Bharat Rakshak

Aditya_V

Yes, but lets get the History correct.

1. When LCA was conceived , it was just a wish list never to actually happen, a MIg 21 replacement with BVR, A2G roles and then Unbotium flat rating engine specs.
2. The USSR and India Procurement was never really interested, the wanted a continuous purchases from the Indians
3. In 1987, trying to Veen us away from the Soviet's the Ragen admin in 1987 supplies 11 of the then latest GE 404 engines doing duty in their F-18, when the IAF was struggling with the newly acquired Mig-29 with RD 33 Engine. It must have looked like a marvelous piece of tech back then.
4. In 2001 when the LCA TD 1 flies the knives are out for the program, people like Suresh Kalmadi want to shut it down
5. Our Kaveri engine gets stuck with Russian Test beds, neither the French, UK are ready to play ball.
6. Slowly our portotypes start flying and its time for orders in 2008, what do we do we order 20 IOC, 20 FOC in 2010 and want suddenly want Aircraft powered by F414. While all the way the MRCA circus is being played.
7. In fact had we struck a deal for MRCA jets, and Licensed manufacturing of M-53 derivative with a combined deal we could have circumvented this issue.
8. Now we are stuck with GE hoping uncle will allow us license Manufacturing.
9. But we are not acquiring Test beds to start developing our own series of engines which will at least give us local alternatives 10-15 years down the line.

As you said, Politcos, Babus, Services have to get together while keeping the import lobby at bay. I guess SWIFT engines, LEAP engines for A320's, Manik engines for Nirbhay, Engines for Lakhsya hopefully spur on a domestic ecosystem along with testing equipment so we have a engine few years down the line for AMCA.
One thing I know no TOT will ever happen in the true sense.

maitya

konaseema wrote: ↑29 Dec 2024 06:45 With 4 programs (Tejas Mk1/A, Mk2, TEDBF & AMCA Mk1) that need 2 different types, the best possible option is to fund initiatives that will result in 2 different engines with 5% - 10% more thrust over GE 404 & 414 engines when these aircrafts need replacement engines. This buys us around 10 years to develop, test and get these 2 engines certified. How the GTRE go about it is to be decided between enhancing the current Kaveri engine (weight reduction and a better AB) or a clean sheet design to build 2 new engines and leave Kaveri core to power Ghatak. Instead of setting the specs that will match or better every aspect of the engines that it will replace, the requirement should be set to what is acceptable as the MVP for both engines (Mk1) and preferred requirement (MK2), so that we get the engines delivered on time.

konaseema-ji, the MVP for both was/is K9 - and,
i) K9* (dry-Kaveri + brand new AB) is the F404 equiv devt of this MVP.
Actually it is the K10 (the productionised version) where the weight would have to go to <1T.

ii) Kaveri+ is the F414 equiv devt, again based on this very same MVP, but with further incremental tech-infusion (some maybe of the 5th Gen genre).

iii) Developing any 120KN thrust-class (say Kaveri++), will require a brand new MVP, but that will be coming out of the Kaveri+ program - with even more incremental 5th Gen genre tech infusion.

So all that is needed is to flight-test and certify the MVP(K9) ASAP - unfortunately something that should have happened from 2012, and completion by 2015 etc, but didn't. Now, if any of these news-items are even partially true, and if a K9* gets fully certified in next 3-4 years, we are well and truly on our way wrt achieving all three of the above ((i), (ii) and (iii)).

Do note any strategic program, like developing TF capability, will mandatorily involve keeping-up to futuristic TF technology dev as well - without these technology infusions the next step of incrementally-updated MVPs wouldn't come thru.
So, going back to 3rd Gen TF like Adour, won't help in coming up with a MVP for these three etc.

Also note, cutting-edge tech devt is always incremental and just-like Mk1 -> Mk2 -> AMCA is the tech devt route, so is for K9* -> Kaveri+ -> Kaveri++.
And just like the tech-dev-illiterate folks, who are recently advocating cancelling Mk2 and directly jumping to AMCA etc, so is the case with TF D&D roadmap - can't remove the intermediate steps (like Kaveri+) and straightway jump to 120-130KN class TF, from a 80-85KN TF dev program.
The inglish-rich verbiage of "tech leap-frogging" etc, that gets trotted around well too often by the import-pasand shills, is just that - somehow wean away the tech-illiterate decision-makers, and lead them to a dreamy garden-path of ToAsT deals of various hues, only to waste more years and maybe even permanently damage the tech capability-dev initiatives.
So that turd-world developing countries like ours, remains forever import-dependent, and thus, bereft of any strategic autonomy.

