Indian Light Tank: News & Discussion

[bala]

it is some combination of politicians, services, and bureaucracy.

The inertia in-built by politicians, services, and bureaucracy is stunting true growth in many areas of India. They are the "tamas" in the system. Sometimes, people have taken initiative on their own and made things happen. It is true that India sometimes generates such individuals. Take as example Train 18 or Vande Bharat. GM of ICF, Sudanshu Mani put a team of internal people within ICF (there cannot be a more moribund org than ICF!) to design Train 18 and deliver it in a short period of time. Talent exists within but is not being nurtured by politicians, services, and bureaucracy. As soon as Mani demonstrated such capability, the electrical engg side of IR became jealous and tried to frame Sudanshu Mani. In aircraft engines, without a testbed sanction by the babus, India is handicapped by running to Russia every now and then for tests. How myopic. Bhai log money is no more an issue in India. We had the same issue with rocket engines, Dr. Nambi Narayanan had to test the Vikas engine in France, now we have Mahendragiri test site for rocket engine testing. IC engines are relatively easy to master. Many desis are employed by Cummins (my Purdue graduated relative works for them) in US. IITs especially IIT-M has a strong IC engine research capability. Putting together a mission mode project for engines like the tank engine is highly doable and achievable in a short period of time within India. But the cabal of politicians, services, and bureaucracy are preventing such a feat.

[Manish_P]

Do private indian automobile companies design and manufacture their own engines?

IIRC most of them, if not all, use engines manufactured in India but using patented designs from non-indian companies. Ford, Fiat, Renault, AVL, Toyota etc

[drnayar]

it is some combination of politicians, services, and bureaucracy.

The inertia in-built by politicians, services, and bureaucracy is stunting true growth in many areas of India. They are the "tamas" in the system. Sometimes, people have taken initiative on their own and made things happen. It is true that India sometimes generates such individuals. Take as example Train 18 or Vande Bharat. GM of ICF, Sudanshu Mani put a team of internal people within ICF (there cannot be a more moribund org than ICF!) to design Train 18 and deliver it in a short period of time. Talent exists within but is not being nurtured by politicians, services, and bureaucracy. As soon as Mani demonstrated such capability, the electrical engg side of IR became jealous and tried to frame Sudanshu Mani. In aircraft engines, without a testbed sanction by the babus, India is handicapped by running to Russia every now and then for tests. How myopic. Bhai log money is no more an issue in India. We had the same issue with rocket engines, Dr. Nambi Narayanan had to test the Vikas engine in France, now we have Mahendragiri test site for rocket engine testing. IC engines are relatively easy to master. Many desis are employed by Cummins (my Purdue graduated relative works for them) in US. IITs especially IIT-M has a strong IC engine research capability. Putting together a mission mode project for engines like the tank engine is highly doable and achievable in a short period of time within India. But the cabal of politicians, services, and bureaucracy are preventing such a feat.

maybe like Abdul Kalam we need project managers who are technocrats as well.. in each field.. find them and nurture them . China does it.. to the extent they are poached from overseas countries

[Prem Kumar]

Yes, we all know the lethargy of the babu, services mix

But this goes beyond that. Our private industry is also happy doing screwdriver-giri. It takes a top-down push in the form of PLIs to make them take Atmanirbhar seriously - otherwise, most of them have the baniya lets-mark-it-up mentality. Trader-vs-Innovator mindset.

The mission-mode should not just be restricted to defense items but commercial ones too. They will feed each other, in due course of time

[ramana]

What is the engine size or model number ?
None of the report has that info.

I should have done my own research instead of relying on our members!!!

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/land ... ight-tank/

Its 800 bhp MTU engine was the first choice.

BTW the fly in the ointment is that MTU is owned by Rolls Royce!!!!
No wonder Perfidious Albion hiding behind foolish Germans.

https://thedefencespace.com/2023/04/15/ ... ight-tank/

I was hoping such research is done to help understand the issues and not the superficial stuff posted above.
No wonder even the Chinese are complaining BRF is losing its edge.

