Challenge of China_ Political, Economic & Military Responses

bala · Post by **bala** » 29 Aug 2023 22:09

Tis simple: India responds with its own map. Aksai Chin is renamed as Ladakh, Shaksgam valley is Indian, PoK is marked Indian, Tibet is shown as independent country, whole of kailash is shown as Indian. The South China sea adjoining Vietnam, Cambodia, etc is Champa Sea.

China only understands mean behavior. In 1967, the army unleashed a costly death toll for PLA and after that peace prevailed for a long time. India has had enough talking, now it unilaterally needs to unleash an offensive which China can never recover (loss of face, etc, similar to what the Vietnamese did to china).

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 30 Aug 2023 23:37

You forgot Sinkiang and Taiwan

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 31 Aug 2023 15:55

Meantime the Chinks have laid claim to the entire South China Sea!

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/ ... -china-sea

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 31 Aug 2023 16:47

ramana wrote: ↑22 Aug 2023 22:30 Looks like a Chinese sub is in trouble and lost.

See:
https://www.newsweek.com/china-submarin ... ls-1821787
Has a Chinese Submarine Crashed in the Taiwan Strait? What We Know
ELLIE COOK ON 8/23/23
Unconfirmed reports have suggested a Chinese nuclear submarine has crashed in the Taiwan Strait—the body of water that separates mainland China from Taiwan—days after Beijing launched military drills around the island in a "stern warning" to Taipei and Washington.
Reports circulating online have claimed that one of China's Type 093, or "Shang-class," nuclear submarines had crashed in unknown circumstances at some point in the past few days. Some of the reports claimed the entire crew onboard the vessel had been killed.
Beijing considers Taiwan a breakaway part of mainland China, to be eventually reunited under central control. But Taipei, which has established a democratic government, has long asserted its independence from Beijing and attempted to align itself with Western allies.
There has been no official confirmation of a Chinese submarine running into difficulty in the contentious strait, and experts have been hesitant to speculate. The topic was not mentioned in a press briefing from China's Defense Ministry on Tuesday and has not appeared in any state news agencies' reports.
Officials in Taipei did not confirm the reports. In remarks carried by Taiwanese news outlets on Tuesday, a spokesperson for Taipei's Defense Ministry said during a regular press briefing that the island's military and government had not detected any evidence of a submarine crash and could not substantiate the reports.
Newsweek has reached out to the Chinese Defense Ministry for comment.
There has not yet been "any convincing evidence" to support the reports, naval expert and analyst, H I Sutton, said in a post to X, formerly known as Twitter, on Tuesday.
According to the London-based International Institute of Strategic Studies, China has six Shang-class, nuclear-powered, general-purpose attack submarines. "While it is not the most common submarine in the Chinese Navy's fleet, it is currently the most potent," Sutton wrote in 2020.
.......
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/new-subma ... a-chinese/
70 Killed In China’s Biggest Submarine Tragedy: Rewind 2003 As Rumors Swirl About PLA Navy Losing Its Nuke Sub
Sakshi Tiwari, August 27, 2023
Earlier this week, unverified reports started to surface on social media suggesting that a Chinese submarine had crashed on its transit through the Taiwan Strait. As soon as these reports were posted to social media, they went viral, triggering a widespread frenzy about the fate of the PLA Navy submarine.
Some of these reports, which started popping up on August 21, suggested that the submarine in question was the nuclear-powered Type-093 Shang Class submarine. Subsequently, another set of reports added to the hysteria by claiming that all the submarine crew members had died.
The Shang class is a family of Chinese second-generation nuclear-powered attack submarines (SSNs). The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLA) has six of these submarine types in service that make up the backbone of its submarine fleets. The more advanced Chinese subs like the Type 093A and Type 093B SSNs are upgraded versions of the Type 093.
However, in less than 24 hours, the Taiwan Ministry of National Defense (MND) dismissed the reports as untrue. The Taiwanese MND said on August 22 that there was no proof to support the rumor that a Chinese submarine had crashed in the Taiwan Strait.
.....
China’s 2003 Submarine Tragedy
Unlike the news of the recent crash, the Chinese submarine crash news of 2003 was very much authentic, and unlike the recent spell of rumors that overtook the internet, the submarine accident of 2003 took place in the Yellow Sea of China instead of the Taiwan Strait.
In early May 2003, the PLA Navy suffered its biggest peacetime military tragedy in Communist China’s history as an overloaded submarine operating off the nation’s northeast coast claimed the lives of 70 officers and crew members aboard.
In a brief report, the official New China News Agency at the time stated that the disaster took place “recently” in the Yellow Sea between the Shandong and Korean peninsulas. The vessel involved in the accident, the Navy Submarine No. 361, was a diesel-powered vessel engaged in a drill when the tragedy occurred.
The report noted that due to a mechanical malfunction, the 70 crew members on board died in the submarine accident. At the time, preliminary reports suggested that the vessel likely belonged to the East China Fleet.
Former Chinese president and chairman of the Central Military Commission of the time, Jiang Zemin, said, “The officers and sailors of 361 remembered their sacred duty entrusted by the Party and the People. They died on duty, sacrificed themselves for the country, and are great losses to the People’s Navy.”
After the disaster, the crippled submarine drifted for ten days because it was on a silent, no-contact exercise. The vessel was discovered by Chinese fishermen who noticed its periscope protruding above the surface on April 25, 2003. The crew were slumped over at their stations, seemingly dying before becoming aware of any issue. The incident occurred sometime in April, and was officially notified by Chinese officials on May 3.
.......
Gautam