Anyway, coming back to the topic, do note however, that above doesn't mean we don't need a Adour-class (27-29KN) light-weight TF - we do, and for that kind of TF, the MVP is HTFE-40 (which, after a great start, unfortunately, has got no updates for last 2 years - may have been mothballed).

Betw STFE is the MVP for ultra-light (and small) TF class - and with Manik (the K10 equiv of STFE) is more or less on it's way.

There, you now have an indigenous TF D&D "vision" laid out ... however difficulty is always wrt implementation!!

Rakesh

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1774689 ... 51184?s=20 ---> Mr CB Ananthakrishnan, CMD, HAL: "During the year, HAL & GE signed an MoU for ToT & manufacturing of GE-414 engines in India for LCA MK2. HAL would receive 80% tech transfer for this programme which will transform the Indian Aero Engine Manufacturing Ecosystem to be self-reliant."

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17748 ... 45289?s=20 ---> The remaining 20% is where the magic lies. India did not become self-reliant through license production of any engine till date. It won't with the 404/414 either. Only road through PTAE-7, Manik, HTFE-25, Kaveri, HTSE. HAL has license produced 100s of turbofans, turboprops and turboshafts. Nothing has given it autonomy over any engine except for PTAE-7. We MUST understand this difference. And it's not just HAL. How many Brahmos engines has been assembled? Yet, how many years have we been waiting for Brahmos NG and Brahmos mini? In the meantime, DRDO developed the solid fuel ramjet of Akash missile and adapted it for liquid fuel ramjet. This missile is called STAR. It is in an advanced state of manufacture and about to commence testing. Some technology will *never* be passed. Modern turbofan is one such tech. It has to be developed in house. It takes enormous money, effort, time and expertise. All TOT, collaboration is an eyewash. Political or technical, whatever you want to see it.advanced state of manufacture and about to commence testing.

https://x.com/kalapian_/status/1774854612845019409?s=20 ---> We have been making more than 80% of the RD-33 and the AL-31FP for donkeys years. The GE deal is even more screwdriver-giri. We will be locked out of the code for the FADEC and the hot section of the F-414 will come as an assembled piece to slot in.

Neela

Below, isn't the Manik engine is it?

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 8847858688RCI NAL 2.7 kn engine for tactical missile.

Courtesy: Firestarter-DFI.

chetak

Prem Kumar wrote:Alpha Defense says its Kaveri for Ghatak.

Frankly, if we can master the engines for Ghatak, Manik etc, that's a great start towards the eventual capability of having Kaveri powering our fighter jets.

engines like those for Ghatak, Manik, etc are half way stops on the long journey

the ultimate objective is to have a reliable engine cleared for operation in a single engined jet fighter.

This is done by enhancing the reliability of the engine and also significantly reducing the possibility of engine failure in flight.

Thus, the requirements are even more stringent than the engines used in a twin engined fighter because there is no redundancy available.

Prem Kumar

Alpha Defense says its Kaveri for Ghatak.

Frankly, if we can master the engines for Ghatak, Manik etc, that's a great start towards the eventual capability of having Kaveri powering our fighter jets.

k prasad

Pratyush wrote:Kaveri is heading to Russia for flight tests in January 2022.

I remember then GTRE director bemoaning during the Aero India Seminar in 2009 about how just a 100-200 crore fund infusion could allow us to create such a testing setup in India, but they hadn't been able to get GOI to fund it. I believe i mentioned that in my old reports
on BRF, if gurus want to take a look.

Looks like things haven't really changed in that domain in the past 12 years at least on that count.

But, judging by the types of technologies being developed, it seems like they have changed tack and are looking to develop and prove new technologies on smaller engines (manik, etc) or in other demonstrators. Bodes well as far as derisking is concerned.

P.S. on an OT note, the GTRE director i mentioned above was later caught in a sting at a brothel and shunted out ignominiously (as well as having wealth disproportionate) so take that as you will.

Rakesh

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 40864?s=20 --->

DRDO STFE

Manik engine

Rakesh

KPS really needed to be put in his place and it finally got done.

https://twitter.com/realkaypius/status/ ... 21834?s=20 ---> Are we supposed to celebrate this? The govt should shutter GTRE & sell the land on which it stands to fund this extravaganza. Building castles in the air on imported engines; doling out billions while keeping an inept establishment on drip feed. #AtmanirbharBharat?