This could be the MTU engine already used for Scout AFV.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/151 ... le-torque/

Looks like IA messed up and chose British goods.

[NRao]

^^^^^

Sorry, could not resist. Apologies.

Nothing is higher or more practical than Swadharma and Atmanirbhar.

______________________________________

On a side note, tell me one nation that is considered to be an expert in "engines" that is not involved in the current the global turmoil.

Bharat cannot depend on any of these nations - none. At some point in time, they will have to supply their own troops at the expense of Bharat.

[pravula]

It’s not just HP, but also size/density and duty cycle that play an important part. Some of that info would be closely held and non open source. But yeah, I agree that this would be well within our industry’s R&D capabilities

[Pratyush]

The more important questions

1) what happened to the 600 hp engine that CVRDE was developing world Ashok Leyland?

2) if an 800 hp engine was really required, why was this not communicated to the CVRDE and industry at large at the beginning of the project.

[bala]

The weakness in engines is across the board. We don't have (yet) an aircraft engine. The ones who have them in the world started with a base working BMW aircraft engine of the Germans - USA, Russia, France even UK (though frank whittle dabbled in some version) - as spoils of WW II. India has the manik engine powering small drones and a cruise missile. For Helos we use the French engine. Kaveri engine is being tested but yet to fly in an aircraft.

In IC engines we still import foreign maal. Car companies like Mahindra, Tata have their own. In the defence sector for Tanks, ships we have imports. Railways also has so many imported stuff for the power plant, some made on tech transfer basis. The only denial area in which India has made headway is Nuclear and Space. The Arihant nuke submarine has a BARC nuclear engine albeit lower specs. Space uses solid and liquid engines all created in India, though the liquid one has had some help from France. ISRO is trying to create kerosene, LOX and methane, LOX engines. The launch vehicle for ISRO is still under powered and hence we take lower weight payloads and employ circuitous paths for achieving the destination. Both in space and nuclear we are at the lower spectrum of power compared to the rest of the world. This is again due to the level of funding by the babus, who love money pinching and pursuing false economics.

Our Indian babus seem allergic to funding a dedicated India team to get a truly indigenous working engine that can supplant all the imports.

[ramana]

The more important questions

1) what happened to the 600 hp engine that CVRDE was developing world Ashok Leyland?

2) if an 800 hp engine was really required, why was this not communicated to the CVRDE and industry at large at the beginning of the project.

1) Still going on.
2) I think they wanted MTU and settled for Cummins.

I saw a headline that India told Cummins to make the engine in India.

[chetak]

The more important questions

1) what happened to the 600 hp engine that CVRDE was developing world Ashok Leyland?

2) if an 800 hp engine was really required, why was this not communicated to the CVRDE and industry at large at the beginning of the project.

1) Still going on.
2) I think they wanted MTU and settled for Cummins.

I saw a headline that India told Cummins to make the engine in India.

panwalla input

the MTU is a better engine, however....

the huns were hesitant about supplying the MTU engines because they were to go on a tank that India would use against the cheenis whom the huns do not wish to offend.

the issue was delayed because it went through a lot of internal discussion in the hun govt circles before they agreed but it was already too late because India was not sure that the huns would keep the supply chain actively going even if India were to actually use the tank against the cheen

looks like there are multiple sources for the cummins engine support that are outside the amriki stranglehold/sanctions regime


hence the cummins option


for some reason, the long standing hatred of the huns for India and Indians seem to only increase with each passing year. Their eagerness to support the pakis under all circumstances indicates, at least to India, that some sort of collective psychological disturbance may be in play.

