Search found 77 matches

by ukumar
03 Apr 2018 21:10
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

With this new preprint + the assumption that the Steppe ancestry is correlated with Indo-European languages, the story that Indo-European languages entered India post-IVC; that Vedas, Mahabharata etc., are at a maximum age of 3500 years before present, etc., is reiterated. Perhaps Rg Veda compositi...
by ukumar
03 Apr 2018 20:45
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Thanks, but I'm still confused. The excerpt I quoted from March 2017 thought that Indians were better modeled with EMBA than MLBA. It shouldn't matter what the previous unknown components are. It does matter actually. Models are approximate based on known genetic sources. Since Iranian farmers + On...
by ukumar
03 Apr 2018 09:35
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Dunno what to make of this. The paper under discussion talks about Steppe_EMBA and Steppe_MLBA. (Early-Middle Bronze Age) and (Mid-Late Bronze Age). The paper under discussion starts off saying "Steppe_EMBA" is ubiquitous in India; but when discussing South Asia, uses Steppe_MLBA in its a...
by ukumar
24 Jun 2017 08:26
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

A brief note from my side: I had an email exchange with Peter Underhill a while back, when the Poznik paper came about. Underhill wrote that his views have changed somewhat (from his earlier paper), because of new techniques that have emerged (NGS - Next Gen Sequencing), which give shallower dates ...
by ukumar
24 Jun 2017 08:22
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

It is frustrating to see that they take Indo-Iraniannness of Andronovo and Sintastha as proven fact and that Rigveda describes this culture. I have done an article addressing exactly this (today). It is ready for publication hopefully in Swarajya. I have contacted Nilesh and others and will make su...
by ukumar
23 Jun 2017 22:02
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

ukumar ji I have no problem with Reich making hypothesis such as this and then validating it with new found genetic evidence. I have done this in my astronomy research 100+ times, practically for every new 'astronomy' observation. I was raising issues about his extrapolation (of his work) to Sanskr...
by ukumar
23 Jun 2017 21:55
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

“"What we had proposed was a ghost population, a population that we were predicting statistically based on the patterns that’s left on present-day people but that doesn’t exist anymore in the place where it once was.”       This should remind many of the proposal of a ghost language– PIE (Prot...
by ukumar
21 Jun 2017 10:45
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Volks, My $0.02 response to AIT re-incarnation in the 'THE HINDU', for what it is worth... https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/is-it-ignorance-or-yet-another-mischievous-attempt-at-proving-the-never-existent-aryan-invasion-of-india Great article. With imminent ancient DNA data from Rakhigarhi, t...
by ukumar
23 May 2016 06:46
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Comparing two papers is tricky and need to account for methodology used to derive relative age. As I have tried to explain in my previous posts Lucotte and others used variance to determine relative age. That method is not accurate when comparing nodes with different level of mutation between them....
by ukumar
23 May 2016 03:24
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

But all this means that the rubbish we have heard about language coming with horse and chariot as "Proto Indo-European" later splitting to 'Indo-Iranians" and laterv Avestan and Sanskrit is total rubbish. Any Sanskrit in India before 1500 BC kills AIT Completely Agree. To support AIT...
by ukumar
23 May 2016 03:13
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Do you have reference to the parent Z93 ( without L657 mutation) in India[/b]? To my knowledge, all Indian Z93 are sub clades of Z94 (L657 or its sister clades (Y40,Z2121,Z2124)). Thats the impression I got from this forum. I guess it means not z93 by itself but its subclades are mostly found in In...
by ukumar
23 May 2016 02:58
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Let us say there is an individual who has z94. Does it mean if someone tests him for z93 they will find him to have z93 for sure? Or does it mean that z94's presence implies z93 and he may not have z93 if one specifically looks for z93 in him? Z93, Z94 and l657 etc are separate mutations and can be...
by ukumar
22 May 2016 07:15
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Especially when its parent z93 is found only in India and Siberia and Indian z93 is the oldest. Is the Poltavka z93/z94 older than what is determined in India from present DNA? Do you have reference to the parent Z93 ( without L657 mutation) in India? To my knowledge, all Indian Z93 are sub clades ...
by ukumar
22 May 2016 06:57
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

