Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby sohamn » 22 Apr 2021 13:08

RajaRudra wrote:
Suraj wrote:Which one ? Covaxin or Covishield ?

Covisheild patients are not yet eligible. The guideline is ~8 weeks from first shot. The earliest first shots for anyone other than HCW/FLWs were start of March. Don't push the system for your second Covishield dose now.

Covaxin second dose is 26-30 days. So far this month almost 5 million doses have been used. The monthly Covaxin production is 5 million doses. So that is probably fully used up now.

This 'shortage' in Covaxin is an artificial result of month 2 needing new first dose PLUS second dose quantities. It could have been avoided with strict instructions to only use Covaxin for 2nd dose patients in April, or at least to prioritize them. However part of the problem is that Covaxin production is being ramped up but the exact timeline is a little uncertain.


Covishield - Father - Second dose window period starts on 16th of April - Vaccine not available till today (being asked to check next day - every day)
Covaxin - Mother - Second dose window period - Vaccine not available

Update - Covishield - Today father turned away citing the second dose days pushed to 42 days.
Covaxin not available though.



Did you try government hospital? I believe at this moment you can only get vaccine at government hospitals.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby ritesh » 22 Apr 2021 13:10

RajaRudra wrote:Covishield - Father - Second dose window period starts on 16th of April - Vaccine not available till today (being asked to check next day - every day)
Covaxin - Mother - Second dose window period - Vaccine not available

Update - Covishield - Today father turned away citing the second dose days pushed to 42 days.
Covaxin not available though.
My father had his second dose of covishield yesterday. Same was case with my inlaws as well. Facility managed by BMC in mumbai western suburbs. The diff from first dose in march was huge crowding and time taken which was nearly 2 plus hrs. Last time it was much shorter duration.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby RajaRudra » 22 Apr 2021 13:23

sohamn wrote:
RajaRudra wrote:
Covishield - Father - Second dose window period starts on 16th of April - Vaccine not available till today (being asked to check next day - every day)
Covaxin - Mother - Second dose window period - Vaccine not available

Update - Covishield - Today father turned away citing the second dose days pushed to 42 days.
Covaxin not available though.



Did you try government hospital? I believe at this moment you can only get vaccine at government hospitals.


Yes Sir ji, My mother has Zinc Allergy and BP. So had gone for the biggest GH in the town.

Current status is -
Covaxin - no availability.
Covishield - 100 shots available per day. - 100 tokens given on morning. But almost 40 tokens got turned away as the 42 days has not yet over for them including my father. Hoping that 40 will not be wasted and will be administered to who ever comes.
In chennai, they are not waiting for the 42 days to complete and administering the second dose as and when 28 days got completed - this update from my relative.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby sanjayc » 22 Apr 2021 13:46

Following the GoI directives on the supply and distribution of COVAXIN®, all corporate and private hospital procurement enquiries for COVAXIN® can now be emailed to covid19vaccines@bharatbiotech.com

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2021 14:22

In big move to boost vaccine production, Finance Ministry has reportedly cleared credit upto Rs 4500 cr to @SerumInstIndia and @BharatBiotech


Government to provide Rs 4,500 crore booster to vaccine manufacturers for ramping up capacity

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Manish_P » 22 Apr 2021 18:02

Noob question to the Gurus.

The GoI has now approved and instructed private hospitals to go ahead and directly interact and co-ordinate with the Vaccine producers to get stocks.

Can and should the GoI in the near future (say in a few months) also give approval for private companies (like Tata, Reliance, HDFC, eg) to order stocks for running vaccination programs for their employees and their families?

IMVHO this could help boost vaccination numbers. Some of the well off Industries could also run aid programs for non-direct employees (could help build their brand images). Then there could be efforts by large and medium Retail associations etc who could do it for their members & their families


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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2021 18:57

Manish_P wrote:Noob question to the Gurus.

The GoI has now approved and instructed private hospitals to go ahead and directly interact and co-ordinate with the Vaccine producers to get stocks.

Can and should the GoI in the near future (say in a few months) also give approval for private companies (like Tata, Reliance, HDFC, eg) to order stocks for running vaccination programs for their employees and their families?

IMVHO this could help boost vaccination numbers. Some of the well off Industries could also run aid programs for non-direct employees (could help build their brand images). Then there could be efforts by large and medium Retail associations etc who could do it for their members & their families


read somewhere today that pfizer has said that they will only supply their vaccines through the via media of the GoI and that means they will accept orders for multiple hundreds of thousands of doses. That also implies that pfizer expects the Goi to build the cold chain and storage infrastructure for pfizer which the govt will simply not do

employees of tata etc being vaccinated via direct purchases sounds plausible but it means that these doses will come only from dealers and may cost 6-7 times what the company may charge because of the small numbers involved. For vaccine companies, 2-3 million doses may be a smallish order which they may not want to supply

Again, in such cases, who will be legally liable if there is any adverse fallout from such imported vaccinations.

