Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Our defense reporters are really something else..

From TOIlet - Defence ministry clears Army's case for 73,000 more assault rifles
Dismissing reports of glitches in the US-origin guns, the Army contends the SiG-716 rifles, which are 7.62x51 mm calibre guns with an effective “kill” range of 500-metre have “longer effective range, more lethality and higher recoil:lol:
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by hgupta »

putnanja wrote: 13 Dec 2023 07:21 Interesting. There were reports of glitches in the Sig rifles purchased earlier. Now they are going for another batch of 70k. Looks like the glitches were not major
It had to do with the unsuitability of the Indian produced ammo for the guns. Now that has been sorted out and IA felt more confident in ordering more Sig-716 rifles.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by AkshaySG »

Honestly the "cost related" concerns when buying a major assault rifle platform for the whole army make me groan.

You are talking about the most important, the most used, the most necessary piece of equipment for the entire defense forces, Something which will be the tip of our spear for decades to come and then have to compromise over amounts that are miniscule in comparison to other items

The price difference in what they agreed on w Sig and the best, highly customized and most proven assault rifle it would probably be less than the cost of one of those Apaches they so easily ordered.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Bharadwaj wrote: 13 Dec 2023 12:55 https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1730456201203532189

Ak-203 in BSF service?
Arsenal (Bulgarian) AKMs.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Bharadwaj »

Thanks Thakurji.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

AkshaySG wrote: 13 Dec 2023 18:53 ..
The price difference in what they agreed on w Sig and the best, highly customized and most proven assault rifle it would probably be less than the cost of one of those Apaches they so easily ordered.
Quite depressing.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1735236491960619078?s=20 ---> Unpopular view: India should scrap the delayed AK-203 Kalashnikov factory in U.P, cancel import orders for U.S. Sig Sauer rifles, & speed up development & purchase of homegrown assault rifles. Stop benefiting foreign economies where Indian options exist.

FIRST LOOK: Indian Private Sector Answer To Kalashnikov Rifle Out Soon
https://www.livefistdefence.com/first-l ... -out-soon/
18 August 2020
Rakesh
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India’s Glock connection dates back to the 1980s
https://www.news9live.com/world/indias- ... 0s-2391379
01 Jan 2024
It was among the world’s first nations to get Gaston Glock's iconic handgun.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

DRDO has unveiled a new prototype of 7.62x51 assault rifle. The rifle has been named Ugram by DRDO and has been manufactured by Dvipa Armour Ltd. of Hyderabad.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/dr ... 847cf&ei=9

"The first operational prototype of the rifle, which has been named Ugram, which means ferocious, was unveiled at the hands of Dr Shailendra V Gade, Director General, Armament and Combat Engineering Systems of the DRDO on Monday in Pune.

The rifle has an effective range of 500 metres and weighs less than four kilograms and has been developed by DRDO's Pune-based facility Armament Research and Development Establishments (ARDE) in collaboration with Hyderabad-based Dvipa Armour India Private Limited.

ARDE scientists, who have worked on the project, said the rifle was designed based on the General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQRs) of the Indian Army.

The rifle has a 20 round magazine and fires in both single and full auto mode. The configuration of the rifle is comparable to the latest AK and AR type rifles and it has a rivet-free design, making it robust."

"The unveiling of this specific type of assault rifle of 7.62 x 51 mm calibre comes at a time when the Defence Acquisition Council had in December given a nod for procurement of 70,000 US-made SIG Sauer assault rifle of the same calibre for the Indian armed forces for over Rs 800 crore in addition to over 72,000 procured early in 2020.

DRDO's Ugram will have to go through several internal tests, acceptance trials and user trials before it can be considered for induction.
Speaking about the Ugram assault rifle, ARDE Director Ankathi Raju said, "This was a mission mode project taken up two years ago. After the ARDE designed the rifle, we started looking for a private industry partner for development and manufacturing. Simultaneously, we started working on its hardware through our sources. We have followed the concept of Development cum Production Partner, DcPP for the speedy progress of the project. Under this, the vendor is associated with us during the design and production too. After the product is made by the vendor, it will undergo the acceptance trials. We placed the order for the assault rifleto the Hyderabad-based Dvipa Armour. The rifle will soon go for trials.”

G Ram Chaitanya Reddy, Director of the Dvipa Armour India, said, “There is a major shortfall of assault rifles in India. The AK-203 project has not taken off because of the Russia Ukraine war and PLR is supplying weapons to the Israel Weapon Industries because of the Israel-Hamas conflict. So this window of opportunity has come up. Three months ago, in October 2023, we received the order. And we have successfully given five prototypes. We believe this is the fastest development of a weapon anywhere in the world. After the development of the prototype and their trials, we will go for more tests for which we will give 15 more units to the ARDE. Subsequently, the process of further clearances will begin."
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

^^^
A bit late no Sir
Just missed the bus for Aditya!!! :D
They could have sent it for the ultimate testing No!!!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Samay »

FN SCAR , was such a simple solution. Belgians may have shared tech.
Already ordered for PARAs ?
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Reg Ugram, some basic fixes are required

Hand guard is shabby and needs to be full length milled aluminium with Mlok slots. That handguard will not hold zero in long run.