bala · Post by **bala** » 31 Aug 2023 23:09

VKumar wrote: ↑30 Aug 2023 23:37 You forgot Sinkiang and Taiwan

Xinjiang - former turkistan which is part of the 3 Ts headache - Tibet, east Turkistan, Taiwan.
However I believe this to be right option - revisit "One China" across the world, i.e., all nations should re-examine this nonsense and oppose China. All nations should staple visa of people from the occupied Chinese territory like Tibet, Xingjiang, Manchuria, territory taken from Mongolia. South China sea should be renamed as indo-pacific sea or champa sea. India should take the offense (rather than defense) into Tibet territory.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Sep 2023 08:11

Can anyone please tell me the underlying reasons why the CCP is so desperate to make sure that an neutral India WRT, CCP is not possible?

Do they genuinely believe that, if Rahul Gandhi is PM of India. India will submit to the Chiniese?

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 01 Sep 2023 08:32

Pratyush wrote: ↑01 Sep 2023 08:11 Can anyone please tell me the underlying reasons why the CCP is so desperate to make sure that an neutral India WRT, CCP is not possible?

Do they genuinely believe that, if Rahul Gandhi is PM of India. India will submit to the Chiniese?

Either you are a vassal of China, or an enemy of China. Neutrality is not an option.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Sep 2023 09:24

In other words CCP is stupid?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Sep 2023 09:43

Cut copy paste (CCP)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Sep 2023 09:43

1932, this was the map of the far east.

bala · Post by **bala** » 01 Sep 2023 10:53

The 1932 map really nails all the lies of the CCCP and Emperor's haseen sapne. Tibet is much larger than what is marked today! Mongolia, Manchuria and Xinjiang take out large portions of Chinese land. Taiwan is clearly separate too. Taiwan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, India all object to the madcap CCCP department map. China is off its rocker and gone rogue in the world breathing fire and fury like a dragon.

The only solution left is for India to take out Tibet and free it from the clutches of PLA princelings who invaded the land. I feel the army of china is not what it is all hyped up to be. There is no real will of PLA soldiers to defend a land that they cannot claim as their original nation's home land. There is no incentive for them. Moreover they are the only child in their family. If push comes to shove they would turn tail and run back home and the greeting home PLA will mow them down.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Sep 2023 12:51

Pratyush wrote: ↑01 Sep 2023 09:24 In other words CCP is stupid?

That stupidity comes from extreme arrogance.

They are making not only an enemy out of every country on the periphery but also making these countries take a common stand. Like Philippines, Cambodia & Malaysia coordinating some of their earlier and continuing actions under UNCLOS.