Every private hospital will insist on passing on this liability to the GoI, capitalizing the profits while socializing the losses as is the common practice in India.

this govt will not be agreeable to accepting such vicarious liabilities.

let us see who imports and in what quantity. The storage and cold chain requirements are hyper stringent for vaccines like pfizer. who will invest and who will bell the cat.

people may end up paying 10-12K or more for one jab. If company is paying as some stoopide companies will, then the employees may take it otherwise, like the savvy customers Indians are, they will default to covishield or another close enough price matching vaccine.

This is not a govt for wokes to put pressure on.

such foolishness usually explodes fairly quickly in their wokey faces

further, no vaccine company will ever agree to allow the re export of their vaccines to other countries. so supply from India to pak by many pappi jhappi corporate hospital hospitals especially from the dilli region is out.

If caught doing such jehadi business, all vaccine companies will immediately cartelize to will ban these corporate hospitals for life
Last edited by chetak on 22 Apr 2021 19:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Uttam » 22 Apr 2021 19:04

https://news.abplive.com/news/india/corona-vaccination-phase-3-india-crisis-list-states-provide-vaccines-free-may-1st-1454197

List of states that have decided to provide vaccines for free:


Madhya Pradesh: The Shivraj Singh Chouhan government on Wednesday announced that all people above the age of 18 years will be offered COVID-19 vaccine free of cost in the state from May 1st.


Uttar Pradesh: Late Tuesday night after a cabinet meeting it was announced that Uttar Pradesh will offer the Covid vaccine free of cost from May 1st when the vaccination drive will begin for those over the age of 18.


Chhattisgarh: The Government of Chhattisgarh has announced that the Covid vaccine will be provided free of cost to people above 18 years of age from May 1st. On Wednesday itself, Chhattisgarh Chief Minister Bhupesh Baghel tweeted, "The state government will pay the corona vaccine to people above 18 years of age in Chhattisgarh. We will take all possible steps to protect the lives of our citizens. The Central Government is requested to ensure availability of adequate number of vaccines."


Assam: The government has ordered 1 crore doses of Covanxin from Bharat Biotech. On Tuesday, it was announced the Assam government will provide free Covid-19 vaccination for everybody between the age group of 18 to 45 years in the state.


Bihar: The state is already providing free vaccination is to the people in private hospital & government hospital. On Wednesday, Chief Minister Nitish Kumar tweeted, "The Bihar government will provide COVID-19 vaccine free of cost to all above 18 years of age in the state," in Hindi.


Kerala: The Kerala government will provide the COVID-19 vaccine free of cost to all those above 18 years of age, Chief Minister Pinarayi Vijayan said on Wednesday. Hoever, he asked the centre to give vaccines to the states for free as they are already under financial burden due to the coronavirus pandemic. "The state governments have been asked to buy vaccines. But states are already going through a financial burden because of COVID-19. Instead of pushing states to further economic crisis, the centre should give vaccines to the states for free," ANI quoted him as saying.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Mort Walker » 22 Apr 2021 19:12

Yesterday only 2.21 million vaccinations on account of Ram Navami holiday. May the victory of Lord Rama guide us out of the darkness of this evil Covid and of its conspirators.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2021 21:21

Image

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Manish_P » 22 Apr 2021 21:26

chetak wrote: ...
employees of tata etc being vaccinated via direct purchases sounds plausible but it means that these doses will come only from dealers and may cost 6-7 times what the company may charge because of the small numbers involved. For vaccine companies, 2-3 million doses may be a smallish order which they may not want to supply

Again, in such cases, who will be legally liable if there is any adverse fallout from such imported vaccinations.

..


No sir. what i meant was that companies will tie up with hospitals (who will have to co-ordinate with the manufacturers) for getting their employees and their families jabbed. Kind of like an HR initiative. Whether companies pay full, part or just do the push for vaccination is another matter.

Similarly large to medium retail associations of various trade sectors like for e.g. the huge apparel industry in surat or the auto accessories association of Gurgaon/Noida, the rotary club in various cities etc can tie-up (co-ordinate) with Hospitals for better organised vaccination of their associated people (workers, their families). Efforts like these by private industries might help the hospitals also to do back-ordering of the vaccines (and maybe reduce wastage in some cases). Just a thought,

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Apr 2021 22:05

Manish_P wrote:
chetak wrote: ...
employees of tata etc being vaccinated via direct purchases sounds plausible but it means that these doses will come only from dealers and may cost 6-7 times what the company may charge because of the small numbers involved. For vaccine companies, 2-3 million doses may be a smallish order which they may not want to supply

Again, in such cases, who will be legally liable if there is any adverse fallout from such imported vaccinations.

..