Is it because they were forced to concede and acknowledge that there was no aryan master race running around in tutus, as they had once fondly imagined themselves to be for some centuries past..

or is it because after they got their tails waxed comprehensively in the two WWs, and have no hope in hell of making it to the UNSC as a permanent veto empowered member with a seat at the highest table, while India seems to be inching slowly but surely in that general direction

or is it because "deutschland, deutschland über alles" is just a faint and faded memory, and what resonates there are peans to uber and ola.

Their vividly demonstrated civilizationally ingrained capacity for unimaginably extreme cruelty against fellow humans outstrips even those of the vilest of the vile jihadis and currently this ingrained and egregious characteristic lies dormant just below their veneer of a carefully cultivated skin of modern respectability and pacifism

[Pratyush]

the huns were hesitant about supplying the MTU engines because they were to go on a tank that India would use against the cheenis whom the huns do not wish to offend.

The Germans are not supplying MTU engine for PRC build submarines. That is more offensive to PRC then supplying engines for Indian light tanks.

[bala]

Alpha Defense is saying that Zorawar Light Tank has rolled out and 100 hrs of testing has occurred.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-qaCavFZwI

so is Indian defense analysis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HSd_0klwt4

[Pratyush]

https://bharatshakti.in/light-tanks-wil ... rmy-chief/

"Light Tanks Will Be Fielded By April-May,” Says Army Chief

January 15, 2024

What's the bloody point, that L&T will make 59, and then the Indian army will conduct the circus of global procurement for a vehicle that is available in the country.

Wasting countless rupees and precious time in the excercise.

[Prem Kumar]

Absolute rot. It shows that, the recent mega-AONs notwithstanding, the import lobby is growing more powerful

They have made a mockery of Made-in-India/Atmanirbhar. The recent re-badging of the Hermes by Adani & the cancellation of Tapas as a mission-mode program all point to only 1 fact: RM Rajnath Singh is clueless about what is truly Make in India (vs) screwdrivergiri

We might as well scrap the stupid Make-1, Make-2 programs if they are going to be abused this way

Coming to this Light Tank, what's the point of R&D and the development of a light tank in a record 2 years timeframe, if, after a platry 59 tanks, the IA is going to RFP the fc&* out of it? Its clear that the IA leadership has no intent to fight any war, let alone a 2.5 front one

PM Modi has a lot on his hands, but he needs to get personally involved and fire a lot of the gravy-train freeloaders

[Prem Kumar]

You want to hear your blood boil. Read this

We have a total of 354 light tanks for which the AoN (Acceptance of Necessity) has been given to us. It is under two routes – one is the design and development route, in which the DRDO, alongside the industry partner, is working on 59 tanks, and there is another 295, which is under the ‘Make I’ category which will be partially funded by the government as well as development partners. So, the first DRDO product will be fielded by April-May this year”

.....

“In the second route, the EoI (Expression of Interest) has received a good response from the industry that is currently under evaluation, then we will put out an RFP (Request for Proposal) and identify two development partners, maybe in another two-and-half years we will have a product,” informed Army Chief.

So, they have a working, indigenous product fielded in April-May. But will restrict it to an order of 59, send out an EOI for a different product, that MAY be ready in 2 - 2.5 years

Sorry to say this, but I don't trust the IA Leadership to win wars for us. Its the humble jawan & the officer that pulls our asses out of the fire each time. The top leadership is dumb and/or corrupt. Nothing else can explain this buffoonery

[hemant_sai]

@premkumar you are right, problem here is we have RM who is clueless.
Respected RM is really not suitable for this position but God knows why Modi is failing to understand this.
If RM is not changed after 2024 elections,
We should not keep high expectations going ahead.

Tejas mk2 fiasco is biggest testimony that RM is not only clueless but also he has no interest in this portfolio.