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14281 ... 62115?s=20 ---> If Test Pilots also stop understanding challenges in core research like aero-engine design, Indian R&D is doomed. Difficult engineering problem; designing a high-thrust jet engine. Shutting down a research lab, because we can't have patience, speaks poorly of testing community.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 34630?s=20 ---> Plus the Manik which is now powering the Nirbhay, shaping up be a critical system, owes its heritage to the Kaveri. The engine likely to power the heavy UCAV programs will be a "dry" Kaveri derivative. Cant throw away all this hard won expertise!

https://twitter.com/i_udit_t/status/142 ... 69701?s=20 ----> Also the naval variant derived from Kaveri engine: 12 MW marine gas turbine engine is doing fine and will be used to propel naval craft in near future.

darshan

prashanth wrote: Chetak sir, I would have disbelieved this statement of yours if it were made maybe about two months back. But we now know that GTRE couldn't develop and qualify a relatively simple Manik engine for Nirbhay on time. We are now speculating that our RM may have requested for sale of more 36MT engines from Russia during his recent visits. Feel sad to say this but I think that our hopes on GTRE, for the development of a much more complex engin, Kaveri, were misplaced.

May be GTRE has or may be it hasn't. Not possible to extrapolate performance of one team over to the other team. Teams within the same company can deliver different outcomes. One will need information not in public space. We all know that GoI hardly has provided budget for everything that's required to develop and test engine technologies. May be manik team had talent but didn't have political savvy leadership to get resources. Or may be it's other way around.

chetak

prashanth wrote:
chetak wrote:it is also very clear that there is not one single man/woman (or even a team of people) in India who is/are acknowledged as being capable of either doing this work or even leading such a multifunctional team to achieve this goal
Chetak sir, I would have disbelieved this statement of yours if it were made maybe about two months back. But we now know that GTRE couldn't develop and qualify a relatively simple Manik engine for Nirbhay on time. We are now speculating that our RM may have requested for sale of more 36MT engines from Russia during his recent visits. Feel sad to say this but I think that our hopes on GTRE, for the development of a much more complex engin, Kaveri, were misplaced.

In the fullness of time, we will still prevail saar.

be patient.

the juggernaut has slowly but surely started to move.

prashanth

chetak wrote:it is also very clear that there is not one single man/woman (or even a team of people) in India who is/are acknowledged as being capable of either doing this work or even leading such a multifunctional team to achieve this goal

Chetak sir, I would have disbelieved this statement of yours if it were made maybe about two months back. But we now know that GTRE couldn't develop and qualify a relatively simple Manik engine for Nirbhay on time. We are now speculating that our RM may have requested for sale of more 36MT engines from Russia during his recent visits. Feel sad to say this but I think that our hopes on GTRE, for the development of a much more complex engin, Kaveri, were misplaced.

Singha

if the kaveri is to have a future and be the father of new engines, it must be
- put on Mig29S and IL76 testbeds - these can be used for testing future engines also
- used for Ghatak/aura atleast
- derated one used for the SPORT AJT in mid 2020s

else its not only a complete writeoff but all the engineers who developed the knowledge base will retire soon or have already done so.

all engine efforts needs to be merged into a common body under PMO control unlike HAL doing its own laghu shakti and manik type things with no gtre involvement

SaiK

copying on ramana's request from BRF twitter dhaaga:
---

#JaiShriRam Ramana
JayS, Did you take aircraft sizing studies in College? Specifically I want to know if the M88 cored Kaveri engine can be fitted into a Su-30 with an adapter structure? Mig 29 and K?
Jaguar path is the HAL engine with after burner.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · Yesterday, 4:41 PM

Ramana, if we take core of M88, we will habe to basically redesign LP system from scratch to match with the core, unless Kaveri LP system is already, with some incredible coincidence or due to extensive Snecma consutancy, has correct blade angles and mass flow rate matching for M88 core.
JayS· Yesterday, 10:44 PM

And funfact is GTRE has core working OK, and has had trouble with LP Compressor and AB system mainly. So I dont see the point in replacing core. What we shud hv gotten from French is SCB. Not the ToT but blades supplied to our design. And help in AB system design.
JayS · Yesterday, 10:46 PM

JayS
I never have seen no reference to SCBs in Kaveri so far, apart from SCBs from DMRL. Kaveri has had DS blades. I dont think we can make those blades completely ourselves. We do not have technology so far, for TBC coating and laser hole drilling. For that the blades are sent abroad. I cant think why France wouldnt want to mfg scb stock blades for us and supply.
JayS · 12:12 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
JayS, How many M29 are there?
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:14 AM

JayS
The process that Russians ToTed is less advanced than even what DMRL has developed. What we were lacking was TBC and laser drilling. Recently we have seen TBC related tender from DMRL, IIRC, indicating some definite progress there.
JayS · 12:15 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
France had a close call with DT demanding India buy American for 114. India refused and bought S400. So France owes India one.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:16 AM
IAF has 3 SQ of M29. I dont know exact number but its between 60 and 70.

