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by ManishH
27 Sep 2012 15:35
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

These people seem to be suggesting that the Indian text editors were so disingenuous that they did not know about the oral transmission which preserves the meter exactly, nor indeed the pratishakhya whose rules back up the oral transmission . ... What is most amazing is that the realization of this...
by ManishH
15 Sep 2012 09:37
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

What understanding of phonetics are you referring to ? I am sorry, now I am starting to get irritated a little because it seems you don't read. Other than the pratishakhya and the preserved RV sounds, which language has a phonetic text and a preserved oral record of similar antiquity ? I have alrea...
by ManishH
15 Sep 2012 09:10
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

I'd like to see verbatim quotes of Thieme. Thanks for patience. Claim #1 specially runs contrary to what is mentioned in this book "A History of Zoroastrianism: The Early Period" By Mary Boyce In Vendidād, these two beings are repudiated together as Indrem ... Nanhaitīm Wow, talk about mi...
by ManishH
15 Sep 2012 08:05
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

This question is directly for ManishH ji : (1) Are you aware of any "academic" criticism of the "sound change" laws? Yes. The section 4. chapter on sound change in Hock, "Language History, Language Change and Language Relationship" has detailed points on arguments agai...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 20:16
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Manish garu, I know you talked about how linguistics studies depend on archeology and other studies. But first: 1. Are there any validation studies done to say that phonetic changes and linguistic theories are solid and are based on rigor? No not the voice tracts. Voice tracts sound origination is ...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 19:08
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

According to this article , the brahmin population is 5.6 crore in India. And you have identified a dozen persons whose opinions run counter to yours, so you term them traitors. So 12 / 5,60,00,000 = "overwhelming majority" as seen in this statement you made earlier : Overall, the overwhel...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 18:37
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

The key point is that Nasatianna is plural. I agree. The next point is that the Avesta only has a singular Nasatya (cognate) while the Rig Veda has both one and two(plural). E.g., Thieme writes "a single Nasatya is known to the RV also (4.3.6 ), and moreover, the RV once forms a dual dvandva I...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 17:59
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

The same "PIE linguistics" that was made to be so arbitrary that it allowed pretty much any interpretation that rejects a Sanskrit proto-language, can now also be used to prove exactly the opposite. That would hurt, wouldn't it, ManishH ? Most of your anger is due to assuming that Linguis...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 17:32
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

Carl-ji. When someone says "majority" of Brahmins being traitors, that is labelling the entire community. Of course. I don't think B ji meant that. He has explicitly confessed that there was some rhetoric involved there. A dozen odd list of 'traitors' (even if I blindly accept them to be ...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 16:21
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

ManishH: you mentioned universal sound-change laws & non-universal ones. Can you point out some examples of universal ones? I believe "palatization in the presence of front vowels" is one, based on your comment. I see that there are many sound change laws like Metathesis, Dissimilatio...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 14:20
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

ManishH: more questions as a follow-up to my earlier post. This is regarding the nature of the sound law changes. Questions below refer to only the universal laws 1) Consistency : are the set of universal laws internally consistent? For example: are there laws which could potentially contradict eac...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 14:01
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

You write as though these two are totally equivalent, credible, and correct concepts. However, the former is a well-known principle attested innumerable times in Sanskrit grammar by authors over more than 3 millennia. The latter is just a nonsensical speculation related to a nonexistent language. D...
by ManishH
14 Sep 2012 11:19
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

[...] articulation (called palatalization with front vowels)[..] What about Vedic words like Vac which becomes Vak? In sanskrit, c>k is standard sandhi rule wherein c>k before a consonant suffix but remains unchanged before a vowel suffix. eg. vāgbhyām (Inst du) but vācam (Acc sing). The nominative...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 19:09
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

RajeshA wrote:SS Misra has definitely written about it, but I can't really find any online version of the book! Misra ji really should put this book online! I also don't know how to contact the gentleman!


Dr. Misra is no more. You'll have to look for it in a library.
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 18:26
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Dubeyji you are knowledge-able about prātiśākhyā. So can you tell me that if prātiśākhyā's gave unambiguous direction on how to articulate vedic sounds and they are immutable original sounds, 0. Why do even trained vedic paṇḍit-s make the mistaken articulation (called palatalization with front vowel...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 18:02
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

When we talk about a PIE tree (or any reconstruction for that matter), the one thing I am skeptical about is the Neogrammarian dictum of "sound laws have no exceptions." As I pointed out in yesterday's Wikipedia article, there are several known exceptions. So, this dictum did fail the tes...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 16:35
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

In an earlier conversation ManishH claimed that the process of palataliztion led to the conversion of Greek equus to ashwa and Greek kleos to sravas in Sanskrit. Again you are putting a wrong claim into my mouth. I have said that PIE (not Greek) velars underwent palatalization in presence of front ...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 13:34
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

B-ji: apologies if I missed your question earlier and thanks for repeating it. Trying to do best with limited time ... (1) if sound change laws are so detrministic and unidirectional - why could there be original/beginning words in exactly opposite direction to that what would be expected by your so...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 11:43
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

ManishH, Still patiently waiting for an answer - the Paul Thieme article argues that the presence of Varuna and dual Nasatyas in the Mitanni treaty makes it Vedic or post-Vedic. This contradicts the phonetic argument. What is your response to that? Since you have not given the exact reference to th...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 09:51
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

nakul ji, Nobody is talking of "brahmins as traitors". But there is a systemic rot and community-wide neuroses that are being referred to. That must be scrubbed. The good cultural traits ought to be harvested and must re-enter the system. Carl-ji. When someone says "majority" of...
by ManishH
13 Sep 2012 09:41
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

