Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[nachiket]

I remember the Qatari mirages being a point of discussion when I was still an enthusiastic youngster eager to make his first post on BRF. All these years later...and we are still discussing the Qatari Mirages. I wonder if any other country handles its defence procurement this abysmally.

[Karan M]

None else do. We are headed for a world war and are currently engaged in a witch hunt vs our own R&D, trickle feeding both them and an unreformed mil, and centralised procurement power in the hands of a bureaucracy which looks at defence as an avoidable bugbear. When conflict breaks out, a lot of people are going to be shocked, upset at the state of affairs and a lot of finger pointing will occur. The usual bakras will be the domestic gang (DPSUs, DRDO etc). You won't see any accountability elsewhere. I don't wish to be scathing but what was promised in 2014 and where we are, there is a ton of difference.

[srai]

+1

[basant]

+1

[fanne]

I wish it were not true, but it is + 1

This govt has done great compared to what was being done before. It has rightly pushed back on money laundering through imports , but in revenge the brass, babu and international players have stymied domestic effort. Most of it is because domestically we were never ready to be self sufficient, and a little we were was sabotaged.

It would have been all fine, given time we would have caught up, but yes Ww3 is there somewhere (one can argue opening shots have already been fired, but contrary to expectation it has not gone new clear or at light speed at the beginning).

Look at how lca mk1a has been sabotaged, cannot make f404 fast enough, Arjun, engine will take 5 years to deliver…even ask 203 is delayed..and the funds take for ever to release, even if alternative was desi r&d.

I hope we have our detergent ready, we may have to brandish it or use it given lack of tactical options. Or God willing we can fight using million drones if that is the nature of new warfare.

The state of affair is positively depressing.

[Rakesh]

Please do not repost pictures when replying. Many users are on mobile phones.

One Harpoon is likely all these Jaguars will carry.

For comparison:
1) Jaguar is a small bird + can carry 1 Harpoon with MTOW of 16,000 Kg
2) F-18 C/D Hornet is a medium bird + can carry 2 Harpoons with MTOW of 23500 Kg
3) F-18 E/F Super Hornet is a big bird + can carry 4 Harpoons with MTOW of 30,000 Kg

Thank You Titash. Greatly appreciated. Nice post. Nothing like specs to put things into perspective.

[Manish_P]

Not a fighter gentlemen, but don't forget that we do have the P8I Poseidon. That huge bird carry 4 Harpoons with MTOW of 85,820 kg

[Aditya_V]

I am sure Su 30 can carry 4 Kh 31 and Tejas , Mig 29 can carry 2

[srai]

Harpoon AShM weights only 690kg. Technically, even Tejas could carry 5 of them given the payload capacity of its hard points.

Take a look at NASM-MR in the below diagram. It will be similar in size/weight to the Harpoon.

[Kartik]

Jaguar IM (Serial # JM260) with the AGM-84 Harpoon AShM.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1753334527123161217?s=20 --->

Can't these Jags carry more firepower ?..
with just 1 Harpoon, it seems to be too lightly loaded..

On an operational mission they'll be armed with at least 2 ASRAAMs to provide some self-defence capability.

[Kartik]

I wish it were not true, but it is + 1

This govt has done great compared to what was being done before. It has rightly pushed back on money laundering through imports , but in revenge the brass, babu and international players have stymied domestic effort. Most of it is because domestically we were never ready to be self sufficient, and a little we were was sabotaged.

It would have been all fine, given time we would have caught up, but yes Ww3 is there somewhere (one can argue opening shots have already been fired, but contrary to expectation it has not gone new clear or at light speed at the beginning).

Look at how lca mk1a has been sabotaged, cannot make f404 fast enough, Arjun, engine will take 5 years to deliver…even ask 203 is delayed..and the funds take for ever to release, even if alternative was desi r&d.

I hope we have our detergent ready, we may have to brandish it or use it given lack of tactical options. Or God willing we can fight using million drones if that is the nature of new warfare.

The state of affair is positively depressing.

LCA Mk1A sabotaged? By whom? GE? Who is at fault if GE has issues with their own suppliers after COVID and isn't able to deliver as fast as it originally thought? Bureaucrats? the IAF? HAL?

the IAF is on the verge of ordering 180 LCA Mk1As and still there is blame to be laid on someone's doorstep?

LCA Mk2 has been funded and the program for GE F-414 engines to be built in India with 80% ToT is a few months away from signature. AMCA is months away from AoN as well. If anything, this govt has made sure that the IAF sees that it cannot get away with piddly orders for indigenous equipment and then harp for imports.

