Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Cybaru]

I recall seeing the LDP on the static display Tejas at AI'23. I am trying to find pics of the same and will put it up once I find them.

My guess is that the photos with LDP were mostly during the weapons testing phase of the bird. Now that its mostly done and dusted may be it is not being utilised as much.

If the LDP is to be used only for air to ground weapons and that too particularly for Griffin-III/Paveway-II/IV LGBs only, then it would suggest that it will not or cannot be used as an IRST pod as well. If the pod is good enough to function as a viable IRST, then it would be used for most of the mission profiles.
All other air to ground guided weapons planned for the Tejas, like the SAAW, Gaurav/Gautam, Hammer, RudraM-1/2/3, possibly Rampage, possibly SPICE, do not require the Litening pod.

You will be surprised at how it is being used!

[fanne]

??

[Bala Vignesh]

There used to be a Litening-IV pod fitted on a dedicated 8th pylon, in front of the center fuselage hard point on the right edge of the fuselage.
Over the past couple of years, hardly any photos have been seen with the same.
Has this option been discontinued? The Litening-IV was to act as LDP, FLIR and also possibly a poor mans IRST. I remember a few years back there was a lot of discussion on whether the Litening could actually work like an IRST pod.
However, now the photos of Tejas with the Litening pod are few and far between. Is this option still being used? If not, what will be the LDP on the Tejas?

BTW, the LDP can be seen in the video of the astra yest firing as well.

[nachiket]

Sirji, with dual rack pylons are going to be available soon, so this should not be an issue.

I get that sir. What i was wondering was why not a dedicated under-nose hard-point

The Tomcat had such an arrangement for the IRST

IRST is a passive system that cannot interfere with the radar. The SPJ on the other hand needs to maximize jamming performance without interfering with the radar. Indranil and Nilesh's article linked earlier mentions that they found that the optimal performance was achieved with the SPJ on the outermost pylon. Bear in mind that even the MKI uses wingtip mounted SPJ pods and does not have an internal system or a dedicated HP despite its humungous size. Adding dedicated HP's not included in the original design is not trivial and can compromise aerodynamic performance. And the Tejas' small size means that it lacks space for a completely internal system (The Mk2 is being designed from the outset to have an internal EW system otoh).

You could possibly mount the SPJ on the Tejas's eighth HP where you normally mount the Litening pod but then it would be impossible to carry both together. Also being an underbody HP, the airframe itself might partially mask the emitter and reduce the jamming envelope.

[Manish_P]

IRST is a passive system that cannot interfere with the radar. The SPJ on the other hand needs to maximize jamming performance without interfering with the radar. Indranil and Nilesh's article linked earlier mentions that they found that the optimal performance was achieved with the SPJ on the outermost pylon. Bear in mind that even the MKI uses wingtip mounted SPJ pods and does not have an internal system or a dedicated HP despite its humungous size. Adding dedicated HP's not included in the original design is not trivial and can compromise aerodynamic performance. And the Tejas' small size means that it lacks space for a completely internal system (The Mk2 is being designed from the outset to have an internal EW system otoh).

You could possibly mount the SPJ on the Tejas's eighth HP where you normally mount the Litening pod but then it would be impossible to carry both together. Also being an underbody HP, the airframe itself might partially mask the emitter and reduce the jamming envelope.

Ah I suspected as much. Thanks for the explanation covering all the HPs and the critical size factor.

The AMCA and TEDBF will have internal system right?

[Kartik]

Can't see the tail number but the prototype of Mk1As are flying too. So it could be more than aerodynamics.

Aircraft is LA-5015. You can see it here, right above the left wheel in the MLG.

That isn't LA-5015. That is KH 2015, i.e. LSP-5.

[Rakesh]

My bad. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Rakesh]

There are more pictures in the link below, but just wanted to highlight this particular one.

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1706907 ... 76057?s=20 ----> On occasion of 91st anniversary celebrations, IAF is carrying out assorted fly pasts over Bhoj Tal, Bhopal. Trial runs from 24-27; 28th is FDR.

1. Su-30MKI refuels a Tejas LCA

[fanne]

Just to give an Idea - SU30MKI is 12% more weight than AN-32 empty weight and 45% more heavy loaded. It is similarly bigger than C-295, a plane which we are looking to turn into air to air refueler. SU30MKI can carry 20 tonnes of armament and fuel while c-295 can carry 9.5 tonnes of weight. We have 260 air refuelers currently flying.

[Bala Vignesh]

We have 260 air refuelers currently flying.

Not unless you want to denude our force of their heaviest strikers and most dominant fighters.

[drnayar]

We have 260 air refuelers currently flying.

Not unless you want to denude our force of their heaviest strikers and most dominant fighters.

it does depend on what ranges they plan to operate +/- drop tanks

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1709245967159984200?s=20 ---> HEADS UP.

IAF to take delivery of first series production twin seat LCA Tejas trainer tomorrow at 11 AM in Bengaluru.

