Search found 55 matches

by Sajan
09 Apr 2007 07:31
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

enrages me; and it makes me feel like an outsider in my own land I think this is a problem with making simplistic analogies like rapist and the baby resulting from the rape. Since rape came in the context of destruction of hindu temples etc., I am curious if the same treatment can be extended to th...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 08:24
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

Following was a comment from shiv in an earlier thread http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=3032&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=200 But Sajan is definitely trolling. I will allow Sajan to dig his own grave and wait for it to be deep enough. He may well jump into it himse...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 08:03
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

Look how he takes the Christian Population of Travancore and divides it by the population of Kerala to yank out his perjentaje. Actually in 1931, most of the christian population of kerala was confined to Travancore state. Most of the christians in malabar migrated in the last 40-50 years from Trav...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 07:46
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

Do you think that Sajan's usage of the words "You are desperate" in the same post that he accused someone of chasing windmills is another harmless expression Shiv, the context is in the above post, providing misleading statistics and at the same time blaming marxist historians of providin...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 07:29
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

Let me quote what prompted me to make that comment quote from Wiki) that there were 17 million Christians in Travancore in 1931. Now the pop of WHOLE of Kerala was 50 million in 1931. ... so that makes 34% Christians in Kerala? Heck.... even after steady growth rates down the years the Christians ar...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 05:35
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

So I think these churches have more to be afraid of evangelicals in kerala as they stand to lose their sheep . "Sheep", as you say man... :rotfl: For me, anyone following any religion is showing a herd-like mentality, because of the need for "strength in numbers", as can be evid...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 05:16
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

So what's your point Sajan? What are you trying to say? My responses are for AnandK who is blaming marxist historians/british/muslims for ills like caste system in his rather desparate attempt to absolve the travancore monarchy of the systemic casteism practised in the society. So my intention is t...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 03:08
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

If AnandK is going to claim that KR Narayanan's case was an isolated incident, here is another example of Dr. palpu. Also it debunks the myth that Anand was trying to perpetrate here that casteism was even more severe under direct british rule compared to the meriful maharajs http://www.geocities.co...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 02:50
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

yep. sajan has not answered my question. why does he hate hindus especially upper caste hindus so much? This reminds me of the antics used by folks like sadler in this forum - if you criticize israel, it becomes anti-semitism. Similarly, if you question the popular hagiography in this forum, it bec...
by Sajan
08 Apr 2007 01:53
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 10
Replies: 377
Views: 178644

For all the rhetoric from Anand where he was fighting the wind-mills, he ignored the main points raised in my previous post. I didn't quote the kerala govt. website alone, I quoted an article from an extreme right-winger like Rajeev Srinivasan who had admitted that under the rule of Travancore kings...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 14:15
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

Your post implicitly says that states with high percentage of Brahmins would correspond to bad situation for lower castes.
If you read the prior posts, I am talking about why Sri Narayana Guru didn't have to come out against brahmins in kerala as Mahatma Phule did in Maharashtra or EVR did in TN.
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 14:12
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

In Kerala, a famous legend is Important part here is "LEGEND", not proven How is this possible if Kerala had serious caste discrimination for centuries? You just read kerala history, at least from the time of Marthanda Varma. That should provide you with 2 centuries of history at least, a...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 14:04
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

Nambudiris had tremendous power in Kerala till land reforms happened If that is the case, are you admitting that communists played as big a role as sri narayana guru in breaking the caste system and brhamin hegemony(through land reforms, incidently carried out by a kerala nambudiri, EMS). Instead y...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 13:55
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

I give two hoots about the technicalities of caste system. What matters to me is how it impacted real people and what they are doing/tried to do to throw that yoke away and how that is one of the main reasons for religious conversions in India. Ins spite of this Nambudiri power, if Sri Narayana Guru...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 13:42
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

The Malabar rebellion was not much different from what happened in Pakistan side during partition (though not to that scale). It is because of this reason Malappuram has such a huge muslim population. This communal war is written as social struggle of muslim peasants against Hindu landlords by comm...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 13:39
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

These are temporary phenomenon. These votes will go back once they resolve their issues and resentment against LDF grows. Not really. These trends have been there since parliament elections in '04 when LDF trouned UDF while congress staged a comeback all over india. Even after LDF came to power, de...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 13:20
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

One more thing - when I look at the social activism from Phule and Sri Narayana Guru, you can find remarkable similarities - Emphasis on education and organization - Education of women - Opposition to caste system Talking about "nationalist" history Deenbandhu defended Jotirao when Vishnus...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 13:15
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

In Phule's worldview, ALL Brahmins where evil, cunning, parasites, his obsession with Brahmins made him unhinged Not really true, that is something that you trumped up just now. From the website that I had quoted Though the school had to be closed for sometime due to lack of funds, Jotirao re-opene...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 13:07
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

I don't know if he suffered from obsessive hatred, but as far as I can see, other than abusing Mahtma Phule, I haven't seen any objective analysis from you regarding what he wrote about Peshwas. As it is obvious from the link that I had posted here, Peshwas oppressed mahars, as well as other lower-c...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 12:48
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

As I had suspected, I am convinced about something by now about conversions and why people of this forum fear/protest against conversions so much. I think it is the same reason Maharaja of travancore feared conversions - it was going to force a change to the status quo. However, people like Mahatma ...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 12:39
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

His views on anything related to Brahmins has about the same credibility as Nazi views about Jews. Considering who the oppressor was in this case, you might want to liken it to Jewish view of Nazis :P You don't consider Mahatma Phule to be objective (and I am sure you might apply the same to Sri Na...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 12:09
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