No sir. what i meant was that companies will tie up with hospitals (who will have to co-ordinate with the manufacturers) for getting their employees and their families jabbed. Kind of like an HR initiative. Whether companies pay full, part or just do the push for vaccination is another matter.

Similarly large to medium retail associations of various trade sectors like for e.g. the huge apparel industry in surat or the auto accessories association of Gurgaon/Noida, the rotary club in various cities etc can tie-up (co-ordinate) with Hospitals for better organised vaccination of their associated people (workers, their families). Efforts like these by private industries might help the hospitals also to do back-ordering of the vaccines (and maybe reduce wastage in some cases). Just a thought,


I have seen news reports of companies like Tata, Jindals, Infosys, Wipro etc following just such a strategy, and tying up with private hospitals such as Apollo to provide vaccination to their employees. They may organize special vaccination camps at their facilities where the hospital folks will come and do the vaccination.

I think all the large companies, Railways, Banks, PSUs etc will follow this route to get their employees vaccinated. Later on even the smaller factory owners and labor contractors may also get their labor vaccinated this way. The cost of vaccination will be much lower than the cost of missing production due to lack of labor.

It may sound callous, but the new policy will see the most productive part of the population get vaccinated first. This will help the economy recover faster from the second wave.

One jab of Covishield for an employee will likely cost a company Rs 800. So, for Rs 1,600 they can get an employee fully vaccinated. So, a big company like Tata will have to spend about Rs 16crores to get 100,000 employees vaccinated. This is chump change for them (also deductible from taxes), compared to the cost of lost production for a day.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2021 22:09

Manish_P wrote:
chetak wrote: ...
employees of tata etc being vaccinated via direct purchases sounds plausible but it means that these doses will come only from dealers and may cost 6-7 times what the company may charge because of the small numbers involved. For vaccine companies, 2-3 million doses may be a smallish order which they may not want to supply

Again, in such cases, who will be legally liable if there is any adverse fallout from such imported vaccinations.

..


No sir. what i meant was that companies will tie up with hospitals (who will have to co-ordinate with the manufacturers) for getting their employees and their families jabbed. Kind of like an HR initiative. Whether companies pay full, part or just do the push for vaccination is another matter.

Similarly large to medium retail associations of various trade sectors like for e.g. the huge apparel industry in surat or the auto accessories association of Gurgaon/Noida, the rotary club in various cities etc can tie-up (co-ordinate) with Hospitals for better organised vaccination of their associated people (workers, their families). Efforts like these by private industries might help the hospitals also to do back-ordering of the vaccines (and maybe reduce wastage in some cases). Just a thought,


Manish_P ji,

huge numbers for you and I will not even be considered as such by vaccine manufacturers. they will deal only with countries and states because only they can provide sufficient numbers to interest a manufacturer

for the kind of numbers that you speak about, some of the smaller vaccine dealers may show interest.

@Kakkaji saar,

the lower strata are not keen to take the vaccines at all.

we have offered to pay for all the family members of people working for us and all of them have refused. They will not take it even if given free.

most of them seem hale and hearty.

It could be herd immunity that may have kicked in
Last edited by chetak on 22 Apr 2021 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Apr 2021 22:12

India to get Russia's Sputnik V vaccine only by end-May

India will start receiving Russia's Sputnik V COVID-19 vaccine by end-May, its local distributor Dr. Reddy's Laboratories told Reuters on Thursday, a later than expected schedule that could slow the country's immunisation drive.

"We are targeting to have the first batches imported by (fiscal) Q1, and are trying our best to have them by end-May," a Dr. Reddy's spokesman told Reuters.

"Sputnik is going to be made in India in a few months. We expect the India-made vaccine to start being available from the second quarter of the fiscal (year)."

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Apr 2021 22:16

Karnataka to purchase 1 crore doses of Covishield vaccine at Rs 400 crore

The Karnataka government on Thursday decided to purchase 1 crore doses of Covishield vaccine at a cost of Rs 400 crore. "The Chief Minister has approved the purchase of 1 crore doses of Covishield vaccine at a cost of Rs 400 crores, in the first phase. This will be used for vaccination of persons between 18 to 44 years," his office said in a statement. Pune-based Serum Institute of India (SII) is the manufacturer of Covishield vaccine.

At the meeting, Health Minister K Sudhakar informed that the issue of shortage in oxygen supply and medicine in the city has been resolved, a CMO release said.

He also clarified that there was no shortage of vaccines, it said.

It was also decided at the meeting to strengthen fever clinics in the city, test those with fever and other symptoms, and to give them appropriate guidance, so that only those in need can be hospitalised.