[Prem Kumar]

I love the curves of the Tejas-Mk1 trainer more than that of the fighter

[Kersi]

I love the curves of the Tejas-Mk1 trainer more than that of the fighter

The front part, the nose, reminds me of the French Alpha Jet

[basant]

I love the curves of the Tejas-Mk1 trainer more than that of the fighter

The front part, the nose, reminds me of the French Alpha Jet

IMHO, it is closer to KB SAT SR-10.

Image Source: https://airrecognition.com/index.php/ne ... light.html

[Kartik]

Twitter link

First Tejas trainer LT-5201 handed over to the IAF at HAL Bangalore

[SidSom]

TOI puts the news out there...

IAF gets first LCA Tejas twin seater aircraft from HAL in boost for 'Aatmanirbhar Bharat'
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 156488.cms
04 Oct 2023

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1709510987756511375?s=20 ---> HAL hands over first series production LCA Tejas twin seat trainer to the Indian Air Force.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1709467 ... 54577?s=20 ---> EXCLUSIVE. @HALHQBLR hands over the 1st LCA Twin Seater Trainer aircraft to the Indian Air Force just now at HAL facilities in Bangalore. She's a beauty! Cheers to all.

[JTull]

Just a muse here. If I remember correctly, the trainers are still Mk1 FOC standard. If the new order of 97 is also for replacement of Jaguars, then it would be nice if we can develop a Mk1a version of two-seaters optimised for ground attack.

[basant]

Just a muse here. If I remember correctly, the trainers are still Mk1 FOC standard. If the new order of 97 is also for replacement of Jaguars, then it would be nice if we can develop a Mk1a version of two-seaters optimised for ground attack.

It's already a top performer for ground attack. What more are you aiming for, sir?

[titash]

Question to all mujahids here:

1) What is the expected role of a 2-seat Tejas trainer in wartime?

2) Is she as capable as a single seat variant when it comes to maneuverability? Assume there will be a weight penalty for the second pilot's equipment and as a consequence fuel/range/maneuverability will suffer? So perhaps CAP/dogfighting roles are out of scope?

3) Are these 2-seat trainers preferred for dropping LGBs i.e. precision strikes over enemy territory?

[JTull]

Just a muse here. If I remember correctly, the trainers are still Mk1 FOC standard. If the new order of 97 is also for replacement of Jaguars, then it would be nice if we can develop a Mk1a version of two-seaters optimised for ground attack.

It's already a top performer for ground attack. What more are you aiming for, sir?

2-seaters aren't! And 2-seaters are arguably better for ground attack than single seater.

I'm not aware of any store separation trials from these. Probably wind tunnel tests with different store mixes haven't been done either.

[Kakkaji]

With the large numbers of planned LCA inductions, the demand for these 2 seaters in trainer role itself will be very high. I don’t foresee their use in combat role, unless the cupboard goes really empty

I also heard on one of the channels that, out of the 18 trainers on order, 8 will be delivered in this financial year, and the remaining 10 by 2026. Therefore, I don’t see any trainers being available for combat role anytime soon

[ernest]

Question to all mujahids here:

1) What is the expected role of a 2-seat Tejas trainer in wartime?

2) Is she as capable as a single seat variant when it comes to maneuverability? Assume there will be a weight penalty for the second pilot's equipment and as a consequence fuel/range/maneuverability will suffer? So perhaps CAP/dogfighting roles are out of scope?

3) Are these 2-seat trainers preferred for dropping LGBs i.e. precision strikes over enemy territory?

I believe @hvtiaf has already hinted that it is best suited for MUMT with CATS system playing the role of mothership. So, ground attack will be the strength

[konaseema]

If I am not mistaken, the twin seater LCA-Navy has been earmarked for the role of mothership for the CATS system and not the IAF trainer.

[konaseema]

Almost all defense related YouTube channels and counting the 10 trainers ordered as part of the 83 Tejas order as Mk1A. Essentially we are looking at 73 + 97 = 170 Tejas Mk1A + 32 Tejas Mk1 + 18 Tejas Mk1 Trainers, which comes to ~ 12 Squadrons of Tejas Mk1/A aircrafts.

[Jay]

2-seaters aren't! And 2-seaters are arguably better for ground attack than single seater.

My understanding is that 2 seaters are not inherintly better but only preferable to share the workload between the pilot and navigator/RIO. But with the advancements in tech, a number of these functions can be automated enabling a single operator to do the same job. This will cut down on training costs and other ancillary costs for an airforce and most importantly, if a plane is lost in combat, there will be only 1 soul. I'm not sure what's IAF philosophy on this one is but I suspect if 1 pilot can do the job, they might not prefer to unnecessarily add another seat in the cockpit.

[pravula]

Ground attack with two pilots is just too risky these days. It needs to be AUAV or Remote UAV

[VishnuS]

Ground attack with two pilots is just too risky these days. It needs to be AUAV or Remote UAV

The second person need not be another pilot, he could be a WSO!