JayS
IN has 45 odd M29K
JayS · 12:21 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
So they won't miss one.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:21 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
If we push IAF to hand over a M29, is the engine ready?
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:23 AM

JayS
Interestingly HAL's HTSE1200 also have SCB in them. Question is how is HAL making them, or is it Snecma which is supplying them..? Its highly likely that HAL is getting Shakti SCB from Snecma and usi g them in HTSE. I would be surprized to see HAL making those SCB on their own based on Russian ToT. Its definitely a possibility and would be a pleasant surprize if its the case.
JayS· 12:25 AM

JayS
GTRE folks say its ready. Scecma has audited and says its ready for limited flight testing. We have had some discussion in Kaveri thread where I posted some recent publications from GTRE which indicate they have solved the issues with LPC flutter and AB screech. I feel there is good evidence to suggest the engine is ready for flight testing.
JayS· 12:27 AM

JayS
They may find more problems in FT, but without FT we will never know.
JayS· 12:28 AM

JayS
There is a plane for couple of FT campaigns on larger FTB, most likely IL76. I think a tender was out for first one. But my memory is bit hazy on this. The discussion must be there in Kaberi thread. Or Indranil might remember.
JayS· 12:30 AM

#JaiShriRam Ramana
Indranil and your article on MWF and comparison to Grippen being read in high places.
#JaiShriRam Ramana · 12:55 AM

JayS
Good too know. If it makes some. Impression where it matters,nothing like it.
JayS · 1:40 AM

No Jay, I meant the SCBs were almost ready from our labs and it was only a question of jigs. I don't recollect any news after that we made to make the prototype (k9?).

The failure was with the existing blade.. and we were working on the SCB (drdo pub i recollect). BTW, isn't DS the first step to single crystals? The process used by russkies for the AL fps is different? Or we never got this tech from them?

Anyway, I think we were close yp get the 90* bends with SCB (I need tp refer the pub) or something. I vaguely remember zirconium reference..hence the question.
2:43 AM

JayS
DMRL has 2nd Gen SCB. But they can make the stock material. From there to finished blade need two critical. Tech we didnt have, TBC and Laser driling for cooli g holes. Midhani was in process of dev those tech. This is way back in 2017.recently there was a tender for TBC machine setup.
JayS · 5:46 AM

JayS
Russian tech is a bit tedious one, per a DMRL scientist. Western method is better and DMRL has followed the western approach. Also IIRC, Al31 HPT blades have single pass internal cooli g channels. While western scb have multipass. Even DMRL blades are multipass.
JayS · 5:48 AM

Nilesh Ji .. novice question: are we focusing on creating smaller jets for drones? Can Kaveri be downsized for a surveillance drone?
Jambavan
Thanks in advance
Jambavan · 5:57 AM

JayS
We have couple of small jet engines, PTAE7, Manik which are good for drones. Companies like Poerjet, Kalyani are making micro jets. HTFE25 is there. Kaveri is too tfta for drones.
JayS· 6:17 AM

At IITB, we have now new propulsion lab for SCB research.
8:59 AM

JayS
is that a part of CoPT.?
JayS · 11:54 AM

yes. per last oped I read

https://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-n ... ZC7OO.html

I wanted to go visit IITB for some time, but could never manage. I was curious to find out what they are doing exactly. I was in touch with this thing long back when it was mere castle in the air.
JayS
in 2014
JayS · 12:12 PM

Indranil

1. The time to reenigne the Jaguars are now (or never). An afterburning HTFE is at least 6-7 years away! So, although HAL says it cant fit the HTFE on Jaguars, it's almost impossible.

2. It is the right time for them to think of a NG HJT/LIFT/LSA powered by HTFE. Empty weight: 4.5 tons. CTOW: 6.5 tons, MTOW: 10 tons. Supersonic at altitude. 7 hardpoints. AESA primary radar. Litening.

3. Would love to see Manik scale up to the 0.7 ton thrust class. Would a good replacement for the PTAE-7 engine.

JayS

Indranil wrote:Jay,

Please give us a dump on HTFE, HTSE and Manik that you found at AI19.