The Chief Minister gave instructions to strengthen the helpline, aimed at immediately responding to issues faced by the people.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Dilbu » 22 Apr 2021 22:43

It has been declared that vaccine manufacturers will be selling directly only to state governments and private hospitals for now.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Atmavik » 22 Apr 2021 23:23

Atmavik wrote:there is definite shortage of vaccine in hyderabad. my parents second dose is delayed by a week and were told today to wait another two days for covisheild supply


my parents got their second dose yesterday. let's all encourage our parents to socially distance and get vaccinated. this summer is going to be tough but there is hope on the horizon with vaccine manufacturers scaling up.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby chetak » 22 Apr 2021 23:39

after a huge public outrage, some of these guys have come to their senses and are "allowing" oxygen carrying trucks to pass

In any other country, they would have all been shot by now.


One side of road at Singhu border to be cleared for oxygen supplies: Farmer leaders

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Uttam » 22 Apr 2021 23:57


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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Punjabi » 23 Apr 2021 00:02

Deleted.

Find another website for fancy conspiracy theories. We're in the midst of a crisis.
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Reason: CT never sleeps

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby sankum » 23 Apr 2021 00:05

I am 49 with excess catecholamines and auto immune response to viral infections were my joints swell up and become painful. I have damaged liver , pancreas and digestive system.
I took covisheild 1sr dose on April 13. My side effects were very strong . After 10 hours I got fever with shivering .I took crocin whose effect was off after 4 hours and for next 2 hour's time stood still before I took the second dose of crocin .
Some swelling in joints.small area of spine and increased swelling in pancreas . In 2 days relief and in 4 days complete relief. My intestine got dehydrated and escaped severe IBS attack.

Still I am ready to take second dose. When vaccine side-effects so strong what about the actual covid.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Kakkaji » 23 Apr 2021 00:54

chetak wrote:@Kakkaji saar,

the lower strata are not keen to take the vaccines at all.

we have offered to pay for all the family members of people working for us and all of them have refused. They will not take it even if given free.

most of them seem hale and hearty.

It could be herd immunity that may have kicked in


Chetak-Saheb:

I understand that the unorganized sector will be difficult. But I believe in the organized sector, the employers will be able to get their employees to get vaccinated. For example, I don't see many hotshot IT-Vity youngsters refusing vaccination if offered by their employer.

The organized sector may be smaller in number, but produces probably >50% of the GDP. It will take a couple of months to vaccinate all of them.

The remaining 'vaccine hesitants' will only come around if they see someone close to them hit by Corona.

I heard on a news channel that the PM has said that all citizens above 18 will be vaccinated by August 15th.

The GoI has the experience of countrywide vaccination to eliminate Polio and Small Pox. Once enough vaccines are available, they will get everyone vaccinated I am sure.


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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Atmavik » 23 Apr 2021 01:29

Punjabi wrote:Deleted



these are difficult times .. please dont make it worse by spreading such rumors. yes government is at fault and so are we as a people. scroll back a few pages to feb .. people had warned of this when they saw large crowds at cricket matches.
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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Raja » 23 Apr 2021 01:41

This is just a lack of foresight and utter failure at all levels, including the central government. Ambarji was posting here in this very thread that oxygen will be an issue for months now. Yet, we are in this situation.

We have made terrible mistakes. I hope we learn from them.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Karan M » 23 Apr 2021 01:52

sohamn wrote:
Karan M wrote:Guys - latest from Adar, claims supplies for Covishield aren't an issue now.

Link



He never claimed supplies for Covishield was an issue, show me one interview of his which indicated to this. Always, he said the supply issue constrained covovax production - which is significantly more superior to covishield.

Covishield is based on UK tech and doesn't require the kind of filters/bags that Novavax requires, being a US tech. He mainly got burned by the fire in his new factory and hence the delay in ramping up production of covishield. Also, lack of free capital blocked sourcing raw materials as well.


Just go up this very thread and see interviews from SII officials themselves that they needed US supplies.

Economist wrote:Yet this ambition is at risk from American export controls on raw materials and equipment. Production lines in India, making at least 160m doses of covid vaccine a month, will come to a halt in the coming weeks unless America supplies 37 critical items.

On April 16th, Adar Poonawalla, the chief executive of the Serum Institute of India (SII), the world’s biggest vaccine-maker, put out a tweet begging President Joe Biden to “lift the embargo of raw material exports out of the US...Your administration has the details”. Suresh Jadhav, SII’s executive director, says “we are absolutely concerned,” and that in the next four to six weeks the production of two vaccines will be affected: AstraZeneca’s, of which SII makes 100m doses a month, and Novavax’s, of which it expects to make 60m-70m doses a month. SII says it first alerted the American government to the impending problem two months ago.


I dont think you understand the issue. There is no UK tech or US tech in this business, beyond core IP regarding process and how the vaccine itself is designed and created. Supplies for consumables come from firms worldwide many of which are HQ in the US or with significant operations in the US and are hence subject to their laws and regulations. This is the same case in most industries where the US exercises disproportionate power thanks to its economic and military heft, backed up with laws which enable it to exercise that heft brazenly.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Karan M » 23 Apr 2021 01:56

Suraj wrote:
Karan M wrote:Guys - latest from Adar, claims supplies for Covishield aren't an issue now.