Philippines joins Malaysia, India in rejecting new Chinese map over disputed territories - Straits Times

Since XJP took over power, the border coercion and aggression have sharpened. We had the unusual spectacle of Li Keqiang & XJP visit us when PLA was attacking/aggressing us simultaneously. Some felt that it was a rogue WTC that showed PLA was not under XJP's complete control. No, that wasn't correct. In c. 2013, XJP had simultaneosuly ordered the map-making unit to add an extra dash to the nine dashes in the Indo-China Sea maps in order to include the Senkakus and Taiwan. So,these have been going according to a plan by XJP.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Sep 2023 13:26

Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts.

Ambassador Lando Mollari of the Centari Republic, from the TV series Babylon 5.

This is an accurate discription of the current day CCP.

bala · Post by **bala** » 01 Sep 2023 20:33

An analysis of PLA weakness by Lt. Gen P. R. Shankar (retd)

sudarshan · Post by **sudarshan** » 01 Sep 2023 21:43

Pratyush wrote: ↑01 Sep 2023 09:24 In other words CCP is stupid?

It's not just the CCP. China has always been like that, politically. That's literally what "middle kingdom" is all about.

About the 1932 map - Bernier, in the 1600's, mentions in his memoirs that the geographical extent of India (then) was twice that of China. India has lost landmass since then, while China has forcibly acquired it.

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 02 Sep 2023 05:06

I hope it is ok to paste this here. I found my list of Chinese place names that I had used back in the day for research. Using the chinese terms while googling will show you chinese sources and then google translate can help one understand most of it.

I hope young trainees with time and interest can use this to carry out some primary research using Chinese sources.

Chinese toponyms

天文点 Tianwendian, Chinese border post in Chip Chap river valley, set up in 1959

天南河谷 Tiannan hegu Raki Nalla Valley

天南河 Tiannan he, Raki Nalla

神仙湾 Shenxianwan (sanctuary cove) Shenxianwan border post at the Karakoram Pass is 5,265 meters above sea level

德普桑平地 Depusang pingdi Depsang plain

巴里加斯 Balijiasi, Demchok village

加勒万河谷 Jialewan hegu, Galwan valley

曼冬错 màndōngcuò, Spanggur Tso

羌臣摩河 qiāngchénmó hé, Chang Chenmo River or Changchenmo River is a tributary of the Shyok River,[

班公湖 bāngōng hú, Pangong Tso / lake

峡谷 xiágǔ canyon (?)

什约克河 shényuēkè hé, Shyok river

阿克赛钦 ākèsài qīn Aksai chin

领土 lǐngtǔ Territory

大桥 dàqiáo, bridge

印度 yindu India

龙象边境的石头大战 lóng xiàng biānjìng de shítou dàzhàn stone war on the border between the dragon and elephant

边境 biānjìng border

河口 hékǒu, river mouth ~ estuary

斗拉特别奥里地 dòulātè bié àolǐdì Daulat Beg Oldi

空喀山口 Kōng kā shānkǒu, Kongka La, Kongka Pass

中印边界问题 zhōng yìn biānjiè wèntí, Sino-Indian boundary problem

支流 zhīliú, tributary

Mods please excuse if this should go elsewhere

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Sep 2023 06:57

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 04 Sep 2023 17:30

https://www.wionews.com/videos/china- ... -631826

China claiming Russian territory as well!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Sep 2023 00:56

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Sep 2023 04:55

https://amp.scmp.com/week-asia/politics ... -influence

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Sep 2023 06:52

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 05 Sep 2023 07:04

^ it's from scmp , a chicom mouthpiece . So the Rona dhona is expected .

Under Xi’s leadership, China has stressed the need to further develop ties with the Global South through the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative and the Global Civilisation Initiative. the three initiatives – aimed at providing an alternative to the West’s rules-based international order – intend to reshape the global governance agenda in multilateral forums and project Beijing’s influence on to the developing world

The most important thing in the article is the name of "experts" it quotes . Basically identifies them as chicom entities.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Sep 2023 07:14

........