Sorry saar, this times visit was very unfruitful for me.

I don't have much on this. Only that HAL has validated the core of HTFE to a satisfactory level and are moving ahead with full engine system with LP system designed for 25kN thrust. Later they will add AB to get it to about 36kN.

The guy near HTSE didn't know much.

Manik is good to go, we will see it on oncoming Nirbhay test. It worked beautifully in cold temp tests those happened in Leh some time back.

Kaveri is in limbo. GTRE mainly is looking for Hot tech to jack up the thrust (SCBs and all), but French guys have asked so much money that it like 3-4x money spent on entire Kaveri project so far. GTRE has given proposal from their side, thinks are in MOD's court. The person there had no idea on the Flying Test Bed (FTB) proposal that DRDO is supposed to be working. He said all issues with Flutter and screech are solved and they want to test the new design on FTB. The tender we saw was for that. but he couldn't give any timelines on the tests as he said its G2G matter really. When they give green light it will happen. His helplessness was very evident. I forgot (

) to ask him about the new fan or what is the status on other things like Ghatak engine et al or what new engines they are building currently (wrt all those tenders we see now).

He also mentioned LCA Airframe is available wherever GTRE wants it.

Indranil

Jay,

Please give us a dump on HTFE, HTSE and Manik that you found at AI19.

Neela

@SJha1618
According to India's Ministry of Defence, 3 sets of the MANIK Small Turbofan Engine developed by @DRDO_India are to be integrated with the Nirbhay cruise missile for testing. The integration work is being done by Brahmos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Limited

ramana

Youtube has many poitive updates on Kaveri and Manik turbofans.

JayS

Indranil wrote:Integration of Manik engine with Nirbhay has begun. GTRE has sent out a tender for the manufacturing of the engine bay. This will be completed in 120 days.

Great news.

Indranil

Integration of Manik engine with Nirbhay has begun. GTRE has sent out a tender for the manufacturing of the engine bay. This will be completed in 120 days.

JayS

Zynda wrote:Dunno about HTFE, but I hear there is more pressure on STFE (Manik) to succeed...

Pressure is good. Hopefully with pressure there is adequate funding and decisiveness too. Else with slothlike babudom and meagre funding, no amount of pressure will work. Lets not forget GTRE is completely lachar and has to stand with begging bowl in front of all mighty MoD babus while HAL has relatively much better autonomy, own money and own facilities and aircrafts for testing etc.

Zynda

Dunno about HTFE, but I hear there is more pressure on STFE (Manik) to succeed...

JayS

Zynda wrote:It seems like Manik Engine is ready and DRDO is looking for Private Sector to undertake manufacturing activities. Huge development...

Wasn't Manik scheduled to go on Nirbhay as well to replace existing Russian engines? Also any recent news of Manik successful testing?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/whatsnew/gtre-engine.pdf
Gas Turbine Research Establishment, Bengaluru had undertaken the project to design and develop a 450 kgf thrust class Small Turbo Fan Engine
‘Manik’ for Unmanned Aerial Vehicle application.

GTRE intends to invite Expression of Interest (EOI) for Transfer of Technology (ToT) of ‘Manik’ Small Turbo Fan engine. Interested industries may
respond to the EOI.

EOI will be published shortly in the National dailies/DRDO Portal & DI2TM portal of DRDO website.

Good news. However such thing was published for HTFE-25 like 3yrs ago. Nothing had been heard of it since. They need to show orders else no one would come forth.

ramana

Yes. Manik is Nirbhay power plant.

Zynda

It seems like Manik Engine is ready and DRDO is looking for Private Sector to undertake manufacturing activities. Huge development...

Wasn't Manik scheduled to go on Nirbhay as well to replace existing Russian engines? Also any recent news of Manik successful testing?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/whatsnew/gtre-engine.pdf

Gas Turbine Research Establishment, Bengaluru had undertaken the project to design and develop a 450 kgf thrust class Small Turbo Fan Engine
‘Manik’ for Unmanned Aerial Vehicle application.

GTRE intends to invite Expression of Interest (EOI) for Transfer of Technology (ToT) of ‘Manik’ Small Turbo Fan engine. Interested industries may
respond to the EOI.

EOI will be published shortly in the National dailies/DRDO Portal & DI2TM portal of DRDO website.