Link

It's never been an issue, in my view. AZ is not an American company. It is manufactured in US, EU, India and Japan at the very least. Japan has an AZ stockpile because their regulator has sat on their behinds and not approved it. With such a diverse production setup, one country cannot easily constrain it - SII can switch to another source.

The more egregious problem with US and AZ is that US produced - according to multiple references - over 50m doses of AZ and has not used it domestically, not approved it domestically, and refuses to export it to those who need it. DaiIchi started AZ production in Japan in March but the Japan govt has not approved it.


The articles I posted prior indicate it was an issue. We had a senior guy from SII making the case. IMO there have been efforts behind the scenes to secure the supplies likely with GOI assistance.

SII can't just switch suppliers easily. That comes with a regulatory and compliance burden which Adar will need Oxford/AZ's help for. BB can do this far more easily as it owns the IP, does R&D plus manufacturing and also, as it has ICMRs support, they are far more involved in the process enabling BB to cut the red tape. For instance, their choice of Adjuvant was because it too had secondary efforts in terms of immune response. When they changed it to a new one, they'd have to take that into consideration and also get the buy-in from regulatory authorities who cleared it based on the earlier supply chain.

Agree with you about wasting AZ doses. Stupid behavior.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Dilbu » 23 Apr 2021 02:02

India relaxed prematurely and everyone got back to usual chalta hai with news of succeful vaccine development. People started wearing masks around their necks and govt also started promoting the feeling that all is well. The main concerns were getting the economy back on track and the elections in five states. Somewhere in between the capacity building and planning for potential second wave got lost. Mega election rallies have not helped either.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Karan M » 23 Apr 2021 02:12

That may be the case, but post this event, I want NaMo to take a very very hard look at the bureaucratic decision making process esp the IAS, plus the MOHW and other chaps sitting on the top, who are supposed to actually anticipate and take decisions in time, pro-actively. But despite empowered groups set up last year, they just didn't do enough to anticipate the surge in time and setup processes including alerts in time.

There have been many mistakes made in our response, massive loss of life and public confidence. Things need to change. We have families with people dying in the streets. No hospital admissions without Govt contacts. The visuals I am seeing would give anyone PTSD. Imagine what the families are going through right now with limited resources.

The assistance effort has been led by individuals crowd-sourcing resources and putting them on twitter, FB etc. The response by the states and center to ease people's panic, get them access to basic information has been literally nothing to notice. We are all in this mess. BRF members have personally had God's grace to save them in such a mismanaged situation. Blaming the states and their vasooli admins is one thing, but the Center's late firefighting after NaMo returned from WB campaigning clearly shows they need him to push them. What's worse is everything we are seeing now is a replica of what we saw in Wave 1, and far worse. Instead of learning from it, we seem to have done precious little. I can only pray that even now Center's firefighting will hopefully stabilize supplies.

NaMo has skin in the game, he can lose elections, his freedom thanks to vindictive opponents. The bureaucracy needs to be made far more accountable, and empowered to take speedy decisions without waiting for a Modi or Yogi to send a directive from on high.

No fan of the PRINT and its agendra driven editor, but this rings true.
https://theprint.in/india/governance/to ... ve/643299/

New Delhi: With the central government caught napping as the country struggled with the deluge of Covid cases during the fresh wave of the pandemic, some of the country’s top bureaucrats got a dressing down from Prime Minister Narendra Modi for failing to handle the situation in a better way, government sources told ThePrint.

The officials were pulled up Saturday at a meeting chaired by Modi to review the status of preparedness to handle the Covid-19 pandemic.

...........
Government sources privy to what transpired at the meeting said an “upset” Modi told the senior officials how their efforts this time around has not been up to the mark. “He told the bureaucrats in as many words that they have not been as enthusiastic in responding to the crisis like last time,” said a source.

The PM told the officials that with the experience gained from handling the Covid pandemic situation last year, they should have been better prepared this time around, the sources said.


Keeping the names out. There would have been others at the meeting and its a general issue.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Atmavik » 23 Apr 2021 02:33

Karan M wrote:That may be the case, but post this event, I want NaMo to take a very very hard look at the bureaucratic decision making process esp the IAS, plus the MOHW and other chaps sitting on the top, who are supposed to actually anticipate and take decisions in time, pro-actively. But despite empowered groups set up last year, they just didn't do enough to anticipate the surge in time and setup processes including alerts in time.

There have been many mistakes made in our response, massive loss of life and public confidence. Things need to change.

NaMo has skin in the game, he can lose elections, his freedom thanks to vindictive opponents. The bureaucracy needs to be made far more accountable, and empowered to take speedy decisions without waiting for a Modi or Yogi to send a directive from on high.