At the same time there is a definite contribution of Peshawas in turning the tide of Islam and taking the Hindu Swaraj all the way to Attock. I am not here to glorify anyone, but to highlight the flaw in viewing history through the so-called "nationalist" prism and then criticizing the &q...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 11:43
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

Sajan et al., Here is a take on the caste system from a blogger. http://www.maanojrakhit.com/9788189746_11_7.pdf Objectively look at what he has to say. Disgusting. I think it would be a comic relief to read that blog. :D I enjoyed the part that talks about how british created the caste system and ...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 11:23
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

http://vundru.blogspot.com/2005/11/dalit-battles.html After Shivaji's death in 1680, the Peshwa rulers oppressed the Mahars, making them hang a pot around their neck to spit and tie a broom around their waist to sweep away their 'impure' footsteps. This social oppression and exclusion led the Mahars...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 11:00
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

More on Mahatma Phule's opinion of the Peshwa rule - not as egalitarian as others would like to portray here http://www.mahatmaphule.com/jp1.html Readers will please recall the inhuman death, inflicted upon the valiant, famous Vithojirao Holkar, in the manner described above, in Poona (on 16th April...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 10:51
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

I think the hagiography about Maratha Kings proves Kosambi's point again Maratha Empire was the only Indian empire which didn't adhere to the caste system. Here, the Brahmins (Peshwe) were the prime ministers of the Kshatriya (Maratha) emperors and lower caste Shudras (Holkars) were the trusted gene...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 10:12
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

I found Kosambi's approach to history rather interesting because of my earlier exchange with AnandK regarding the travancore monarchy. I had stated at that time that lowercastes and minorities were discriminated in travancore and Anand was trying to counter that by trying to paint the monarchy in fa...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 09:41
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

Sine you are recent member of BRF
BR quotes from every source - no source is considered untouchable here.
I don't think that was the response I got when I quoted Praful Bidwai's article here.
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 09:33
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

There are several quotes in the net. Why is then there debate and discussion among historians on history in NCERT and Indian Univ for the past 30 years?
Arun Shourie!! A Real reliable source indeed!!! :D :D

It may be better to quote RSS website
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 09:07
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

He understood history in terms of the dynamics of socio-economic formations rather than just a chronological narration of "episodes" or the feats of a few great men - kings, warriors or saints What is wrong with this ? Do you think history is the study of great kings and warriors ? Here a...
by Sajan
06 Apr 2007 08:43
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 9
Replies: 326
Views: 129915

From what I have seen, as individuals there is more dislike for Communists than for any other political movement. This is probably why the UDF had more KeralaCongress and IUML factions compared to the LDF I don't think this holds true anymore. Look at the results of last couple of elections and you...
by Sajan
03 Apr 2007 11:19
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 8
Replies: 320
Views: 114452

Now what will the response from one god traditions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) be if the govt of india endorsed a version of 10 commandments that said. That is precisely what you are doing when you ask for cow-slaughter ban because that offends the sensibilities of "majority". Turni...
by Sajan
03 Apr 2007 11:06
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 8
Replies: 320
Views: 114452

And since you don't have access to this "vast majority" - they would have to be right. From my experience, "vast majority" of people have plenty of commonsense and they don't care about most of these issues as they have plenty of other things to worry about. It is a very small m...
by Sajan
03 Apr 2007 10:56
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 8
Replies: 320
Views: 114452

This is the logic western countries use when they deny the rights of minority. I do not see why same logic cannot be used in India for the sake of communal harmony If I remember right, HAF (Hindu American Foundation) had successfully challenged display of 10 commandments in public places and won th...
by Sajan
03 Apr 2007 10:30
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 8
Replies: 320
Views: 114452

will you be cool with that?
I am perfectly fine with that. You can go and make urinals like cross, someone else can make urinal like "Om", yet another one can make urinal like david's star or kaaba. I don't care. Are you clear now ? :lol:
by Sajan
03 Apr 2007 10:23
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion Thread - 8
Replies: 320
Views: 114452

Indeed religion is a personal choice. Killing cows is not your religion is it? My religion abhors the killing of all animals, including cows. Why is your choice of killing cows being imposed upon me, flouting and insulting my religion? Should your choice be OK over my religion? Why not have my reli...
by Sajan
02 Apr 2007 11:22
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion thread - 7
Replies: 371
Views: 142446

You don't support the Ten Commandments *being displayed*, but you have not stated whether you agree with those Ten commandments or not Religion is a strictly personal choice. As long as my choices are not imposed on others (which is what the display of 10 commandments does or banning the cow slaugh...
by Sajan
02 Apr 2007 11:16
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion thread - 7
Replies: 371
Views: 142446

but lack of acknowledgement of the sentiment that cow slaughter is abhorrent to some should be a red line that is handled by beating the person who crosses it So are you advocating that anyone who doesn't acknowledge the sentiment regarding cow-slaughter in India should be beaten up ? Using the sam...
by Sajan
02 Apr 2007 09:58
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion thread - 7
Replies: 371
Views: 142446

Islam says exactly that. When Muslims are in a majority sharia must come into play. When they are in a minority, the law of that land must be followed by Muslims, but they must continue to follow sharia within their family lives. I suppose you are wholly in agreement with that then I don't remember...
by Sajan
02 Apr 2007 09:52
Forum: Religion Discussion Archive
Topic: Religion thread - 7
Replies: 371
Views: 142446

The bolded parts in your post that indicated ill treatment of cows do not gel with the defensive excuse you are making now. Does the bolded part that I quoted say anywhere that hindus mistreat the cow as Tilak claimed ? I think he jumped the gun when he saw that the article appeared in Pakistani da...