Yes there are cases where the ball has been dropped and we will always wish for more money for defence and definitely improved timelines but are things as dire as they're being made out to be?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1758437185114796112?s=20 ---> Nobody's holding their breaths, but the Indian MoD just cleared decks for India's sixth (?) attempt at acquiring flight refueller/tanker aircraft. Our update from less than a year ago:

https://www.livefistdefence.com/after-2 ... ker-needs/

[nachiket]

Can't these Jags carry more firepower ?..
with just 1 Harpoon, it seems to be too lightly loaded..

On an operational mission they'll be armed with at least 2 ASRAAMs to provide some self-defence capability.

While I know that this is standard practice I wonder how useful those ASRAAM's will truly be in the modern battlefield. If the Jags get intercepted by enemy fighters (all of which are BVR capable now) and have no escorts of their own their only real chance at survival would be to hightail it out of there on full afterburner. Even if they do have escorts again their best chance is to stay out side the BVR missile range of the enemy till they are dealt with and then go in to finish their mission. The ASRAAMs only become useful if they somehow survive all the AMRAAM/PL-12 shots without running away and get into a WVR fight with enemy fighters which would still be highly inadvisable considering the Jag's lack of maneuverability.

[isubodh]

LCA Mk1A sabotaged? By whom? GE? Who is at fault if GE has issues with their own suppliers after COVID and isn't able to deliver as fast as it originally thought? Bureaucrats? the IAF? HAL?

Yes, either it is HAL or IAF or the MoD.
If they didn't forsee the risk and devised suitable strategy it's their incompetence.
One of them surly needs to learn project management 101.
With such critical project of national security, what GE thought does not meets the mark.

[fanne]

In the sabotage list there is also mention of international players

[fanne]

One thing could have been done (if there was firm resolve to have lca made no matter what) order engines ahead. I have a feeling, it was done after 2014. If you see official GE website, they mention 120+ f404 in 6 variant manufactured. Don’t know what to make of it, either we already have 120 engines in India or there is is some flaw in the reporting.
https://www.geaerospace.com/propulsion/military/f404
Look at section under tejas
HAL Tejas Mark 1
Single engine, supersonic, multirole fighter

Country of origin:
India
Entry to service:
2015
Number Produced:
120+

[VinodTK]

StratNewsGlobal
#indianairforce 's #china Challenge In #ladakh, And A Slice Of #tibet | #twofrontthreat #leh

The Indian Air Force's Leh base, the challenge from the China and Pakistan two-front threat, protecting India's borders from Chinese aggression and preserving Tibet's Buddhism from Chinese repression is the subject of this documentary. In 'The Himalayan Frontier' Part VII here's a look at Shakti & Shanti (Power & Peace) in Ladakh. We record a day in the life of the Indian Air Force's Air Warriors at the Air Force Station (AFS), Leh in Ladakh that is at the frontline of dealing with the China and Pakistan two-front threat. Continuing our series, a StratNews Global team of Amitabh P. Revi, Rohit Pandita and Karan Marwaha document the IAF Mig-29, Sukhoi-MKI and Rafale fighter jets, the C-17 Globemaster, Il-76 and An-32 transport aircraft and the Cheetals of the 'Siachen Pioneers' 114 Helicopter Unit in their operations at, to and from the Indian Air Force's AFS, Leh. India has ramped up its military posture along the Northern borders after the deadly 2020 Galwan clashes with China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) forces. And the Indian Air Force's AFS Leh plays a significant role in that.

[srai]

IAF Vayu Shakti 2024

[Rakesh]

As far as I know there are no underground hangars anywhere in the world (other than on aircraft carriers ) that require a lift to take the plane up and down into a below surface level storage facility.

Not a lift, but I saw this a few days back on Twitter...

https://x.com/AviationMarlene/status/17 ... 31280?s=20 ---> Storing Mirage IIIs in one of Switzerland's secret underground air bases.

[Indrajit]

Even Iraqi Airforce had underground hangars in H3 & H4.

[Rakesh]

I did not know about Iraq, but got some pretty cool photos of an underground air base in Iran. An article from last year.

Iran Unveils New Underground Air Base
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pol ... d-air-base
13 Feb 2023

Also this ---> viewtopic.php?p=2578351#p2578351
+
Video of the same airbase ---> https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 83q_tasjKw

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/175877 ... 57814?s=20 ---> Chutzpah!

[prashantsharma]

Correct. As mentioned in that discussion, these are storage tunnels dug into a mountain side. The gantry crane is to rotate/ position / move the aircraft horizontally over other aircraft. The tunnels are essentially level with the airfield / runway outside.
Very interesting, and first time I saw such a contraption.

As far as I know there are no underground hangars anywhere in the world (other than on aircraft carriers ) that require a lift to take the plane up and down into a below surface level storage facility.

Not a lift, but I saw this a few days back on Twitter...

https://x.com/AviationMarlene/status/17 ... 31280?s=20 ---> Storing Mirage IIIs in one of Switzerland's secret underground air bases.