No fan of the PRINT and its agendra driven editor, but this rings true.
https://theprint.in/india/governance/to ... ve/643299/

New Delhi: With the central government caught napping as the country struggled with the deluge of Covid cases during the fresh wave of the pandemic, some of the country’s top bureaucrats got a dressing down from Prime Minister Narendra Modi for failing to handle the situation in a better way, government sources told ThePrint.

The officials were pulled up Saturday at a meeting chaired by Modi to review the status of preparedness to handle the Covid-19 pandemic.

...........
Government sources privy to what transpired at the meeting said an “upset” Modi told the senior officials how their efforts this time around has not been up to the mark. “He told the bureaucrats in as many words that they have not been as enthusiastic in responding to the crisis like last time,” said a source.

The PM told the officials that with the experience gained from handling the Covid pandemic situation last year, they should have been better prepared this time around, the sources said.


Keeping the names out. There would have been others at the meeting and its a general issue.


he has been in power for 7 years now should have learnt by now. the buck stops with the leader. we dont criticise him here and I know he is far better than any other alternative but this constant blame shift on IAS/babu is not helping.


we as people need to take responsibility no one is listening to any advice. i was unable to convince family members to postpone weddings or other events. was told to shut up and believe in god or fate... sorry for the frustration but i have a few older family members critically ill and multiple team members rushing home to attend to ill parents. all we needed to do was wait a few months till vaccination ramped up.

hindsight is 20/20 but we should have approved sputnik in Jan and started manufacturing. we should be doing 6- 7 million a day instead of the current 3-4. hope people get some sense and stay home for few months show up for vaccination when supply improves.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby vijayk » 23 Apr 2021 02:51

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01059-y
Scientists puzzled over India wave

Karan M
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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Karan M » 23 Apr 2021 03:27

Atmavik wrote:
Karan M wrote:That may be the case, but post this event, I want NaMo to take a very very hard look at the bureaucratic decision making process esp the IAS, plus the MOHW and other chaps sitting on the top, who are supposed to actually anticipate and take decisions in time, pro-actively. But despite empowered groups set up last year, they just didn't do enough to anticipate the surge in time and setup processes including alerts in time.

There have been many mistakes made in our response, massive loss of life and public confidence. Things need to change.

NaMo has skin in the game, he can lose elections, his freedom thanks to vindictive opponents. The bureaucracy needs to be made far more accountable, and empowered to take speedy decisions without waiting for a Modi or Yogi to send a directive from on high.

No fan of the PRINT and its agendra driven editor, but this rings true.
https://theprint.in/india/governance/to ... ve/643299/



Keeping the names out. There would have been others at the meeting and its a general issue.


he has been in power for 7 years now should have learnt by now. the buck stops with the leader. we dont criticise him here and I know he is far better than any other alternative but this constant blame shift on IAS/babu is not helping.


we as people need to take responsibility no one is listening to any advice. i was unable to convince family members to postpone weddings or other events. was told to shut up and believe in god or fate... sorry for the frustration but i have a few older family members critically ill and multiple team members rushing home to attend to ill parents. all we needed to do was wait a few months till vaccination ramped up.

hindsight is 20/20 but we should have approved sputnik in Jan and started manufacturing. we should be doing 6- 7 million a day instead of the current 3-4. hope people get some sense and stay home for few months show up for vaccination when supply improves.


I dont think you understood my point. Politicians are there to set high level policy and intervene to facilitate and ease roadblocks.

Day to day administration is the task of IAS/babus. It is they who have to come up with recommendations, on how to execute policy, anticipate trouble, run back to the GOI for assistance.

They were given all these powers last year. Teams were set up. Does a CEO call up his local sales teams and tell them how to do their task? Or R&D? The policy is set at the top. The rest execute, change as necessary. We are seeing the entire rest of the system fail. And at the end of the day buck indeed stops with him. He will lose an election.

Can you tell me where the buck stops with these non elected administrators who want at the nth moment to rush abroad for everything, from weapons to oxygen? Did we even track this crisis as it was happening?

In early Feb itself, there were enough signs that pandemic fatigue had set in and people were flouting rules with immunity. Was any team tasked to evaluate this? In Dec itself, new variants of the virus were emerging. Did any babu sit up and say, oh shoot, what will be the 2nd or 3rd order consequences?

Does it take Modi to sit down and tell each and everyone of these folks on how to prevent a crisis from occurring and how to respond dynamically as it does. They have literally become the biggest stumbling block in the progress of the state. There are twenty year old kids crowd sourcing answers and helping strangers on social media and the GOI's topmost babus are nowhere to be seen in terms of even taking pvt sector assistance to handle such basic things.