[srai]

IA mentality:

Indian design & developed -> 59 units
Foreign licensed produced -> 295 units

Enough said …

[Rakesh]

With an eye on Ladakh, DRDO begins testing new light tank
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2024/01/with ... sting.html
16 Jan 2024

[sanjayc]

With an eye on Ladakh, DRDO begins testing new light tank
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2024/01/with ... sting.html
16 Jan 2024

Reading the article, it is clear that a home-grown alternative existed for all components of the tank, but the first instinct was to try to import. Only when the import was denied did DRDO opt for indigenous option (that was always there). Modi needs to be come down heavily on these import bahadurs

[bala]

Per Shooklaw article, the Chinese ZTQ-15 light tank and artillery, intruded into Indian territory in Ladakh. This IMO is a serious lapse of intelligence gathering on your opponent. What were the IA establishment doing as far as sizing up the enemy. We can't have these last minute dash to get a light tank to tackle the high altitude terrain. Someone should have thought about such a lacunae during war or least had forward intelligence on what the chinese were upto. This is serious. You can't be in the business of trying to get heavy T-72, T-90 at altitude because the opponents have fielded a light tank at heights. Even artillery is lagging behind, highly maneuverable light guns deployable at heights is also missing in the inventory. These last minute, almost impossible missions are hoodwinking the public, when the job for IA is proper thinking and proper procurement to equip the ordinary jawan to fight with appropriate tools.

The L&T effort once again shows India'a weakness in engines, e.g. 1,000 Horse Power (HP) Norinco engines that Chinese have. We are still looking at german and US Cummins engines. I think it is time for MOD to have a national mission to create engines of Indian origin - IA, IN and IAF all are importing videshi maal for engines.

[Prem Kumar]

The IA Leadership has its head in the sand like an ostrich. Nothing has changed in the last 60 years

When they thought the Pakis would induct Abrams, they drew up a hasty GSQR for the Arjun. When the Abrams threat disappeared, they dropped Arjun and kept importing tin-cans

Even though we were the first ones to deploy Light Tanks to Ladakh in 1962 and it was very successful, ZERO lessons were learnt from our own experience!. Once again, as a knee-jerk reaction to the Chinese ZTQ-15s, our top brass woke up and started the Zorawar project.

Now that there seems to be a stalemate and they think that the immediate threat of war has abated, its back to import-bahaduri again. Does the IA Chief think that the Chinese will wait 6 years before all our light tanks are inducted?

For the longest time, the IA Chiefs did not even think of China as an impending military threat! That's why, like Kargil, they were caught napping in Galwan

Like I said above, the IA Leadership does not prepare for war. They are incapable of fighting any serious war beyond a border skirmish. The best they will do is offer up jawans & officers as cannon fodder, while the Generals go begging to the US, the MEA & the PMO to come up with a diplomatic solution. Then go back & write books about 25th generation warfare

Modi will not solve this problem with incrementalism. There is an institutional rot in thinking, in promotions & in ideology. It can only be solved by a rip-and-replace approach. But knowing him, he will continue to only snip away at the problem rather than do anything dramatic. So, this joke will continue for the foreseeable future

[Rakesh]

India prepares Zorawar light tank to confront China in Himalayan region
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense ... egion.html
17 January 2024

[Nikhil_Naya]

A genuine question - the Light Tank will of course be a cheaper vehicle to procure than a Medium or Large MBT. Apparently will have a decent armour suite and an engine which is designed to work in the hot/high conditions.

1 - How difficult will it be to adapt such a tank to 'desert'/ jungle warfare
2 - Will countries like Argentina/Phillipines/ Armenia / African countries etc benefit from such a tank using the old soviet doctrine of ' power in numbers' - I am considering that for the price of two MBT's we could probably field 3 Light tanks?
3 - With advanced armour, something like the Trophy system , and a couple of mounted rockets will this make a good sell for countries which need replacement for the older T series and equivalent tanks?

Will it make sense then for L&T, Tata, Kalyani, AL etc to pitch these tanks - irrespective of the IA orders - to such countries and break even on costs?

[Pratyush]

A genuine question - the Light Tank will of course be a cheaper vehicle to procure than a Medium or Large MBT. Apparently will have a decent armour suite and an engine which is designed to work in the hot/high conditions.