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Sep 2023 07:41

NRaO, I am trying to keep the level of discussion in the China threads high. Urge you not to use idioms in future.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Sep 2023 07:55

sounds good. sorry

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 07 Sep 2023 19:25

https://www.deccanherald.com/business/a ... bs-2677006
Looks like things are moving at rapid pace.
Eleven says no to Iphone and 194 billion wiped off in two days.
Is this response a combination of replies to India(looking for regime change with a compliant pappu at the helm)/Unkil(given the quad and Taiwan issue)/Predatory Western Buisness houses(whos primare care is making $$$).
And this will probaly over shawdow anything significant at G20!! dont you think(meaning more such Chinese moves to hit Western business where it hurts)

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 08 Sep 2023 16:12

Ha ha ! Xi the new Dimmy has unveiled his grand plan to attract unprecedented levels of FDI

Market valuations are temporary. Like I commented in the other China thread, CCP is hell bent to reacquire the "unreliable communist dictatorship" label it fought decades to mask.

Now not just apple, many others also have a good reason to re-assess if China is still the hyped market opportunity and if new investments are expansions are justified.

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 08 Sep 2023 16:24

Cyranoji
They have added Qualcom to the hit list.
Huawei has decided to use chinese chips/processor
More interesting times

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Sep 2023 22:55

Pratyush wrote: ↑01 Sep 2023 08:11 Can anyone please tell me the underlying reasons why the CCP is so desperate to make sure that a neutral India WRT, CCP is not possible?

Do they genuinely believe that, if Rahul Gandhi is PM of India. India will submit to the Chinese?

Its good you asked. The CCP had signed the 2008 Beijing Accord with Congress part. The contents have not been revealed except on talk shows.
The net result is the Indian SME and MSME sectors along with Pharma API have been devastated and the cumulative trade deficit with China as of 2020 was $550B. Now we saw this type of transfer only during East India Company.
In my view, the 2008 Beijing Accord was similar in impact to the Jahangir giving Mughali firman to EIC to carry on near monopoly trade in India.
So yes China believes if RaGa is the PM he will submit to China.

BTW, if you read what Nirupama Rao Menon, a DIEnasty hack has written in her book on the Himalayas, she says Nehru could not have done better than to give away Aksai Chin and got whacked even after that. And India should move on from the 1962 debacle.
In my view, the 2008 Beijing Accord was a Congress move on from the 1962 debacle.
Incidentally, Nirupama Rao was the Indian Ambassador to China during that period!!!

Also, read the bokwas by Harsh Pant and another author about two tigers can't occupy a mountain top.
Well one of them is a lizard pretending to be a dragon and pumped up by the US.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Sep 2023 00:53

@Chellaney

In China's one-man rule, the premier is just a loyal political lieutenant of the president. Yet, before Modi began holding meetings with Xi since 2014, India's summit meetings with China were with its premier. For example, then-Prime Minister Manmohan Singh would hold summit meetings with the Chinese premier.

China's new premier, Li Qiang, is currently in New Delhi. And Modi has no plan for a formal bilateral meeting with him. But Modi has scheduled bilateral meetings with more than 15 other leaders attending the G20 summit.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 09 Sep 2023 01:01

Which is exactly what the protocol requires, perhaps Modi will drop by graciously and speak a few minutes with the Premier. Modi is known not to slight people needlessly and is known to have excellent interpersonal skills. Imagine Li and Xi having different opinions of Modi

bala · Post by **bala** » 09 Sep 2023 10:19

Chinese ambitions, G20 and India's strategy by Iqbal Chand Malhotra.

China built 2 Dams in POK, Gilgit. The power generated is being sent to Xinjiang. Indus river is the lifeline of Pak. China has a shortage of water especially in northern china. Hurricane rain water is now flooding other areas of China. Xinjiang is being primed for semiconductor manufacture, which requires power and water.

Aksai Chin was an area for uranium mining by the Soviets. For the Soviets access to Aksai Chin’s uranium ores and transporting them by road to their uranium extraction plant in Khojand in Tajikistan, was the overriding concern. They needed the Chinese government, to conceal this secret and also become a third party and act as a buffer between them and the Muslim insurgents in Sinkiang. Aksai Chin is home to the Huoshaoyun lead-zinc mine, Asia's largest metals deposit and the world's seventh largest, with recoverable reserves of 18.87 million tons of high-grade zinc and lead. The British necessity to continue spying on Soviet nuclear activities in Soviet Kazakhstan and Sinkiang from Gilgit made it imperative for it to control Gilgit Agency. The kashmir problem for India is a natural outcome of such machinations of the Britshits.

