Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[ramana]

IA should look at this new doctrine from Russo-Ukraine War:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebastienr ... bf674e4bb3

[RoyG]

Ramana,

In a previous post I had discussed how we have cracked many of the problems that the Russians are facing today in Ukraine in the form of IBG and modified cold start doctrine. The Russians did not prosecute this war properly from the start. The trick is you have to synchronize with your diplomacy and information warfare. Because they didn’t do this, they failed to create any force multipliers outside of the regions with significant russian populations. So the campaign has pretty much grinder down to a standstill. They have to resort to tricks like this now to hold the lines and incrementally capture land when necessary.

[Pratyush]

This is the return of the world war 2 red army storm platoons with modern technology and weapons.

During World war 2, the storm detachment was designed to close in with the enemy and destroy it.

It was specifically armed with weapons designed for the purpose.

These were 28 to 40 man detachments.

Armed with PPshs submachine guns, DP28 machine gun, PTRD 20 MM Anti Tank Rifle. Plus more hand grenades then god.

No bolt action rifles.

[Pratyush]

This is the only thing that I have been able to find on the internet in over 30 minutes of searching about the infantry assault tactics of the red army.

[Paul]

Military: Arrogance of Seniority

[wig]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/co ... 9a452&ei=7

Army set to induct tribals with similar traits to stem depleting number of Nepalese Gorkhas
extracts

With the depleting strength of Nepalese Gorkhas in the force -- a situation that arose after Kathmandu stopped sending its youths to join the Indian Army on the grounds that the 'Agnipath' scheme violated a 1947 tripartite agreement between India, Nepal and the United Kingdom, the top echelons of the defence establishment are getting ready to induct 'tribals with similar (Gorkha) traits' into the Gorkha Rifles.

the areas from where recruitment is planned

Stating that the character of the Gorkha Rifles will be the same, the sources said that tribals from states like Uttarakhand, Himachal Pradesh, Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh and Assam will be recruited as they are hardened and their traits and physical appearances are similar to the Nepalese Gorkhas. It is pertinent to mention here that the Gorkha Regiments have a 60:40 ratio between Nepalese Gorkhas and Indian-resident Gorkhas in the Indian Army. There are few units, which even have more than 70 per cent Nepalese Gorkhas.

[Tanaji]

Military: Arrogance of Seniority

Cant say one is shocked really. It seems the worst traits of Paki crore commanders are being picked up by at least a portion of the top brass. If the IA top leadership is complicit in these, it will take the RM and his babooze to nip this further enhancing bureaucracy’s stranglehold. No one wins from this.

[chetak]

After 22 years, an unwarranted court martial, and a life and reputation that was pulverized.

what a terrible miscarriage of justice, both by the IA and the civil courts

now this ^%$*^& presstitute will approach the SC for another few decades of delay

Delhi HC orders journalist Tarun Tejpal, news platform Tehelka and two reporters to pay ₹2 crore in damages to Maj Gen MS Ahluwalia for defamation.

Order comes 22 years after Tehelka carried a sting operation saying that Ahluwalia was involved in corruption in the defence deals.

[bala]

Theater command, USA weaponry and China by Lt. Gen P. R. Shankar



Interesting tidbit: M777 artillery gun spares are being made in India and supplied to worldwide M777 maintenance.

The USA has unplugged semiconductors from China. India is trying to get semiconductor manufacture for the world and itself.

Global Times (mouthpiece of China) is saying that India is a regional power and the US-India interests/partnership is to balance China.

[SRajesh]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86858.html
A noob question
Common Uniform above the Rank of Brigadie: how good is this??
My question is: will it not make them easily identifiable and marked especially for jihadi and other for targeting

[isubodh]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86858.html
A noob question
Common Uniform above the Rank of Brigadie: how good is this??
My question is: will it not make them easily identifiable and marked especially for jihadi and other for targeting

How much difference was in existing uniforms that jihad couldn't identify them as someone from Indian Army?
Do jihadi need to figure our what is parent Cadre or which branch before targeting ?