JayS

Saw a tender for Turbine Blisk by GTRE. Specs for it are:

air flow = 5kg/sec
RPM = 35000
Max Op Temp = 1000deg C

Looks like Manik to me.

abhik

Indranil wrote:Laghu Shakti and Manik are one and the same. It is a joint effort between HAL/GTRE/NAL with some inputs from Saturn.

Here is the list of small turbofan/turbojet engine projects in India

Indranil wrote: 1. 0.30-0.45 kN : HAL (for Abhyas HEAT) and other UAVs
2. 1 kN (turbojet) : NAL
3. 2.75 kN (turbojet) : Upcoming RCI/NAL: This will be a formal step up , project completion of NAl's 1kN effort (part of the 12th 5-year plan)
4. Manik class: 4 kN - HAL/NAL/GTRE: For Nirbhay (formerly called Laghu shakti) upgradable to 7kN (according to SJha).
5. PTAE-7 engine : 4 kN (turbojet): HAL
Also, the Kalyani group is designing and testing engines of up to 2.5 kN class by using retired GTRE folks.

There was also a report of another private company that was investing 20cr on its own small jet engine.

Indranil

Laghu Shakti and Manik are one and the same. It is a joint effort between HAL/GTRE/NAL with some inputs from Saturn.

Here is the list of small turbofan/turbojet engine projects in India

Indranil wrote: 1. 0.30-0.45 kN : HAL (for Abhyas HEAT) and other UAVs
2. 1 kN (turbojet) : NAL
3. 2.75 kN (turbojet) : Upcoming RCI/NAL: This will be a formal step up , project completion of NAl's 1kN effort (part of the 12th 5-year plan)
4. Manik class: 4 kN - HAL/NAL/GTRE: For Nirbhay (formerly called Laghu shakti) upgradable to 7kN (according to SJha).
5. PTAE-7 engine : 4 kN (turbojet): HAL

Also, the Kalyani group is designing and testing engines of up to 2.5 kN class by using retired GTRE folks.

Neela

Indranil-ji
Are you talking about the jet starter kit not counted into weight?
36MT has all single stages in fan- HP compressor- HP turbine- LP turbine .
There isn't much scope for weight ambiguity but google does give diff results ( < 100kg ) whereas Saturn website mentions 71kgs.

In any case,
Saturn 36Mt dimensions: 850mm x 330mm
Manik is : 900 x 360mm

Indranil

Neela wrote:Saturn's 36T Specification
Engine..............................................................................36МТ
Thrust at maximum rating, kgf..................................................450
Specific fuel consumption at maximum rating*, kg/(kgf∙h).................0.71
Weight, kg...........................................................................71

For a little less than Saturn 36T's thrust , Manik weighs nearly 50% more atm.
But its still early days for it.

We don't know what those 110 kgs and 71 kgs include.

ramana

So how much does Saturn 36MT (used in Kh-59) cost vs. Manik engine now?

And will the reduced weight Manik have to undergo the same bench testing underway now?

its in 2014 that the engine was named Manik.
And its 2017 and still we don't have a usable prototype.
I think this is Kaveri all over again.

What ails GTRE that they always sign up to design and engine and deliver sub-specification models?

Did thy not have product requirements when they signed up for the project?
What was the weight requirement? Same as SATURN 36MT?

There is something systemic wrong in the that place.

Neela

Saturn's 36T Specification
Engine..............................................................................36МТ
Thrust at maximum rating, kgf..................................................450
Specific fuel consumption at maximum rating*, kg/(kgf∙h).................0.71
Weight, kg...........................................................................71

For a little less than Saturn 36T's thrust , Manik weighs nearly 50% more atm.
But its still early days for it.

ramana

X-post from Missiles thread for completeness...

Karthik S wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03 ... vs-up.html

Three months ago, India’s Nirbhay cruise missile was destroyed mid-flight after an electro-mechanical failure made it roll dangerously with half-opened wings. The roll glitched out the missile’s intertial navigation system, sending it careening out of its notified flight envelope and forcing the test team on ground to push the kill switch. As scientists work to clear up problems bedeviling the crucial long-range weapon effort, a related development is understood to be showing fresh promise, and could soon be a direct part of the Nirbhay: the Indian-built Manik mini turbofan engine, intended to power production series Nirbhay cruise missiles.

Almost exactly a year ago, DRDO chief S. Christopher witnessed a test run demonstration of the Manik turbofan at the DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bengaluru. In March 2015, Defence Secretary G. Mohan Kumar was shown the engine switched on. It was in November 2014 that the mini turbofan engine was christened Manik.