1 - How difficult will it be to adapt such a tank to 'desert'/ jungle warfare

Not difficult at all.

Will countries like Argentina/Phillipines/ Armenia / African countries etc benefit from such a tank using the old soviet doctrine of ' power in numbers' - I am considering that for the price of two MBT's we could probably field 3 Light tanks?

Yes, to part one of the question, the Japanese have a wheeled vehicle performing the the role you have in mind. The Indonasians and Turks have jointly developed a light tank for similar reasons.

WRT, the second part, the vehicle is not going to be that much cheaper to procure as opposed to a full sized tank. It may be cheaper to sustain and operate. But in today's world, manpower is the bigger concern. Rather than the upfront procurement costs.

With advanced armour, something like the Trophy system , and a couple of mounted rockets will this make a good sell for countries which need replacement for the older T series and equivalent tanks?

Pre Ukraine war, my thoughts were in the same direction. However, with lethality of the modern battlefield, I am not sure that a light vehicle that is not even protected against 30 mm rounds, is going to cut it, even when equipped with active protection systems.

There is an ongoing study on the future combat vehicle. The German varient of the study is looking into a family of vehicles performing different roles, they seem to think that a vehicle of 50 tons class and armed 120 mm gun will be enough for the future battlefield.

Will it make sense then for L&T, Tata, Kalyani, AL etc to pitch these tanks - irrespective of the IA orders - to such countries and break even on costs?

Hell yeah.

[Manish_P]

Won't addition of more armor & APS systems add weight?

The current Gen tanks became heavy due to need for more protection against bigger caliber anti-tank guns, more powerful ATGMs (including hand held and light vehicle mounted ones) and to a lesser extent due to APS and remotely crewed weapon mounts..

[srai]

Whatever size and weight, the tank vehicles require both. anti-drone protection and APS against anti-tank missiles.

Modular add-on armor options for operational flexibility, especially in urban environments.

[mody]

The MTU engine that India wants is a 1,000HP engine. However, the German govt delayed the go ahead for the supply of the engine leading to a long delay. DRDO then opted for the Cummins 750HP engine. The engine is also made or assembled in India. The Germans did give the go ahead, once the Cummins engine was opted for, but it was too late by then. For the final production variant DRDO/L&T may still opt for the MTU engine if higher HP is required.

Engines of all type have been a problem for India since a long time. Only now DRDO/CVRDE are working on engines for armoured vehicles.
The following engines are available in India or are in the pipeline:

1). 720-780HP engine for T-72 tanks. Now completely manufactured in India.
2). 1,000 HP engine of the T-90S tanks. Now completely manufactured in India. Mostly some of the T-72 tanks will be upgraded with this engine.
3). 280-350HP engine of the BMP-2. Now completely manufactured in India
4). 600HP engine for FICV. Currently under development/testing.
5). 1,500 HP engine for Arjun MK1A/FMBT project. Reportedly this will be lighter than the existing 1,400 HP MTU-838 engine of the Arjun MK1 tanks. Though this would not be surprising, as the MTU-838 engine is obsolete and was superseded by the MTU-883 1,500-1,800 HP engine more than 20 years ago. The engine prototypes are ready and currently in internal testing. I guess once this engine is ready the production of the 118 units of Arjun MK1A will progress faster.

Apart from just the HP, the form factor, weight and suitability of mating with the required gearbox, all govern the choice of the engine. This might be the reason that the 1,000HP V92S engine of the T-90S tanks cannot be used for the light tank project.
The problem for India is that developing a new 1,000HP engine for only 350 tanks would not be economical. Companies like Cummins and MTU make a range of engines for many different applications and they can develop a whole range much more easily.

[Rakesh]

India Tests New 'Zorawar Light Tank' Amid Standoff With China

[sanjayc]

Chinese deploy while Indians test (and keep testing and testing)