A discontinuity between earlier and later steppe populations is also suggested by the shift from an R1b Y-chromosome gene pool into an R1a-dominated one in the Srubnaya (Supplementary Data Table 1). We caution that this does not mean that new populations migrated into the steppe as R1a was also det...
by ukumar
22 May 2016 06:02
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

it is very clear that Steppe and India share R1a1a parental line and last shared ancestry was when M417 split in to z283 and Z93. Most indian Z93 also have Z94. Z94 was born around same time when it is found in Poltavka sample above. This is a strong indication that Z94 was born outside India somew...
by ukumar
22 May 2016 03:25
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Please check these three samples: Samara Eneolithic Russia Khvalynsk II, Volga River, Samara [I0433/SVP 46] M 4700-4000 BC R1a1 -> M459 Corded Ware Germany Bergrheinfeld [RISE446] M 2829-2465 BC R1a1a1 -> M417 CTS7278+, CTS10993+, FGC2547+, FGC2550+), xCTS4385 (Z2461-), xZ645 (Z647-) Poltavka outli...
by ukumar
17 May 2016 10:42
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

There seems to be a pattern in all this. Every time a new field or new discovery is made, the assorted Indologists and linguists claim that as proof for AIT. By the time the rest of the folks catch up and point out the flaws, they move on to a more recent discovery and say why this is correct and s...
by ukumar
17 May 2016 10:30
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Thanks the mist is clearing. But not out of the woods yet. If you look at this picture: http://i1116.photobucket.com/albums/k566/bennedose/underhill-R1_zps0gfrellj.jpg how is it certain that m417 is above z282 and z93? do you know what logic was used to arrive at this conclusion? This picture is fr...
by ukumar
17 May 2016 10:01
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Looking for Z93 on that page, one gets: Srubnaya Russia Novoselki, Northern Forest, Samara [I0232/SVP 12] M 1850-1200 BC R1a1a1b2 Z93 Srubnaya Russia Barinovka I, Samara River, Samara [I0423/SVP 31] M 1850-1200 BC R1a1a1b2 Z93 some undated stuff from Mongolia, this from Mongolia: Mongolia Takhilgat...
by ukumar
16 May 2016 06:39
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

ukumar: Are you @Dirghakarna on Twitter because your arguments are very similar? 1) As Shiv said, lets not assume anything about how old language or PIE is. Also, when early reports of R1a being common to Europe & India were found, the same linguists/geneticists claimed that as proof of AIT (wi...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 10:54
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

1) Not only is M417 date important, M17 (R1a1a*) is important as well. Underhill's paper assigns a coalescence date of 14 kya for R1a1a* (xM458) with its highest diversity in Indus Valley ! Its presence in Poland is 11.2kya. So, its clear that M17 moved from Indus Valley area to Europe. 2) In the G...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 08:24
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

From Underhill 2014 We caution against ascribing findings from a contemporary phylogenetic cluster of a single genetic locus to a particular pre-historic demographic event, population migration, or cultural transformation. The R1a TMRCA estimates we report have wide confidence intervals and should ...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 08:11
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

A dumb question. Lucotte paper which dates Z93 and Z280 says this. "We have refound in our samples the clear distinction initially established by Pamjav et al. [21] between Indian Z93 populations and European Z280 populations: all our South Asian populations are Z93, while almost all our Europ...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 02:52
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

I think This contradiction is because you are comparing dates arrived from two different methodologies. Z93 can not exist before M417 mutation first and must be younger than M417. z93 date above is over estimated. The other possibility is that the four (or six) Iranian samples that showed a cluster...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 02:38
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

I guess he is referring to the Underhill paper from 2014 which we've been discussing above. If Underhill is stating that M417 coalescence is 5800 YBP, it means that Z93 mutation happened at that timeframe. But I don't see how that supports AIT. 1) Underhill's 2014 paper states that R1a* (M420) orig...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 02:22
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

ukumar: plz read the chronology I proposed in the last page. Even if we assume Lucotte's chronology is superseded by Underhill's 2014 paper, I don't see how it changes things. Moreover I agree with Shiv's view: it is a documented fact (one of the papers mention it) that the earlier genetics studies...
by ukumar
15 May 2016 01:51
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Is it possible for you to explain in a bit non techy language why the conclusions of two underhill papers are different? I'll try. I am writing this from memory so pardon me for any errors. First thing to understand is nature of the research in population genetics. Genes by themselves are real thin...
by ukumar
14 May 2016 11:14
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Sorry, I don't understand your gene flow direction explanation. In absence of immidiate ancestors of Z93 in India, how can you avoid Arrival in to India? Yes, that is my guess too. I think r1a1a diversified in Iran and went to both Europe and India. You may want to read http://new-indology.blogspot...
by ukumar
14 May 2016 10:54
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