[Atmavik]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86858.html
A noob question
Common Uniform above the Rank of Brigadie: how good is this??
My question is: will it not make them easily identifiable and marked especially for jihadi and other for targeting

This is practiced in the US military. It’s symbolic in nature that the officers Brig and above are now thinking beyond their strong regimental affiliation.

This is mostly for Optics but standardization is always welcome

[Rakesh]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 86858.html
A noob question
Common Uniform above the Rank of Brigadie: how good is this??
My question is: will it not make them easily identifiable and marked especially for jihadi and other for targeting

https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/ ... 18560?s=20 ---> Then & Now. Northern Army Commander, Lieutenant General Upendra Dwivedi in the new, common uniform (right) for senior officers.

Note, in the new uniform:

* Lanyard Dropped
* Belt bears Army Crest
* Brass Ranks
* Ladakh Scouts arm patch gone
* Green Berets for all

[R Charan]

Indian Army Enhances Operational Capabilities with Cutting-Edge Aerial Assets and Firearms
https://www.defencenews.in/2023/09/indi ... -firearms/
11 Sept 2023

[sanman]

Divider-in-Chief visits army as part of his mission to take power:

[Rakesh]

This is going to ruffle some feathers

India must invest more in land forces—victory is measured in terms of territory gained or lost
https://theprint.in/opinion/india-must- ... t/1765382/
18 September 2023

Modernisation of the Navy and Air Force, which are ‘platform centric’ and operating in only one medium, is relatively easy.

[titash]

This is going to ruffle some feathers

India must invest more in land forces—victory is measured in terms of territory gained or lost
https://theprint.in/opinion/india-must- ... t/1765382/
18 September 2023

Modernisation of the Navy and Air Force, which are ‘platform centric’ and operating in only one medium, is relatively easy.

"Akhand Bharat", "Not Even a Blade of Grass", "Platform Centric Services"

Mein Gott!

In one fell swoop, the good general has managed to antagonize the IN, the IAF, the entire Pakistani establishment, and the INC Party

Clearly there's more than enough political backing behind his visit to Taiwan - no wonder the Cheenis are so pi$$ed.

Also good to know that Modi has been focused on promoting 'India-first' and 'Atmanirbhar-focused' and ideologically committed chiefs of staff like Gen Rawat, Navarane, Pandey. These guys will go the extra mile as compared to the wine & dine generals.

On that note, he must have seen something in ACM Chaudhuri that we in BRF do not yet understand / appreciate.

I like it

[SSridhar]

Army set for massive drill to test new-generation weapons, tech - Rajat Pandit, ToI

The Army has geared up for a massive combat exercise to test new-generation weapon systems and technologies as well as to validate new concepts in long-range firepower, battle-readiness and force-preservation, including lessons learnt from the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war.

Preparations are in full swing on the western front in Rajasthan for the ‘Trishakti Prahar’ exercise of the 21 Corps, which is one of the four major “strike formations” of the 12-lakh strong Army, sources told TOI.

“The final phase of the two-side exercise will be in the first half of November. Over 30,000 troops, T-90S and Arjun main-battle tanks, a wide array of howitzers, choppers and the like are participating in the exercise. Fighter jets, Apache attack and Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and other aircraft from the IAF and Navy will also be there,” a source said.

Integrated air-land and combined arms operations, swifter mobilisation and deep-strike offensive capabilities, including “degradation by long-range vectors and precision high-volume strikes” backed by ISR (intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance) and electronic warfare capabilities, will all be tested during the war game.

“Better mobility and effective shoot-and-scoot capabilities, another crucial force-preservation lesson from the Russia-Ukraine conflict, will be another focus area. Similarly, armed swarm drones and loitering munitions or kamikaze drones will also be in play,” the source said.