Well we can start with people who are supposed to have shaped our trajectory from before independence. The most anti-Hindu and pro-Christian, pro-Islamist, pro-communist role - ideologically, has been that of Jawaharlal Nehru. By official accounts he hails from Kashmiri Brahmin origins. So basicall...
by ManishH
12 Sep 2012 19:41
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

I feel you weren't 100% honest in accepting loop holes in linguistic arguments. Either you hid or ignored or remained silent knowing fully well some of the arguments made against linguistics or AIT are true. Many people like me who know nothing about linguistics would have benefited greatly by your...
by ManishH
12 Sep 2012 19:36
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

ManishH: a) In linguistics, when you claim that 2 languages have a common parent, what is it based on? What % of words must they have in common? Example: if Sanskrit had 1000 words and 100 of which have Greek counterparts, that's a 10% match. Is that enough evidence to search for a common parent? I...
by ManishH
12 Sep 2012 18:10
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

A lot of damage has been done, and its external consequences may have been delayed, but that is no cause for complacency. Its just that there are many more factors at play. But that doesn't mean that damage has not been done. Even if we disagree about the actual damage past or future of AIT on Indi...
by ManishH
12 Sep 2012 17:18
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

B-ji: two statements you made about Brahmins ... Overall, the overwhelming majority of them do seem to use all their conditioning and training, and intellectual resources provided by the traditions and society - against their very birth society. Yes they are an insignificant minority within the enti...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 15:23
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Manishji the existence of palatization requires the construction of a non existent proto word which needs to undergo palatization for kleos to become sravas. The velar (k) is present in an attested language - Greek, no one has imagined the velar (k) in an imaginary proto language. I have shown a ro...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 13:36
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

The loss of inheritance By Gurcharan Das It seems that some one is reading BRF. The article is concerned with the fact that India is the only major culture whose history in predominantly foreign hands. Sheldon Pollock is clearly mistaken. He has overestimated the grasp of Historical aspects of Indi...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 13:33
Forum: History & Current Affairs Archive
Topic: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies
Replies: 4186
Views: 65047

Re: Distorted history- Causes, consequences, remedies

viv: of late, Brahmins have been the bashing boys of all sort of narrow-minded interests. If there is something wrong in India, blame it on the Brahmin. Amazing; for a group of people who are mostly minorities in India and have had no significantly long period of hegemony over political power.
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 11:48
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

I have a rhetorical question. What do you think is closer to Sanskrit 'áśva' ? a) Greek 'hippos' , or b) Latin 'equos' , or c) Old English 'eoh' , or d) Sumerian 'aśśa' ? You have totally missed the point that loan words follow odd phonetics. Whereas cognates of language families follow regular pho...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 11:22
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

But guess what? It is claimed that haptahindu is earlier and saptasindhu later. Shiv: In your posts, you are trying to play two roles together: 1. You announce a Linguistics claim to public. 2. Then you proceed to "demolish" it Unfortunately, since your demolition skills (#2) are so poor,...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 11:11
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

If you want to convert kleos to sravas , or equus into ashwa this is the way to do it. But I think this is rubbish and will provide a far more credible route of sound change I can see no way " ek " or " ke " or " kh " can become " sh " or " s ". The...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 10:57
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

His stand is not one in favor of academic impartiality or thoughtfulness ('let's weigh the arguments in favor of both sides'), this is not a stand that has any remote sense of understanding of what it means to this country- it is a stand that to my mind reeks of sheer, unmitigated bigotry and hatre...
by ManishH
11 Sep 2012 10:56
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Sanskrit and Greek have many "sa' and "ha" cognates. In every case the "sa" was likely to be the older, closer to original one. In the Greek it changes to "a" or "ha" It is very well understood that "sa" is the original sound. Nothing new in th...
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 16:16
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Arabic word ?? I think we seem to have totally lost all sense of chronologies out here. We should be talking about Sumerian or Elamite - Arabic language developed millenia afterwards. Please. Sumerian and Elamite are totally different from the Semitic language family from which Arabic developed. No...
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 15:45
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Abhibhushan wrote: iskool in Bangla/Bhojpuri as borrowed words? What immutable law of phonolgy causes this differential mutation?


It's called 'epenthesis'. Also exhibited by native spanish speakers of english.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epenthesis ... wing_words
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 15:44
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

If you cannot make the simple distinction between Sanskrit 'mīḍha' and 'medha', I cannot help you. No need to get all uptight sir. I am talking about medha and mazda which are totally relevant to the Mitanni texts and what Witzel wrote. I have a hard copy of Apte's dictionary and midha is not liste...
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 15:01
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

3. Study of regularity of sound change in IE language vocabularies indicates that words for 'chariot'/'horse' were not loanwords or wander-woerter (like camera/TV etc are); but intrinsic part of the vocabulary. So the PIE speakers were already domesticating horses and making chariots before the dis...
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 14:34
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

My post was on the subject of soundness of phonetic reconstruction methods behind PIE. Not about the homeland of IE languages. The fact is that predictions made by phonetic reconstruction methods were borne out by discoveries of epigraphs in languages that were intermediate between PIE and their hi...
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 14:26
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

er Manishji I don't consult dictionaries. I use parrots to pick out cards. Now a little bird tells me that misthos in greek means wages. It also tells me that medha (Sans) and mazda (Avestan) are cognates meaning intelligence. You're not bluffing here are you? With due respect, I request you to rer...
by ManishH
07 Sep 2012 14:23
Forum: Trash Can Archive
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth
Replies: 8372
Views: 210176

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

You have clearly stated on multiple occasions that linguistics is of no help in locating the Aryan Uhreimat. The basis of AIT is therefore in philological references found in the RV. Why are you yourself again mixing up AIT with phonology & linguistics? Arjun-ji: I was replying to this specific...

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