These "Iranians" may have been part of early migrations that contributed to ANI because they went and mixed with ASI/Onge Andaman genes that are 24,000 years old in India (and 48,000 years old in Andamans) But if you take Underhill dates - one paper puts the earlier M17 as over 12,000 yea...
by ukumar
14 May 2016 10:36
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Sir, you have good argument for M17 but missing one crucial point for Z93. Z93, its parent (M417,z85,z645,z651) and cousin (z283,z280) are found in steppe ancient DNA. Whereas there is no report of parent (M417,z85,z645,z651) and cousin (z283,z280) in India so far. As such, Z93 probably came from o...
by ukumar
14 May 2016 10:25
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Did you not read lucottes paper that has been referenced consistently? The oldest z93 marker is found in PunjaI which either meant that it came from India or we have migration of earliest marker. m417 branched into r1a1a1a and r1a1a1b2 in pontine steppe. Highly possible we could have had bulk flow ...
by ukumar
13 May 2016 09:03
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Z93 is a branch of M17. M17 has its oldest genetic presence in India, but has spread out to Russia, East Europe. As pointed out many times before, two of the daughter branches of M17 show up separately in Europe and India. Z 93 is India, while M 458 is found in Europe only. That means M17 evolved i...
by ukumar
25 Jan 2016 08:12
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

It appears that Z93 is the oldest and occurs with greatest frequency in India - particularly Punjab where it is there in 60% of people. Z93 (India) is about 15,000 years old Z280 (Europe) is about 12000 years old in Eastern Europe and 7000 years in Northern Europe I would caution against using thes...
by ukumar
16 Jan 2016 21:59
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

....... I can see that modern genetic studies involve much processing of data and the lengths that geneticists go to try and avoid errors that might creep in. This is obvious from the fact that genetics papers typically state the sorts of errors that they tried to avoid or the errors that could hav...
by ukumar
15 Jan 2016 10:10
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

problem is that people casually assume that there was a migration of Aryans carrying language and that theory has no basis whatsoever and it was simply conjured up by philologists and Indologists. So any scientifically minded person who uses the name "Indo-Aryan" would be expected to know...
by ukumar
15 Jan 2016 09:27
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

We can agree to disagree here. I think ancient DNA would establish with confidence if Indo aryan came to India after IVC collapsed or were already well....... They are coming our way...ready or not. Everybody would have to adjust the theories. True. But will they? Because frankly evidence is coming...
by ukumar
15 Jan 2016 09:15
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

We can agree to disagree here. I think ancient DNA would establish with confidence if Indo aryan came to India after IVC collapsed or were already well established in India during mature harrapa time. Everybody would have to adjust the theories accordingly irrespective of tribal pride or biases. Bu...
by ukumar
14 Jan 2016 09:48
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Not at all. You are speaking only from the viewpoint of genetics, but when a genetics paper cites a reference which is in turn based on a nonsense archaeo-linguistic document it counts as a "cite". Sooner or later this genetics paper will be used as a cite in an archaeological or linguist...
by ukumar
13 Jan 2016 09:23
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

..... You have pointed out that mutation rate is questionable and you are right. But even this paper ("Upper Paleolithic genomes..) uses mutation rates to date their material. I have a naive/stupid question/suggestion. Why do we have to wait for some study to be done by someone else? What is m...
by ukumar
13 Jan 2016 09:08
Forum: Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum
Topic: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2
Replies: 5250
Views: 550690

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

3 papers are focusing on steppe genetics and you are right that they have only shown relatedness of CHG with ANI. They haven't given firm opinion on direction of gene flow with respect to India and we need to wait for future papers with asian ancient DNA. And I don't expect them to do that. But wha...

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