The ongoing military confrontation with China in eastern Ladakh, which is into its fourth year now, has led the Army to go in for huge emergency procurements (EP), including niche technologies ranging from unmanned aerial vehicles(UAVs/drones), precision-guided missiles and loiter munitions to counter-drone, communication and automatic spectrum monitoring systems.

After 68 deals worth Rs 6,600 crore in the first three EP tranches, another 49 schemes worth Rs 7,600 crore have been inked in the fourth tranche. “Moreover, 34 other schemes worth around Rs 7,000 crore are in the final stages,” another source said.

Several of the newly-inducted weapon systems and technologies will be “test-bedded” during the Trishakti Prahar exercise. “Parallelly, a large number of cases for modernization and technology-infusion are also underway to ensure an agile future-ready force, incorporating niche technologies through indigenous solutions,” he added.

The critical need for self-reliance in defence production, technologies and R&D, with resilient supply chains for military sustenance, is after all one of the key lessons that has emerged from the Russia-Ukraine war.

“Moreover, it has underscored the need to also prepare for multi-domain wars of longer durations. Earlier, the dominant thought was that conflicts will be short, intense and swift,” a senior officer said.

The heightened tensions all along the 3,488-km Line of Actual Control has also seen the Army — which has 14 corps, each with around 40,000 to 70,000 troops — re-balance a large number of additional forces and firepower to the frontier with China.

[Brad Goodman]

Russia's Most Advanced Frontline Tank Absolutely Detonates When Hit By Missile

Ukrainian forces have destroyed one of Russia's advanced T-90M Proryv-3 (Breakthrough-3) main battle tanks in dramatic fashion, as recent video footage shows. The T-90M in question ended up losing its turret as a result of the catastrophic destruction — something which plagues Soviet and Soviet-derived tank designs, in particular, where ammunition is stored directly underneath their turrets.

While Ukrainian forces have been actively destroying advanced T-90Ms for some time, the spectacular footage of the most recent loss shows just how fast things can go bad when one of these tanks is struck by enemy fire in the right spot.

[Prem Kumar]

"We will fight with what we have"
"What we have is what we can import"
..... hmph!

[Manish_P]

Russia's Most Advanced Frontline Tank Absolutely Detonates When Hit By Missile ...

This is scorched earth policy.

Don't leave stuff behind for the enemy to use against you in future.

If American design policy was the same then there would be no headaches like the ones the pakis are facing now...

yes, I am being sarcastic

[Pratyush]

Why is what is happening with USSR tanks any surprise.

Right since the 91 gulf war we have seen this phenomenon.

Every time the loss of tank was dismissed as a the tank being an export model.

Now that the tanks of home nation are suffering. People are coming up with such explanation.

[Yagnasri]

In the case of the Gulf war, it is true. In case of a UKN war, T90 or any tank can be destroyed if not used correctly or if the other side has the tools to destroy it. It is always a chase between the offensive power and protection.

Tin Cans have several weaknesses and are supposed to be used in mass in European theatre along with massive arti and mechanised forces. Small size and mobility is supposed to be help in the protection other than its armour and it is supposed to be used with the support of infentory.

[Manish_P]

Why is what is happening with USSR tanks any surprise.

Right since the 91 gulf war we have seen this phenomenon.
...

I think the surprise, for the westerners, is why hasn't post USSR / post Gulf war russia adopted western design standards.

Small size and mobility is supposed to be help in the protection other than its armour and it is supposed to be used with the support of infentory.

Larger size, heavier armor will see it get into MBT Arjun territory. Then what to do?

[Yagnasri]

I am pretty sure Tin Cans also have reasonable protection. Small size/less height is also part of the protection, as it becomes a smaller target. Autoloader helps in small size by reducing crow from 4 to 3. So, the loss of protection due to the smaller size is not much. Arjun has no autoloader, hence a 4-person crow and bigger size. Plus Arjun also has far better protection plus blow-out panels for storage of the rounds that will help crow survivalists.