Livefist has learnt that the Nirbhay cruise missile, currently powered by an NPO Saturn 36MT turbofan, will next be tested in the May-June period using a turbojet engine. While the GTRE has been mandated with proving the Manik turbofan by the time the Nirbhay’s other flight systems are proven, top sources confirm a Nirbhay test powered by a Manik engine could take place by the end of next year. The Manik turbofan has been under rigirous ground and high power tests for over two years now, and scientists are understood to be satisfied with progress. Current activity includes work spread between GTRE and the National Aerospace Laboratory. At the latter’s Propulsion Division, Manik components including its fan, centrifugal compressor, high pressure and low pressure turbines and alternator are under test.

At 425 kgF (kilogram-force) of thrust, scientists are working to reduce the Manik turbofan’s current 110 kilogram total weight. The engine makes major use of the Mishra Dhatu Nigam-developed MDN 321 special steel and special indigenous alloys.
Significantly, the GTRE isn’t fully equipped to test the Manik and is working fast to add test capabilities and infrastructure. This was borne out yesterday in the defence standing committee’s report to Parliament, where the MoD made the following admission:

“The existing Fan & Compressor Test Facility at Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has inadequate capacity and has become obsolete. To carry out testing of Fan & Compressor for existing and future generation gas turbine engine programmes of GTRE, it is essential to have a dedicated Fan & Compressor test facility at GTRE. GTRE is working out the budgetary cost of this facility to be established ‘on turnkey basis’ with an objective to initiate EPC approval by end of Oct 2016.”

The report further details aggressive plans to beef up a non-existent engine development and validation ecosystem in South India:

“The design improvement and validation of aero engine components and modules through testing is a continuous activity to enhance and demonstrate engine performance and reliability. At present, only limited aerodynamic and structural testing can be conducted within the country. Hence, the required component testing facilities at an estimated cost of Rs.1330 crore are planned to be established by DRDO at Rajanakunte, Bengaluru for development of Ghatak engine and all future generation aero engines.”

In addition, the DRDO is reported to be planning a twin test cell at GTRE to carry out ‘performance testing of gas turbine engines upto 130 kN thrust class’, which includes all versions of the Kaveri engine, including the dry version being developed for the Ghatak stealth UCAV. The bolstering of gas turbine development and testing infrastructure is belated but very welcome: it amplifies a recognition that India is willing to invest in one of the toughest areas of military science, one that has tormented the most advanced nations, and is currently harrowing China too.

But the Nirbhay isn’t the end game, as it were. Livefist learns the Manik turbofan will also power the DRDO’s secretive Long Range Cruise Missile (LRCM), a weapon project revealed first here on Livefist in 2010. Top DRDO sources reveal the LRCM, currently still in a configuration phase, will involve a three-stage power system: a booster to put the missile in the air, the Manik turbofan to power the LRCM through its 1,000-km cruise phase and, finally, a ramjet engine that will push the LRCM into supersonic endgame towards its target. The full-fledged project is being spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL).

So what is the expected weight goal for the Manik currently weighing 110 kg?

JayS

Neela wrote:
Indranil wrote:VEry good write up from Saurav Jha, as always.

Foreign expertise key to fire up India's jets
No investments in high-bypass engine or in high power turboprops R&D ....not even plans.
Rs.10000 crore focused on high thrust mil only and 10 year forecast on RoI.
A few thousand crores now focusing on civilian & transport sector can yield quicker results as the constraints are much lower but will see faster RoI.
By today's exchange rates - the Chinese are are investing Rs.90,000 crores in a much more comprehensive plan.

Unless we have our own aircraft, no point in trying for Civil engine. Civil sector is far more cut throat and solely depends on economic value. Once we have perfectly working and flightworthy mil engine, it will be much easier to do it. While doing mil jet engine we basically would be creating the infrastructure (or we are suppose to) to enable us for future work. I think we should straightaway jump to GTF and Open Rotor architecture. And it would be a good idea to launch two TD projects for both these using either Kabini core or HTSE-25 core. This would give us chance to develop other things which will not be covered by mil jet project.

So we should -
- get Kaveri 80kN class flightworthy by using French help.
- Launch simultaneous project to uprate it to 90kN class (I believe its low hanging fruit, just replacing materials could* do the trick)
- Launch 110kN project with the aim of getting it to 10+:1 thrust class by 2035.
- Finish HTFE/HTSE/Manik et al projects as soon as possible.
- Launch Open Rotor/GTF project based on available desi core - starting at Academia level moving to Engineering eventually.
- Launch pure academic RnD projects on variable cycle engines - only a few Cr each yr for a decade or so should give us a good base.