[Rakesh]

CCS clears Rs 13,000 crore IAF projects for high-power radars
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 222200649/
22 Feb 2024

[Rakesh]

Vijainder K Thakur pushing for Su-75 Checkmate to join the Indian Air Force

Ominous Emerging Stealth Gap in IAF Operational Capability Needs Urgent Plugging
https://sputniknews.in/20240220/ominous ... 18250.html
20 Feb 2024

Just as the Chinese are pitching their J-31 stealth fighter primarily for exports, Russia too is developing its Su-75 Checkmate single engine light stealth fighter primarily for exports. Russia has stated that it's open to JV manufacturing of the Su-75 in a partner country. Such a JV would be in perfect alignment with India's Make-in-India and Atmanirbharta paradigms.

Besides plugging the emerging stealth gap, local manufacture of the Su-75 in India could generate billions in exports as has been the case with the Brahmos missile, and may well be the case with the Su-30MKI modernisation program. India's manufacture of the Su-75 would in no way compromise its AMCA program. The AMCA is a twin engine medium weight stealth fighter, whereas the Su-75 is a single engine lightweight stealth fighter. A single engine fighter performs a different role than a twin engine fighter; it is cheaper to acquire and operate. The Su-75 will remain relevant to the IAF's operational needs well after the IAF starts to induct the AMCA.

[srai]

^^^
No self-belief even after Tejas!

[VinodTK]

Ladakh Standoff Has Boosted Jointness Amongst Services, Says Air Force Chief

[prashantsharma]

Some of VK Thakur's analysis and posts on X are hilarious

[Samay]

^^^
No self-belief even after Tejas!

Intentions are faulty. People are helpless against this corrupt system existing since at least 200 yrs.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1761 ... 74961?s=20 ---> 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻 𝗔𝗶𝗿 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗰𝗲 has released a 𝗥𝗲𝗾𝘂𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗜𝗻𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 for the procurement of three 𝗜𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗲𝗻𝗰𝗲, 𝗦𝘂𝗿𝘃𝗲𝗶𝗹𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲, 𝗧𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲𝘁𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗥𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗻𝗻𝗮𝗶𝘀𝘀𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲 (𝗜𝗦𝗧𝗔𝗥) s𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗼𝗰𝗶𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗱 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘀𝗲𝗴𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁 under 𝗕𝘂𝘆 (𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻-𝗜𝗗𝗗𝗠) 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗕𝘂𝘆 (𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻) provision of 𝗗𝗔𝗣-𝟮𝟬𝟮𝟬. The three 𝗜𝗦𝗧𝗔𝗥 aircraft systems will be delivered within 𝟲𝟬 𝗺𝗼𝗻𝘁𝗵𝘀 after signing of contract.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1761346 ... 48830?s=20 ---> So IAF RFI out for three ISTAR aircraft with SAR (200+ km) & EO/IR LOROP (150+ km) sensor data disseminated to two fixed and four mobile ground stations. Delivery of all three aircraft in 5 years of contract. Aircraft should have 8 hour endurance, service ceiling 40k feet, RWR, MAWS, CMDS.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1761 ... 67815?s=20 ---> ISTAR Platform Choices:

1. Gulfstream G550



2. Embraer Legacy 450/500



3. Dassault Falcon series



4. Bombardier Global 6000

[Kakkaji]

Of the above list, I think the Dassault Falcon is already being assembled in India at the DRAL facility in Nagpur

[Kartik]

Of the above list, I think the Dassault Falcon is already being assembled in India at the DRAL facility in Nagpur

Only some parts are being built there. There is no assembly happening as yet.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1764902 ... 55822?s=20 ---> IAF wants a helicopter launched weaponised drone with M-UMT capability. Capable of launching from Mi-17 class helicopter with a minimum warhead of 50 kg & a minimum range of 40 km, EO/IR seeker. 8 drones needed through ADITI. Such NLOS effects should be considered for LCH Prachand fleet too.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1764898 ... 88643?s=20 ---> So IAF wants a rocket/engine assisted Range Extension Kit (REK) with EO/IR head for terminal guidance that can be fitted on the existing 250 kg HSLD bombs. Range >150 Km (for launch altitude of 5 km/ 0.8 Mach). Five kits to be developed for ADITI challenge. Very good initiative.

[Prem Kumar]

Thanks Rakesh, for keeping so many threads alive & up-to-date!!

[Rakesh]

Thanks Rakesh, for keeping so many threads alive & up-to-date!!

You are welcome Saar.

[basant]

Thanks Rakesh, for keeping so many threads alive & up-to-date!!

+100! Thanks Admiral.

[Rakesh]

+100! Thanks Admiral.

You are welcome Saar.

[Rakesh]

IAF Approves Multi-Million Initiative to Enhance MiG-29 Fleet with Improved Engines and Extended Service Life
https://defence.in/threads/iaf-approves ... life.3919/
24 Feb 2024