It does seem that decades of being in a privileged shell, with one phone call to some fellow babu getting them access to whatever they wish has insulated them from how the rest of India struggles and manages. The answer is not to respond with angry soliloquies about poverty but to figure out innovative ways to address pressing issues which kids have done, but these guys can't. The worst part is the culture where they'd simply waltz into any new admin, whereas we'd lose an elected leader who at least did whatever he could to change things. I just don't get how blase they are.

Before somebody brings in other countries and how bad things were there in the surge, I'll just say this, please don't. India is far more capable industrially than most and has world class management and industrial expertise. We choose to ignore all of that, and leave decision making to an archaic structure which doesnt take decisions on its own, needs political directives to do so, and what's worse still can't pull things together after the top guy has lambasted them.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby sohamn » 23 Apr 2021 04:25

Karan M wrote:
Atmavik wrote:
he has been in power for 7 years now should have learnt by now. the buck stops with the leader. we dont criticise him here and I know he is far better than any other alternative but this constant blame shift on IAS/babu is not helping.


we as people need to take responsibility no one is listening to any advice. i was unable to convince family members to postpone weddings or other events. was told to shut up and believe in god or fate... sorry for the frustration but i have a few older family members critically ill and multiple team members rushing home to attend to ill parents. all we needed to do was wait a few months till vaccination ramped up.

hindsight is 20/20 but we should have approved sputnik in Jan and started manufacturing. we should be doing 6- 7 million a day instead of the current 3-4. hope people get some sense and stay home for few months show up for vaccination when supply improves.


I dont think you understood my point. Politicians are there to set high level policy and intervene to facilitate and ease roadblocks.

Day to day administration is the task of IAS/babus. It is they who have to come up with recommendations, on how to execute policy, anticipate trouble, run back to the GOI for assistance.

They were given all these powers last year. Teams were set up. Does a CEO call up his local sales teams and tell them how to do their task? Or R&D? The policy is set at the top. The rest execute, change as necessary. We are seeing the entire rest of the system fail. And at the end of the day buck indeed stops with him. He will lose an election.

Can you tell me where the buck stops with these non elected administrators who want at the nth moment to rush abroad for everything, from weapons to oxygen? Did we even track this crisis as it was happening?

In early Feb itself, there were enough signs that pandemic fatigue had set in and people were flouting rules with immunity. Was any team tasked to evaluate this? In Dec itself, new variants of the virus were emerging. Did any babu sit up and say, oh shoot, what will be the 2nd or 3rd order consequences?

Does it take Modi to sit down and tell each and everyone of these folks on how to prevent a crisis from occurring and how to respond dynamically as it does. They have literally become the biggest stumbling block in the progress of the state. There are twenty year old kids crowd sourcing answers and helping strangers on social media and the GOI's topmost babus are nowhere to be seen in terms of even taking pvt sector assistance to handle such basic things.

It does seem that decades of being in a privileged shell, with one phone call to some fellow babu getting them access to whatever they wish has insulated them from how the rest of India struggles and manages. The answer is not to respond with angry soliloquies about poverty but to figure out innovative ways to address pressing issues which kids have done, but these guys can't. The worst part is the culture where they'd simply waltz into any new admin, whereas we'd lose an elected leader who at least did whatever he could to change things. I just don't get how blase they are.

Before somebody brings in other countries and how bad things were there in the surge, I'll just say this, please don't. India is far more capable industrially than most and has world class management and industrial expertise. We choose to ignore all of that, and leave decision making to an archaic structure which doesnt take decisions on its own, needs political directives to do so, and what's worse still can't pull things together after the top guy has lambasted them.



As a Modi Bhakt, I am really disappointed with all the inaction during the lull period of COVID. Since, I give him, and not the babu's, credit for all the successes he accomplished - I have to also hold him accountable for the failure. This fiasco was avoidable as we had 6 months to prepare but we didn't. Modi didn't help because he was having huge rallies until last week where none of the BJP honchos were wearing masks, in Uttarakhand his government was also not holding anyone accountable for the Kumbh Mela debacle. As a leader, when we noticed that babu's were doing nothing then he should have taken them to task but nothing of that sort happened. Until a month back his administration including Dr. Harsh Vardhan was openly claiming that COVID in india was over and we defeated covid when no other country could.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby sohamn » 23 Apr 2021 04:38

Atmavik wrote:
hindsight is 20/20 but we should have approved sputnik in Jan and started manufacturing. we should be doing 6- 7 million a day instead of the current 3-4. hope people get some sense and stay home for few months show up for vaccination when supply improves.


The Sputnik drama was inexplicable, Dr. Reddy's completed the bridging trials in Feb but their approval was constantly denied until wave 2 hit hard. Also, RDIF had contracts inked with Hetero in December but again GoI didn't ask them to stockpile. Similar F***up with Pzifer, they did trials in 5 countries around the world and had real-life data with US / Israel / UK and EU launch but GoI kept insisting on bridging trials and not allowing for indemnity.