Last two projects could act as umbrella projects to fund basic level of RnD for future across the spectrum.
Money and manpower both will be an issue though. But unless we go extremely aggressive we will never catch up.

To much wishful thinking..??

JayS

ramana wrote:JayS.

Thats screech. Basically inefficient combustion. Bad Afterburner design. That's what stopping it from achieving wet thrust. Whats surprizing is they sat over it for so long. They could have taken consultancy help only for AB by now and make it work.
One of our members here was told about combustion problems in early 2000 decade. So they knew but hoped it will get resolved.

The problem is issues are known and identified but due to "Bridge on the River Kwai" syndrome that is due to sunk cost they are brushed aside by leadership.

I wish IAF had its officers embedded in the Kaveri program so they could give feedback to the Chief.

Kaveri project chief seems to be hung up on making it solo effort of GTRE and not get what's' needed to push the product out.
By overpromising they have jeopardized GTRE already low reputation.

Hope the Manik is also not in same category.

Volvo Aero was asked to review Kaveri AB. I think it was one time thing. They should have done proper collaboration with Volvo then to fully debug it.
Might be the Politics or Organisational egos which prevented Kaveri PMs from seeing the light. In fact I find thats the only plausible reason.

ramana

JayS.

Thats screech. Basically inefficient combustion. Bad Afterburner design. That's what stopping it from achieving wet thrust. Whats surprizing is they sat over it for so long. They could have taken consultancy help only for AB by now and make it work.

One of our members here was told about combustion problems in early 2000 decade. So they knew but hoped it will get resolved.

The problem is issues are known and identified but due to "Bridge on the River Kwai" syndrome that is due to sunk cost they are brushed aside by leadership.

I wish IAF had its officers embedded in the Kaveri program so they could give feedback to the Chief.

Kaveri project chief seems to be hung up on making it solo effort of GTRE and not get what's' needed to push the product out.
By overpromising they have jeopardized GTRE already low reputation.

Hope the Manik is also not in same category.

Indranil

ramana wrote: As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.

We don't know what those 110 kgs include. I remember an aero india seminar talk in 2015 (or was is it 2013?) when a GTRE gent had talked about the engine. The talk also featured a gent from Saturn, whose Russian, this gent translated to English as well. Manik's specifications are truly world class. Whether GTRE can deliver them or not remains to be seen. The signs are good, but the progress is slow.

By the way, all the folks in Intech and Bharat-Forge's aero RnD positions in Bangalore are ex-HAL and ex-GTRE. Here the progress is stupendously fast. Another engine in this category (2.75 kN) is being developed by NAL/RCI. So, there will be no dearth of desi-engines in this regime.

Gyan

ramana wrote:Indranil, Thanks a lot. I am not concerned with mfg in India.
I am trying to discern Nirbhay design characteristics.

For example Manik engine thrust is 425/311 = 1.366 times more than the THawk Williams engine. Due to this its sfc is 0/78/0.68 is 1.14 times.
Very efficient compared to TH engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107

I know its hot tropical environment, but why ~37% higher thrust?
The Manik is shorter 900 mm vs 1262mm

The Manik Diamter is 360mm vs 305 mm. Does this mean bigger air intake?
I don't know the bypass ratio for Manik, but Williams is 1.0

As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.
Williams is 4.61. But is you see the picture the Williams looks quite complex leading to more cost.
Manik seems clean and all contained. So its cost could be quite less.

It has FADEC and integrated alternator vs. the extra add-ons for Williams.

Perhaps 5000km range missile intended to reach Chinese Eastern Coast. India seems to be developing 4.25kn, 3.75kn, 2.5kn, 1kn engines. Hmmmm.

ramana

Indranil, Thanks a lot. I am not concerned with mfg in India.
I am trying to discern Nirbhay design characteristics.

For example Manik engine thrust is 425/311 = 1.366 times more than the THawk Williams engine. Due to this its sfc is 0/78/0.68 is 1.14 times.
Very efficient compared to TH engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107

I know its hot tropical environment, but why ~37% higher thrust?
The Manik is shorter 900 mm vs 1262mm

The Manik Diamter is 360mm vs 305 mm. Does this mean bigger air intake?
I don't know the bypass ratio for Manik, but Williams is 1.0

As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.
Williams is 4.61. But is you see the picture the Williams looks quite complex leading to more cost.
Manik seems clean and all contained. So its cost could be quite less.

It has FADEC and integrated alternator vs. the extra add-ons for Williams.

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