[ramana]

Almost all defense related YouTube channels and counting the 10 trainers ordered as part of the 83 Tejas order as Mk1A. Essentially we are looking at 73 + 97 = 170 Tejas Mk1A + 32 Tejas Mk1 + 18 Tejas Mk1 Trainers, which comes to ~ 12 Squadrons of Tejas Mk1/A aircrafts.

This is the correct summary. the 32 Mk1 will get upgrade to Mk1A std at mid-life.
And 200 Mk2.

[ashthor]

Will the 97 order include more trainers or will this 18 suffice? Or will Mk1A trainers will be ordered later.

[konaseema]

Will the 97 order include more trainers or will this 18 suffice? Or will Mk1A trainers will be ordered later.

If we go with the assumption of 2 trainers per squadron, then IAF may need 24 trainers for 12 squadrons of Tejas Mk1/A. With 18 on order, they will need 6 more of the trainers.

[Cyrano]

Ground attack with two pilots is just too risky these days. It needs to be AUAV or Remote UAV

The second person need not be another pilot, he could be a WSO!

WSOs aren't pilots? I always thought is a bit of a specialisation for already type trained pilots, like on sukhois for ex. WSOs are supposed to be capable of independently completing a mission or at least flying back to base and landing safely in case the flying pilot is incapacitated for whatever reason, no?

Plus, the 2 cockpits of the LCA trainer I suspect are not configured like the Su30 cockpits which have these differentiated roles as part of design parameters.

Why risk 2 pilots for GA when a scooter motor UAV like Garan or whatever can do the job in many GA situations, as it was amply demonstrated in Ukraine? Recent news reports mentioned that Iran has successfully tested such a UAV bomb of 2000 km range to destroy a naval target at sea.

I'd like to see us coming up with our own version of Hero motors powered UAVs that can be launched from any unmarked container truck/small ship. There is nothing Pakis or Cheenis can do against these tiny bug-gers !

[Rakesh]

Will the 97 order include more trainers or will this 18 suffice? Or will Mk1A trainers will be ordered later.

If we go with the assumption of 2 trainers per squadron, then IAF may need 24 trainers for 12 squadrons of Tejas Mk1/A. With 18 on order, they will need 6 more of the trainers.

Out of the 18 Mk1 trainers ----> 8 airframes will go to the two Mk1 Squadrons (No 18 and No 45) at four aircraft each. The remaining 10 airframes will be split between the four Mk1A squadrons (@ 2 aircraft each), with a remainder of two airframes.

Not sure how the breakdown is going to be in the 97, but what konaseema and Ramana-ji said would be an ideal scenario. So all 97 airframes would be single seater Mk1As. Thus additional twin seater Mk1 airframes will have to be ordered, to join the squadrons being re-raised with the type. A triple digit F404 order will be going to GE, for all these aircraft that will be manufactured.

Below is the most current F404 order (for the first batch of 83 aircraft);

• US $716 Million Contract for 99 F404-IN20 turbofans and support services was signed in August 2021.
URL, 19 Aug 2021

[ramana]

Trainers will be additional to the 97 Tejas Mk1A.

[titash]

Also - important to remember that due to local production (just as in the case of Jaguars), trainers & attrition replacements etc. can be made up silently with no impact to squadron strength

[titash]

All said and done, this is lungi-dance time.

The IAF is going to have a home-grown fleet of 220 highly safe/reliable fuel-sipping AESA-radar equipped BVR-capable birds capable of firing a plethora of Russian / Western / Desi munitions. These birds will be upgraded to work closely with loyal wingman drones & Ghatak UCAVs.

- Best in class CCMs: R-73, ASRAAM, Python5
- Best available to us BVR: Derby, Astra Mk1 (potentially an opening for I-Derby ER and Meteor down the line)
- El-Op pod + LGBs / Iron Bombs delivered with great accuracy
- The Astra Mk-2/Mk-3 will give a quantum leap in BVR performance when they come online in the next 5 years.
- The Rudram-1 and BrahMos-NG (when it comes) will greatly facilitate the tactical anti-radar/anti-AWACS roles.

The only thing missing is a decent subsonic anti-ship missile that can take out merchant ships. Don't know what the plans are on that front. Would be a decent replacement for the Jamnagar based Jags

The bird is too small to carry a supersonic anti-ship missile, and the lack of power/space also rules out the wild weasel role.

[Prem Kumar]

We have the NASM (SR, MR, LR) series of subsonic anti-ship missiles in the works. One was tested earlier this year. Can be carried by helicopters and I am sure, fighters as well

Smaller, cheaper, lighter and deadly

[ashishvikas]

^^ let Anti Ship role taken care by Su30 with BrahMos before Naval Rafale & TEDBF comes.

Tejas is already going to do many roles which was not expected when it was visualized as a Interceptor Mig21 replacement.