[Pratyush]

1) This whole autoloader discussion for the USSR origin tanks makeing them lighter than western tanks is a red herring.

The K2, the Turkish Altey, the French Leclerc, all have autoloader. They are all 50 plus tons.

2) Towards the end of the cold war, the red army was working on a series of tanks that were quite unique in terms of protection and armour layouts. Those were all in the 60 ton range.

Post 91 Russian economic situation, precluded selection or even entry into service of any such vehicle. Armata family is a culmination of design efforts for one of those vehicles.

3) There is a reason why all the western tanks are in the 60 plus tons territory. Including tanks of an expeditionary US army.

The 73 war in middle East was an impetus for the development of those tanks.

Coupled with a whole series of technical breakthroughs, in terms of Composite armour and solid-state fire control computers.

[sajaym]

The 73 war in middle East was an impetus for the development of those tanks.

Israel is getting ready it's tanks for an incursion into the Gaza strip. Already one of their tanks was taken out by a Hamas drone. How the Israeli tanks fare against Hamas drone attacks, might be the impetus for another round of tank development.

[Karan M]

Army set for massive drill to test new-generation weapons, tech - Rajat Pandit, ToI

The Army has geared up for a massive combat exercise to test new-generation weapon systems and technologies as well as to validate new concepts in long-range firepower, battle-readiness and force-preservation, including lessons learnt from the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war.

Preparations are in full swing on the western front in Rajasthan for the ‘Trishakti Prahar’ exercise of the 21 Corps, which is one of the four major “strike formations” of the 12-lakh strong Army, sources told TOI.

“The final phase of the two-side exercise will be in the first half of November. Over 30,000 troops, T-90S and Arjun main-battle tanks, a wide array of howitzers, choppers and the like are participating in the exercise. Fighter jets, Apache attack and Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and other aircraft from the IAF and Navy will also be there,” a source said.

Integrated air-land and combined arms operations, swifter mobilisation and deep-strike offensive capabilities, including “degradation by long-range vectors and precision high-volume strikes” backed by ISR (intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance) and electronic warfare capabilities, will all be tested during the war game.

“Better mobility and effective shoot-and-scoot capabilities, another crucial force-preservation lesson from the Russia-Ukraine conflict, will be another focus area. Similarly, armed swarm drones and loitering munitions or kamikaze drones will also be in play,” the source said.

The ongoing military confrontation with China in eastern Ladakh, which is into its fourth year now, has led the Army to go in for huge emergency procurements (EP), including niche technologies ranging from unmanned aerial vehicles(UAVs/drones), precision-guided missiles and loiter munitions to counter-drone, communication and automatic spectrum monitoring systems.

After 68 deals worth Rs 6,600 crore in the first three EP tranches, another 49 schemes worth Rs 7,600 crore have been inked in the fourth tranche. “Moreover, 34 other schemes worth around Rs 7,000 crore are in the final stages,” another source said.

Several of the newly-inducted weapon systems and technologies will be “test-bedded” during the Trishakti Prahar exercise. “Parallelly, a large number of cases for modernization and technology-infusion are also underway to ensure an agile future-ready force, incorporating niche technologies through indigenous solutions,” he added.

The critical need for self-reliance in defence production, technologies and R&D, with resilient supply chains for military sustenance, is after all one of the key lessons that has emerged from the Russia-Ukraine war.

“Moreover, it has underscored the need to also prepare for multi-domain wars of longer durations. Earlier, the dominant thought was that conflicts will be short, intense and swift,” a senior officer said.

The heightened tensions all along the 3,488-km Line of Actual Control has also seen the Army — which has 14 corps, each with around 40,000 to 70,000 troops — re-balance a large number of additional forces and firepower to the frontier with China.