BRICS is now becoming China bloc. South Africa already gave a medal to Emperor Eleven. Russia is junior partner. That leaves Brazil and India/Bharat. Now other nations are being admitted like Iran. China is making BRICS as its own very similar to SCO which has Pak in it. QUAD is opposed to China, but Japan, Aus, US are close buddies and India is the outsider.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 09 Sep 2023 11:47

Cyrano wrote: ↑09 Sep 2023 01:01 Which is exactly what the protocol requires, perhaps Modi will drop by graciously and speak a few minutes with the Premier. Modi is known not to slight people needlessly and is known to have excellent interpersonal skills. Imagine Li and Xi having different opinions of Modi

Looks like PM read your post and took it to heart. He welcomed Li quite warmly at Bharat Mandapam - initially it was formal but quickly became friendly, in contrast to the stiff welcomes for Erdogan and Lavrov. Li is going to be confused, especially when he sees the kind of friendships PM enjoys with the rest of the world leaders.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 09 Sep 2023 12:18

Bala saar,
Based on your summary, Iqbal Chand's views on BRICS doesn't seem like an accurate reading at all.

I've come across others saying Bharat didn't want BRICS expansion. Why wouldn't India want that? We have excellent relations with Saudi, UAE, Argentina (some talk of even selling LCAs to them), Egypt (EAM visit + RDay guest + talks of arms sales), Iran (ups and downs, but all the more reason for Bharat to draw them close), Ethiopia (IoR, other side of Suez). Turkey has been kept out.

SCO has always been a pointless organisation, I was surprised Bharat accepted to join, perhaps NaMo believes keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. With BRICS expansion, its the SCO that becomes less relevant.

The BRICS reserve currency is not happening. There is too much economic diversity between members. Argentina, Egypt are too weak, China is only next to US in currency scamming and Yuan can be revalued at will. Ruble has its own ups and downs and Ukr war is not ending anytime soon. So at what exchange rate will each of them AND ALL OTHERS agree to peg to the common currency? De-dollarisation is not an end in itself. We need no one's permission to trade with other countries using own currencies. The only country that has practically no $ reserves and is pushing this is Russia. China is holding huge $ reserves and bonds, over a Trillion $. They are slowly dumping them and buying gold. If they dump too fast then dollar will tank and devalue the Yuan as well. China playing along is a dumb move to "stand up" against US pressure.

India will watch its friends and enemies like a hawk across the various multilateral orgs its a part of, and wont let anyone say or promise something in one setting and do something else in another.

Don't know all that stuff about Uranium & Aksai Hind, need to check it out.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 09 Sep 2023 12:54

Yensoy saar,
You flatter me but its the other way round, I've learned to read Modi ji's moves better

Erdogan getting minimum reception is to be expected.

Lavrov getting a cold reception is perhaps due to Russia jumping the gun and printing nominal 100 unit notes of some imaginary BRICS currency in their press and gifting it to SA president Ramaphosa - that must have angered him.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Sep 2023 14:21

சீனாவின் அடங்காத ஆக்கிரமிப்புத் தாகம்(The Insatiable Thirst for Aggression by China) - Dinamani (Tamil)

By YT. Sorry only in Tamil as of now. If Indian Express publishes the English version, will update this post.

bala · Post by **bala** » 10 Sep 2023 10:19

Unstable adversaries and contours of India'a security make over

Cyrano, just watch this YT on some comments on BRICS by the Lt. Gens. There is some concern about China cornering BRICS with Russia on its side and Iran will quickly toe the line. Bharat needs to keep a wary eye on shenanigans that China is doing behind the scenes. Also the sudden degradation of neighbor next door is worrying. They will do something nasty towards India/Bharat simply to drag down everyone and China will be right there to back them. Tis some worry lines on the planners in Bharat.

sanman · Post by **sanman** » 11 Sep 2023 07:45

Xi seems to be keep signaling an intention to fight

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Sep 2023 09:33

The new map of borders and areas around China - Indian Express
The article with the below map.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Sep 2023 10:39

SSS, I think we need an all points seminar on "What does India know about China?"
We can rely on other sources.
If you were a decision maker what would you like to know about China?
Give me a 1-to n list of things. Please consider it as a serious request.

ramana