Btw folks, what happened to the procurement of 7.62x51 automatic rifle after the limited buy of Sig 716 ?

Probably at brochure evaluation stage.
Followed by GQSR
Followed by AoN.
Followed by RFI.
Followed by DAC approval.
Followed by RFP.
Followed by Moon / Mars trials.
Followed by RFP cancellation.
Followed by second RFP.
Followed by Neptune trials.
Followed by Shortlisting of bids.
Followed by negotiations.
Followed by DAC approval for Budget.
Followed by Ministry approval for award of contract.
Followed by some vigilance complaint.
Followed by blacklisting of supplier.
Followed by emergency procurement.
Followed by change of requirements.
Rinse and repeat.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Oct 2023 08:28

CRPF has outdone Indian Army with better gear and standardisation consistently for the last few years. Here is an example of their QAT in valley with better plate carriers, Arsenal rifles and helmets with ceramic applique protection.

Here is the new CRPF standard camouflage

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 14 Oct 2023 09:18

^^^ i like the boots

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 14 Oct 2023 09:27

IAF also have nice boots. hope IA follows soon

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8Jv_WbXkAE ... name=large

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2023 14:06

Atmavik wrote: ↑14 Oct 2023 09:18 ^^^ i like the boots

The boots are basic Liberty canvas combat boots. They are not special, cost less than ₹750 a pair.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 07 Nov 2023 08:55

What Indian security forces are doing to meet the need for more assault rifles
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today- ... ce=twshare

With the joint plan with Russia to produce the AK 203 being delayed, the Indian military is extensively upgrading the indigenous INSAS, instead of going in for expensive imports, to fill up the infantry’s need for 200,000 assault rifles

In addition, the recently acquired US-made assault rifles have also reported several ‘glitches’ during use in counter-insurgency operations along with the Line of Control in Kashmir and in the Northeast

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 Nov 2023 09:38

Bharadwaj wrote: ↑07 Nov 2023 08:55 What Indian security forces are doing to meet the need for more assault rifles
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... ce=twshare
With the joint plan with Russia to produce the AK 203 being delayed, the Indian military is extensively upgrading the indigenous INSAS, instead of going in for expensive imports, to fill up the infantry’s need for 200,000 assault rifles

In addition, the recently acquired US-made assault rifles have also reported several ‘glitches’ during use in counter-insurgency operations along with the Line of Control in Kashmir and in the Northeast

A veteran Col. has commented on X on this development saying it won't work as the forces do not have confidence in the INSAS. A person (possibly one who also posts on BRF) has replied pointing out the issues the Americans had with the M16 during Vietnam, the issues they had with the V22 Osprey, etc etc.

bala · Post by **bala** » 07 Nov 2023 22:20

There are operational glitches in Sig-716 and Russian AK 203 manufacture is experiencing delays. Russia has already supplied 70,000 AK203 by March 2023 to India. Indian Military planners are discussing upgrade of the 10 lakh INSAS rifles in the field. Hand guard, mounting of optical sighting, rails/grips/bipods are some of the upgrade. Some Indian companies have already provided upgrades. The cost would be around 45% the cost of a Sig-716.

Indian Defence Updates report:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsCNd2Bwrbk

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 08 Nov 2023 06:50

I was skeptical about the Sig purchase. They rushed it through in a few months under the fast-track program, buying a rifle that, to my knowledge, no major army has purchased. OTOH the army subjected the INSAS Mk1C to rigorous tests over more than a year, and then rejected it. The Ishapore and Trichy rifles of 7.62mm caliber were also dismissed from consideration after prefunctory tests.

The Sig purchase was justified mainly on price. I don't think they conducted any tests in high-altitude or desert environments.

If they had to buy foreign, they should have purchased the Galil 7.62, which is supposedly far more rugged. Punj Lloyd already had a collaboration with the Israeli company, and a running factory in India, where they could have quickly produced and delivered the rifles. The IA rejected it on cost grounds, but now they will end up spending more to fix the problems with the Sig.

As for the AK-203, with Russian collaborator and OFB manufacturer in a new factory, delays were a given. Besides, I have not heard of any rigorous tests being conducted on it by the IA in Indian conditions. They probably just accepted the Russian manufacturer's test reports. It is not the Russian Army standard rifle either.

Now it seems to me that the acquisition process is screwed up, whether under standard or fast-track routes. Most of the times, the defence forces end up getting substandard products on a delayed schedule.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2023 07:38

Given the human resource base of the army and available within the erstwhile OFB along with the pvt sector companies.

Would it not be better to design a small arms system designed for Indian requirements from the scratch.

The system can have seperate rifles designed for different ammunition as a part of the program.

Have separate competing designs family. Covering the spectrum of use.

Select the best of the bunch.

srin · Post by **srin** » 08 Nov 2023 10:35

Regarding the Sig purchase, they went with a DI version, which was probably the result of needing to control a 7.62x51 rifle in full auto mode. If they found it unsuitable (including the obvious fouling up problem), begs the question what trials they did.

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 08 Nov 2023 22:42

srin wrote: ↑08 Nov 2023 10:35 Regarding the Sig purchase, they went with a DI version, which was probably the result of needing to control a 7.62x51 rifle in full auto mode. If they found it unsuitable (including the obvious fouling up problem), begs the question what trials they did.

I believe Indian army went with SiG 716 G2, which is a short stroke piston design
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... uer-716-g2 - news item that specifies the version IA bought
https://www.gungenius.com/firearms/rifl ... -xmytvqsg/ - 716 G2 specs

The more common SiG 716i is the direct impingement version.
https://www.sigsauer.com/sig716-tread.html - civilian version of Gas Impingement 716i

based on my reading of past IA requirements, they'll never consider a DI assault rifle for extensive use, only for niche cases like M4 for some commando units.

bala · Post by **bala** » 10 Nov 2023 09:28

Close Quarter Carbines (CQB) have been procured by National Security Group (NSG) which opted for DRDO's 5.56x45 mm CQB made by Kalyani Group. A small number were ordered. However the Indian army, navy etc are yet to decide. The Army can take another 2 yrs for the decision.
Indian defence Analysis ..

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Nov 2023 20:20

It's a trial order. NSG tests a variety of weapons constantly.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 14 Nov 2023 22:28

First batch of AK-203 rifles undergoes tests in India- TASS

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 13 Dec 2023 01:10

Defence Ministry Clears Army's Case For 73,000 More Sig 716 Assault Rifles From US.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 Dec 2023 07:01

Rupesh wrote: ↑13 Dec 2023 01:10 Defence Ministry Clears Army's Case For 73,000 More Sig 716 Assault Rifles From US.

Defence ministry approves purchase of 70,000 Sig Sauer assault rifles for Army

In a major effort to bolster the capabilities of soldiers stationed along the borders with China and Pakistan, India is set to acquire an additional 70,000 Sig Sauer assault rifles from the United States.

The decision to buy these assault rifles was taken at a recent Defence Acquisition Council meeting, government officials informed India Today. This will mark a significant stride in enhancing the capabilities of the troops to combat terrorism and execute major operations in Jammu and Kashmir.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 13 Dec 2023 07:21

Interesting. There were reports of glitches in the Sig rifles purchased earlier. Now they are going for another batch of 70k. Looks like the glitches were not major