Cant believe how we hype up such limited acquisitions and make it appear they are sufficient. We will overall place orders for around $3Bn, over years, and are acting as if we've arrived. One year into a conflict, Ukraine has burnt through an emtire Army & almost a second backstopped by around a $100Bn worth of kit from US and Europe. And its still not sufficient. Meanwhile, a random look at any AF orbat shows huge glaring gaps in our inventory. At this rate conflict with Pak and PRC is inevitable as they see our attitude towards modernisation and decide to take advantage of it.

[Pratyush]

Israel is getting ready it's tanks for an incursion into the Gaza strip. Already one of their tanks was taken out by a Hamas drone. How the Israeli tanks fare against Hamas drone attacks, might be the impetus for another round of tank development.

People who are in the business of war have already been looking at development of future MBT. Ever since, ISIS dropped an Anti tank granade down the hatch of an Iraqi M1A1 with a drone.

That was over 10 years ago.

Every conflict since then has resulted in new lessons. Along with reinforcement of old lessons.

Even the Indian army with it's FRCV program over the last several years. Is looking at a remarkably capable vehicle. Capable of performing the mission on a battlefield littered with such threats.

[sajaym]

People who are in the business of war have already been looking at development of future MBT. Ever since, ISIS dropped an Anti tank granade down the hatch of an Iraqi M1A1 with a drone.

That was over 10 years ago.

4 days ago, a bunch of beggars dropped a bomb on a tank of the most advanced army in the world and took it out. Seems like apparently not much has been learned or developed.

[Pratyush]

That one act is not an indication of what a Merkava 5 is capable of. This vehicle entered service on only September of this year.

The Merkava 4 is what was killed. Active protection system for that vehicle is only capable of handling a direct missile and RPG.

[Prem Kumar]

The DG Artillery has put a hold to large volume acquisitions & are having their famous re-think in light of the Ukraine war

On cue, DGMF will watch the Hamas drone mission-killing a Merkava and will re-think tanks till they arrive at 27th generation warfare

Meanwhile, China-Pak will wait till we get our act together. After all, what are neighbors for?

[Rakesh]

Massive Transformation Underway in Indian Army: General Pande
https://bharatshakti.in/massive-transfo ... gen-pande/
14 Oct 2023

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ZenTechnologies/status/17 ... 11453?s=20 ---> Press Release: @ZenTechnologies has secured an order of ₹100 Cr from the Ministry of Defence, India. This strategic acquisition heralds our cutting-edge Force-On-Force Tank Training System, a testament to our unwavering commitment to modernizing military training.

[bala]

Indian Army, URI Surgical Strike, Terrorism & Threat To India - Lt Gen Satish Dua
In 2016, 16 Indian army soldiers died at the hands of terrorist attack. The then defence minister, Manohar Parrikar authorized a surgical strike on URI and Lt Gen Satish Dua was in charge. A 2019 Hindi movie Uri: The Surgical Strike was made.

Lt Gen Satish Dua explains in this YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkq53He5l3I

[Rakesh]

I echo the sentiment in the tweet below from Baba-ji

VIDEO: https://x.com/RealBababanaras/status/17 ... 51514?s=20 ---> Watch the best video of the day on X. If you get goosebumps, don't forget to repost.

[Prem Kumar]

Indian Army, URI Surgical Strike, Terrorism & Threat To India - Lt Gen Satish Dua
In 2016, 16 Indian army soldiers died at the hands of terrorist attack. The then defence minister, Manohar Parrikar authorized a surgical strike on URI and Lt Gen Satish Dua was in charge. A 2019 Hindi movie Uri: The Surgical Strike was made.