Front post sight needs to be on handguard like the rear sight.

Why not use the standard SR 25 magazine like the SiG 716? Why reinvent the wheel and add one more inventory item.

Controls and ergonomics need to be like SiG716. Which means bolt hold open, magazine release and fire selector.

Adjustable gas block is required for suprressor attachment.

Apparently SSS and Jindal bid higher. Plr didn't even bid and Kalyani didn't qualify.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

It is comical to see India's struggle to build a simple assault rifle, after sending a rover to the moon and designing and flying an indigenous top-class fighter jet. The struggle will continue till government-run companies continue to have a monopoly on designing rifles
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Samay »

sanjayc wrote: 10 Jan 2024 09:17 It is comical to see India's struggle to build a simple assault rifle, after sending a rover to the moon and designing and flying an indigenous top-class fighter jet. The struggle will continue till government-run companies continue to have a monopoly on designing rifles
And what is ISRO ?
It is not a question of monopoly, never was.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Bharadwaj »

Thakur_B wrote: 10 Jan 2024 09:12 Reg Ugram, some basic fixes are required

Hand guard is shabby and needs to be full length milled aluminium with Mlok slots. That handguard will not hold zero in long run.

Front post sight needs to be on handguard like the rear sight.

Why not use the standard SR 25 magazine like the SiG 716? Why reinvent the wheel and add one more inventory item.

Controls and ergonomics need to be like SiG716. Which means bolt hold open, magazine release and fire selector.

Adjustable gas block is required for suprressor attachment.

Apparently SSS and Jindal bid higher. Plr didn't even bid and Kalyani didn't qualify.
Thakur B Some video going around youtube quoting aweil showing their new 7.62 51. They are also talking of a rfp for 800000 rifles? :eek: . A bit confused here since I was under the impression the ak deal was very much on track if a bit delayed due to the Ukraine war?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

SSS people have all kinds of small arms. SSS fellows made all. Why, then, do we need Urgam or some other entity?

There are also some more Western-designed rifles now being made in Bharat. So why do we need to spend money on something that is clearly going to be made at some Ex OFB entity with s**t quality control?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

We need a national rifle project -- invite top private manufacturers like Kalyani, Tatas, etc. and ask them to submit a design. The only condition being the IP has to fully reside with the Indian entity. They will hire gun design consultants from all over the world and design a world-class rifle in two months. Let them submit a prototype. The army tests the prototypes and production contract is handed over to the winner. I mean, how hard can this be (we have the ATAGS development template already)? But we again see potbellied managers from OFB (with 100% job security and union backing) producing some shit crude rifle and showcasing it to the army (who is not given any other option than either OFB or go straight for imports).
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Sanjay, Your post presupposes that there is problem with the basic INSAS design and not quality control issue with mass production of the design.

If the design had defects, it would not have cleared for production by the army to begin with.

The QC issues would have been overcome by now with over 25 years of production because of process improvements.

Therefore, i would submit that the INSAS is not the problem.

The Army has other requirements, that are not met by INSAS.

Why the 7.62* 51 version of INSAS was insufficient is a question that has to be answered.

Second issue at hand is the calibre confusion within the Indian army. They have 7.62*39, 7.62*51, 7.62* 54, and 5.56 nato. All in service, all at the same time. That, IMHO is the source of the current mess.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by bala »

IMO, this is where mantriji needs to step in and provide some direction. I am fine with keeping the INSAS name for the rifle, call it INSAS-II or INSAS-3. A national design contest should be the norm and the best design wins after some qualification/tests. In addition, 3 vendors (include OFB, include winner) can be selected based on their production capabilities and cost bids. QC/QA is conducted by 3rd party and once passed handed to Army for induction.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Bharadwaj wrote: 13 Jan 2024 17:12 Thakur B Some video going around youtube quoting aweil showing their new 7.62 51. They are also talking of a rfp for 800000 rifles? :eek: . A bit confused here since I was under the impression the ak deal was very much on track if a bit delayed due to the Ukraine war?
What can we say. It's raining rifles. Our very own AK308 and AKV721 showing up in a week. It is a refined version of R2 rifle which was seen half a decade back. Waiting for SSS to drop in their 7.62x51 rifle too.