It's really sad to see a few thousand Indians die every day and these people didn't have to die. They could have been saved because God gave us 6 months to prepare for this wave, but we did nothing at all.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Suraj » 23 Apr 2021 05:32

sohamn wrote:GoI kept insisting on bridging trials and not allowing for indemnity.

Which is still the right thing to do. When one makes comments in hindsight, always normalize it against the factors that weighed upon the decisions in that situation.

* Sputnik back in Dec/Jan was as much, if not much more controversial than Covaxin. Sample: Sputnik V vaccine rushed out to wary Russians. Yes it's the BBC, and their attitudes vs Russia are known. But that also means Govt had no clear idea what was going on, unlike Covaxin, for which ICMR could offer expert guidance. So they did the right thing - asked for phase 3 trials.
* Normal Phase 3 trials take 7-12 months. During Covid, they were compressed to 1-2 months. Technically the 'phase 3' data everyone's releasing is just phase 3a, with repeated updates as they track the patients longer. Companies fund the trials.
* Covishield Phase 3 trials were requested in late Sept 2020, given clearance in Oct, volunteers recruited by Nov and trials done by mid Dec 2020. AZ separately funded EU phase.3 trials during the same timeframe, giving multiple sets of data.
* Sputnik was asked to complete trials as requested, and they did so by end Feb 2021. Completion was announced in March 2021 and got EUA in early April.
* Pfizer was asked to do trials in November, at the same time AZ was doing phase 3 trials in India. They declined - they demanded orders and EUA before discussing trials. They spent 3 months (Dec-Feb) trying to argue that they are special. They are not.

The DCGI's job is to maintain a careful risk/reward balance. In Dec/Jan pretty much no one had a significant record of vaccine use yet. It paid to be cautious. In April, multiple candidates have a longer known recorded with updated EUAs. Therefore Govt liberalized the approval process. It's important to not presume conditions in Dec/Jan were the same as in Apr. There is FAR more real world data now than back then.

Cautious and organized regulatory process matters. It ensures institutionally driven stability in the process. Let's look at what happened in EU - they rushed in with AZ, there was the blood clot scandal however 'real' it was, pause, reuse, withdrawal, some swearing by it and some swearing at it. Australia altogether dropped its vaccination plans based on AZ. Japan has been producing AZ vaccines since end Feb but not a single dose used because they haven't approved it after the scandal in EU.

Other side of the ocean, J&J which only last year got done with its massive asbestos-in-talc lawsuit, got embroiled in another bloot clot scandal associated with its vaccine, allegedly because Pfizer tried to undermine it. May or may not be true, but the very fact that anyone alleges such things causes loss of confidence in the regulatory process.

The point is not whether or not AZ/JJ blood clot risk is minimal. The point is that such a dysfunctional process is extremely harmful to ensuring public confidence in the whole process. It is FAR harder to rebuild credibility than cautiously go about it properly the first time out. Otherwise it sets everything back.

Is that what we want ? 3-4 different companies allegedly trying to undermine each other in the vaccine sweepstakes like the mess we saw in UK/EU and US ? The west is a horrible example here - they played too heavy on the risk side of the risk/reward balance and paid for it with multiple vaccine rollout pauses and reexaminations. Imagine the Indian headlines if the same happened with Indian vaccines.

People need to stop with the 'if my aunty had ba11s back in January...' arguments. Go do it elsewhere if you must. It's just noise here.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Srutayus » 23 Apr 2021 05:50

Which is still the right thing to do. When one makes comments in hindsight, always normalize it against the factors that weighed upon the decisions in that situation.

Exactly. A vaccine that is more deadly than the virus is definitely not what you want. All the vaccines were rushed, understandably. But the Russian one has had the most skepticism across the spectrum. Also, many things about the coronavirus will only make some sort of sense in hindsight years from now. Retrospective rationality seems to make sense only in retrospect.

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby vijayk » 23 Apr 2021 06:25

Guys! People are dying in 3 days after detection or got +ve.

May be symptoms are not showing till all the lungs are infected.

Question to the doctors

Is there prophylactic or something like ivermectin or weaker steroid that can give to people to prevent infections?

Can we explore to use the nasal vaccine clinical trial to larger population?

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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby vijayk » 23 Apr 2021 06:32


Srutayus
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Re: Wuhan Coronavirus Resource Thread

Postby Srutayus » 23 Apr 2021 06:33

Guys! People are dying in 3 days after detection or got +ve.

May be symptoms are not showing till all the lungs are infected.

Question to the doctors
Is there prophylactic or something like ivermectin or weaker steroid that can give to people to prevent infections?


Unfortunately, the doctors will not have immediate answers. Given the evidence based nature of medicine, given the unforecatability of emergent outcomes in complex systems, they will have to learn with experience.
The adaptability of this virus is frightening and confounding.


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