Lt Gen Satish Dua explains in this YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkq53He5l3I

In the intro, Lt Gen Dua explains how the Def Min asked him to ensure that there wouldn't be any "own casualties". To which the Gen replied "Sir, this is war. Anything can happen"

Perfect answer to an inane question by arguably one of our best Def Min (Parikkar Ji). It shows the extent of defensiveness and lack of realism in the thought process of our political class. Its inane for 2 reasons:

1) Like the Gen explains, its dumb to even demand that there be zero casualties on our side. Even an average civilian knows that war means blood
2) Even if there are casualties, we will suffer only 1/10 or 1/100 of the casualties if we kill them over there, rather than over here. So, from a simple, cold logic, we should do surgical strikes on a regular basis. Like housecleaning on weekends

But Modi/Parikkar, with their emphasis on zero casualties, have made surgical strikes into some sort of a gold plated option, that requires extreme planning, superb deception, perfect intel and execution.

This will never happen on a repeated basis. Hence, we only did 2 perfect surgical strikes, instead of 200 imperfect ones. The cost we have paid for this approach is massive. Both in terms of the money spent on stopping infiltration and the lives of officers/jawans lost

Ironically, 200 imperfect surgical strikes would have annihilated terror infra in Pakiland, while we'd have lost far fewer soldiers than we did in COIN

[Manish_P]

...

In the intro, Lt Gen Dua explains how the Def Min asked him to ensure that there wouldn't be any "own casualties". To which the Gen replied "Sir, this is war. Anything can happen"

Perfect answer to an inane question by arguably one of our best Def Min (Parikkar Ji). It shows the extent of defensiveness and lack of realism in the thought process of our political class. Its inane for 2 reasons:
...

IMHO the ex def. minister was an intelligent enough person aware of the risks and dangers. Not only of casualties but also that some soldiers might get captured alive and used for propaganda purposes/extortion.

He might therefore have been exploring (or hinting at) options like using long range artillery/air strikes to neutralize the launch pads near the LoC. This course of action was indeed resorted to later after the Pulwama attack.

[Aditya_V]

[

But Modi/Parikkar, with their emphasis on zero casualties, have made surgical strikes into some sort of a gold plated option, that requires extreme planning, superb deception, perfect intel and execution.

This will never happen on a repeated basis. Hence, we only did 2 perfect surgical strikes, instead of 200 imperfect ones. The cost we have paid for this approach is massive. Both in terms of the money spent on stopping infiltration and the lives of officers/jawans lost

Ironically, 200 imperfect surgical strikes would have annihilated terror infra in Pakiland, while we'd have lost far fewer soldiers than we did in COIN

I dont think so , it will just it easy for Pakis to wait and Ambush our soldiers and display them, we need to dominate them and make hold the aces up the escalation order, First we need to fix our procurement and local MIC, ability to knock Helicopters, Trucks, Ammo, Equipment, Artillery, Bridges, Electricity infrastructure on the Paki side of the LOC, and huge minefields on their side fired by our artillery, so Jihadis trying to cross over need to die in the ratio 20 or 25 is to 1 before crossing the LOC. All this will take at least 15-20 years.

An odd surgical strike with suprise is ok, its a morale victory but does little on the ground. Only getting the Pakistan army to leave their side of LOC will allow lesser infiltration.

26-Feb-19 and 27-Feb-19 showed that the PAF is very piece of this game and it only because 26-2-19 strikes and 27-2-19 Swift retreat was failure notwithstanding the capture of our Pilot and MIg Bis loss that Pakis shouted and blustered but could not do any major strike after Article 370 removal

Ultimately we have to break up Pakistan, and keep Pakis busy with its Western neighbors and hope for some depopulation in Pakistan for these issues to be sorted.

[Prem Kumar]

It hurts to be right on this.

Rajouri: 4 soldiers including 2 officers (one a Major) attained Veergati today. 3 out of 4 are from 9 Para SF. Terrible, terrible news

2 months back, one of the Army Commanders said We know there are 600 terrorists in launchpads in PoK. We likely even knew the names of a large number of the terrorist leaders in those launch-pads

Well, what did we do about that? A big NOTHING

How many more jawans & officers will we lose, trying to fight those 600?

They should have been taken out en-masse in PoK. But hey, our surgical strikes have to be *perfect*!