Meanwhile Adani is setting up ammunition plant in Kanpur.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by morem »

if i recall correctly the OFB manufactured ammunition was also responsible for a lot of issues. Hopefully the Adani ammo will sort those issues out.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Samay »

sanjayc wrote: 13 Jan 2024 20:10 We need a national rifle project -- invite top private manufacturers like Kalyani, Tatas, etc. and ask them to submit a design. The only condition being the IP has to fully reside with the Indian entity. They will hire gun design consultants from all over the world and design a world-class rifle in two months. Let them submit a prototype. The army tests the prototypes and production contract is handed over to the winner. I mean, how hard can this be (we have the ATAGS development template already)? But we again see potbellied managers from OFB (with 100% job security and union backing) producing some shit crude rifle and showcasing it to the army (who is not given any other option than either OFB or go straight for imports).
OFBs and other defense establishments could only do what they are enabled to do.
Indian Defense scientists cant design and develop but crony bootlicker can ?
All that crony can do is import design ,components and claim it is Make in India, while distributing commission?
Same things Indian factories can do, but it is better to be dependent on a crony , who can hugely raise prices at will any time ?
Something is seriously wrong in the thinking of defense manufacturing concept in India.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

morem wrote: 14 Jan 2024 00:12 if i recall correctly the OFB manufactured ammunition was also responsible for a lot of issues. Hopefully the Adani ammo will sort those issues out.
Adani can solve a lot of issues it seems. they somehow made 70 % indegenious MALE UAV in 12 months
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by morem »

lol
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Ammunition was a olw hanging fruit and it is heartening that apart from AWEIL stepping up the quality, there's Hughes, SSS and Adani group entering the field.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by bala »

I don't know the nuances of guns but this YT on TAR (trichy assault rifle) which has been in production by OFB for a while has been adopted by CRPF, BSF, Chandigarh police and many others. What is preventing the Indian Army to use a few of these guns? Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can explain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmxUK1ZXElU
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Because the CAPFs dont act with a chip on their shoulders, don't have a messed-up procurement system & don't have a strong import lobby in their highest echelons (because the gravy train is not big enough)
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

The IA has 3 sword arms: Artillery, Armor & Infantry

It has managed to screw-up the procurement/induction of all 3. Kudos!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by srin »

The funny thing about the Ugram rifle news. They developed this 7.62x51 rifle because the army's original choice of AK-203 - which is a 7.62x39 caliber rifle - is delayed.
At this time, does the army know what caliber they want ? If they want 7.62x51, why even have the AK-203 deal (other than for COIN) ? If they wanted 7.62x39, why even bother with Sig Sauer etc ?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
That’s why the IA wanted “interchangeable” barrel 5.56 or 7.62 … now they need two variants of 7.62 (x39 and x51) it seems :((

Can’t make up mind … interchangeable barrel :P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Prem Kumar wrote: 16 Jan 2024 11:03 Because the CAPFs dont act with a chip on their shoulders, don't have a messed-up procurement system & don't have a strong import lobby in their highest echelons (because the gravy train is not big enough)

CAPFs purchased lot after lot after lot of Arsenal's AKMs, completely imported. TAR orders are a recent thing. CISF, CRPF, BSF, ITBP, SSB, RPF combined are a bigger client. Lacs of rifles have been imported, and since these were small orders, it flew under the radar.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1747 ... 56485?s=20 ---> Tactix beats Star Aerospace

𝗧𝗔𝗖𝗧𝗜𝗫 emerges as the L-1 for the procurement of 𝟭𝟭𝟬 𝗠𝗼𝗱𝗶𝗳𝗶𝗰𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗞𝗶𝘁𝘀 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗗𝗿𝗮𝗴𝘂𝗻𝗼𝘃 𝗦𝗻𝗶𝗽𝗲𝗿 𝗥𝗶𝗳𝗹𝗲 (𝗗𝗦𝗥) by the Northern Command, Indian Army.

The L-1 bid price is ₹𝟴𝟮,𝟯𝟭,𝟴𝟱𝟬/-

Image
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by R Charan »

Indian Army Unveils Polaris ATVs: Nimble Warriors for Diverse Terrains

Image

As India celebrated its 75th Republic Day, the Indian Army unveiled a sleek new weapon in its arsenal – the Polaris all-terrain vehicle (ATV). This versatile machine promises to boost troop mobility and operational effectiveness in challenging terrain, from snow-capped peaks to scorching deserts.
https://defence.in/threads/indian-army- ... ains.3246/
Rakesh
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1754190293375836628?s=20 ---> ATAL - India's first pistol made by Astr Defence.

Image
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Browning 50cal made by AWEIL on a RCWS. 453 ordered by IN and Coast Guard.

https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping- ... trol-guns/
Thakur_B
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Post by Thakur_B »

Image

IWI ARAD carbine (AR15 derivative) manufactured by PLR, rumoured to be coming soon for Marcos and Para SF
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



Atal pistol by Astr, civilian version in 0.32 ACP.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

AK203 spotted in the wild (probably the direct import lot)
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

4 men 3 different calibres.

A logistical nightmare.
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